Were CW's good in mod 3? Sure. On par with other classes? Not quite.
How is a class good if it's not as good as other classes? Not being good makes you bad. I mean hell he wasn't even "on par". CW was freaking Bogie-ville.
Mod3 the only class a GWF couldn't steam-roll over was HR, and lord knows they lost sleep trying to nerf them because of it.
Mod3 the only class a CW could beat reliably was a DC or GF, his fellow gimps.
Seriously guys, mod3 was last week. We don't remember that far? Top pages were full of GWF/HR/TR and for good reason as anyone that played a single Dom match during that time could tell you. Very few DC, CW, or GFs.
I say do what you know works man. Forget the nay sayers! It seems like you have a good understanding of the actual important aspects of what to do in pvp. I have people try and trash talk me too because I use weird set ups. Yet, since I know exactly how they are going to play their build I can easily make them look silly if they don't out gear me by like 4000 something crazy and have super artifacts.
Once people realize how awesome M.L. actually is I think we will see a surge of it in domination matches.
I agree, they should get rid of all prones in PvP. Make them all stuns. Prone is too effective, and I agree that no one should have it in PvP. The animation to stand back up is in of itself a way too long period of not being able to do anything. I was actually surprised because I thought that they were making all prones stuns, but then whoopsie doodle I am still getting proned by Warlocks :P
This is the main reason I solo queue. I don't care if I get out geared as there isn't anything I can do about that in the immediate future, that is a task for time. I also don't care if my team has some under geared people in it. I like playing my character with it's weird build that is effective in its own way - contributing to the actual objective of the match.
Solo queue gives you the freedom to not give a ****. It also usually ends up helping you get better at your class because you are forced in to a carry position for your team. Those matches where it feels like you need to be 3 places at once because your team always stays in a cluster together, or they spread all apart but never fight on a node.
And I also agree that no one should have any damage that isn't able to be mitigated in some way. If any power should have this it shouldn't be an effect that acts as a free bonus cast of damage. It should be Daily's only if they want to keep penetration skills in the game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Agreed. But I actually do think CWs were good in mod3... No not the pug ones, the ones that actually served a purpose and didn't try to go home alone. The actually good CWs in premades would know that a perma is there or a HR or a GWF and would get a buddy to stop fighting for a sec and help him clear because CWs were key to clearing all 3. So what if they weren't as good at 1vs1 then the rest of the classes.. I mean did you really expect them to be? If Cryptic gave each class the best 1vs1 capabilities then where would any specific class stand out? Now CWs are the best at 1vs1 and the best at control.
No doubt CW is OP now. Mod3 CW had potential to be good support, and was good for support in isolated cases, but overall died too fast and didn't have enough control. The premades I ran into didn't run with them usually, which shows they really weren't key to anything.
What they did run with was a hell of a lot of supposedly not OP GWFs.
The main support they provided was CC, and a GWF brought that (more of it, actually) along with burst along with tankiness.
The single isolated instance where a CW was better as support than a GWF was against an HR to catch him with icy rays.
No doubt CW is OP now. Mod3 CW had potential to be good support, and was good for support in isolated cases, but overall died too fast and didn't have enough control. The premades I ran into didn't run with them usually, which shows they really weren't key to anything.
What they did run with was a hell of a lot of supposedly not OP GWFs.
The main support they provided was CC, and a GWF brought that (more of it, actually) along with burst along with tankiness.
The single isolated instance where a CW was better as support than a GWF was against an HR to catch him with icy rays.
But if you add the old CW with the now classes is has a great synergy
But if you add the old CW with the now classes is has a great synergy
I still think Mod3 CW would need the new orb of imposition and the new shield to potentially be a top class in a support capacity.
But honestly it's all academic. There's no way they're going to revert a bunch of feats and change damage values on abilities to get back to where CWs were.
No doubt CW is OP now. Mod3 CW had potential to be good support, and was good for support in isolated cases, but overall died too fast and didn't have enough control. The premades I ran into didn't run with them usually, which shows they really weren't key to anything.
What they did run with was a hell of a lot of supposedly not OP GWFs.
The main support they provided was CC, and a GWF brought that (more of it, actually) along with burst along with tankiness.
This is too true, but the main thing that made them so strong was the prones. And it is mainly because of the time to kill. A CW can be an Invaluable asset, but GWFs back then with their prones and longevity, mobility and burst damage capability was a safer way to go if all you are worried about is winning as easy as you possibly can. Which is what it boils down to really. People want to win, they find out what wins, they do it. If something allows them to win slightly easier, then the previous method is now "useless".
Truthfully this is what leads to so many nerfs. So many people using the same thing which guarantees them easier wins. Everyone else see's and learns what is being done and how much easier and effective it is. Now all of a sudden all you see is this new easy way to win and people call bull**** on it. A lot. over. and over. and over. Anyone remember old Tenebrous Enchants (*shudders*) All of the "elite" players had these stacked in spades. Why? Because it allowed them to win easier and more importantly, faster. Also why TR's kept getting hit so hard with nerfs. People saw it was easy as pie, and then people got sick of it's phooey and TR's got nerfed over and over. (I am not saying TR is easy mode, but there have been some builds and enchants and other things that definitely make it easier)
Now I have been seeing Groups with 2 CWs in it again, and I am seeing Less TR's and GWFs. And weirdly enough more Clerics. I might be playing at weird hours though lol.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
In the meanwhile...yesterday got 2 games : one against 2 cws melting people in 4 secs with well known new superpowers, and using shield+broken blue glyph on top of that.
