Hopefully it doesn't get nerfed like that. 15% damage reflection is reasonable for us tanks who play in the riskiest manner possible, and it's probably the only reliable method that tanks will be able to contribute in terms of party DPS. Also, since we rarely get to attack as tanks, the effects our weapon enchants provide for the party is practically the only time we'll get to use the effects of our weapon enchantments, unlike the DPS classes.
We still don't know how Weapon Enchantments will truly interact with Guarded Assault as Crush mentioned that it's still set for a later patch, so we can't really say if it's OP or not from speculation. But what we can say for sure is that it sounds like a whole lot of fun. Just thinking about the many possible ways we can play with Guarded Assault tickles the mind!
I'm down for a fix for Guarded Assault's damage, as I'm guessing it's having a strange interaction with the powers and debuffs of other classes. But a non-bugged Guarded Assault, properly reflecting 15% of the enemy's damage is something we've been needing for so long as tanks. So please, devs, if by any chance you will be taking a look at Guarded Assault's damage interactions, please retain its current state. Fix the bugs, but it feels perfect as it is.
Fair points, however in PVP you will be using your weapon enchantments more. With GF getting the CON bonus to HP, need to monitor this reflect damage closely for pvp. The absolute worst build in other games is reflect tank, as in OP. They just sit there and other players die attacking them. I absolutely do not want to see this happen for neverwinter.
Fair points, however in PVP you will be using your weapon enchantments more. With GF getting the CON bonus to HP, need to monitor this reflect damage closely for pvp. The absolute worst build in other games is reflect tank, as in OP. They just sit there and other players die attacking them. I absolutely do not want to see this happen for neverwinter.
guarded assault isnt that great for pvp it's decent the damage is minimal but it is a reliable way to proc the protector capstone and hopefully weapon enchants which is the most benefit because hitting an opponent is tough while guarding and even more so if your sword master paragon
the reason it not being great in pvp is because the reflected damage does not ignore armor like some cw skills *cough*assailing force*cough but instead the enemy's DR/Deflect/tenacity are taken into account on the reflect so it evens out .
Do you think the new Into the Fray will take our reliance on the Knight Captain's set away? I sure hope so as I was running tests in the new dungeon and those mobs were destroying me when I had Knight's Valor up. KC is hardly a GF's toughest armour set, primarily due to the fact that it has zero deflection.
Unless of course the GF foregoes any sort of offensive load out and runs defensive enchants and items in every socket just so it can soak damage.
Conqueror seems to have have been destroyed in terms of team play. In terms of solo play it is just a beast. I was running train on mobs in Icewind without the need to block. Anvil was hitting for 35 - 40k non-crits with Mark applied and Crushing Pin enhanced Griffon's Wrath setting the hit up.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Go to the pass and try a duel vs HR, let us know if you still feel like cheating after that.. :P
Yeah, I know, after a few runs in the new Dungeon I got my *** Kicked by 2 HR's in IWD, one after the other, they are even more broken for PvP, it's all I can say.
Into the Fray: I absolutely LOVE this power, however I am concerned that this is probably a little too strong. Most GFs have atleast 40%+ DR, meaning this will be atleast 40% damage bonus. I honestly believe this should be capped at 80% of our DR. For more tanky GFs this would still be a 40%+ boost, for non-tanky GFs this would still be in the 30%s. I dont think it needs MUCH of a tone down, just a small one. BUT! Seriously good job on this as it feels AMAZING!
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I honestly dont think it's that overpowered. Considering wizards provided that and more on live, and GFs need to use 1 of 3 encounter slots to provide this buff, coupled with GF's low damage (test is not much different from live) I'd say this skill is what will make teams bring a GF.
-sniptheblub- Knights Challenge:Honestly, as much as I love the damage we can get, in light of our class actually being useful again in both PVE and PVP, I think this is one power that honestly needs a rework. Guardian Fighters can get TOO much single target damage with this, and I think its going to cause alot of issues (as seen above in PVE) and in PVP when a GF comes up to a proned target (from maybe a CW) does KC and hits (or crits) them for 15-20k+. Heck with ITF and KC we can get AT WILL crits for 12k+ in pvp.
Again, as much as I love this... I like the direction things are going and this is just causing issues and cheese in pvp.
Here is what I propose:
The GOAL of the ability is to force the enemy or incentive the enemy to attack the GF and make him pay if he doesnt...
- Knights Valor: protects the party and splits damage 50%.
- Into the Fray gives (my version) around a 40% damage bonus to all the party.
