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Cult of the Dragon Foundry Contest - Official Discussion Thread

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  • dtzdtz Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The Cleric of Lurue seems a very popular questgiver this week. So far, 3/4 quests I've played have started at him.
    Rank 8 Foundry Grand Master

    Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I just had a very enjoyable night of foundries. Reviews when I wake up.

    Um...are you awake yet???

    I want to read more reviews!
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Sorry, finishing up Dragon Scroll. Or trying to, since it appears to be bugged.

    Whoever it was that said this was a great foundry was being sarcastic. It is terrible.
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  • dtzdtz Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well, I liked it anyway. YMMV, I suppose.
    Rank 8 Foundry Grand Master

    Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
  • kendaricvkendaricv Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    SO MANY 2 star reviews that said practically verbatim: "Story was great, adventure was awesome, sparkly trail took me off a cliff, end loot sucked."

    SMH

    Don't let that stop you from creating a follow-up quest or even a campaign. The players really interested in your stuff know the limitations in the foundry and will ignore those issues when rating.
    "Whispers of an ancient evil" is a great piece of work that actually felt like I was playing a session of PnP D&D. That is what people like me are looking for in the foundry.

    There are, of course, things Cryptic should add to the foundry. A blue reward from the end chest at higher levels would be a good step, skill nodes would be another and of course greater control over the encounters (factions, etc.).
  • iandarkswordiandarksword Member Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    kendaricv wrote: »
    Don't let that stop you from creating a follow-up quest or even a campaign. The players really interested in your stuff know the limitations in the foundry and will ignore those issues when rating.
    "Whispers of an ancient evil" is a great piece of work that actually felt like I was playing a session of PnP D&D. That is what people like me are looking for in the foundry.

    There are, of course, things Cryptic should add to the foundry. A blue reward from the end chest at higher levels would be a good step, skill nodes would be another and of course greater control over the encounters (factions, etc.).

    Don't worry. I'm still in the brainstorming/creative/research stages. P&P is my background, I have many books to draw inspiration from (mostly 3.0, 3.5 editions, as these were when I became an "adult" with my own income.) Out of 956 reviews, Whispers only had 23 two star ratings, so I often wonder how many could've been better if those issues were addressed. I just found those type of reviews so ironic, given the known issues with path-finding and treasure. I didn't want to include the "Author has no control over loot" waiver statement, at this point it should be well known. I may be slower to release more, as I have 2 kids and they are involved in various extra curricular activities, but I will eventually get around to it.
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
    Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
    Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I didn't want to include the "Author has no control over loot" waiver statement, at this point it should be well known.

    No, it's apparently not. I HAVE such a notice immediately before opening the chest and STILL get poor final loot comments. *facepalm*

    I don't think people can read.
  • iandarkswordiandarksword Member Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    eldarth wrote: »
    No, it's apparently not. I HAVE such a notice immediately before opening the chest and STILL get poor final loot comments. *facepalm*

    I don't think people can read.

    I completely agree, (and have the forehead bruises to prove it.) It SHOULD be known by the player base, doesn't mean it IS known or even acknowledged. Maybe the contest will help exacerbate some attention to the needs of the Foundry. Like a big flashing sign. Maybe someone could make an "Complete Idiot's Guide to Playing Foundry Quests" module that explains, through gameplay, what is and is not currently capable for authors. I suggest Biff the Understudy, or the beloved Dungeon Master from the 80's cartoon as your guide.
    Dungeon Master: "Here we have your pathfinding trail. If you notice, it will lead you off the cliffside to your doom. Henceforth disregard the pathfinding trail."
    Biff the Understudy: "Here is the final chest. You will get an uncommon quality item. This is unavoidable, and is not determined by your progress in this quest, no matter how hard or easy it was. Thank you for playing. Tip your author, I'm here all week."
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
    Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
    Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    My week 3 contest entry reviews: Yes, they're on Google+

    And, a link, again, to the probably totally inaccurate standings in the contest so far: Dragon Cult Contest Standings
    dec2014nwsig.png
  • dtzdtz Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The first time I played The Dragon Scroll, the key didn't drop. I mailed the author, and played it again about a week or so later, and it dropped just fine from the intellect devourer pack near the mind flayer boss, so I assumed it was fixed. Guess it's just finicky (or maybe the quest item has a tendency to get thrown off the edge into the void). In any case, there was a lot more quest than I expected after the mind flayer bit the dust - it's really only the beginning that's about him, and after that it's all about the Cult.
    Rank 8 Foundry Grand Master

    Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I saw your review of the quest, saying how it took you all up and down the Sword Coast. I guess Kasul and I thought that finding the ancient scroll marked the near end of the quest. We suspected the key fell into one of the gaps in the floor, but jumping down through one of them killed us instantly.