Another game was against 2 cws melting people while a blue dragon glyph untouchable DC protected them.
Which ones?? Reg Sent GWF Who would die as soon as they got prone or mod 3 GWF by standing in his/her range attack but kille-able by anyone but DC-class?? Hope you dont meant those GWF builds...
From that list, i would remove mod 3 CW, as they were as balanced as GWF-class were and, maybe, GF, due they could bring GWF-players down alone due the prone chain they had.
Who the hell do you think your fooling? I main a TR and I can honestly say I was well served by a vast majority of over stuffed GWFs not having anything resembling skill. Against a GWF that actually HAD timing, anticipation, precision, I stood no chance at all. On my GWF, the one I made M2 and never put much effort into, I could beat most TRs by virtue of just knowing how THEY play, without having to play a GWF well. Anyone saying that M2 and M3 GWF was "balanced" is saying that passively redonk toughness and nigh insta-cast aoe CC takes "skill". The GFs, the TRs, and the CWs who did well in M3 pvp. These were people who put forth tremendous effort into their chosen class and were playing at very high skill levels.
To somehow say that HR and GWF benefits which let them compete at the highest levels PASSIVELY, was balanced is sheer fallacy. Even if, at the highest skill level the very best CWs could hold there their own in a 1v1 against the very best GWFs, so what. A cw that gets caught at range or from behind by another player while facing a GWF is INSTANTLY dead. Meanwhile the GWF can just unstoppable out or sprint away unless he is caught by multiple prones AND heavy burst.
I came into M4 with the first impression that CWs were OP and that GWF was nerfed too hard. Given some time, and playing TR,CW, and GWF I can honestly say things might actually be fairly balanced. If it were me playing my TR against me playing my CW, my CW would lose, probably pretty badly. If it were me playing my GWF against my CW, my CW would still lose, very badly. If it were my GWF playing against my TR, my TR would lose for sure.
Now this is due to a large degree that I know limitations of a TR like the back of my hand. In a group fight, a TR can make any battle essentially a 1v1 to some degree, and that's a huge advantage. Here's the thing, people are crying hard over CW now, but it has been my own experience that they are not as OP as people think they are. Just today, I faced 2 cws at the same time in a dominion match on my rogue, both were at my estimate at the 15k+ level, one of them even had a bile. They did not suck either, nor were they top level, I killed BOTH of them, working as a team against me, repeatedly. On my GWF, who is pretty much pug level in gear, I found any time I caught a CW in a 1v1, I stomped them hard.
The GWF player-base has been ill served by having it so easy for so long. Reflexes dulled, being tough was taken for granted, and having massive hitboxes and the well-assured chains was thought to be on par. Not so anymore, and they are facing players that have been honing their skills with a handicap to boot.
I have been saying this for a long time, perma-stealth has been viewed negatively for such a long time and a lot of people want it gone. But do you honestly think that top-level TRs wouldn't own even HARDER if permastealth was gone and the rest of their class mechanics were brought in balance?
Now GWFs actually NEED skill, like they never needed it before. Rather than admit their class was OP, they say "We got nerfed so hard, and class X got buffed too much!". My opinion is that CW is a bit too powerful right now, and some slight adjustment is warranted, but that when your talking at the highest levels of skill, TR and GWF has the advantage against CW RIGHT NOW, much less if they get toned down. Keep in mind that my opinion is based off of what I have seen and experienced so far, from the perspectives of all three class and is limited to how they are specced. For instance, I have not used or been hit by the new repel yet, and that could be a deciding factor. Things are likely to shift quite a bit, cause for the PVP, pretty much the only class that's the same is TR. For DC........ there is no pvp lol.
When CW is brought in line It's going to be VERY interesting. Because, there will be no class that's passively easy to play, which also rewards to the same degree that GWF/HR did circa M3. GF is pretty strong, passively, but they are not the killers that GWF/HR once were. On my rogue I can fight a GF 1v1 all day long and not kill him, but the reverse is also true. Having spent such a large amount of time fighting GWFs that had better speed and virtually the same skills, it is cake for me to pretty much avoid ALL GF damage. Just today I dueled a equally geared GF on my GWF for 7 minutes straight, twitch sprinting through his prone attempts and sometimes landing attacks on his back. It was neck and neck and I lost, narrowly, at the end.
I for one am loving the M4 GWF. This may seem to be trolling and a bad joke but it is completely sincere. I am seeing the skill in play like I never saw it before. The new sprint is unbelievable, and quite addictive I might add. Also, has no one noticed that damage was actually buffed quite a bit? To me, GWF is now the class that takes the most skill to play, and with which skill rewards. It is now the class that has my full attention in PVP. M4 may have made me a rabid GWF fan, and I might actually invest some time into gearing my GWF up. Combat with a GWF is so frenetic and chaotic that it gets my blood pumping and my hands are shaking when they leave the keyboard. There are three things that attract me to pvp gameplay. The first is fantasy themed combat. The second is speed. The third is an underdog class that is hard to play but frighteningly effective if used to it's maximum potential. So, if your looking for the easy route, why don't you go play the now "OP" CW, and I'll be busy owning you on my TR and GWF .
