But I've been imagining that we need something that hits hard and hits fast, and is equally reusable, but it comes with a risk. DF is a highly telegraphed At-Will to use outside of Stealth. It's a slow, clunky, and a sort of guesstimate At-Will (fire and forget once 3rd hit flurry comes) It can only be effective when under the influence of Stealth, this rework I'm thinking of however isn't, because simply charging it for 1 second can net you Immunity while you flurry the target for a second, which reduces the risk of charging.
The DF rework I have in mind (which will most likely be too much work to implement anyway) is something that will allow TRs to close gaps quickly, to fade in and out of CC immunities (if charged only for 1 second), and to allow TRs to "ambush" people with a fully-charged 4 second hard-hitting flurry from Stealth (immunities included), since the idea I'm raising for Stealth is it'll break after we strike the target with an At-Will. This will make us feel more like Tricksters AND Rogues at the same time.
And yes! We're talking about a MASSIVE damage increase with this idea. The duration of the blade flurries is proportional to the amount of time you charge up the skill. Imagine a 4-second long flurry; that's the type of damage increase I'm trying to raise. However this benefit should come with a risk, and this is where the charging mechanics comes into play. But since we're intelligent human beings, we'll do our best to minimize the risks by charging it inside of Stealth, and allowing DF to lunge us towards the target.
But those are just ideas. I like to think outside the box, so if anyone has ideas that is more realistic, please feel free to raise them. I'll try to link all the detailed suggestions in the front page.
There is a GLARING problem with Duelist's Flurry, and it needs to be addressed in my opinion. 3rd hit is nice, sure. But the rest is honestly just clunky <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Please...NO! This whole idea defies what a TR is. Go into stealth at will? Too funny. A TR is a machine (or should be). There is a process. Not all willy nilly. Worst suggestion ever.
But I've been imagining that we need something that hits hard and hits fast, and is equally reusable, but it comes with a risk. DF is a highly telegraphed At-Will to use outside of Stealth. It's a slow, clunky, and a sort of guesstimate At-Will (fire and forget once 3rd hit flurry comes) It can only be effective when under the influence of Stealth, this rework I'm thinking of however isn't, because simply charging it for 1 second can net you Immunity while you flurry the target for a second, which reduces the risk of charging.
The DF rework I have in mind (which will most likely be too much work to implement anyway) is something that will allow TRs to close gaps quickly, to fade in and out of CC immunities (if charged only for 1 second), and to allow TRs to "ambush" people with a fully-charged 4 second hard-hitting flurry from Stealth (immunities included), since the idea I'm raising for Stealth is it'll break after we strike the target with an At-Will. This will make us feel more like Tricksters AND Rogues at the same time.
And yes! We're talking about a MASSIVE damage increase with this idea. The duration of the blade flurries is proportional to the amount of time you charge up the skill. Imagine a 4-second long flurry; that's the type of damage increase I'm trying to raise. However this benefit should come with a risk, and this is where the charging mechanics comes into play. But since we're intelligent human beings, we'll do our best to minimize the risks by charging it inside of Stealth, and allowing DF to lunge us towards the target.
But those are just ideas. I like to think outside the box, so if anyone has ideas that is more realistic, please feel free to raise them. I'll try to link all the detailed suggestions in the front page.
There is a GLARING problem with Duelist's Flurry, and it needs to be addressed in my opinion. 3rd hit is nice, sure. But the rest is honestly just clunky <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Okay i missed the line about charge time making up how long the flurry is, but other than a max 4 second charge it will still reduce our raw dps.
Also it still negates the use of Deft Strike at all as an at will does a better job of what it does.
As for DF being clunky I only really find it clunky in PVP due to the slowness of the first two attacks. After 1 or 2 hit its too easy to dodge out of the way. I would much rather prefer a shorter animation time on the two original swings than changing the entire power. Note I would expect a slight decrease in damage due to this to keep the power in line with how it is now.
Please...NO! This whole idea defies what a TR is. Go into stealth at will? Too funny. A TR is a machine (or should be). There is a process. Not all willy nilly. Worst suggestion ever.
Does anyone else get a little jealous of the combat HR feats? extra life steal, Piercing damage, and DoT heal, great capstone. I kinda wish we had some of these especially the heal.
If anything is still alive after this 40-50k+HP onslaught over about ~6 seconds, you could easily facetank to finish.
The other problem with entering stealth whenever you want and having it last indefinitely is that whenever an opponent gets you on the ropes, you can simply restealth and go stand in a corner for 2 min to regen HP back to full.
I still feel the feat trees can easily allow you to differentiate those that want to attack from steath from those that want increased DPS without giving too much of each to both.
If anything is still alive after this 40-50k+HP onslaught over about ~6 seconds, you could easily facetank to finish.
The other problem with entering stealth whenever you want and having it last indefinitely is that whenever an opponent gets you on the ropes, you can simply restealth and go stand in a corner for 2 min to regen HP back to full.
