This problem is ok in 1v1 but in domination a cw can now hide behind teammates and get triple kills like crazy, you cant even get near them.
If freeze can go through shield then fine but it shouldn't do that much dmg, if they want the dmg though then we need to be cc immune, they shouldn't have both.
I'm a 17k gf with 47k hp 21% tenacity, 25% deflect chance and 46% dr and I died in 5 seconds from 1 cw after i was frozen....
I honestly don't care if cw are stronger at all, I don't want to be the best class but being the "tank" class and dying that quick isn't right.
This problem is ok in 1v1 but in domination a cw can now hide behind teammates and get triple kills like crazy, you cant even get near them.
If freeze can go through shield then fine but it shouldn't do that much dmg, if they want the dmg though then we need to be cc immune, they shouldn't have both.
I'm a 17k gf with 47k hp 21% tenacity, 25% deflect chance and 46% dr and I died in 5 seconds from 1 cw after i was frozen....
I honestly don't care if cw are stronger at all, I don't want to be the best class but being the "tank" class and dying that quick isn't right.
Precisely the reason why I'm anticipating the tactical shift of TRs might change from the "solo back-node infiltration" role, to the "participating in team-level fights and harassing CWs" role. If previously TRs were expected to just leave everything behind, go straight to the back node and lure enemy players, in mod4 I think the TR's capability to harass CWs are just too important.
CWs are strong now. They don't just go down like they used to. But every moment the CWs spend teleporting around, using PBAoEs, trying to avoid/flush out the TR.. is a moment where your teammates are not bombarded by the CW.
When both sides crawl up to the mid node and face-off, the TRs still the best bet of keeping enemy CW in check. It's not a necessity when your side has stronger and more capable CWs, but if not, it seems like just leaving them back and going to the back node will result in your team being decimated, no matter how well you do in their back node.
In a way, I'm seeing possible hints of "team play" becoming more important than ever. GWFs and GFs are now really more vulnerable to multiple ranged attackers.
Before mod4, if a certain side had a clear advantage in the GWF/GFs, that side would either decimate the opposition in the node circle and then drop the ranged classes in the rear lines, or conversely, powerful GWFs would just blow past the close opposition and just stick to the rear targets first. Both were relatively much stronger than just HRs or CWs to take down quickly.
But now, ranged attacks and CCs are superbly powerful. If you ignore them your fighters are decimated from the bombardment. Even if you try to just blow past close enemies and get CWs or HRs first, they would deal strong CCs and deterr you from the attempt, and as a result the fighers would just be easily overwhelmed and brought down.
Obviously, (IMO) in the new-meta, you need TRs with you in the great big mid-fight. They need to go past and hit CWs and HRs from behind. Not necessarily kill them outright, but at least bother them enough to gop dodging and teleporting around, using AoE powers nearby rather than targeting your fightersd from afar, and generally feel really uncomfortable to target your teammates blindly.
...in a sense, my opinion is this actually mighyt be something better, not necessarily "messed up" just because its different from what we've been used to.
I think we need to give it a bit more time to see how this flows.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Precisely the reason why I'm anticipating the tactical shift of TRs might change from the "solo back-node infiltration" role, to the "participating in team-level fights and harassing CWs" role. If previously TRs were expected to just leave everything behind, go straight to the back node and lure enemy players, in mod4 I think the TR's capability to harass CWs are just too important.
CWs are strong now. They don't just go down like they used to. But every moment the CWs spend teleporting around, using PBAoEs, trying to avoid/flush out the TR.. is a moment where your teammates are not bombarded by the CW.
When both sides crawl up to the mid node and face-off, the TRs still the best bet of keeping enemy CW in check. It's not a necessity when your side has stronger and more capable CWs, but if not, it seems like just leaving them back and going to the back node will result in your team being decimated, no matter how well you do in their back node.
I still think TRs are the best for back-capping. They just don't have the burst to really effectively harass. I've stood and took duelist's flurries while finishing someone off on my CW because I knew it wouldn't kill me. Maybe other CWs would immediately dodge but I don't know.
The main thing that determines if I win or lose is if there's a good perma on my team or the opponent's team that's backcapping.
I still think TRs are the best for back-capping. They just don't have the burst to really effectively harass. I've stood and took duelist's flurries while finishing someone off on my CW because I knew it wouldn't kill me. Maybe other CWs would immediately dodge but I don't know.
