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Is it just me or are TR really going to any better after the Mod 4 changes?

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  • crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    dakbur wrote: »
    Stop. OP'd TR.

    They can't buff our damage, stealth time, AND let us continue to attack from stealth... I won't even get into spammable CC.

    Its just not going to happen. They have already said they are pretty much gunna make perma-stealth effectively go away or make it insanely hard to do.

    I expect they are going to make at-wills drastically reduce concealment time when used from stealth. Once they do that, they can buff up our encounter damage and even squeak in a CC ability, though I wouldn't expect the moon as this can easily send us down the GWF route with high CC and high DPS.
    Go back playing your op gwf or hr. TR need a lot improvements to be playable again.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    They once proposed making at wills deplete stealth but thankfully it was stopped due to player outcry. It would have made our class feature worthless since you couldn't even get off a round of DF. If they ever do act on eliminating perma builds, it will probably be to change the refill powers.

    As far as fixing the class for PVE, my best guess is that they'll us a bit more damage and then add some party buffs as they have with the GF. Both classes being in much the same boat due to dungeon content that doesn't require the role that the class is designed for.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • dakburdakbur Member Posts: 152 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    lwedar wrote: »
    I would like more tricks for my trickster. How about smokebomb actually working same as rogue NPC, IE you are stunned when the encounter is triggered. Right now you can drop smoke bomb and then the enemy just dodges out or melee strikes you when you are in middle of smoke bomb lol.

    Deft strike should really slow them, I am talking at least 50% and from stealth it is longer with a debuff.

    These kind of things. Just fix what we have and then see where they are.

    I agree with those suggestions. I love smoke bomb for PvP and as a WK TR, it is my best substitute for the ITC loss. Outside of its occasional bugginess & slowness to apply I would love to see it stun, so long as they don't increase the CD. If they want to increase the CD by adding stun functionality, I'd prefer to keep the daze only and ~12-13s CD
    lwedar wrote: »
    Go back playing your op gwf or hr. TR need a lot improvements to be playable again.

    Fail.

    Maybe you should try addressing my specific points instead of imagined motives. I have a GWF, CW, and HR... I've barely played them in months... I play my WK TR every day (almost exclusively PvP). If you can look past the trees and see the forest, the reason this class got damage nerf after damage nerf ultimately stems from how we can attack from stealth and re-stealth mid-combat... Stealth is the ultimate survival ability... if you pair nearly perfect survival ability with high offense you have an OP'd class... I've never played another MMO where this was allowed, its normally balanced by slow movement & must be out of combat. So long as that unique mechanic is present, we simply can not be balanced...

    The most obvious way to rebalance the class is to make at-will use while stealthed burn our stealth meter similar to when we have a hefty DoT applied, then remove shadow strike... yes, you heard me... remove it. Gone. We can keep lurkers for an emergency oh sh*t power. Leaving stealth to attack should be a commitment...

    Once that is done, we can go back to being the single target dps grandmasters... and not until. The devs aren't going to let you 1 shot a squishie in the middle of 5 peeps then melt back away into stealth. Those of you that think we should are delusional.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    dakbur wrote: »
    I agree with those suggestions. I love smoke bomb for PvP and as a WK TR, it is my best substitute for the ITC loss. Outside of its occasional bugginess & slowness to apply I would love to see it stun, so long as they don't increase the CD. If they want to increase the CD by adding stun functionality, I'd prefer to keep the daze only and ~12-13s CD



    Fail.

    Maybe you should try addressing my specific points instead of imagined motives. I have a GWF, CW, and HR... I've barely played them in months... I play my WK TR every day (almost exclusively PvP). If you can look past the trees and see the forest, the reason this class got damage nerf after damage nerf ultimately stems from how we can attack from stealth and re-stealth mid-combat... Stealth is the ultimate survival ability... if you pair nearly perfect survival ability with high offense you have an OP'd class... I've never played another MMO where this was allowed, its normally balanced by slow movement & must be out of combat. So long as that unique mechanic is present, we simply can not be balanced...

    The most obvious way to rebalance the class is to make at-will use while stealthed burn our stealth meter similar to when we have a hefty DoT applied, then remove shadow strike... yes, you heard me... remove it. Gone. We can keep lurkers for an emergency oh sh*t power. Leaving stealth to attack should be a commitment...