I still feel the feat trees can easily allow you to differentiate those that want to attack from steath from those that want increased DPS without giving too much of each to both.
having IS+DS+LB on your bar is risky because you will not have access to ITC, VP or any cc, in my opinion it is ok to achieve high damage output if you are willing to take risk and to pull that chain you mention a TR requires SKILL and GEAR and on top of that no one in pvp will just stand in front of you after your lashing blade they will probably dodge/dash or cc you the moment you appear out of stealth.:rolleyes:
You need to consider alot of things before shouting OP because TR is a high skill and high IQ class or in other words a TR is only as OP as the persone in front of the keyboard
I haven't even seen them solicit a current "bug/broken thread" from the community.
I'm fearful that means, its very far away... Either that or they have decided exactly whats wrong and aren't really interested in our feedback.
Hopefully they don't just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out some thread like they did GWFs saying "here are all the changes... like it or reroll another toon"
Anyone run into one of the long duration stun GWF yet? I met one and there was nothing I could do, it was just the same as the perma freeze CW (well except it took the GWF longer to kill me). He didn't hit that hard but I could never hit back, ITC would not free me and I only got loose with about 1k hp left and there was no escape for me as two dodges spent and he delivered the killing shot. I tried to find out what he used but his reply was simply that it was a "secret" and then 'only elite GWF can do it" and other such stuff. Seriously I was entirely powerless with not a single chance at all except to try to dodge the first hit with FLS and then hope I could run away and hide somewhere.
Anyone run into one of the long duration stun GWF yet? I met one and there was nothing I could do, it was just the same as the perma freeze CW (well except it took the GWF longer to kill me). He didn't hit that hard but I could never hit back, ITC would not free me and I only got loose with about 1k hp left and there was no escape for me as two dodges spent and he delivered the killing shot. I tried to find out what he used but his reply was simply that it was a "secret" and then 'only elite GWF can do it" and other such stuff. Seriously I was entirely powerless with not a single chance at all except to try to dodge the first hit with FLS and then hope I could run away and hide somewhere.
fls easy to dodge np for permas
no roar gwf -dead simple
fls easy to dodge np for permas
no roar gwf -dead simple
I am not a perma but I don't see where their dodge would be any better than any other. I can say that this new stun gwf is harder than a roar prone gwf as I could beat them even if they did land the chain -- this one here if FLS lands I have no chance at all. Now I am no 45k hp TR and they would certainly be alive on the other side of this, but a 35k hp TR will fall if the FLS lands (well this doesn't factor in that ITC may have bugged out on me as half my skills work about half the time anymore (ITC fails, path goes on cooldown, invisible infiltrator does not activate, etc)).
I was thinking about changes that could be pursued in mod 5. I think that stealth needs to be entirely reworked, this now you see me, now you don't (oh wait you did because of this or that or a bug or an item, oh you are a boss sure you saw me, etc) really needs to go. I think the stealth should be more of an obscure effect that does not hide the TR but instead one that provides real and tangible benefits.
While I hate to suggest anything like the GWF unstoppable I will consider it a model of what stealth should be, and that is something that works regardless and with certainty. While 'stealthed' it could provide a slight crit% and crit sev% increase as well as possibly a deflect% increase and also if it can be done a chance to totally avoid being hit by an attack (some % chance that any single target effect will miss). The visual could be a much more visible semi-transparent appearance that while obvious in a one on one might be initially overlooked in a group setting.
Of course things like B&S and SS would no longer extend stealth, but that would allow us room for other useful abilities. Maybe something like throwing marbles down in an area that have a chance to prone (non players) and can cause people to slide like the ice in IWD, or it could be something like a grease. Something to keep us tricky.
That is just a starter idea that could address the major problem players have with stealth in PvP and also it would no longer require special coding of bosses to see us since we would not be invisible. I do think this is the way that things should go to help stabilize the game and allow us to finally work towards balancing the TR and solving our other problems.
I am not a perma but I don't see where their dodge would be any better than any other. I can say that this new stun gwf is harder than a roar prone gwf as I could beat them even if they did land the chain -- this one here if FLS lands I have no chance at all. Now I am no 45k hp TR and they would certainly be alive on the other side of this, but a 35k hp TR will fall if the FLS lands (well this doesn't factor in that ITC may have bugged out on me as half my skills work about half the time anymore (ITC fails, path goes on cooldown, invisible infiltrator does not activate, etc)).
I've never encountered this bug yet. I suppose it's my reaction time and latency somewhere between: prone is too much, stun is ok-- in that only prone can bug my ITC. It's much easier as a non-perma to dodge FLS, because you know its direction when the GWF fires it. When you're in stealth, the GWF is an idiot loosecannon that fires it randomly, which can be more dangerous.
I was thinking about changes that could be pursued in mod 5. I think that stealth needs to be entirely reworked, this now you see me, now you don't (oh wait you did because of this or that or a bug or an item, oh you are a boss sure you saw me, etc) really needs to go. I think the stealth should be more of an obscure effect that does not hide the TR but instead one that provides real and tangible benefits.
While I hate to suggest anything like the GWF unstoppable I will consider it a model of what stealth should be, and that is something that works regardless and with certainty. While 'stealthed' it could provide a slight crit% and crit sev% increase as well as possibly a deflect% increase and also if it can be done a chance to totally avoid being hit by an attack (some % chance that any single target effect will miss). The visual could be a much more visible semi-transparent appearance that while obvious in a one on one might be initially overlooked in a group setting.