- So split the difference in a unique way for Knights Challenge:
Knight' s Challenge: Locks your enemy in combat "yada yada" Basically, its used LIKE "Knights Valor" in that it has no downtime UNLESS the GF toggles it off, then it starts the CD. It provides a 25% damage boost to the enemy your attacking for your attacks ONLY, and makes the opponent deal 25% LESS damage to any other target (ZERO damage bonus to you). This basically splits the benefits of KC and ITF, but only for 1 target, and I think alligns the power with its intentions. So this would mean YOU deal 25% more to that attacker, 25% less to any other opponent. Your Enemy deals 25% less to other teammates but 100% damage to you. (A GF would toggle this off to switch targets and put it on CD. Basically though its locking BOTH YOU and the target into combat).
This ALL reduces the ITF+KC damage boosts that allow crazy at will hits and crits (and reflects seen above). But KC now has more uptime, less "downside" for the GF and still provides group incentive.
Base: you deal 15% more damage to them, you and they deal 15% less to other opponants.
Rank 2: you deal 20% more damage to the target, you and they deal 20% less to others.
Rank 3: you deal 25% more damage to the target, you and they deal 25% less to others.
I think this would have good utility in both PVP and PVE and remove alot of the "cheese" factor.
GFs can NOW take a damage boost focus (no defensive focus) with ITF.
GFs can take a damage boost only for them, with defensive utility on ONE target (Knights Challenge)
Or they can go full defensive with Knights Valor.
I think these three powers offer each unique options without being TOO powerful.
KC is not a utility skill, at all. Mine is specced to add 110% damage. 25% Doesn't "cut" it. You got your reckless attacker ~ nerf, be happy with it. It would be nice if you could stop suggesting further nerfs. All this would accomplish, is reducing the GF overall dps aswell as spike damage and remember what we are lacking? Damage. This would be the death of our class tbh. -85% damage from all attacks aswell as debuffs. Your common sense should tell you, that the only viable weapon enchantment with such a silly change would be a p.vorpal. P.vorpal online? No, tyvm.
I'm not sure if this was for PVP or PVE. But - in PVP there are some people are seeming to be REALLY good at taking us out. I am not sure if it is a skill thing, or they are just using moves that slice through our block. Guarded Assault seems to work really well some fights, and do literally nothing other fights.
For instance, Fighting a Hunter Ranger, Guarded Assault actually heals them. Briartwine does too, so does SOS
Actually you can use all three at the same time, and it still heals them
Easy fix for briartwine is to make it so it can not be deflected.
KC is not a utility skill, at all. Mine is specced to add 110% damage. 25% Doesn't "cut" it. You got your reckless attacker ~ nerf, be happy with it. It would be nice if you could stop suggesting further nerfs. All this would accomplish, is reducing the GF overall dps aswell as spike damage and remember what we are lacking? Damage. This would be the death of our class tbh. -85% damage from all attacks aswell as debuffs. Your common sense should tell you, that the only viable weapon enchantment with such a silly change would be a p.vorpal. P.vorpal online? No, tyvm.
Mine is specced for that as well, which if you put points into it, it would be +35% damage with 100% uptime! Not the 110% damage with ~50% uptime we have now.
Also Crush made it pretty clear GFs are NOT DPS classes. Now that we have Into the Fray, you would be stupid to not invite GFs to a group, our value added isnt our DPS its our group Utility.
Weve already been over Reckless Attacker being a buff for majority of GFs, wont go there again. Especially at 3 stacks @ 10% each + 2% crit would bump up the "equivalent power" to 11,500 power. Plus now we can block and dont have to worry about losing. Its a dead horse at this point.
This would give the GF more viable damage boosts, since youd have 35% damage with 100% uptime, and it would NOT give the enemy a 100% damage boost to you - which is a MAJOR issue with the reflect damage ATM. So how do YOU propose to fix that? If a person hits you with 100% damage boost, that means your reflecting back 2x as much. See the posts from before.
I like the direction the GF is going, with ITF+KC yould have almost 100% uptime in PVE on:
+35% from feated KC thats up 100%.
+40-50% from ITF with about 80% uptime.
+30% from Reckless Capstone
+20% mark damage now + C.A.
(+ a nice boost to Crushing Surge - single target DPS)
Pretty soon people will just be LF 4m GF run because of all the tankiness and damage we can bring....
This issues KC is currently bringing to the table:
1) Reflect Damage in PVE
2) Cheese-ing people in PVP when your AT WILL hits for 8k+ and crits people for 12-14k+... A fellow GWF put it (your at will hits like my IBS) With KC+ITF. Again, we got alot of damage boosts and TONS of utility now to boot, KC can be redone for the benefit of the class, plus its only a 1v1 damager so its not like it REALLY helps a ton for PVE damage, so its merely PVP damage and if their intent is to give us these insane party damage boosts - like ~50% with ITF, we dont REALLY need +100% from KC thats just causing cheese issues.