Don't hold your breath. They're 'fixing' the wrong CW ability and only one of the Dragon enchants.
Nothing new. Devs like to create broken builds and gear, then try to fix the wrong stuff. But perhaps things will improve even if just a little bit, while we wait for the devs to wake up and fix storm spell and the rest of the glyphs...
i tried out my gwf ~ 16 k perfect vorpal and rank 7's and my cw - 12kgs the old gg set(no tenacity), rank 5's and no weapon/armor enchants,
they both felt about equal, though it was easier to win as cw
Pretty much...current state is this. A 12k no enchants non-pvp CW just needs to put up shield on tab, point ray of frost at the enemy and watch it melt. Some of them use broken glyphs as topping just to show how skill-less they can get.
GWF more fun to play than in module 1-2-3 imho. More challenging. Just hope we get rid of this oversized ranged DPS fest PvP is right now.
Well I took the time to write this in another thread but the mod hammer hit it so..
" In all honesty I feel my current Destroyer is in a good spot and Im getting more and more accustomed to the 'sprint' playstyle. If Im not focused by at least 2 people from the get-go I feel comfortable with my damage/survivability/control. In 1x1 situations its a 50/50 chance for victory or defeat. The perma sprint is a great kill-steal build so apologies to folks who got their target finished by a rushing GWF. My quite tanky Destro does feel squishier but thats normal with other classes having their dmg buffed.
The only real issue I see in PVP is the CW for known reasons. The HRs can be scary but they were scary last mod as well, the GFs are very strong if played right but on both my fighters Ive yet to see a GF in PVP played right. The TRs can actually be outmaneuvered by my GWF and killed or simply outlasted by my GF. The DCs are more immortal now because I lost my unlimited gap closer + prone combo which allowed me to end even a very tanky DC, but a good team will always take the DC out fast and hard, if the team is bad there is nothing one can do anyway. The SWs are an easy prey for both my GWF and GF but thats normal I guess since they are mostly undergeared at this point.
So, CWs need a tone down ( some rly good suggestions already made by Tod the former mod among others ) and the dragon glyphs need to be fixed asap. Thats it. "
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Anyone saying that M2 and M3 GWF was "balanced" is saying that passively redonk toughness and nigh insta-cast aoe CC takes "skill".
To somehow say that HR and GWF benefits which let them compete at the highest levels PASSIVELY, was balanced is sheer fallacy. Even if, at the highest skill level the very best CWs could hold there their own in a 1v1 against the very best GWFs, so what. A cw that gets caught at range or from behind by another player while facing a GWF is INSTANTLY dead. Meanwhile the GWF can just unstoppable out or sprint away unless he is caught by multiple prones AND heavy burst.
I came into M4 with the first impression that CWs were OP and that GWF was nerfed too hard. Given some time, and playing TR,CW, and GWF I can honestly say things might actually be fairly balanced. If it were me playing my TR against me playing my CW, my CW would lose, probably pretty badly. If it were me playing my GWF against my CW, my CW would still lose, very badly. If it were my GWF playing against my TR, my TR would lose for sure.
You said it! There are just a lot of angry GWFs who dominated PvP without any real skill that can't handle having to apply real skill in PvP with the GWF balancing in Mod 4. Sad . . . Let them cry. From what I have seen from intelligent, mature posters, the GWF is pretty balanced now. Finally!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
You said it! There are just a lot of angry GWFs who dominated PvP without any real skill that can't handle having to apply real skill in PvP with the GWF balancing in Mod 4. Sad . . . Let them cry. From what I have seen from intelligent, mature posters, the GWF is pretty balanced now. Finally!
Sorry but you fail to make your point, you do manage a nice contradiction however. So a GWF dominating without skill is bad but CW dominating with auto procs from 80 yards away is somehow good when essentially its the same. If a class has an overwhelming advantage then its bad period. Regardless which class it is
PS: and in case you missed it not every GWF is complaining about our overnerf, we are however not happy with how stupid CWs are at the moment. And we are not the only ones
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Sorry but you fail to make your point, you do manage a nice contradiction however. So a GWF dominating without skill is bad but CW dominating with auto procs from 80 yards away is somehow good when essentially its the same. If a class has an overwhelming advantage then its bad period. Regardless which class it is
there is a difference. wizards can still be dealt with, but gwf's used to be GODS.
it might be overwhelming for some of you gwf's, but i don't have many issues with it as a rogue. only thing was the high damage which is being toned down i think?
there is a difference. wizards can still be dealt with, but gwf's used to be GODS.
it might be overwhelming for some of you gwf's, but i don't have many issues with it as a rogue. only thing was the high damage which is being toned down i think?
Agreed. Although I think CWs are overpowered, once you stun them, they are still an easy kill.
there is a difference. wizards can still be dealt with, but gwf's used to be GODS.
it might be overwhelming for some of you gwf's, but i don't have many issues with it as a rogue. only thing was the high damage which is being toned down i think?
Of course you're not having issues as a stealth TR. Does it mean that cws melting any build in 3-4 seconds, no matter how tanky, just pointing ray of frost, is OK? You know, unless you're stealth class, guys who can melt anyone through all dr and defense in few seconds using only an at-will ray of death, tend to be a problem. Expecially if They stack in a team and are joined by a glyph abUSER tank DC that can kill you in few seconds if you just dare to attack him. Or if the CW uses the broken glyphs top.