    Once that is done, we can go back to being the single target dps grandmasters... and not until. The devs aren't going to let you 1 shot a squishie in the middle of 5 peeps then melt back away into stealth. Those of you that think we should are delusional.

    I can't help but think that you did not play this game early on. The first TR "Meta" was ITC, impact shot, and lashing blade. Note, not a single stealth refill power. High stealth builds only started to gain popularity AFTER the nerfs began. A high stealth build already gives up tremendous CC, burst, and utility. The only reason high stealth builds are popular is because all of these things are an outright joke for our encounters. Give rogues REAL stuns with a lead in as potent for example as front line surge, REAL gap closers(not a 14 sec CD), REAL damage (lashing hits pretty hard but using it out of stealth with a 18 second CD?).

    Since when is a stealth based rogue "high" offense. High offense compared to what? A GWF that that can chain prone and kill someone in one rotation in five seconds? A GF that has a rotation almost as potent and is three times tougher than you in terms of HP+defense. A Cw that can do the same from 80ft range with skills that auto target? A HR that can keep aoe DOTs up constantly and take more than half your health from that charge up shot at range?. And the TR has what? Melee at wills that are extremely hard to land on any mobile target. Range at wills that do chip damage. A daily that yes is extremely effective but that also takes a very long time to cap. Nearly perfect survivability I can buy, "high offense" every other class but DC has us beat by miles in terms of targeting, damage, CC, and burst.

    As a melee striker with very low defenses rogue needs to have CCs, damage, and utility far ABOVE the higher defense melee classes.
    Once this happens we will have options, and hard decisions to make. Many will abandon the current high stealth meta. Some will not. Really, the only TRs who are doing well right now are the ones who have perfected their evasion skills and at will targeting to nigh art forms, AND have the gear to back it up.
  • crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    dakbur wrote: »
    I agree with those suggestions. I love smoke bomb for PvP and as a WK TR, it is my best substitute for the ITC loss. Outside of its occasional bugginess & slowness to apply I would love to see it stun, so long as they don't increase the CD. If they want to increase the CD by adding stun functionality, I'd prefer to keep the daze only and ~12-13s CD



    Fail.

    Maybe you should try addressing my specific points instead of imagined motives. I have a GWF, CW, and HR... I've barely played them in months... I play my WK TR every day (almost exclusively PvP). If you can look past the trees and see the forest, the reason this class got damage nerf after damage nerf ultimately stems from how we can attack from stealth and re-stealth mid-combat... Stealth is the ultimate survival ability... if you pair nearly perfect survival ability with high offense you have an OP'd class... I've never played another MMO where this was allowed, its normally balanced by slow movement & must be out of combat. So long as that unique mechanic is present, we simply can not be balanced...

    The most obvious way to rebalance the class is to make at-will use while stealthed burn our stealth meter similar to when we have a hefty DoT applied, then remove shadow strike... yes, you heard me... remove it. Gone. We can keep lurkers for an emergency oh sh*t power. Leaving stealth to attack should be a commitment...

    Once that is done, we can go back to being the single target dps grandmasters... and not until. The devs aren't going to let you 1 shot a squishie in the middle of 5 peeps then melt back away into stealth. Those of you that think we should are delusional.

    So delusionals are:
    -All CW who wants control, damage and be the best in both pve and pvp
    -GWF who wants to have shift as any other class when they have op unstoppable(which is not worse than stealth). Also they have the best single target damage with the best Damage reduction in armor
    -HR who have stealth and just crazy healing and defensive skills and 6 encounters(which was a bad idea from the start, the dot damage from various skills so argument of extended recharge of skills is worthless) and think it is fair
    -Those who made, by all cries, TR crippled and useless in both pvp(as for stealth class which dominates pvp in mmo they are horrible comparison) and pve, yet still crying about op tr while at same time kick them from parties whenever they can see them

    Remember those points each time when you are about to write non sense about TR.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    dakbur wrote: »
    Stop. OP'd TR.

    They can't buff our damage, stealth time, AND let us continue to attack from stealth... I won't even get into spammable CC.

    Its just not going to happen. They have already said they are pretty much gunna make perma-stealth effectively go away or make it insanely hard to do.