That's because you're assuming it'd be a classic perma/semi-perma build that would be messing with your CW -- the kind that is optimized towards node-contesting, with at most an occasional DF attempt being any sort of threat, with the only other attack option being maybe an occasional LB attempt that takes 20 seconds in between, or flimsy knife damage from CoS.
I'm kinda thinking that the shift in role would also warrant a shift in main skill of choice. DF is the defining characteristic of the pre-mod4 semi-perma, but with this mod4 I've gave up on the WK path, moved over to MI that is centered around the use of Dazing Strike -- the TRs only real CC that has acceptable CC duration. DF would whittle you down with succession of mini-damage ticks, but with the right feats Dazing Strike lands around 8 to 9k damage per pop from stealth, against undergeared opponents easily over 10k.
From stealth it fires off in around a second, its recharge time with high INT is around 7~8 seconds. A CW that chooses to underestimate what the TR can do just stands still firing away, is actually the juciest prey for this different build/tactic.
Clearly this is not what the old semi-permas are built for, but mine is. I'm built for Dazing Strike and Gloaming Cut, and a hit of Dazing Strike guarantees additional GC + Shadow Strike as a combo. Assuming crits on both DaS and GC, that's around 8k damage + 5k from GC "normal crit(over 50% HP), and the TR goes back into stealth. When you're hit with the first DS you spend the first 4 seconds or so under daze, and then around 4 secs later the combo from the TR is ready to fire off again. You be hit with this 2 or 3 times, and from that time on GC's damage increase is ready to fire off.
No CW is going to just stand still and take that damage and being CCd repeatedly for 4~5 seconds. He has to move away or try to avoid the TR somehow, and when he does that, my team is free from the threat of the CW. If he tries to bombard my teammates by standing still and firing attacks again, then he's in for another shot of DaS to be CCd again.
The 'traditional' perma/semi-permas won't do this since they don't risk the dangers of unprotected melee attacks, since they are accustomed to fighting more than one enemy on the small node, usually the enemy is aware of your presence and moving around defensively, making it too difficult to land melee attacks... not to mention the risk of trying a stealth-blowing melee attack is much too great under these circumstances.
However, if the circumstances are different, and if the TR focuses on enemies that are preoccupied with somethin else, then you don't necessarily have to stick with DF. Landing attacks like DaS becomes heckuva lot easier -- different roles, different circumstances, possibly different powers and tactics for use.
...
I'm not speaking of as this is the new-meta for TRs. I'm just laying out an example of how a different approach with different role/objectives in mind, could possibly hold new ideas for becoming a deterrant for the CW on the battlefield... and perhaps, this role as the "wizard deterrant" might possibly become more important
The main thing that determines if I win or lose is if there's a good perma on my team or the opponent's team that's backcapping.
Could be. Hence, the need to watch more closely where these lines of changes takes us to.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
in mod4 I think the TR's capability to harass CWs are just too important.
CWs are strong now. They don't just go down like they used to. But every moment the CWs spend teleporting around, using PBAoEs, trying to avoid/flush out the TR.. is a moment where your teammates are not bombarded by the CW.
It won't work.
Smart CWs have 40K+ HP, will ignore your attacks completely while focusing whatever is the priority target. When all the people that are more of a priority than you are down, you gonna be next, stealth won't help you much.
If the CW has a DC, situation even worse for you.
Also a CW can cast their stuff while on the move, with very short periods of remaining in one place. Actually, only bad CWs are stuck in a place trying to nuke. The good ones move all the time, and remain still only when there's no threat.
I still prefer the safety from range, and recommend everybody gets a DC artifact. I always have full AP with that! When I see the CW, I open Whirlwind of Blades from Stealth, immediately pop DC Artifact followed by Impact Shot (stun), GC/Impact Shots till charges are spent procing Action Rush. In less than 6 seconds I have another Whirlwind of Blades to finish him off. It's activation is too fast it can't be dodged or even mitigated!
When using Profound Set, I crit 15K WoB + 9K Bleeds (Brutal Wounds). x2
Impact Shot, average 4K each (3 charges + 2 from stealth) x5
The rotation deals up to 68K; 40K non crit
So yeh...CW has to be very lucky to survive me. But can we go back to the GF for a minute? Frankly, I'm more concerned about them lol
Yesterday, I faught a GF whose shield bar never dropped, at all. Not even diminished by a fraction. And he's obviously blocking. What's up with that? Graphic glitch?