Must be ok lol.
PS: gwfs were never able to kill tanks in 4 seconds using an at-will. They've been op but nothing like cws and glyph are right now. Plus, gwfs too were not hard to cancel. Experienced pvpers stated many times how gwfs were easy to cancel in premades. All you needed were prones and focused DPS.
What we have right now are basically like cheats, again, unless you think that a ray of death killing any toon no matter how tanky,in 4 seconds, or an enchant killing the enemy in seconds if he attacks you, are working as intended.
Of course you're not having issues as a stealth TR. Does it mean that cws melting any build in 3-4 seconds, no matter how tanky, just pointing ray of frost, is OK? You know, unless you're stealth class, guys who can melt anyone through all dr and defense in few seconds using only an at-will ray of death, tend to be a problem. Expecially if They stack in a team and are joined by a glyph abUSER tank DC that can kill you in few seconds if you just dare to attack him. Or if the CW uses the broken glyphs top.
Combat TR has stealth too. And a Smart combat TR knows when to be in stealth and when not to. CW's on my TR are still easy -IF I initiate the attack or dodge their initial choke/cc and go stealth quick.
I am a WK . I can still deal with most everything. But of course Master Infilitrators will say CWs are still easy. You have ITC to deal with CC's. And can move at blistering speeds while you are invis.
Anyway there are fixes on the way for Assailing force which should being CWs more in Line.
All that is still needed is to reduce the proc chance of StormSpell, and perhaps reduce the amount of speedy procs that RoF gives. After those changes, CWs will be good, but not so easy and OP seeming.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Combat TR has stealth too. And a Smart combat TR knows when to be in stealth and when not to. CW's on my TR are still easy -IF I initiate the attack or dodge their initial choke/cc and go stealth quick.
I am a WK . I can still deal with most everything. But of course Master Infilitrators will say CWs are still easy. You have ITC to deal with CC's. And can move at blistering speeds while you are invis.
Anyway there are fixes on the way for Assailing force which should being CWs more in Line.
All that is still needed is to reduce the proc chance of StormSpell, and perhaps reduce the amount of speedy procs that RoF gives. After those changes, CWs will be good, but not so easy and OP seeming.
there is a difference. wizards can still be dealt with, but gwf's used to be GODS.
it might be overwhelming for some of you gwf's, but i don't have many issues with it as a rogue. only thing was the high damage which is being toned down i think?
Sure there is a difference. One is a melee frontline fighter, the other is a spell caster with range, heavy control and dodge immunity ( along with a shield now ) - dont forget the roles those two classes fill when comparing their prowess. Being tough and able to "take a lickin and keep on tickin" is to be expected from the GWF. Its true the devs gave the class way too much but they also took alot away with mod 4. That being said my own GWF has equal chance to defeat his CW or TR opponent in a 1x1 scenario but then again my GWF is quite geared as well.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
GWFs are in a much better place over all. You guys shoul dbe happy that all of the FotM kids are abandoning your class and going to a different one. You will notice the quality of your interactions here become much more positive and helpful.
GWF requires some skill now, like it should. Now if only all the FotM kids will get the hell away from my CW class I will be happy. Most of them left my TR class and I am beyond happy for that.
Don't play a class and gear it out when you know it is (or the build is)OP. Doing that is begging for regrets. Because when the fixes come - you end up with what we have now. Lots of people that don't understand how to play start crying instead of trying to adapt.
You know if you try something and it doesn't work, you should definitely keep trying the same. exact. thing. every. time.
CW's will not be this powerful for much longer. So it would be better to just rethink your builds and play style. Time to get out there and test stuff out. There is no one on the forums to tell you exactly what to do now. Even though I feel that Pando and Myself have already given a lot of good tips and hints of how to play a Destro GWF already.
When trying to deal with a difficult class. It is more about understanding how and what they are doing rather then trying to get the easiest way to play your own class.
Familiarize yourself with these CW rotations (because FotM people will all use the same exact build and rotation) Then understand their weaknesses and the timing of their rotations that make them vulnerable.
Honestly GWF should be one of the last people complaining about CW. You have so much control Immunity to use at a whim it is kind of nuts.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Combat TR has stealth too. And a Smart combat TR knows when to be in stealth and when not to. CW's on my TR are still easy -IF I initiate the attack or dodge their initial choke/cc and go stealth quick.
I am a WK . I can still deal with most everything. But of course Master Infilitrators will say CWs are still easy. You have ITC to deal with CC's. And can move at blistering speeds while you are invis.
we all use stealth as it is our class mechanic and the best way to initiate a fight, although i don't slot stealth refills. initiating fights against a wizard isn't hard due to the distance they like to be from all the action. at that range, u can easily go into stealth without them noticing and daze them.
but u r right. ITC does make me biased, but i simply can't imagine a combat rogue without it and not use stealth refills. then again, the death of gwf prones can potentially make me extremely tanky through deflect even without ITC so idk. i may or may not need it now.
GWFs are in a much better place over all. You guys shoul dbe happy that all of the FotM kids are abandoning your class and going to a different one. You will notice the quality of your interactions here become much more positive and helpful.
