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Balance

spongebob56spongebob56 Member Posts: 234 Arc User
edited June 2014 in PvE Discussion
nikofromcroatia wrote: »
All we are asking is bring 2 classes back in line with the others and at least give DC's " Something "

Looks like you have three listed there, with HR being obvious and a tie between GWF and TR. What are the "2 classes"?

What we are seeing on preview currently is an even more deadlier HR, a semi squishy GWF that hits for less damage, and the same ole TR. Unless something changes that chart will be all green with HR in the near future.
Post edited by spongebob56 on
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Comments

  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    They need to change the formula on how the board works, and make DC healing done count, and GFs ( something ) count and make it so all classes have potential to make the same amount of points.


    They say its not kill based yet here we look and it certainly seems that way, I mean the top 10 people must have a DC on their team or a CW???? Why their team must have the same win ratio, why are they not in the top 10 also?
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    11 HR 5 TR 4 GWF a way is see the main problem ist the GWF no matter what ppl say .
    I dont see TR as a prloblem in long term this first page will be pure green.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    What this is a reflection on is what the GWF players have been saying for a month, that GWFs are not the strongest class in game its HRs, yet every other thread was nerf GWF.. so thats what you get, all of these GWFs who know this are already leveling thier HRs or quitting. There is no sense to drag in the piece of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they are going to throw at you for that class now. Instead of fine tuning them a little, they just drop a bomb on them , the result will be pretty horrific it appears.

    In terms of overall leaderboards, pretty apparent those are all premades anyways.. but why does it matter, I never even look, I think I was in the top 100 once or twice but a few losses or wins will kill me, I think last time I looked I was like 377 or something on my GWF. I rarely premake any groups , every once in awhile my guild will throw in 5 together, we usually end up like 6-2 or something and hit one of the real top end guilds that destroy us once in awhile.

    Its individual rankings for 5 person group, even if you drag in 2-3 sometimes, wham a 6k no GS wonder will be paired up with you and your going to lose anyways, or you can try to win and go 12 kills and 22 deaths as you storm 2 over and over to prevent points from accumulating.

    The leadboard only serves those that either are in top end premades or are selfish and wont crash nodes to keep points from rolling.

    I have my own play style and Im fine with it, I do not need to be judged by those boards at all.

    Im not wonderboy in pvp anyways, I play for fun, hence its why its a game to me, I do try my best, gear up as much as I can, set up pvp spec, all that jazz, but I dont have 9-10's and pefects on all of my classes, my best enchants are a few 8s and normal, though Im trying to save like mad for better.. bad timing, just because wards are getting pretty expensive. Lets say , I never try to be the worst on any time =P...
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    nikofromcroatia wrote: »

    All we are asking is bring 2 classes back in line with the others and at least give DC's " Something "

    PvP is dying, Consider these recent messages at the death knell that rings before the funeral...

    As a DC, I can't stand PvP at the moment. And because PvP is all I do, I don't play much anymore. It's pretty soul-crushing when you play with something like a rainbow comp, run into a geared premade of 3/2 GWFs and 2/3 HRs, and can't win even though they have only half the skill and experience, but they are being carried by their classes and comp like crazy. The fact that it's taking developers so long to address this huge imbalance is frustrating.

    Would anyone have the links to the posts where developers talk about upcoming changes to HRs, GWFs, and CWs?
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    velynna wrote: »
    As a DC, I can't stand PvP at the moment. And because PvP is all I do, I don't play much anymore. It's pretty soul-crushing when you play with something like a rainbow comp, run into a geared premade of 3/2 GWFs and 2/3 HRs, and can't win even though they have only half the skill and experience, but they are being carried by their classes and comp like crazy. The fact that it's taking developers so long to address this huge imbalance is frustrating.

    Would anyone have the links to the posts where developers talk about upcoming changes to HRs, GWFs, and CWs?