I still prefer the safety from range, and recommend everybody gets a DC artifact. I always have full AP with that! When I see the CW, I open Whirlwind of Blades from Stealth, immediately pop DC Artifact followed by Impact Shot (stun), GC/Impact Shots till charges are spent procing Action Rush. In less than 6 seconds I have another Whirlwind of Blades to finish him off. It's activation is too fast it can't be dodged or even mitigated!
When using Profound Set, I crit 15K WoB + 9K Bleeds (Brutal Wounds). x2
Impact Shot, average 4K each (3 charges + 2 from stealth) x5
The rotation deals up to 68K; 40K non crit
So yeh...CW has to be very lucky to survive me. But can we go back to the GF for a minute? Frankly, I'm more concerned about them lol
Yesterday, I faught a GF whose shield bar never dropped, at all. Not even diminished by a fraction. And he's obviously blocking. What's up with that? Graphic glitch?
is no longer possible to see the meter, now is just because we gfs also we could not see the force of any kind
Smart CWs have 40K+ HP, will ignore your attacks completely while focusing whatever is the priority target. When all the people that are more of a priority than you are down, you gonna be next, stealth won't help you much.
Doesn't matter if he has 40k or 400k. A CC is a CC. Dazed = no attack, no focus, no nuthin'.
If the CW has a DC, situation even worse for you.
Think "team". If there's another player as an another variable, then there's no rule or something which states you must take care of it alone. The point is not taking out a CW. It's simply bothering him from what he wants to unleash upon your friends. CCs have a way of making that stop.
Also a CW can cast their stuff while on the move, with very short periods of remaining in one place. Actually, only bad CWs are stuck in a place trying to nuke. The good ones move all the time, and remain still only when there's no threat.
When they move all the time, they're not casting. Almost every action self-roots you in NW. When they are casting, they are stopping. It basically depends on how well you can catch that moment.
Besides, if a CW is just squirming around and randomly teleporting between every few attacks, that itself is a huge loss in the amount of damage they deal in the given amount of time. The max potential comes in moments of "free-dealing", when the ranged classes are comfortably placed behind the formation, free to cast everything without intervals to pause and stop. If they can't do that because they fear an attack coming from a TR, and have to move around, that by itself is a success.
If someone's confident with his 40k HP, then woop-dee-too, easier target to CC around continuously while the rest of the team takes out the other players.
Trust me. There is no competent CW in the game that keeps free-dealing once he learns there's a TR around and poking him. The more he moves defensively, the better. He's not doing anything while he squirms.
Again, it's not about taking him down alone. It's about bothering him from doing his job.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Doesn't matter if he has 40k or 400k. A CC is a CC. Dazed = no attack, no focus, no nuthin'.
Think "team". If there's another player as an another variable, then there's no rule or something which states you must take care of it alone. The point is not taking out a CW. It's simply bothering him from what he wants to unleash upon your friends. CCs have a way of making that stop.
When they move all the time, they're not casting. Almost every action self-roots you in NW. When they are casting, they are stopping. It basically depends on how well you can catch that moment.
Besides, if a CW is just squirming around and randomly teleporting between every few attacks, that itself is a huge loss in the amount of damage they deal in the given amount of time. The max potential comes in moments of "free-dealing", when the ranged classes are comfortably placed behind the formation, free to cast everything without intervals to pause and stop. If they can't do that because they fear an attack coming from a TR, and have to move around, that by itself is a success.
If someone's confident with his 40k HP, then woop-dee-too, easier target to CC around continuously while the rest of the team takes out the other players.
Trust me. There is no competent CW in the game that keeps free-dealing once he learns there's a TR around and poking him. The more he moves defensively, the better. He's not doing anything while he squirms.
Again, it's not about taking him down alone. It's about bothering him from doing his job.
spot on again tr is still way op
40k hp cw with shield is just not enough for survival and no dps
they need to fix that blue dragon so only cw can use them on anything but cw
When they move all the time, they're not casting. Almost every action self-roots you in NW. When they are casting, they are stopping. It basically depends on how well you can catch that moment. .
Nah.
Ray of Frost can be cast from the move. RoE has extremely short cast time. You only stop for Icy Rays/Entangle/Chill Strike/Ice Knife basically, and you do that in about 1.5-2 seconds.
Good CWs do their stuff on the move. If you see CWs rooted on a place trying to freecast, they are baddies.
Yeah I could see it working if you use dazing strike. That's still dodgable though, but if you land it you could cause a lot of problems. The reason the perma/DS harassment doesn't work on me is because there's no CC involved.
One thing's for sure to me at least that without HRs being what they were, TRs are in really good shape.