GWF requires some skill now, like it should. Now if only all the FotM kids will get the hell away from my CW class I will be happy. Most of them left my TR class and I am beyond happy for that.
Don't play a class and gear it out when you know it is (or the build is)OP. Doing that is begging for regrets. Because when the fixes come - you end up with what we have now. Lots of people that don't understand how to play start crying instead of trying to adapt.
You know if you try something and it doesn't work, you should definitely keep trying the same. exact. thing. every. time.
CW's will not be this powerful for much longer. So it would be better to just rethink your builds and play style. Time to get out there and test stuff out. There is no one on the forums to tell you exactly what to do now. Even though I feel that Pando and Myself have already given a lot of good tips and hints of how to play a Destro GWF already.
When trying to deal with a difficult class. It is more about understanding how and what they are doing rather then trying to get the easiest way to play your own class.
Familiarize yourself with these CW rotations (because FotM people will all use the same exact build and rotation) Then understand their weaknesses and the timing of their rotations that make them vulnerable.
Honestly GWF should be one of the last people complaining about CW. You have so much control Immunity to use at a whim it is kind of nuts.
In a previous post I said it myself. Only if my GWF gets focused by 2+ people from the getgo I have trouble and fall or flee. In a one on one I can run circles around a wizard and even outmaneuver a TR/HR by deploying my IBS on the spot where their dodge roll will end. Having near perma sprint uptime can be sweet. The bad taste many folks have in their mouth is from being focused by 2 wizards at the moment they step on the node which leads to insta death.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Does it mean that cws melting any build in 3-4 seconds, no matter how tanky, just pointing ray of frost, is OK?
I can assure you this is very far from the truth. A rank 9-10 CW with about 16-17.9k GS depending on gear, perfect vorpal and the Eots/SS, good rotation etc. will take a considerable amount of time to kill a good sentinel. Killing is by no means guaranteed - it is a very close and good fight that will last considerably more than a few seconds.
Put these people on a node, as 1vs1s should be fought, and even with the old Assailant, a CW will be at a disadvantage.
There are builds and builds. GWFs have the option to tank through the CW DPS, there's no question about it.
I am a Whisper Knife and honestly not having ITC isn't even a little deal. With the high deflect that is exactly correct. You should play
around with something else on your bar for a bit, you could end up being very surprised.
Bark Shield , High deflect , High Crit and High Life Steal have been working really well for me compared to Mod 3. The changes have help to alleviate some of the problems WK were having.
100% agree that the main problem is when you are getting focused by multiple CW's. Just as it was last mod when you had 2 Burping GWFs focus you. Being locked down 100% of the time until you die should never even be a possibility. EVEN IF you are getting double focused.
They just need to implement a CC Break loop based on %of your HP damage you take while CC'ed. I hope they do. It will easily solve many problems.
Or simply a loop that runs If you are currently CC'ed you can not be CC'ed, so there is no overlapping chain CC. There will always be a moment that you can Sprint or dodge in between the end of one CC and the beginning of another. Make it take a little bit of skill from either player is all I am saying.
Perma sprint up time is so nice and fun to use. I am happy that other GWF's have already found some of the new sweetness that is available to them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I can assure you this is very far from the truth. A rank 9-10 CW with about 16-17.9k GS depending on gear, perfect vorpal and the Eots/SS, good rotation etc. will take a considerable amount of time to kill a good sentinel. Killing is by no means guaranteed - it is a very close and good fight that will last considerably more than a few seconds.
Put these people on a node, as 1vs1s should be fought, and even with the old Assailant, a CW will be at a disadvantage.
There are builds and builds. GWFs have the option to tank through the CW DPS, there's no question about it.
A GWF Sentinel needs to hit a target to max his defensive cabability and he wont do that while dangling like a rag doll in midair. Really, without max deflect a Sent isnt all that much tougher than a tanky Destroyer while his damage is by far lower. And what about GFs ? They get CCed thru their shield and killed in seconds even with 40K HP and 45-50% DR ? It has happened even to my 17.3K GF.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Comments
How is a class good if it's not as good as other classes? Not being good makes you bad. I mean hell he wasn't even "on par". CW was freaking Bogie-ville.
Mod3 the only class a GWF couldn't steam-roll over was HR, and lord knows they lost sleep trying to nerf them because of it.
Mod3 the only class a CW could beat reliably was a DC or GF, his fellow gimps.
Seriously guys, mod3 was last week. We don't remember that far? Top pages were full of GWF/HR/TR and for good reason as anyone that played a single Dom match during that time could tell you. Very few DC, CW, or GFs.
I say do what you know works man. Forget the nay sayers! It seems like you have a good understanding of the actual important aspects of what to do in pvp. I have people try and trash talk me too because I use weird set ups. Yet, since I know exactly how they are going to play their build I can easily make them look silly if they don't out gear me by like 4000 something crazy and have super artifacts.
Once people realize how awesome M.L. actually is I think we will see a surge of it in domination matches.
I agree, they should get rid of all prones in PvP. Make them all stuns. Prone is too effective, and I agree that no one should have it in PvP. The animation to stand back up is in of itself a way too long period of not being able to do anything. I was actually surprised because I thought that they were making all prones stuns, but then whoopsie doodle I am still getting proned by Warlocks :P
This is the main reason I solo queue. I don't care if I get out geared as there isn't anything I can do about that in the immediate future, that is a task for time. I also don't care if my team has some under geared people in it. I like playing my character with it's weird build that is effective in its own way - contributing to the actual objective of the match.