    Those cavern maps are tricky. I use one in my quest -- but I put a plane of something -- slime, I think -- beneath the entire room, so that nothing can possibly be lost.

    I'll have to take your word for it that the quest improves from there. I do think this issue is why it has been slow to get out of the For Review tab.
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  • kendaricvkendaricv Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I saw your review of the quest, saying how it took you all up and down the Sword Coast. I guess Kasul and I thought that finding the ancient scroll marked the near end of the quest. We suspected the key fell into one of the gaps in the floor, but jumping down through one of them killed us instantly.

    Those cavern maps are tricky. I use one in my quest -- but I put a plane of something -- slime, I think -- beneath the entire room, so that nothing can possibly be lost.

    I'll have to take your word for it that the quest improves from there. I do think this issue is why it has been slow to get out of the For Review tab.

    It improves, but not enough to be really good. The story has promise and could work out if the maps got overhauled, but as it stands the chances of getting off the review tab are pretty slim.

    The problems I see with that quest:

    1. Some maps are needlessly large with a lot of backtracking.
    -> Constant enemy respawns due to the issue above
    2. At least two maps are prefabs with no additional work put into them.
    3. Items, including quest items can get lost too easily on the cave maps (lost one or two blue drops that way).
    4. Some encounters are too static (especially in the mindflayer lair)
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It is off the review tab now. It will be interesting to see how it does, now that people can find it.
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  • dtzdtz Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    My week three reviews:

    The Dragon Scroll - 5/5
    The use of multiple zone maps populated with regional enemies makes it feel like it's taking place in the actual game world. A really strong story with some good combats.

    The Dragon's Prize - 5/5
    Wonderful quest all around. Great story that tied in perfectly to the Tyranny of Dragons. Love it!

    A Game of Dragons - 3/5
    Pretty average. The dialogue was amusing, but I feel like there was the potential for a much stronger quest here.

    The Cult's Hideout - 2/5
    Feels unfinished. Some rooms are really well designed, the rest are just big and empty. The entire second half was way too long and extremely repetitive. Dialogue was unremarkable.

    Stop the Cult of the Dragon - 3/5
    Not bad, but nothing special either. No explanation of what the artifact that the Cult was after actually did, or why they wanted it. There's the framework of a good quest here, but it needs a lot more work to really be great.

    Rise of Ingeloakastimizilian - 5/5
    Really cool quest. Phenomenal mapwork and roleplay elements.


    Overall, week three was definitely much stronger than week 2; my average scores were 2.83 for week 1, 2.5 for week 2, and 3.83 for week 3. I know what's featured when has no official bearing on the contest results, but I'm very interested to see how week 4 stacks up.
    Rank 8 Foundry Grand Master

    Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
  • docsc00terdocsc00ter Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Just got back from vacation and pulled up reviews from "The Dragon's Prize." Lots of great feedback, and I continue to be impressed by Neverwinter's players! But I was particularly struck by the trend from the negative reviews. Other than a few early reviews that were disappointed after running a group of 5 players through it (because it was designed for a single player), and a couple of negative reviews from players who found the combat challenging (as opposed to those who found it too easy... go figure...), most of the low-star reviews mentioned their disappointment with the final loot. *sigh* Despite all the caveats we offer, despite the same experience with every single Foundry out there, people complain that they only end up with a lousy green item in the final chest. (One guy even complained that the green item wasn't for his class, so he threw 1 star at me.)

    It's not like we don't try to educate the players about our total lack of control over the loot that's offered. People still don't understand our limitations. And many folks still see the Foundry as simply another MMO means of gaining character progression and acquiring items. Either the Foundry needs a meaningful way to satisfy those players (I'm still in favor of some kind of token system for purchasing rewards), or Cryptic needs to seriously promote and educate players about what the Foundry is and why it's so wonderful apart from being a source of loot.
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    docsc00ter wrote: »
    Despite all the caveats we offer, despite the same experience with every single Foundry out there, people complain that they only end up with a lousy green item in the final chest. (One guy even complained that the green item wasn't for his class, so he threw 1 star at me.)

    Even after devoting your ENTIRE QUEST DESCRIPTION to caveats :)

    I honestly don't know what people expect from foundries. The ones I thought would be unstoppable juggernauts languish. The ones I thought would be lost in the sea of similar kill quests do wonderfully. If my quest isn't skipped, it could be featured tomorrow, and it's clear now that story based quests are not what most people look for in the foundry. Eldarth's quest was phenomenal, and it's near the bottom of the Week 3 entries when rated by total stars.