Of course things like B&S and SS would no longer extend stealth, but that would allow us room for other useful abilities. Maybe something like throwing marbles down in an area that have a chance to prone (non players) and can cause people to slide like the ice in IWD, or it could be something like a grease. Something to keep us tricky.
That is just a starter idea that could address the major problem players have with stealth in PvP and also it would no longer require special coding of bosses to see us since we would not be invisible. I do think this is the way that things should go to help stabilize the game and allow us to finally work towards balancing the TR and solving our other problems.
Yes that is exactly why I play a TR, with a desire to be CW food. Now please do not think as you do now with a narrow and fixed view, think of what changes would be necessary to make such a thing viable (such as CC immune during this obscure stealth since the TR would well be justified to require it). Stealth as it is is not a good game mechanic. Again I stress that since devices are being implemented to ignore it and bosses being not being affected by it, it should become obvious to most that we require it changed to something that will always work (that or we need devices and bosses that disregard other tab feats of other classes). The stealth as it exists is what would fit a single player game, but it has no place in a game such as this.
As much as I like the idea of a stealth rework, I'm not too fond of that idea in particular, I like to actually being invisible while in stealth, gives a great advantage of letting you choose which fights to fight and which ones to skip. it helps to prepare a good ambush and also to be able to escape when in need.
I'm not a fan of perma stealth though.
As much as I like the idea of a stealth rework, I'm not too fond of that idea in particular, I like to actually being invisible while in stealth, gives a great advantage of letting you choose which fights to fight and which ones to skip. it helps to prepare a good ambush and also to be able to escape when in need.
I'm not a fan of perma stealth though.
You are not pvp player so ofc you're not perma...
And about those idea to make stealth useless as that idea which was suggested before by whoever(doesn't matter). I didn't comment it because i didn't think anyone would consider that idea even worth repeating. But since someone did think so. While it comes to stealth i think that if anyone would propose destroying stealth while they know hr op daily which makes them invisible very often and it's much better than lurking assault, has interest in it. That interest is clear destroy class which they don't play.
Stealth itself has to be fixed that no one can hard lock you or any cheat(there is clearly misunderstanding with calling it other names). If there was some ,,trick'' which would break unstoppable or just disable dc divine mode there would be no explanation that it's just some trick or whatever. There would be many threads about fixing it urgently and god forbid anyone would disagree it should be accepted such a breaking unstoppable or divine mode-that person would be burned on pile. But apparently some classes can fight for their good while other would rather shoot in their feet.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
As much as I also like being invisible while stealthed, I realize that it doesn't fit in this style of game. It actually holds back our potential as has become obvious to most of us. Perhaps an alteration of my suggestion would be that stealth is the invisible stealth we have now -- until an attack is made and then it becomes the obscure form that is visible. This would still allow for the setups and such things but also it would allow our class to start advancing again.
Even when being in stealth, mobs tend to have such a wide arc swing that we are still hit. Players lack the discipline to keep mobs stationary and often they will turn attacks into others as well. When stealthed and engaged on a group with no other melee about if anyone ranged attacks they will begin attacking even with you steatlhed. Mobs in PvE often follow me and attack me while I am stealthed and only ignore me when I drop stealth (wtf). During such times stealth offers us nothing now except a false sense of security. Half the time anymore it seems the only thing that thinks I am stealthed is me.
Remember, I am just offering a suggestion, a possible direction, something else for the devs to consider before we end up with something totally outside our control.
As much as I also like being invisible while stealthed, I realize that it doesn't fit in this style of game. It actually holds back our potential as has become obvious to most of us. Perhaps an alteration of my suggestion would be that stealth is the invisible stealth we have now -- until an attack is made and then it becomes the obscure form that is visible. This would still allow for the setups and such things but also it would allow our class to start advancing again.
Even when being in stealth, mobs tend to have such a wide arc swing that we are still hit. Players lack the discipline to keep mobs stationary and often they will turn attacks into others as well. When stealthed and engaged on a group with no other melee about if anyone ranged attacks they will begin attacking even with you steatlhed. Mobs in PvE often follow me and attack me while I am stealthed and only ignore me when I drop stealth (wtf). During such times stealth offers us nothing now except a false sense of security. Half the time anymore it seems the only thing that thinks I am stealthed is me.
Remember, I am just offering a suggestion, a possible direction, something else for the devs to consider before we end up with something totally outside our control.
Well i just did today 3 cn runs with standard group 3 cw tr dc. Well i could keep draco aggro ofc and debuff with wicked reminder so it went very fast(now CW don't have powerfull debuff on thaumaturge path). That is why wicked reminder was making much difference. And i don't see how could stealth be useless really. Each time i am in stealth only draco aggro me which is exactly what i need and everything else ignore me on the final battle. Also solo instances with stealth build is doable by only TR which makes him special. How come anyone would say all those factors mean nothing? Stealth is very good on pve and pvp but some people can't use it well.