Yeah I could see it working if you use dazing strike. That's still dodgable though, but if you land it you could cause a lot of problems. The reason the perma/DS harassment doesn't work on me is because there's no CC involved.
One thing's for sure to me at least that without HRs being what they were, TRs are in really good shape.
shhhhhhhhhhh
dont go around telling people to use dazing strike
its broken op
Comments
If freeze can go through shield then fine but it shouldn't do that much dmg, if they want the dmg though then we need to be cc immune, they shouldn't have both.
I'm a 17k gf with 47k hp 21% tenacity, 25% deflect chance and 46% dr and I died in 5 seconds from 1 cw after i was frozen....
I honestly don't care if cw are stronger at all, I don't want to be the best class but being the "tank" class and dying that quick isn't right.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Precisely the reason why I'm anticipating the tactical shift of TRs might change from the "solo back-node infiltration" role, to the "participating in team-level fights and harassing CWs" role. If previously TRs were expected to just leave everything behind, go straight to the back node and lure enemy players, in mod4 I think the TR's capability to harass CWs are just too important.
CWs are strong now. They don't just go down like they used to. But every moment the CWs spend teleporting around, using PBAoEs, trying to avoid/flush out the TR.. is a moment where your teammates are not bombarded by the CW.
When both sides crawl up to the mid node and face-off, the TRs still the best bet of keeping enemy CW in check. It's not a necessity when your side has stronger and more capable CWs, but if not, it seems like just leaving them back and going to the back node will result in your team being decimated, no matter how well you do in their back node.
In a way, I'm seeing possible hints of "team play" becoming more important than ever. GWFs and GFs are now really more vulnerable to multiple ranged attackers.
Before mod4, if a certain side had a clear advantage in the GWF/GFs, that side would either decimate the opposition in the node circle and then drop the ranged classes in the rear lines, or conversely, powerful GWFs would just blow past the close opposition and just stick to the rear targets first. Both were relatively much stronger than just HRs or CWs to take down quickly.
But now, ranged attacks and CCs are superbly powerful. If you ignore them your fighters are decimated from the bombardment. Even if you try to just blow past close enemies and get CWs or HRs first, they would deal strong CCs and deterr you from the attempt, and as a result the fighers would just be easily overwhelmed and brought down.
Obviously, (IMO) in the new-meta, you need TRs with you in the great big mid-fight. They need to go past and hit CWs and HRs from behind. Not necessarily kill them outright, but at least bother them enough to gop dodging and teleporting around, using AoE powers nearby rather than targeting your fightersd from afar, and generally feel really uncomfortable to target your teammates blindly.
...in a sense, my opinion is this actually mighyt be something better, not necessarily "messed up" just because its different from what we've been used to.
I think we need to give it a bit more time to see how this flows.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I still think TRs are the best for back-capping. They just don't have the burst to really effectively harass. I've stood and took duelist's flurries while finishing someone off on my CW because I knew it wouldn't kill me. Maybe other CWs would immediately dodge but I don't know.
The main thing that determines if I win or lose is if there's a good perma on my team or the opponent's team that's backcapping.
That's because you're assuming it'd be a classic perma/semi-perma build that would be messing with your CW -- the kind that is optimized towards node-contesting, with at most an occasional DF attempt being any sort of threat, with the only other attack option being maybe an occasional LB attempt that takes 20 seconds in between, or flimsy knife damage from CoS.
I'm kinda thinking that the shift in role would also warrant a shift in main skill of choice. DF is the defining characteristic of the pre-mod4 semi-perma, but with this mod4 I've gave up on the WK path, moved over to MI that is centered around the use of Dazing Strike -- the TRs only real CC that has acceptable CC duration. DF would whittle you down with succession of mini-damage ticks, but with the right feats Dazing Strike lands around 8 to 9k damage per pop from stealth, against undergeared opponents easily over 10k.
From stealth it fires off in around a second, its recharge time with high INT is around 7~8 seconds. A CW that chooses to underestimate what the TR can do just stands still firing away, is actually the juciest prey for this different build/tactic.
Clearly this is not what the old semi-permas are built for, but mine is. I'm built for Dazing Strike and Gloaming Cut, and a hit of Dazing Strike guarantees additional GC + Shadow Strike as a combo. Assuming crits on both DaS and GC, that's around 8k damage + 5k from GC "normal crit(over 50% HP), and the TR goes back into stealth. When you're hit with the first DS you spend the first 4 seconds or so under daze, and then around 4 secs later the combo from the TR is ready to fire off again. You be hit with this 2 or 3 times, and from that time on GC's damage increase is ready to fire off.