    Well, at least in my quest, I have NPCs at the end who explain, once more, that we have no control over the loot and furthermore, it's going to be a useless green item that they will want to sell immediately.
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  • docsc00terdocsc00ter Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ...The ones I thought would be unstoppable juggernauts languish. The ones I thought would be lost in the sea of similar kill quests do wonderfully...

    Which is why I believe Akro said that future contests would likely involve the Cryptic staff judging the entries rather than leaving it to the effects of fickle player reviews. Throw in the noticeably diminished number of plays once this week's event began and... well... :(

    I still see this entire contest as a learning experience for Cryptic, with the side benefit being a surge in attention for the Foundry. In the end, there have been some really wonderful quests to enjoy, and a bunch of new Authors have dipped their toes into the quest-making pool.
  • eldartheldarth Member Posts: 4,494 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Even after devoting your ENTIRE QUEST DESCRIPTION to caveats :)

    I'm not convinced that these people can even read.

    In City Skirmish, just before the final chest where I explain the usual caveats and then provide 5 different answers -- only 1 of which shows that you actually read the caveat.

    I got 1-starred for an "annoying" dialog. sigh.

    I want my sparkly trail and I don't want any text. That's our foundry players.
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    docsc00ter wrote: »
    Which is why I believe Akro said that future contests would likely involve the Cryptic staff judging the entries rather than leaving it to the effects of fickle player reviews. Throw in the noticeably diminished number of plays once this week's event began and... well... :(

    I still see this entire contest as a learning experience for Cryptic, with the side benefit being a surge in attention for the Foundry. In the end, there have been some really wonderful quests to enjoy, and a bunch of new Authors have dipped their toes into the quest-making pool.

    Yours would be in first place so far if it was done by highest rated (which they originally said it would be, and it could still be)

    Foundries are like food. Fast food gets more customers but is not judged for its quality.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • kendaricvkendaricv Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    eldarth wrote: »
    I want my sparkly trail and I don't want any text. That's our foundry players.

    Well, that's a part of the foundry players (admittedly a sizable part, but still). The question is, are those the players people want to create modules for or do you want to create for people who look for good storylines and lore, even though they are fewer in number?
    I know I'll take a one hour foundry module with good dialog, story, well-made areas and good lore over a 20 minute farm/grind any day.

    I do agree, however, that they really should look at the rewards. Ideally they'd give out tokens rather than actual loot, much like they do with Nemesis mission in Champions.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'd love to play longer foundries, sadly I usually get random disconnects and most of the time if I'm playing a foundry quest, I can't go back to play it after logging again, so I just play shorter quests.
    (when logging back I can still see the quest I have to do but there's no way to actually enter the foundry map, even going to the world map doesn't show the area)
    If there was a way so we didn't loose progress on foundry quests unless we abandon it, I would definitely play longer ones, for now I keep on playing shorter than 30 min ones.
    And I agree with kendaricv, even though many people might only care for grind quests, they're not the people I make my foundries for.
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  • iandarkswordiandarksword Member Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Why not take the 60 minutes, and break it into 3-20 minute quests or 4 15-minute quests? Then the "Daily Foundry" objective is completed AND if someone is between plot points and has to leave, they can stop and then start back up at the next quest. I think that may be one way to solve the player apprehensiveness at the longer quests. Many people I think focus on getting the AD from the Dailies, and they have other Dailies, so time is important to them. If you give them a way to get the dailies without the farm, and give them a good story then you win. When people are hooked by story, not necessarily long pages of text, then they are more apt to revisit or finish the story line.
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
    Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
    Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Why not take the 60 minutes, and break it into 3-20 minute quests or 4 15-minute quests?.

    It's not so simple, It's jarring to just end a quest at a door just because of this 15 minute "rule" this is also a problem if you want items to carry over/optional things.

    I personally find it baffling how someone can only pay attention for 15 minutes. I don't really know anyone who plays a singleplayer game for 15 minute intervals (which foundry kinda is like) especially RPGs.
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • kithliskithlis Member Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    grimah wrote: »
    It's not so simple, It's jarring to just end a quest at a door just because of this 15 minute "rule" this is also a problem if you want items to carry over/optional things.