When it also comes to that idea that stealth hold back our potential. Well stealth gives us both offensive and defensive aspect. Well some people here think that stealth nerf is a must. But the truth is that there is other way much simplier and better and i am really surprised no one mentioned it so far... This way should have been made from begun of game, but for some really mysterious reason for me, it wasn't. Simply adjust damage of TR for both pve and pvp. Fixing skills and changing them is whole on the other side it needs changes and fixes of couse. The damage on pvp should be approx as it is except for unnerfing shocking execution to old damage and impact shot. Rest skills can stay pretty same quite weak with damage but changed so they actually do sth-read dazzing strike, smoke bomb, blitz. Then you would have balance on pvp. When it comes to pve buff all powers, all of them a lot. Shocking execution from the old damage pre module 3 would need to be buffed at least by 100%. And other skills as well. The buffs would have to be all done so TR will have again best single target damage to hold bosses aggro easly. I am playing both pve and pvp on the highest lvl(pvp maybe not the elite high lvl) and i know what TR needs. And i really can't understand how can you give up on pvp as some people would say-whatever nerf perma so i can finally play pve. Or others say that who cares for pve TR is dead in pve. TR is NOT dead in either pve or pvp but it has terrible situation in both. So i would suggest stop arguing what is more important pve or pvp and come to compromise so TR will be excellent in pvp and good in pve(as CW will always be the best in pve it is most likely inevitable).
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
That is like a good argument against stealth that you gave. Not in that it doesn't work, but in that it disrupts what is intended to happen. I have also killed about every monster that walks or crawls in this game solo with stealth and I can tell you that I am sure that is not what is intended. In SP I can finish alone faster than most groups as I only kill 4 monsters (I cause the deaths of others but I don't kill them and it takes no more than 20 or 30 sec for that), DV same thing pretty much. Solo killing in that fashion is not a valid argument in my opinion as it isn't intended and seems off to me in an MMO.
Yes they can now separate PvP and PvE damages and that is a possible solution, but I still don't feel as if it is the best. There is not really a "highest level" in this game as it is way too easy anymore (except for the old days of some of the T1 dungeons it sort of always has been) and I don't feel right about any boasts in that matter. Except in premade fights, PvP is rather poor in this game and tends to be one sided, I have had two even matches ever and in one of those one quit because it was even. I don't claim to know what TR needs as I speak for myself but I know that it only holds for continued trouble in the way it is now (e.g. more see invis bosses/mobs, mechanics and walls to prevent stealth bypass, bugs with stealth being seen, etc).
I don't accept this "CW will always be best in pve" as such should not be static.
***Bumped*** This is a prime example as to why @todesfaelle should be the TR class advocate.
Why? I disagree with most of his suggestions. Especially DF or BnS. But that's my personal opinion. Of course you can have your personal opinions too.
Every player has his own prefered playing style and different priorities to the content. Some people care more about PvE, some more about PvP. And even then there alot of different playstyles - depending on how you want to play. There are PvE speedrunners, or PvE RPers, IWD PvP Players, PvP players that prefer solo-q or players that only play against other premades.
Regarding to this having only one "advocate" doesn't even work. The advocate's tasks will be to collect every useful ideas from the forums for class changes but he'll priorizie them by his own opinion. Thats the reason why you need atleast 3-5 advocates for one class to discuss about changes and which ones the priorized should be.
Also the advocates of each classes should talk to each other before sending their stuff to the devs to avoid building up a "OP"-class. And actually - all that should be the Developers/Game Designers task! Honestly - If they don't understand their own game mechanics in high-tier pve/pvp... they need to play more.
But ye... thats just IMHO.
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Hey, guys. Thanks for all the feedback. Been very busy at work, whole new set of responsibilities, upcoming promotion again soon as September 25 hits.
Haven't had the chance to update my set of suggestions (some of which proved to be too extreme for some people), but I assure everyone that it would make a whole lot more sense once I get into the feats and class features. These suggestions are just wishful thinking, however. I just like raising ideas, and hearing what people have to say about them. In the end they are merely suggestions, completely far from getting implemented.
As for the topic of advocacy, I believe it's not a job where you "build" the class to your liking. Rather, it's merely compiling the voices of the community into a neatly organized document, like an office secretary I guess. Whoever becomes advocate should try to tackle this in the simplest manner possible; just listen to everyone and collate the information accordingly. Simple is best, IMO.
This game isn't played by the end-game players alone. Just as Nuudlz said, there is a WIDE spectrum of players who play this game for a wide variety of reasons. There is not ONE play style or specific demographic of players that should be advocated. If this proves to be too much work for one advocate then there's always the option of getting more than one, IMO; just so the devs would get a second opinion, and see which parts of their reports connect, and which ones prove to be too extreme.
Why? I disagree with most of his suggestions. Especially DF or BnS. But that's my personal opinion. Of course you can have your personal opinions too.
Every player has his own prefered playing style and different priorities to the content. Some people care more about PvE, some more about PvP. And even then there alot of different playstyles - depending on how you want to play. There are PvE speedrunners, or PvE RPers, IWD PvP Players, PvP players that prefer solo-q or players that only play against other premades.