    I expect they are going to make at-wills drastically reduce concealment time when used from stealth. Once they do that, they can buff up our encounter damage and even squeak in a CC ability, though I wouldn't expect the moon as this can easily send us down the GWF route with high CC and high DPS.

    they can. with reworked bait and switch you will be visible and with better damages on encounters you are going to have 1 slotted for sure.
  • dakburdakbur Member Posts: 152 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    I can't help but think that you did not play this game early on. The first TR "Meta" was ITC, impact shot, and lashing blade. Note, not a single stealth refill power. High stealth builds only started to gain popularity AFTER the nerfs began. A high stealth build already gives up tremendous CC, burst, and utility. The only reason high stealth builds are popular is because all of these things are an outright joke for our encounters. Give rogues REAL stuns with a lead in as potent for example as front line surge, REAL gap closers(not a 14 sec CD), REAL damage (lashing hits pretty hard but using it out of stealth with a 18 second CD?).

    Since when is a stealth based rogue "high" offense. High offense compared to what? A GWF that that can chain prone and kill someone in one rotation in five seconds? A GF that has a rotation almost as potent and is three times tougher than you in terms of HP+defense. A Cw that can do the same from 80ft range with skills that auto target? A HR that can keep aoe DOTs up constantly and take more than half your health from that charge up shot at range?. And the TR has what? Melee at wills that are extremely hard to land on any mobile target. Range at wills that do chip damage. A daily that yes is extremely effective but that also takes a very long time to cap. Nearly perfect survivability I can buy, "high offense" every other class but DC has us beat by miles in terms of targeting, damage, CC, and burst.

    As a melee striker with very low defenses rogue needs to have CCs, damage, and utility far ABOVE the higher defense melee classes.
    Once this happens we will have options, and hard decisions to make. Many will abandon the current high stealth meta. Some will not. Really, the only TRs who are doing well right now are the ones who have perfected their evasion skills and at will targeting to nigh art forms, AND have the gear to back it up.

    Yes, you are correct. I only started playing NWO in January, I wasn't playing in the early days. However, the way I understand it is, that while we were less stealth based, a majority peeps in PvP were only running around with 20-25k HP and no tenacity. This meant that 20k LB crits were easy and near one-shot kills. This would not be the case today. I suspect that our original damage is more in line with current defense focused builds.

    For your specific class comparisons, see my response to crusherbeast below.

    So delusionals are:
    -All CW who wants control, damage and be the best in both pve and pvp
    -GWF who wants to have shift as any other class when they have op unstoppable(which is not worse than stealth). Also they have the best single target damage with the best Damage reduction in armor
    -HR who have stealth and just crazy healing and defensive skills and 6 encounters(which was a bad idea from the start, the dot damage from various skills so argument of extended recharge of skills is worthless) and think it is fair
    -Those who made, by all cries, TR crippled and useless in both pvp(as for stealth class which dominates pvp in mmo they are horrible comparison) and pve, yet still crying about op tr while at same time kick them from parties whenever they can see them

    Remember those points each time when you are about to write non sense about TR.

    For starters, I'm not going to address PvE. I really only PvP. I also don't know every precise detail for M4 changes, so please forgive any errors on my part and highlight them.

    CW: If CW is so insanely OPd for PvP, then why isn't there a single CW on the 1st page of rankings? (yes, I know the rankings aren't perfect, but they do give you a rough idea to the effectiveness in PvP of a class) & rankings aside, I rarely have much trouble dispatching CWs.

    GWF: GWFs are getting a massive damage nerf, threatning rush nerf, and no prone encounters... so are you sure you really want to be modeled after them? Even in their current state, given 2-5 uninterrupted minutes, I can own all but the ones that have 50k HP+high regen or the ones that seem to have stealth radar.

    HR: HRs are getting nerfed too. I suspect they will still be OP'd, but sometimes that takes a few patches to correctly dial in. HRs I can kill too except the best ones or the really tanky ones... I simply cant out-DPS their regen/heals.

    The bottom line is that all the classes you point to are getting massive changes with likely more changes in the near future, so current comparisons have little value.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    dakbur wrote: »
    Yes, you are correct. I only started playing NWO in January, I wasn't playing in the early days. However, the way I understand it is, that while we were less stealth based, a majority peeps in PvP were only running around with 20-25k HP and no tenacity. This meant that 20k LB crits were easy and near one-shot kills. This would not be the case today. I suspect that our original damage is more in line with current defense focused builds.