    Technically only GWF got the brutal nerf HR and CW get buffed .
    But here is a link http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692671-Tyranny-of-Dragons-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-25-20140616d-2
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    velynna wrote: »
    As a DC, I can't stand PvP at the moment. And because PvP is all I do, I don't play much anymore. It's pretty soul-crushing when you play with something like a rainbow comp, run into a geared premade of 3/2 GWFs and 2/3 HRs, and can't win even though they have only half the skill and experience, but they are being carried by their classes and comp like crazy. The fact that it's taking developers so long to address this huge imbalance is frustrating.

    Would anyone have the links to the posts where developers talk about upcoming changes to HRs, GWFs, and CWs?

    Balance is one thing, but its not balance, its throwing a huge bomb on the GWF class, and not nerfing the the HR to the same extent. TRs remain the same for the time being.

    This basically makes 1 class dominate and 1 that can compete.

    I too have a DC and I too have stopped using it much in PVP, I never cared if I could kill tons of things, but post tenacity its not fun at all to play a DC, if you havent noticed many of our top PVPers no longer even post here.. one we know quit (jazzfong), but when is the last time you seen Vorphied or Spain4rd post?

    Last night Lerooy Jenkins quit the game, he has made like 100's of posts in the GWF forum, I will not speculate what drove him, but when gaming companies make this many changes, and your life gets busy, easy enough to make the decision to drop it.
  • hamletswordshamletswords Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    If you include page 2 it's basically even for the 3 top classes. Only a few hrs on page 2 currently.

    What's more glaring is how few CWs, Dcs and GFs there are.
    My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I feel your pain my hole guild quit wanished ,i play alone in my guild .(hint: my guild was the lagest Hungarian guild with more then 500 Hungarian player)
    Also my friends dont play any more cuz of nerfs after nerf.
    I dont know how long i want to be here too but the last shocker was MOD4.
    The player base are to much separate devs lisen to 8-10 k GS player hou dont understand why they cant kill somone with 18-20k GS perfect enchants owned player . And they nerf all good things in a name of pvp.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    silverkelt wrote: »
    I too have a DC and I too have stopped using it much in PVP, I never cared if I could kill tons of things, but post tenacity its not fun at all to play a DC, if you havent noticed many of our top PVPers no longer even post here.. one we know quit (jazzfong), but when is the last time you seen Vorphied or Spain4rd post?

    Yep. When winning PvP becomes more about what comp you're running with or into than about the skill you've developed, it loses a lot of its appeal for the less fortunate classes like GFs (even moreso!), DCs, and CWs.

    And thanks for the link, schweifer1982!

    I've noticed that when Cryptic nerfs things, they tend to nerf them into oblivion. It happened with the tenebrous enchantments, the emblem artefact, the GF set, and a number of other things. I would hate to see that happen to PvP GWFs, as nasty as I currently find them.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    It's not all geared up r9/r10 premades in the top 100 pages. My cheapo r7 HR is on page 22, and all I ever do is pug a couple of games every night. I don't use potions either. GFs and DCs need a buff agreed, but CWs already kick my *** if I don't get in close real fast. Gwfs are kinda okay as they are to be honest, I'd rather fight one than most other classes 1 on 1. 2 roarers are deadly though. Trs need more options of build. Even perma stealth isn't working all that well with all the tanky toons around, they definitely need more spike damage to be even threatening anymore.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Leaving a game for nerfs is bull****s.. you are gonna to be nerfed and buffed again every day. You are playing an mmo after all what did you expect?
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    Leaving a game for nerfs is bull****s.. you are gonna to be nerfed and buffed again every day. You are playing an mmo after all what did you expect?

    It's about leaving the game when you realize that the developers don't quite understand the game. They've had a lot of time with the game, they've gotten huge amounts of feedback on the preview shard and the forums, and balance is worse than ever. They introduced tenacity so that players don't get burst down, and then they modify GWFs to do exactly that. They introduced healing depression so that players can't stay alive forever and then create the HR set. The developers get absolutely destroyed whenever they stream PvP because they have very limited understanding of the classes. I suspect I've been around for longer than you have, so I'm quite familiar with how the game has changed.