Regarding to this having only one "advocate" doesn't even work. The advocate's tasks will be to collect every useful ideas from the forums for class changes but he'll priorizie them by his own opinion. Thats the reason why you need atleast 3-5 advocates for one class to discuss about changes and which ones the priorized should be.
Also the advocates of each classes should talk to each other before sending their stuff to the devs to avoid building up a "OP"-class. And actually - all that should be the Developers/Game Designers task! Honestly - If they don't understand their own game mechanics in high-tier pve/pvp... they need to play more.
But ye... thats just IMHO.
If this game was about balance there would never been such a class as OPCW. I made 3 classes when game was in beta-mod1 so i can play each role-tank-single target best striker, healer and control-aoe damage dealer. Well now in this module? They made TR useless in pve and DC well with these easy instances no need for true healer. But CW... They made CW with so ridiculous damage that with life steal you can heal all hp. And single target damage of class who already has the best control and best aoe damage? How high it could be? Of course it crush TR as tr would have no single target damage at all! Yey now we don't need to make any other classes than CW. And what were you saying? Oh yes that advocates should not create op classes... Each class makes their class op if they exclude people who want to destroy class-that's exactly what CW does. And TR? TR forum will promote everyone who want to get class on bottom and beyond it.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited September 2014
Seriously, I don't like most of your suggestions :
Stealth :
I am against it. A shorter stealth that will not allow to be perma-stealth, except with an adapted low-damaging build, ok, but I think this ability to hit without being seen is a major advantage of our class. When a TR is visible, it can easely be controled, it lack resistance by comparison with other melees classes while lacking mobility of a true agile character (HR as an example).
At the same time, being visible already mean that stealth will not reload due to damages, so if stealth break with at-will, we get hit and lose our ability to became invisible.
If we get a compensation (like a more agile rogue that move fast and dodge often, or much more damage), why not, but if you only break stealth, with all the trash mobs this game have, you are just making the rogue even more useless and fragile.
Actually, I see the sealth nerf but no real buff.
Encounters:
- Dazing Strike: why not but I am not sure it will really improve the power
- Deft Strike: as I say, I am strongly opposed to your suggested stealth mechanic. Also, I see this power more like a dodge than a buff.
- Lashing Blade: that's Ok
- Bait and Switch: why not, but again, your think about stealth look wrong for me.
- Blitz: I see no real use in this rework.
- Path of the Blade: why not
- Impossible to Catch: so you want us to be at the same time visible and without the ability to avoid attacks ? Seriously, I see no use in +60% speed and stamina regen... Let's simply remove this power, that would have the same effect.
- Vengeance's Pursuit: I can't see any real improvement.
- Impact Shot: same here, except the no damage reduction, I can't see any real progress.
- Shadow Strike: here I agree
- Wicked Reminder: why not, but I am not especially interested in this change, even if I often use this power.
- Smoke Bomb: I can't imagine SB as a poison area... And I can't see any real use in the stealth mechanic you suggest...
At-Wills:
- Sly Flourish: Why not... That's not the best idea I have ever heard but why not.
- Cloud of Steel: why not... not sure.
- Duelist's Flurry: my answer is definitely NO.
this power is actually our big-target-at-will. It is already easy to land it in PvE, no need to be TP on the target, also, 4s charge are longer than the actual mechanic, and it is already what restrict the use of this power in groups (because CW GWF and WL kill mobs too fast). What you suggest make me feel of a strong nerf of this at-will.
It is much better in it's actual form.
- Gloaming Cut: why not. Still better than actual version. But will look quite redundant with your suggested DF rework, so you give 2 really similar at-will to MI...
- Disheartening Strike: why not
Before anything : what about talents ?
TR's talent are for an important part bugged or useless, Some of them really need a rework.
What I see here is a «*not-so invisible TR*», but with no real compensation. We already die pretty fast when visible and lack damage. Here I see some upgrades on the damage side (they don't look really important thought), but as we loose our stealth mechanic we also loose damage and survivability. Also, most stealth upgrade became useless (talents and PvP armor), witch mean those ones also need a rework (ex : pvp armor give damage bonus from stealth, that don't work anymore, and a buff to stealth duration, that loose all interest), witch is not considered here.
As a consequence, I am not sure it will improve our situation in groups fight. And I don't know what you think about it, but me, I am bored of being ready for T2, posting during more than an hour in LFG to finally be invited in an epic cape tower because no one want a TR in PvE.
Even with friends, most often, they only want a rogue for the +5% crit to allies talent.
Comments
Hahaha. I tried.
But I've been imagining that we need something that hits hard and hits fast, and is equally reusable, but it comes with a risk. DF is a highly telegraphed At-Will to use outside of Stealth. It's a slow, clunky, and a sort of guesstimate At-Will (fire and forget once 3rd hit flurry comes) It can only be effective when under the influence of Stealth, this rework I'm thinking of however isn't, because simply charging it for 1 second can net you Immunity while you flurry the target for a second, which reduces the risk of charging.
The DF rework I have in mind (which will most likely be too much work to implement anyway) is something that will allow TRs to close gaps quickly, to fade in and out of CC immunities (if charged only for 1 second), and to allow TRs to "ambush" people with a fully-charged 4 second hard-hitting flurry from Stealth (immunities included), since the idea I'm raising for Stealth is it'll break after we strike the target with an At-Will. This will make us feel more like Tricksters AND Rogues at the same time.