Solo queue gives you the freedom to not give a ****. It also usually ends up helping you get better at your class because you are forced in to a carry position for your team. Those matches where it feels like you need to be 3 places at once because your team always stays in a cluster together, or they spread all apart but never fight on a node.
And I also agree that no one should have any damage that isn't able to be mitigated in some way. If any power should have this it shouldn't be an effect that acts as a free bonus cast of damage. It should be Daily's only if they want to keep penetration skills in the game.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
No doubt CW is OP now. Mod3 CW had potential to be good support, and was good for support in isolated cases, but overall died too fast and didn't have enough control. The premades I ran into didn't run with them usually, which shows they really weren't key to anything.
What they did run with was a hell of a lot of supposedly not OP GWFs.
The main support they provided was CC, and a GWF brought that (more of it, actually) along with burst along with tankiness.
The single isolated instance where a CW was better as support than a GWF was against an HR to catch him with icy rays.
But if you add the old CW with the now classes is has a great synergy
I still think Mod3 CW would need the new orb of imposition and the new shield to potentially be a top class in a support capacity.
But honestly it's all academic. There's no way they're going to revert a bunch of feats and change damage values on abilities to get back to where CWs were.
This is too true, but the main thing that made them so strong was the prones. And it is mainly because of the time to kill. A CW can be an Invaluable asset, but GWFs back then with their prones and longevity, mobility and burst damage capability was a safer way to go if all you are worried about is winning as easy as you possibly can. Which is what it boils down to really. People want to win, they find out what wins, they do it. If something allows them to win slightly easier, then the previous method is now "useless".
Truthfully this is what leads to so many nerfs. So many people using the same thing which guarantees them easier wins. Everyone else see's and learns what is being done and how much easier and effective it is. Now all of a sudden all you see is this new easy way to win and people call bull**** on it. A lot. over. and over. and over. Anyone remember old Tenebrous Enchants (*shudders*) All of the "elite" players had these stacked in spades. Why? Because it allowed them to win easier and more importantly, faster. Also why TR's kept getting hit so hard with nerfs. People saw it was easy as pie, and then people got sick of it's phooey and TR's got nerfed over and over. (I am not saying TR is easy mode, but there have been some builds and enchants and other things that definitely make it easier)
Now I have been seeing Groups with 2 CWs in it again, and I am seeing Less TR's and GWFs. And weirdly enough more Clerics. I might be playing at weird hours though lol.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Another game was against 2 cws melting people while a blue dragon glyph untouchable DC protected them.
Mod4 pvp ftw. Hope some stuff get fixed today...
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Who the hell do you think your fooling? I main a TR and I can honestly say I was well served by a vast majority of over stuffed GWFs not having anything resembling skill. Against a GWF that actually HAD timing, anticipation, precision, I stood no chance at all. On my GWF, the one I made M2 and never put much effort into, I could beat most TRs by virtue of just knowing how THEY play, without having to play a GWF well. Anyone saying that M2 and M3 GWF was "balanced" is saying that passively redonk toughness and nigh insta-cast aoe CC takes "skill". The GFs, the TRs, and the CWs who did well in M3 pvp. These were people who put forth tremendous effort into their chosen class and were playing at very high skill levels.
To somehow say that HR and GWF benefits which let them compete at the highest levels PASSIVELY, was balanced is sheer fallacy. Even if, at the highest skill level the very best CWs could hold there their own in a 1v1 against the very best GWFs, so what. A cw that gets caught at range or from behind by another player while facing a GWF is INSTANTLY dead. Meanwhile the GWF can just unstoppable out or sprint away unless he is caught by multiple prones AND heavy burst.
I came into M4 with the first impression that CWs were OP and that GWF was nerfed too hard. Given some time, and playing TR,CW, and GWF I can honestly say things might actually be fairly balanced. If it were me playing my TR against me playing my CW, my CW would lose, probably pretty badly. If it were me playing my GWF against my CW, my CW would still lose, very badly. If it were my GWF playing against my TR, my TR would lose for sure.
Now this is due to a large degree that I know limitations of a TR like the back of my hand. In a group fight, a TR can make any battle essentially a 1v1 to some degree, and that's a huge advantage. Here's the thing, people are crying hard over CW now, but it has been my own experience that they are not as OP as people think they are. Just today, I faced 2 cws at the same time in a dominion match on my rogue, both were at my estimate at the 15k+ level, one of them even had a bile. They did not suck either, nor were they top level, I killed BOTH of them, working as a team against me, repeatedly. On my GWF, who is pretty much pug level in gear, I found any time I caught a CW in a 1v1, I stomped them hard.
The GWF player-base has been ill served by having it so easy for so long. Reflexes dulled, being tough was taken for granted, and having massive hitboxes and the well-assured chains was thought to be on par. Not so anymore, and they are facing players that have been honing their skills with a handicap to boot.
I have been saying this for a long time, perma-stealth has been viewed negatively for such a long time and a lot of people want it gone. But do you honestly think that top-level TRs wouldn't own even HARDER if permastealth was gone and the rest of their class mechanics were brought in balance?