    This post isn't meant to deride the developers. I think they are doing the best they can with what they've been given. But I'm starting to lose hope when I see that many class changes appear to become increasingly senseless and out-of-touch with the actual game.
  • tryptaminescapetryptaminescape Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The game is only one year old. I've played WoW for ten years, and you can still find threads that say basically exactly what people are saying now. Anytime you have classes that aren't homogenized, and you have both PVE and PVP in a game, there will always be balance issues. It took WoW almost two years to even get some of the classes working at all. Seriously give them time to figure it out, and things should get smoother, but anyone should be prepared for the fact that balance is an illusion in games like this. It can't happen. The classes are too dynamic for everyone to feel balanced. You've got an example in this exact thread as well as others where some people are saying other classes feel more powerful than the GWF, and they'd rather fight the GWF, then you've got comments where people are saying how broken OP the GWF is. Bottom line. Things will never get balanced, because the game itself is so dynamic, and the people playing are so different and opinionated.
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    No one is saying perfect balanced can be achieved. But having a game with 6 classes, and mainly 2 that dominate PvP and one that dominates PvE is a serious issue. Especially when balance is getting WORSE as time goes on. And honestly, if they took the feedback from experienced players, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out.
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    And I'm really tired of hearing the argument "thing will never get balanced" as an excuse to overlook particularly gross imbalances. I don't imagine it's easy to balance a game, but the issues here are that 1) the developers seem to lack the ability to understand how their changes to certain feats/skills will synergize with the rest (which leads to broken builds) 2) they overlook it when these broken builds/abilities are posted on the test shards forums, and 3) they overlook great advice on class balancing that is often posted. We're not talking "it's hard to balance a game and we're making a few mistakes"-kind of behaviour from the developers. We're talking "ignoring what everyone is saying and somehow breaking things even more every. single. time."-kind of behaviour.
  • kolevrakolevra Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    This is a f2p game that profits off of imbalances.
    --- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
    Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    nikofromcroatia wrote: »
    I ask the Dev's... is this truly PvP balance ?

    You want to make this class just as strong in Mod 4...and this is the current state of PvP...

    Untitled.jpg


    All we are asking is bring 2 classes back in line with the others and at least give DC's " Something "

    PvP is dying, Consider these recent messages at the death knell that rings before the funeral...

    Actually they are making HR stronger in Mod 4...
  • velynnavelynna Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    kolevra wrote: »
    This is a f2p game that profits off of imbalances.

    Well, then. I guess I'll stop bothering. Always great to see the community write unhelpful, resigned things like "balance isn't possible," "it's f2p," etc.

    By the way, making HRs incredibly difficult to kill, for example, does not really equal profit for Cryptic. I'm talking about class balance, not gear balance, which isn't that tied to profit for Cryptic. Except in the way that it will LOSE them profit by creating problems with player retention.

    But you know, whatever, class balance isn't possible, free to play game, D&D doesn't include PvP, life's not fair, and so on. Let's just get all these unnecessary comments out of the way so that we can actually discuss what the issues in the game are and what might be done.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    The leaderboard is full of HRs.....yet HRs are getting buffed overall in module 4. Sounds about right.

    Also, one of the HRs on the leaderboards has 204 wins and only 1 loss but I'm sure cryptic wants to preserve the integrity of their game and has looked into it right :rolleyes:
  • maxiumdanmaxiumdan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I was thinking about this topic earlier, balance. In my mind, balance isnt necessarily that x class equal y class, instead, is that each available path in each class has a decent chance of success. I am so tired of seeing that same builds from each class, and when you try and deviate from the optimum class you noticably are less successful. Lastly, my first point was misleading - a second part of 'balance' is with similiar experienced and geared players you should each have a decent chance of winning at least a 1 v 1 match against each other.
  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    velynna wrote: »
    It's about leaving the game when you realize that the developers don't quite understand the game. They've had a lot of time with the game, they've gotten huge amounts of feedback on the preview shard and the forums, and balance is worse than ever. They introduced tenacity so that players don't get burst down, and then they modify GWFs to do exactly that. They introduced healing depression so that players can't stay alive forever and then create the HR set. The developers get absolutely destroyed whenever they stream PvP because they have very limited understanding of the classes. I suspect I've been around for longer than you have, so I'm quite familiar with how the game has changed.