And yes! We're talking about a MASSIVE damage increase with this idea. The duration of the blade flurries is proportional to the amount of time you charge up the skill. Imagine a 4-second long flurry; that's the type of damage increase I'm trying to raise. However this benefit should come with a risk, and this is where the charging mechanics comes into play. But since we're intelligent human beings, we'll do our best to minimize the risks by charging it inside of Stealth, and allowing DF to lunge us towards the target.
But those are just ideas. I like to think outside the box, so if anyone has ideas that is more realistic, please feel free to raise them. I'll try to link all the detailed suggestions in the front page.
There is a GLARING problem with Duelist's Flurry, and it needs to be addressed in my opinion. 3rd hit is nice, sure. But the rest is honestly just clunky <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Okay i missed the line about charge time making up how long the flurry is, but other than a max 4 second charge it will still reduce our raw dps.
Also it still negates the use of Deft Strike at all as an at will does a better job of what it does.
As for DF being clunky I only really find it clunky in PVP due to the slowness of the first two attacks. After 1 or 2 hit its too easy to dodge out of the way. I would much rather prefer a shorter animation time on the two original swings than changing the entire power. Note I would expect a slight decrease in damage due to this to keep the power in line with how it is now.
Spoken like a true 4k gs bot.
Im assuming 3 (+) like divinity bar. Correct me if wrong, but even if less many of my lower comments hold up.
Deft Strike>Stealth>LB+25% damage from DS + 100% armor Pen>stealth>IS>stealth>IS>Deft Strike again>SS>stealth.
If anything is still alive after this 40-50k+HP onslaught over about ~6 seconds, you could easily facetank to finish.
The other problem with entering stealth whenever you want and having it last indefinitely is that whenever an opponent gets you on the ropes, you can simply restealth and go stand in a corner for 2 min to regen HP back to full.
I still feel the feat trees can easily allow you to differentiate those that want to attack from steath from those that want increased DPS without giving too much of each to both.
My post is http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?724541-TR-changes-in-mod-5-that-could-make-everyone-happy
having IS+DS+LB on your bar is risky because you will not have access to ITC, VP or any cc, in my opinion it is ok to achieve high damage output if you are willing to take risk and to pull that chain you mention a TR requires SKILL and GEAR and on top of that no one in pvp will just stand in front of you after your lashing blade they will probably dodge/dash or cc you the moment you appear out of stealth.:rolleyes:
You need to consider alot of things before shouting OP because TR is a high skill and high IQ class or in other words a TR is only as OP as the persone in front of the keyboard
I'm fearful that means, its very far away... Either that or they have decided exactly whats wrong and aren't really interested in our feedback.
Hopefully they don't just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out some thread like they did GWFs saying "here are all the changes... like it or reroll another toon"
fls easy to dodge np for permas
no roar gwf -dead simple
I am not a perma but I don't see where their dodge would be any better than any other. I can say that this new stun gwf is harder than a roar prone gwf as I could beat them even if they did land the chain -- this one here if FLS lands I have no chance at all. Now I am no 45k hp TR and they would certainly be alive on the other side of this, but a 35k hp TR will fall if the FLS lands (well this doesn't factor in that ITC may have bugged out on me as half my skills work about half the time anymore (ITC fails, path goes on cooldown, invisible infiltrator does not activate, etc)).
While I hate to suggest anything like the GWF unstoppable I will consider it a model of what stealth should be, and that is something that works regardless and with certainty. While 'stealthed' it could provide a slight crit% and crit sev% increase as well as possibly a deflect% increase and also if it can be done a chance to totally avoid being hit by an attack (some % chance that any single target effect will miss). The visual could be a much more visible semi-transparent appearance that while obvious in a one on one might be initially overlooked in a group setting.
Of course things like B&S and SS would no longer extend stealth, but that would allow us room for other useful abilities. Maybe something like throwing marbles down in an area that have a chance to prone (non players) and can cause people to slide like the ice in IWD, or it could be something like a grease. Something to keep us tricky.
That is just a starter idea that could address the major problem players have with stealth in PvP and also it would no longer require special coding of bosses to see us since we would not be invisible. I do think this is the way that things should go to help stabilize the game and allow us to finally work towards balancing the TR and solving our other problems.
I've never encountered this bug yet. I suppose it's my reaction time and latency somewhere between: prone is too much, stun is ok-- in that only prone can bug my ITC. It's much easier as a non-perma to dodge FLS, because you know its direction when the GWF fires it. When you're in stealth, the GWF is an idiot loosecannon that fires it randomly, which can be more dangerous.
You want TR to be CW food?
Yes that is exactly why I play a TR, with a desire to be CW food. Now please do not think as you do now with a narrow and fixed view, think of what changes would be necessary to make such a thing viable (such as CC immune during this obscure stealth since the TR would well be justified to require it). Stealth as it is is not a good game mechanic. Again I stress that since devices are being implemented to ignore it and bosses being not being affected by it, it should become obvious to most that we require it changed to something that will always work (that or we need devices and bosses that disregard other tab feats of other classes). The stealth as it exists is what would fit a single player game, but it has no place in a game such as this.