No CW is going to just stand still and take that damage and being CCd repeatedly for 4~5 seconds. He has to move away or try to avoid the TR somehow, and when he does that, my team is free from the threat of the CW. If he tries to bombard my teammates by standing still and firing attacks again, then he's in for another shot of DaS to be CCd again.
The 'traditional' perma/semi-permas won't do this since they don't risk the dangers of unprotected melee attacks, since they are accustomed to fighting more than one enemy on the small node, usually the enemy is aware of your presence and moving around defensively, making it too difficult to land melee attacks... not to mention the risk of trying a stealth-blowing melee attack is much too great under these circumstances.
However, if the circumstances are different, and if the TR focuses on enemies that are preoccupied with somethin else, then you don't necessarily have to stick with DF. Landing attacks like DaS becomes heckuva lot easier -- different roles, different circumstances, possibly different powers and tactics for use.
...
I'm not speaking of as this is the new-meta for TRs. I'm just laying out an example of how a different approach with different role/objectives in mind, could possibly hold new ideas for becoming a deterrant for the CW on the battlefield... and perhaps, this role as the "wizard deterrant" might possibly become more important
Could be. Hence, the need to watch more closely where these lines of changes takes us to.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It won't work.
Smart CWs have 40K+ HP, will ignore your attacks completely while focusing whatever is the priority target. When all the people that are more of a priority than you are down, you gonna be next, stealth won't help you much.
If the CW has a DC, situation even worse for you.
Also a CW can cast their stuff while on the move, with very short periods of remaining in one place. Actually, only bad CWs are stuck in a place trying to nuke. The good ones move all the time, and remain still only when there's no threat.
I still prefer the safety from range, and recommend everybody gets a DC artifact. I always have full AP with that! When I see the CW, I open Whirlwind of Blades from Stealth, immediately pop DC Artifact followed by Impact Shot (stun), GC/Impact Shots till charges are spent procing Action Rush. In less than 6 seconds I have another Whirlwind of Blades to finish him off. It's activation is too fast it can't be dodged or even mitigated!
When using Profound Set, I crit 15K WoB + 9K Bleeds (Brutal Wounds). x2
Impact Shot, average 4K each (3 charges + 2 from stealth) x5
The rotation deals up to 68K; 40K non crit
So yeh...CW has to be very lucky to survive me. But can we go back to the GF for a minute? Frankly, I'm more concerned about them lol
Yesterday, I faught a GF whose shield bar never dropped, at all. Not even diminished by a fraction. And he's obviously blocking. What's up with that? Graphic glitch?
is no longer possible to see the meter, now is just because we gfs also we could not see the force of any kind
Doesn't matter if he has 40k or 400k. A CC is a CC. Dazed = no attack, no focus, no nuthin'.
Think "team". If there's another player as an another variable, then there's no rule or something which states you must take care of it alone. The point is not taking out a CW. It's simply bothering him from what he wants to unleash upon your friends. CCs have a way of making that stop.
When they move all the time, they're not casting. Almost every action self-roots you in NW. When they are casting, they are stopping. It basically depends on how well you can catch that moment.
Besides, if a CW is just squirming around and randomly teleporting between every few attacks, that itself is a huge loss in the amount of damage they deal in the given amount of time. The max potential comes in moments of "free-dealing", when the ranged classes are comfortably placed behind the formation, free to cast everything without intervals to pause and stop. If they can't do that because they fear an attack coming from a TR, and have to move around, that by itself is a success.
If someone's confident with his 40k HP, then woop-dee-too, easier target to CC around continuously while the rest of the team takes out the other players.
Trust me. There is no competent CW in the game that keeps free-dealing once he learns there's a TR around and poking him. The more he moves defensively, the better. He's not doing anything while he squirms.
Again, it's not about taking him down alone. It's about bothering him from doing his job.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
spot on again tr is still way op
40k hp cw with shield is just not enough for survival and no dps
they need to fix that blue dragon so only cw can use them on anything but cw
Nah.
Ray of Frost can be cast from the move. RoE has extremely short cast time. You only stop for Icy Rays/Entangle/Chill Strike/Ice Knife basically, and you do that in about 1.5-2 seconds.
Good CWs do their stuff on the move. If you see CWs rooted on a place trying to freecast, they are baddies.
One thing's for sure to me at least that without HRs being what they were, TRs are in really good shape.
shhhhhhhhhhh
dont go around telling people to use dazing strike
its broken op