    This post isn't meant to deride the developers. I think they are doing the best they can with what they've been given. But I'm starting to lose hope when I see that many class changes appear to become increasingly senseless and out-of-touch with the actual game.

    Sadly, this post is quite true. All of the nerfs and buffs to classes are tested on (get this) target dummies. That's it. They adjust the casting times and damages accordingly, all on target dummies. This is why we've seen such extreme nerfs and buffs, because the Devs (unfortunately), do not test powers, combination of powers, and/or features in any type of real scenario (specifically PVP).

    It seems they make their adjustments, and then wait for the "nerf" threads.

    What is most tragic about all of this is that the Neverwinter player base has done extensive testing and given amazing feedback on the current state of classes and PVP. It would be in their best interest to actually listen to (or hire someone to listen to) the player base.

    We'll see what comes.
    PWP_zpsf8f711ce.jpg
    Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
  • slushlikewindslushlikewind Member Posts: 272 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    Well DEV would never be able to balance out this game, what you need to do is play whatever that is broken, or don't play at all.

    When players themselves are more familiar with the PVP than the actual DEV, you know it has all gone to hell. You want balance gaming experience? Play a HR/GWF. Done deal.

    Really not trying to be negative here, but the DEV never listen to the people who actually know what they are talking, if DEV ever did, the game would be balanced already. So yes blame the DEV, but don't blame the game, just adapt and play.

    Honorable mention: If anyone still recall the old days when TR can 1-2 shot people, and the infamous tene aka HACK build? Looks like it is HR's turn to take the crown now.
  • harrivengerharrivenger Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    Leaving a game for nerfs is bull****s.. you are gonna to be nerfed and buffed again every day. You are playing an mmo after all what did you expect?

    Can't agreed more.
    Harrivenger (Master Infiltrator)
    Ebony (Whisperknife)

  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    The leaderboard is full of HRs.....yet HRs are getting buffed overall in module 4. Sounds about right.

    Also, one of the HRs on the leaderboards has 204 wins and only 1 loss but I'm sure cryptic wants to preserve the integrity of their game and has looked into it right :rolleyes:

    And that's why I don't believe in the leaderboards... You're not looking at WHY he's there, just that he's there. Looking at that board is NOT the way to discern balance...

    -what was his team comps?(cuz I'm 100% sure he didn't just pug all those matches)
    -was he running premade?(same reasoning)
    -does he have BiS gear?
    -was he node contesting?
    -was he working with his premade comp, or was carried?

    These questions ARE NOT answered by looking at a base leaderboard...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    slushlikewind wrote: »
    Honorable mention: If anyone still recall the old days when TR can 1-2 shot people, and the infamous tene aka HACK build? Looks like it is HR's turn to take the crown now.

    I hear ya on this. I end up arguing with supposed "played since beta" players that refuse that this even existed...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    williep30 wrote: »
    And that's why I don't believe in the leaderboards... You're not looking at WHY he's there, just that he's there. Looking at that board is NOT the way to discern balance...

    -what was his team comps?(cuz I'm 100% sure he didn't just pug all those matches)
    -was he running premade?(same reasoning)
    -does he have BiS gear?
    -was he node contesting?
    -was he working with his premade comp, or was carried?

    These questions ARE NOT answered by looking at a base leaderboard...

    Nope, none of your bullet points are what I'm getting at.

    I'll just say that there are certain topics that are frowned upon on the forums and I hope the devs/someone will pick up on this.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    slushlikewind wrote: »
    Well DEV would never be able to balance out this game, what you need to do is play whatever that is broken, or don't play at all.

    When players themselves are more familiar with the PVP than the actual DEV, you know it has all gone to hell. You want balance gaming experience? Play a HR/GWF. Done deal.

    Really not trying to be negative here, but the DEV never listen to the people who actually know what they are talking, if DEV ever did, the game would be balanced already. So yes blame the DEV, but don't blame the game, just adapt and play.