I'm not a fan of perma stealth though.
You are not pvp player so ofc you're not perma...
And about those idea to make stealth useless as that idea which was suggested before by whoever(doesn't matter). I didn't comment it because i didn't think anyone would consider that idea even worth repeating. But since someone did think so. While it comes to stealth i think that if anyone would propose destroying stealth while they know hr op daily which makes them invisible very often and it's much better than lurking assault, has interest in it. That interest is clear destroy class which they don't play.
Stealth itself has to be fixed that no one can hard lock you or any cheat(there is clearly misunderstanding with calling it other names). If there was some ,,trick'' which would break unstoppable or just disable dc divine mode there would be no explanation that it's just some trick or whatever. There would be many threads about fixing it urgently and god forbid anyone would disagree it should be accepted such a breaking unstoppable or divine mode-that person would be burned on pile. But apparently some classes can fight for their good while other would rather shoot in their feet.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Even when being in stealth, mobs tend to have such a wide arc swing that we are still hit. Players lack the discipline to keep mobs stationary and often they will turn attacks into others as well. When stealthed and engaged on a group with no other melee about if anyone ranged attacks they will begin attacking even with you steatlhed. Mobs in PvE often follow me and attack me while I am stealthed and only ignore me when I drop stealth (wtf). During such times stealth offers us nothing now except a false sense of security. Half the time anymore it seems the only thing that thinks I am stealthed is me.
Remember, I am just offering a suggestion, a possible direction, something else for the devs to consider before we end up with something totally outside our control.
Well i just did today 3 cn runs with standard group 3 cw tr dc. Well i could keep draco aggro ofc and debuff with wicked reminder so it went very fast(now CW don't have powerfull debuff on thaumaturge path). That is why wicked reminder was making much difference. And i don't see how could stealth be useless really. Each time i am in stealth only draco aggro me which is exactly what i need and everything else ignore me on the final battle. Also solo instances with stealth build is doable by only TR which makes him special. How come anyone would say all those factors mean nothing? Stealth is very good on pve and pvp but some people can't use it well.
When it also comes to that idea that stealth hold back our potential. Well stealth gives us both offensive and defensive aspect. Well some people here think that stealth nerf is a must. But the truth is that there is other way much simplier and better and i am really surprised no one mentioned it so far... This way should have been made from begun of game, but for some really mysterious reason for me, it wasn't. Simply adjust damage of TR for both pve and pvp. Fixing skills and changing them is whole on the other side it needs changes and fixes of couse. The damage on pvp should be approx as it is except for unnerfing shocking execution to old damage and impact shot. Rest skills can stay pretty same quite weak with damage but changed so they actually do sth-read dazzing strike, smoke bomb, blitz. Then you would have balance on pvp. When it comes to pve buff all powers, all of them a lot. Shocking execution from the old damage pre module 3 would need to be buffed at least by 100%. And other skills as well. The buffs would have to be all done so TR will have again best single target damage to hold bosses aggro easly. I am playing both pve and pvp on the highest lvl(pvp maybe not the elite high lvl) and i know what TR needs. And i really can't understand how can you give up on pvp as some people would say-whatever nerf perma so i can finally play pve. Or others say that who cares for pve TR is dead in pve. TR is NOT dead in either pve or pvp but it has terrible situation in both.
So i would suggest stop arguing what is more important pve or pvp and come to compromise so TR will be excellent in pvp and good in pve(as CW will always be the best in pve it is most likely inevitable).
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Yes they can now separate PvP and PvE damages and that is a possible solution, but I still don't feel as if it is the best. There is not really a "highest level" in this game as it is way too easy anymore (except for the old days of some of the T1 dungeons it sort of always has been) and I don't feel right about any boasts in that matter. Except in premade fights, PvP is rather poor in this game and tends to be one sided, I have had two even matches ever and in one of those one quit because it was even. I don't claim to know what TR needs as I speak for myself but I know that it only holds for continued trouble in the way it is now (e.g. more see invis bosses/mobs, mechanics and walls to prevent stealth bypass, bugs with stealth being seen, etc).
I don't accept this "CW will always be best in pve" as such should not be static.
Why? I disagree with most of his suggestions. Especially DF or BnS. But that's my personal opinion. Of course you can have your personal opinions too.
Every player has his own prefered playing style and different priorities to the content. Some people care more about PvE, some more about PvP. And even then there alot of different playstyles - depending on how you want to play. There are PvE speedrunners, or PvE RPers, IWD PvP Players, PvP players that prefer solo-q or players that only play against other premades.
Regarding to this having only one "advocate" doesn't even work. The advocate's tasks will be to collect every useful ideas from the forums for class changes but he'll priorizie them by his own opinion. Thats the reason why you need atleast 3-5 advocates for one class to discuss about changes and which ones the priorized should be.
Also the advocates of each classes should talk to each other before sending their stuff to the devs to avoid building up a "OP"-class. And actually - all that should be the Developers/Game Designers task! Honestly - If they don't understand their own game mechanics in high-tier pve/pvp... they need to play more.