    It's a choice the author is able to make, though. My campaign was originally going to be a trilogy, but the middle section was a bit ambitious and stretched too long (45+), so I split it in two. It was a hassle to do, because of the things you mentioned: optional questions, and items. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to handle that, but I made it work. While it isn't ideal, I'm glad I did it.
    grimah wrote: »
    I personally find it baffling how someone can only pay attention for 15 minutes. I don't really know anyone who plays a singleplayer game for 15 minute intervals (which foundry kinda is like) especially RPGs.

    Different audience. The MMO genre may have evolved from the singleplayer CRPG, but the MMO player is much more varied than the RPG player, imo. We're also trained by the game itself to expect quest-based instances (eg Lairs) to take only a short amount of time.
    The author has to decide if they want to stay true to their original vision, or modify their method to suit the medium.
    There's also the decision not to try to cater to the widest fan-base, and keep your foundry niche - just for those who want a long (hopefully well told) adventure.
  • grimahgrimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    kithlis wrote: »
    It's a choice the author is able to make, though. My campaign was originally going to be a trilogy, but the middle section was a bit ambitious and stretched too long (45+), so I split it in two. It was a hassle to do, because of the things you mentioned: optional questions, and items. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to handle that, but I made it work. While it isn't ideal, I'm glad I did it.

    Different audience. The MMO genre may have evolved from the singleplayer CRPG, but the MMO player is much more varied than the RPG player, imo. We're also trained by the game itself to expect quest-based instances (eg Lairs) to take only a short amount of time.
    The author has to decide if they want to stay true to their original vision, or modify their method to suit the medium.
    There's also the decision not to try to cater to the widest fan-base, and keep your foundry niche - just for those who want a long (hopefully well told) adventure.

    Well it depends who you want to play your foundry, everyone or those who want the experience you crafted.

    And Im happy I kept my first one the way it is (1hr+ duration) because it would not be as good as it is, if i changed it. And it has a fair amount of plays for its length i think, so the audience is there. But you just have to find it.

    The thing is, most authors who use this forum do not make lairs or MMO style quests (go kill --> end chest) Many i play are stories, alot of them hurt themselves because the pacing is squeezed into 20 minutes and you are left without any impression or stimulation. There is a reason why most of the highest rated quests are 30+ mins long (though there are some exceptions) because they give you an experience where 15-20 minutes ones often do not (again not always).

    And personally if you are a storyteller the 30min+ mark is best because it filters out all the people who just want to speed through and click click finish.

    But I'll let it end there, because this is going offtopic (sorry)
    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • xetmk24xetmk24 Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Sorry to interrupt but I have a little, well major problem with my quest Sharandar's Defense - NW-DDFUT2JXY - @topwicz . And since it is a contest entry...

    Well... I can't be completed. Or rather... I can complete it just fine but for some reasons two (of which I know) players couldn't.
    The problem seems to be with inky cloud and invisible sphere.
    At the last stage the player is supposed to interact with invisible sphere and during "conversation" with that sphere inky mist is to show up. It works like that when I play it but not when this two players did.

    Anyone else is having problems with invisible spheres in theirs quests?

    Heres what they see:
    vennestand_zpsa470ece9.jpg

    And here what they supposed to see:
    screenshot_2014-09-22-00-45-40_zpsb2444fc8.jpg

    Not sure if this is a good place to post it but it is part of the contest.
    Echo of the Ancient - NW-DT2ABLPD2 - The Wizards forces are pillaging ruins of the ancient, elven kingdom of Illefarn. In order to stop them, you need to lead your party through old, abandoned mines. But beware... you are not alone there...
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Probably a separate thread would have been better, but --

    I've found those spherical interactable regions are really sensitive to what they are wrapped around. If there's an issue, players can see the sparkly, but cannot interact. My usual fix is to move the interactable so what it wraps is well behind where the player would interact.

    Not sure if that's your issue, but it's what I've seen with those.
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  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yay, I'm featured this week, everyone play and review Fire Sale :)

    However, I can only find FIVE featured quests this week. That means that there's a sixth stuck in the For Review tab, but without a news post there's no way of knowing which it might be.

    Does anyone know?

    Copied and pasted all the short codes from the end of the Week 3 entries to the beginning of what would certainly be featured in Week 5, nothing. Maybe they only did five.
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  • dtzdtz Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Looks like the sixth is in the Review tab again; had to search the names instead of the short codes, since the Featured ones get new codes:
    Unearthed Draconica
    NW-DKJ4QF9CQ
    @ducdilimoni
    Rank 8 Foundry Grand Master

    Check out my Foundry questline, The Brightstone Explorers' Guild, now archived on Youtube!
  • tipadaknifetipadaknife Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Playing it now.
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