    Honorable mention: If anyone still recall the old days when TR can 1-2 shot people, and the infamous tene aka HACK build? Looks like it is HR's turn to take the crown now.

    I never expect any dev of any game to be part of the top-100 players in the game.

    A player who plays for hours each day for the better part of the week will have more experience than a dev who has to do a lot of coding.

    What I am concerned about is that after watching every single live stream, the devs seemed to belong to the lower pvp bracket.

    I somewhat disagree with the statement that the devs must listen to certain players because as we have seen on this forum and in-game, there are a lot of disagreements between players on a lot of aspects. Sure, everyone agrees that GWF's roar is currently broken, but when you start to talk about buffing CWs and nerfing TRs, you'll see a lot of disagreements.

    I think a few of the devs needs to start working on their PVP games. Queue against premades with their own premades. Queue solo. I'm not expecting for any of them to be on the top 20 pages, but at least show some competence. Devs need to see these issues firsthand and understand the underlying concepts of high end PVP.
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    Nope, none of your bullet points are what I'm getting at.

    I'll just say that there are certain topics that are frowned upon on the forums and I hope the devs/someone will pick up on this.

    Ah, I see I think. Your post sounded like it was a nerf cry based solely on the leaderboard standings, which people have already said the leaderboard is stacked with not enough data for people to make judgements based on...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    velynna wrote: »
    Well, then. I guess I'll stop bothering. Always great to see the community write unhelpful, resigned things like "balance isn't possible," "it's f2p," etc.

    By the way, making HRs incredibly difficult to kill, for example, does not really equal profit for Cryptic. I'm talking about class balance, not gear balance, which isn't that tied to profit for Cryptic. Except in the way that it will LOSE them profit by creating problems with player retention.

    But you know, whatever, class balance isn't possible, free to play game, D&D doesn't include PvP, life's not fair, and so on. Let's just get all these unnecessary comments out of the way so that we can actually discuss what the issues in the game are and what might be done.


    Its true tho, they do profit the most from imbalances. Its a bit of a gamble since frustrated people with a lvl 60 toon worth 100-200 euroes in Zen, who get smashed in PVP patch after patch may either roll a new class and spent 200 more or leave the game for good. But most people who complain are actually already hooked. They will roll the FotM and keep paying..I mean playing
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • slushlikewindslushlikewind Member Posts: 272 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    rashylewizz wrote: »
    I never expect any dev of any game to be part of the top-100 players in the game.

    A player who plays for hours each day for the better part of the week will have more experience than a dev who has to do a lot of coding.

    What I am concerned about is that after watching every single live stream, the devs seemed to belong to the lower pvp bracket.

    I somewhat disagree with the statement that the devs must listen to certain players because as we have seen on this forum and in-game, there are a lot of disagreements between players on a lot of aspects. Sure, everyone agrees that GWF's roar is currently broken, but when you start to talk about buffing CWs and nerfing TRs, you'll see a lot of disagreements.

    I think a few of the devs needs to start working on their PVP games. Queue against premades with their own premades. Queue solo. I'm not expecting for any of them to be on the top 20 pages, but at least show some competence. Devs need to see these issues firsthand and understand the underlying concepts of high end PVP.

    I can 1 v 5 a DEV team on my GWF, or I can find a HR from my guild to do the same thing. Because as we know it, DEV are horrible in PVP themselves, this is not a random assault but a objective comment after watching the video of DEV PVPing at the preview.

    Basically if you just draw 10 players from the current top PVP guilds and let them fix PVP, it would fix everything. Lots of people mumbling about changes don't understand what is the actual problem, like all I hear is ROAR is broken blah blah blah, believe me you can delete ROAR from the game but I can still go on my GWF and destroy anything 1 v 1 aside from top HR/GWF, even more for those non-skill people I can spec to sentinel right now and still destroy them without broken dmg, and yes I can beat even pathfinder HR with sent path because some HR

    Most top PVP player don't even come to the forum because in general this forum is full of XXXXXs.
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