But ye... thats just IMHO.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Haven't had the chance to update my set of suggestions (some of which proved to be too extreme for some people), but I assure everyone that it would make a whole lot more sense once I get into the feats and class features. These suggestions are just wishful thinking, however. I just like raising ideas, and hearing what people have to say about them. In the end they are merely suggestions, completely far from getting implemented.
As for the topic of advocacy, I believe it's not a job where you "build" the class to your liking. Rather, it's merely compiling the voices of the community into a neatly organized document, like an office secretary I guess. Whoever becomes advocate should try to tackle this in the simplest manner possible; just listen to everyone and collate the information accordingly. Simple is best, IMO.
This game isn't played by the end-game players alone. Just as Nuudlz said, there is a WIDE spectrum of players who play this game for a wide variety of reasons. There is not ONE play style or specific demographic of players that should be advocated. If this proves to be too much work for one advocate then there's always the option of getting more than one, IMO; just so the devs would get a second opinion, and see which parts of their reports connect, and which ones prove to be too extreme.
If this game was about balance there would never been such a class as OPCW. I made 3 classes when game was in beta-mod1 so i can play each role-tank-single target best striker, healer and control-aoe damage dealer. Well now in this module? They made TR useless in pve and DC well with these easy instances no need for true healer. But CW... They made CW with so ridiculous damage that with life steal you can heal all hp. And single target damage of class who already has the best control and best aoe damage? How high it could be? Of course it crush TR as tr would have no single target damage at all! Yey now we don't need to make any other classes than CW. And what were you saying? Oh yes that advocates should not create op classes... Each class makes their class op if they exclude people who want to destroy class-that's exactly what CW does. And TR? TR forum will promote everyone who want to get class on bottom and beyond it.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Stealth :
I am against it. A shorter stealth that will not allow to be perma-stealth, except with an adapted low-damaging build, ok, but I think this ability to hit without being seen is a major advantage of our class. When a TR is visible, it can easely be controled, it lack resistance by comparison with other melees classes while lacking mobility of a true agile character (HR as an example).
At the same time, being visible already mean that stealth will not reload due to damages, so if stealth break with at-will, we get hit and lose our ability to became invisible.
If we get a compensation (like a more agile rogue that move fast and dodge often, or much more damage), why not, but if you only break stealth, with all the trash mobs this game have, you are just making the rogue even more useless and fragile.
Actually, I see the sealth nerf but no real buff.
Encounters:
- Dazing Strike: why not but I am not sure it will really improve the power
- Deft Strike: as I say, I am strongly opposed to your suggested stealth mechanic. Also, I see this power more like a dodge than a buff.
- Lashing Blade: that's Ok
- Bait and Switch: why not, but again, your think about stealth look wrong for me.
- Blitz: I see no real use in this rework.
- Path of the Blade: why not
- Impossible to Catch: so you want us to be at the same time visible and without the ability to avoid attacks ? Seriously, I see no use in +60% speed and stamina regen... Let's simply remove this power, that would have the same effect.
- Vengeance's Pursuit: I can't see any real improvement.
- Impact Shot: same here, except the no damage reduction, I can't see any real progress.
- Shadow Strike: here I agree
- Wicked Reminder: why not, but I am not especially interested in this change, even if I often use this power.
- Smoke Bomb: I can't imagine SB as a poison area... And I can't see any real use in the stealth mechanic you suggest...
At-Wills:
- Sly Flourish: Why not... That's not the best idea I have ever heard but why not.
- Cloud of Steel: why not... not sure.
- Duelist's Flurry: my answer is definitely NO.
this power is actually our big-target-at-will. It is already easy to land it in PvE, no need to be TP on the target, also, 4s charge are longer than the actual mechanic, and it is already what restrict the use of this power in groups (because CW GWF and WL kill mobs too fast). What you suggest make me feel of a strong nerf of this at-will.
It is much better in it's actual form.
- Gloaming Cut: why not. Still better than actual version. But will look quite redundant with your suggested DF rework, so you give 2 really similar at-will to MI...
- Disheartening Strike: why not
Before anything : what about talents ?
TR's talent are for an important part bugged or useless, Some of them really need a rework.
What I see here is a «*not-so invisible TR*», but with no real compensation. We already die pretty fast when visible and lack damage. Here I see some upgrades on the damage side (they don't look really important thought), but as we loose our stealth mechanic we also loose damage and survivability. Also, most stealth upgrade became useless (talents and PvP armor), witch mean those ones also need a rework (ex : pvp armor give damage bonus from stealth, that don't work anymore, and a buff to stealth duration, that loose all interest), witch is not considered here.
As a consequence, I am not sure it will improve our situation in groups fight. And I don't know what you think about it, but me, I am bored of being ready for T2, posting during more than an hour in LFG to finally be invited in an epic cape tower because no one want a TR in PvE.
Even with friends, most often, they only want a rogue for the +5% crit to allies talent.
In my opinion, nwnghost's suggestion look better (not on every power, but on the average). Still have a stealth nerf, but don't make it nearly useless as you suggest it.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?756951-Thoughts-on-balancing-TR&p=8989741&viewfull=1#post8989741