    TR was actually WAY more OP'ed than just lashing back in the day. 3 shots of impact shot = 75% HP on a soft class. Full round of 12 cos shots = 80% or more on a soft class. Crit shocking execution = anyone dead from half HP. Essentially Trs had two encounters and two at wills(COS, DF) that could all but kill any soft class and when used in combos could rip any tough class a new one, If the TR used lurkers assault with +60% damage to all of these for 10 seconds-forget about it. Having said that, CWs and GFs were also complete MONSTERS in pvp as well.
    Power creep has made all of these skills about half as effective as they were originally. COS, shocking execution, and impact shot have been nerfed to to about 1/2 their original effectiveness ON TOP of power creep. Lurker's assault was reduced from 60% to 25%. Flurry damage was reduced by 60-80% in terms of PVE, closer to 50% for PVP purposes. The end result? Tr's are now a faint shadow of their former selves. While the original Tr WAS OP for both PVE and PVP, what happened after that was a case of rabid overnerfing, combined with no changes or balances as power creep sent the TR into a downward spiral. Furthermore, the weaknesses and bugs of encounters and dailies that were problems from the start were never addressed.
    A sentinal GWF loading all defense encounters has MUCH better survivability than any rogue. A HR has it by default as long as they spec for pvp at all and don't ignore it. The only thing preventing a GF from being in the same boat is that their tab/shift abilities are complete garbage. Take a moment if you can to imagine this. A GF that has sprint/dodge as shift, can move at full speed while blocking, can spam any of their good at wills while blocking.
    What has happened to TR is dedicated players striving to make the class work against all odds. TR is OP for PVP? Try telling that to any new player trying this class for the first time.
  • dakburdakbur Member Posts: 152 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    What has happened to TR is dedicated players striving to make the class work against all odds. TR is OP for PVP? Try telling that to any new player trying this class for the first time.

    I never said Trs are OP'd. If we are permastealth and well geared vs undergeared opponents that don't understand permastealth mechanics, then in that specific instance, we ARE, but that's really no different from any other class. Against good opponents, can we be competent, despite all our useless and bugged abilities, yes we can. Disagree? Look at the PvP leaderbards, there are plenty of TRs up there... Yes, there are more GWFs & HRs, but we are probably number 3.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm in no way, shape, or form saying things are fine as is... feats don't make sense, we should get ArP as a class ability like GWFs, & as much fun as I have as a permastealth troll, I would love the option to go straight up DPS.
  • kalintharkalinthar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    TR's are definitely underpowered now. I was there during Beta and they were unkillable. A Good TR in Beta would slaughter you in 5 seconds. The nerf was far too hard; but understandable as permastealth builds are stupid. The effect of the nerfs has been to make melee TR's nearly unplayable.

    You wont get an invite to dungeons (a criminal oversight by Cryptic) and in PvP - you are only good for baiting away. Try landing Duelist's Flurry on any experienced PvPer and you will see what I mean.

    The Stealth mechanic was designed to act as the get in - do damage - and get out. The issue is that stealth in now easily beatable. The real issue is that a TR's alpha strike powers detracts from Cryptic's ideal play style model of longer fights. NO TR will survive in a long fight on a node without lots of help in PvP. This because you can be struck by an encounter power from a GF and GWF while in stealth and you are dead if either prones you.

    AS for HR's.... well. That is just a stupid idea. They will interrupt you with Disruptive shot using 25% of the dailies; Marauder's strike in and whack you; press TAB; Marauder's strike out and then stun you again. That is fair; isn't it?

    As for daily's, HR's actually have better stealth daily's than the TR. That's saying something isn't it! And they only have to get to 50% of their daily to use them! How does that compare to Lurker's assault.....it doesn't. A 100% deflect stealth daily that heals....compared to a refresh stealth that wont do much unless you are already IN STEALTH.

    And with some end game cleric's ---- they <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them laughing at a TR trying to kill them. That's is how bad the damage has been nerfed. A TR will not kill an end game DC in a one on one (assuming gs and skill the same).

    What does all this mean? The iconic striker of D&D is dead. You cannot alpha anything to any reasonable extent and you die in an instant to everyone else. Take the melee TR's ultimate power...Shocking Execution. IT can be dodged or interrupted. NO other melee based character has such a nerf. GWF's were buffed so they cannot be dodged or interrupted and the same rules apply to GWF.

    TR's are dead. Stop thinking Cryptic will address the issues with any degree of alacrity or concern about what the player base wants or says.

    If you like the TR playstyle...Train up a HR. They are the new uber powerful rogue now.

    GWF, HR's and GF are the new meta. Just roll with it as Cryptic does not care.
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