Now GWFs actually NEED skill, like they never needed it before. Rather than admit their class was OP, they say "We got nerfed so hard, and class X got buffed too much!". My opinion is that CW is a bit too powerful right now, and some slight adjustment is warranted, but that when your talking at the highest levels of skill, TR and GWF has the advantage against CW RIGHT NOW, much less if they get toned down. Keep in mind that my opinion is based off of what I have seen and experienced so far, from the perspectives of all three class and is limited to how they are specced. For instance, I have not used or been hit by the new repel yet, and that could be a deciding factor. Things are likely to shift quite a bit, cause for the PVP, pretty much the only class that's the same is TR. For DC........ there is no pvp lol.
When CW is brought in line It's going to be VERY interesting. Because, there will be no class that's passively easy to play, which also rewards to the same degree that GWF/HR did circa M3. GF is pretty strong, passively, but they are not the killers that GWF/HR once were. On my rogue I can fight a GF 1v1 all day long and not kill him, but the reverse is also true. Having spent such a large amount of time fighting GWFs that had better speed and virtually the same skills, it is cake for me to pretty much avoid ALL GF damage. Just today I dueled a equally geared GF on my GWF for 7 minutes straight, twitch sprinting through his prone attempts and sometimes landing attacks on his back. It was neck and neck and I lost, narrowly, at the end.
I for one am loving the M4 GWF. This may seem to be trolling and a bad joke but it is completely sincere. I am seeing the skill in play like I never saw it before. The new sprint is unbelievable, and quite addictive I might add. Also, has no one noticed that damage was actually buffed quite a bit? To me, GWF is now the class that takes the most skill to play, and with which skill rewards. It is now the class that has my full attention in PVP. M4 may have made me a rabid GWF fan, and I might actually invest some time into gearing my GWF up. Combat with a GWF is so frenetic and chaotic that it gets my blood pumping and my hands are shaking when they leave the keyboard. There are three things that attract me to pvp gameplay. The first is fantasy themed combat. The second is speed. The third is an underdog class that is hard to play but frighteningly effective if used to it's maximum potential. So, if your looking for the easy route, why don't you go play the now "OP" CW, and I'll be busy owning you on my TR and GWF
they both felt about equal, though it was easier to win as cw
Nothing new. Devs like to create broken builds and gear, then try to fix the wrong stuff. But perhaps things will improve even if just a little bit, while we wait for the devs to wake up and fix storm spell and the rest of the glyphs...
Pretty much...current state is this. A 12k no enchants non-pvp CW just needs to put up shield on tab, point ray of frost at the enemy and watch it melt. Some of them use broken glyphs as topping just to show how skill-less they can get.
GWF more fun to play than in module 1-2-3 imho. More challenging. Just hope we get rid of this oversized ranged DPS fest PvP is right now.
" In all honesty I feel my current Destroyer is in a good spot and Im getting more and more accustomed to the 'sprint' playstyle. If Im not focused by at least 2 people from the get-go I feel comfortable with my damage/survivability/control. In 1x1 situations its a 50/50 chance for victory or defeat. The perma sprint is a great kill-steal build so apologies to folks who got their target finished by a rushing GWF. My quite tanky Destro does feel squishier but thats normal with other classes having their dmg buffed.
The only real issue I see in PVP is the CW for known reasons. The HRs can be scary but they were scary last mod as well, the GFs are very strong if played right but on both my fighters Ive yet to see a GF in PVP played right. The TRs can actually be outmaneuvered by my GWF and killed or simply outlasted by my GF. The DCs are more immortal now because I lost my unlimited gap closer + prone combo which allowed me to end even a very tanky DC, but a good team will always take the DC out fast and hard, if the team is bad there is nothing one can do anyway. The SWs are an easy prey for both my GWF and GF but thats normal I guess since they are mostly undergeared at this point.
So, CWs need a tone down ( some rly good suggestions already made by Tod the former mod among others ) and the dragon glyphs need to be fixed asap. Thats it. "
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You said it! There are just a lot of angry GWFs who dominated PvP without any real skill that can't handle having to apply real skill in PvP with the GWF balancing in Mod 4. Sad . . . Let them cry. From what I have seen from intelligent, mature posters, the GWF is pretty balanced now. Finally!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
so you didnt see the dps? everyone is complaining about cw dps, we dont care about your cc, we care about how op your dps, guess your blind
Sorry but you fail to make your point, you do manage a nice contradiction however. So a GWF dominating without skill is bad but CW dominating with auto procs from 80 yards away is somehow good when essentially its the same. If a class has an overwhelming advantage then its bad period. Regardless which class it is
PS: and in case you missed it not every GWF is complaining about our overnerf, we are however not happy with how stupid CWs are at the moment. And we are not the only ones
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
there is a difference. wizards can still be dealt with, but gwf's used to be GODS.
it might be overwhelming for some of you gwf's, but i don't have many issues with it as a rogue. only thing was the high damage which is being toned down i think?
Agreed. Although I think CWs are overpowered, once you stun them, they are still an easy kill.
GWFs and HRs in module 3 are tanky as well
Of course you're not having issues as a stealth TR. Does it mean that cws melting any build in 3-4 seconds, no matter how tanky, just pointing ray of frost, is OK? You know, unless you're stealth class, guys who can melt anyone through all dr and defense in few seconds using only an at-will ray of death, tend to be a problem. Expecially if They stack in a team and are joined by a glyph abUSER tank DC that can kill you in few seconds if you just dare to attack him. Or if the CW uses the broken glyphs top.
Must be ok lol.
PS: gwfs were never able to kill tanks in 4 seconds using an at-will. They've been op but nothing like cws and glyph are right now. Plus, gwfs too were not hard to cancel. Experienced pvpers stated many times how gwfs were easy to cancel in premades. All you needed were prones and focused DPS.
What we have right now are basically like cheats, again, unless you think that a ray of death killing any toon no matter how tanky,in 4 seconds, or an enchant killing the enemy in seconds if he attacks you, are working as intended.
psst, i'm a combat rogue
I am a WK . I can still deal with most everything. But of course Master Infilitrators will say CWs are still easy. You have ITC to deal with CC's. And can move at blistering speeds while you are invis.
Anyway there are fixes on the way for Assailing force which should being CWs more in Line.
All that is still needed is to reduce the proc chance of StormSpell, and perhaps reduce the amount of speedy procs that RoF gives. After those changes, CWs will be good, but not so easy and OP seeming.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Thanks. Pretty much what i think.
Sure there is a difference. One is a melee frontline fighter, the other is a spell caster with range, heavy control and dodge immunity ( along with a shield now ) - dont forget the roles those two classes fill when comparing their prowess. Being tough and able to "take a lickin and keep on tickin" is to be expected from the GWF. Its true the devs gave the class way too much but they also took alot away with mod 4. That being said my own GWF has equal chance to defeat his CW or TR opponent in a 1x1 scenario but then again my GWF is quite geared as well.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
GWF requires some skill now, like it should. Now if only all the FotM kids will get the hell away from my CW class I will be happy. Most of them left my TR class and I am beyond happy for that.
Don't play a class and gear it out when you know it is (or the build is)OP. Doing that is begging for regrets. Because when the fixes come - you end up with what we have now. Lots of people that don't understand how to play start crying instead of trying to adapt.
You know if you try something and it doesn't work, you should definitely keep trying the same. exact. thing. every. time.
CW's will not be this powerful for much longer. So it would be better to just rethink your builds and play style. Time to get out there and test stuff out. There is no one on the forums to tell you exactly what to do now. Even though I feel that Pando and Myself have already given a lot of good tips and hints of how to play a Destro GWF already.
When trying to deal with a difficult class. It is more about understanding how and what they are doing rather then trying to get the easiest way to play your own class.
Familiarize yourself with these CW rotations (because FotM people will all use the same exact build and rotation) Then understand their weaknesses and the timing of their rotations that make them vulnerable.
Honestly GWF should be one of the last people complaining about CW. You have so much control Immunity to use at a whim it is kind of nuts.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
we all use stealth as it is our class mechanic and the best way to initiate a fight, although i don't slot stealth refills. initiating fights against a wizard isn't hard due to the distance they like to be from all the action. at that range, u can easily go into stealth without them noticing and daze them.
but u r right. ITC does make me biased, but i simply can't imagine a combat rogue without it and not use stealth refills. then again, the death of gwf prones can potentially make me extremely tanky through deflect even without ITC so idk. i may or may not need it now.
In a previous post I said it myself. Only if my GWF gets focused by 2+ people from the getgo I have trouble and fall or flee. In a one on one I can run circles around a wizard and even outmaneuver a TR/HR by deploying my IBS on the spot where their dodge roll will end. Having near perma sprint uptime can be sweet. The bad taste many folks have in their mouth is from being focused by 2 wizards at the moment they step on the node which leads to insta death.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I can assure you this is very far from the truth. A rank 9-10 CW with about 16-17.9k GS depending on gear, perfect vorpal and the Eots/SS, good rotation etc. will take a considerable amount of time to kill a good sentinel. Killing is by no means guaranteed - it is a very close and good fight that will last considerably more than a few seconds.
Put these people on a node, as 1vs1s should be fought, and even with the old Assailant, a CW will be at a disadvantage.
There are builds and builds. GWFs have the option to tank through the CW DPS, there's no question about it.
around with something else on your bar for a bit, you could end up being very surprised.
Bark Shield , High deflect , High Crit and High Life Steal have been working really well for me compared to Mod 3. The changes have help to alleviate some of the problems WK were having.
100% agree that the main problem is when you are getting focused by multiple CW's. Just as it was last mod when you had 2 Burping GWFs focus you. Being locked down 100% of the time until you die should never even be a possibility. EVEN IF you are getting double focused.
They just need to implement a CC Break loop based on %of your HP damage you take while CC'ed. I hope they do. It will easily solve many problems.
Or simply a loop that runs If you are currently CC'ed you can not be CC'ed, so there is no overlapping chain CC. There will always be a moment that you can Sprint or dodge in between the end of one CC and the beginning of another. Make it take a little bit of skill from either player is all I am saying.
Perma sprint up time is so nice and fun to use. I am happy that other GWF's have already found some of the new sweetness that is available to them.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
A GWF Sentinel needs to hit a target to max his defensive cabability and he wont do that while dangling like a rag doll in midair. Really, without max deflect a Sent isnt all that much tougher than a tanky Destroyer while his damage is by far lower. And what about GFs ? They get CCed thru their shield and killed in seconds even with 40K HP and 45-50% DR ? It has happened even to my 17.3K GF.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.