Again, we are not intended to be a damage class. I am not saying we shouldnt deal damage, but we also (IMO) shouldnt be able to two-three shot people in PVP either... Thats just silly...
PLUS
When you look at the PURPOSE of Knights Challenge as it functions in PnP and how it "ideally" is supposed to function in this game. Its not a "UBER DEEPS" feat, its meant to cause the target to attack you and not an ally. It makes it dangerous for him to ignore you.
+25% (35% feated) with 100% uptime makes this an attractive feat for the GF while DECREASING the damage that enemy deals to any party member by 25% - again its prodding them to attack you...
It never was meant to be a "DEEPS" encounter. The only reason people havnt complained before is because GFs were never that great in competitive premades. Now that we have sizeable buffs, we not only DONT need this crutch, its arguable not even working as the skill is intended to function AND going to cause ALOT of crying on the forums when people are getting crit for 15-20k from a "tank class"
Which in turn will cause us to get a damage nerf later....
Weve already been over Reckless Attacker being a buff for majority of GFs, wont go there again. Especially at 3 stacks @ 10% each + 2% crit would bump up the "equivalent power" to 11,500 power. Plus now we can block and dont have to worry about losing. Its a dead horse at this point.
If I wouldn't know Neverwinter, reading your posts would make me think you are talking about a game that is in open beta, because all I read from you is ''change this, change that, make this work differently, and then twist that other thing to make it harmonize with the previously mentioned changes". This game is live since over a year now and completely changing how things work is at the present point in time a bad idea because unlike in open beta we have fewer newcomers and more veterans who grew to like their class and specced for the way it works.
Many of us, especially among the pve majority, never asked to become something different, we just wanted our class to become better based on what it currently is. Simply buffing the numbers as it was now done at the preview server with CON providing more hp is the way to go. (Did that cause fierce controversy, players of other classes complaining, bugs or the need to change further stuff? No, it didn't!)
I am willing to consider mild changes in our class mechanics, for example I think that the toggle mechanism of knight's valor is interesting, and could be fun. I am also not going to stand in anyones way who says "make this number a bit higher/lower". But what you and a few others, mainly pvp focused (that's the minor part of the game) players, want is to make something else out of our class. For example the Reckless Attacker feat that you mentioned: I never heard a GF saying something along the line of "I wish this capstone feat works differently, it should give me stacks".
I am somewhat puzzled that you pvp-focused guys don't pause and rethink the changes you lobby for in the face of all these new bugs, the numerous required consecutive changes, more than 100 tension filled pages in this thread about a class that is supposed to become better and more players even possibly leaving. There is an alternative to this.
In all honesty, Into the Fray would be extremely useful but not overpowered if it was 15+15+15.
That would still grant 45% of DR (which generally is somewhere between 40-60% at level 60) + 5% at 100% from Tactician feat
This would be too much a nerf.
GFs are giving up an encounter slot for this power. 45% of DR would only put it in the 20-25% damage boost range. Given that is doesnt have 100% uptime, this would be not so great...
Honestly 75% of DR seems adequate. This is in the range of 30-40% damage boost for the party.
Id still like to propose Knights Challenge change to do what it is indenting to do... And not a DPS encounter booster for GFs...
Knights Challenge:
"Challenge your target locking them into 1v1 combat. You deal +15% (base and +5% each rank +10 for feat) more damage to the target, you and your opponent deal 15%(+5% for each feat) less damage to anyone else.
This ability is toggled like Knights Valor so it can have 100% uptime.
Idea is it provides a damage boost for the GF, without the downside of receiving any damage boosted against the GF. It also alleviates damage for the party. - Just an idea.
I think the double damage/half damage thing is maybe too extreme. But just reducing it down, seems like it would then be lackluster...
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
25% damage for everyone is hardly *only*, especially when Tacticians could then increase that to 30%
Compare it with say Divine Glow (DC) and Battle Fury (GWF), which are the closest similar powers and which also do not have 100% uptime.
Also, what else would I slot as a GF instead of the buffed Into The Fray in a party situation?
In Mod 4, the BiS party situation encounters are Into the fray, enforced threat, knights valor. Iron Warrior or lunging strike have considerably less utility in party play.
By lowering Into The Fray to a more realistic number (and potentially adjusting some other weaker powers), it will not become an absolute must-have encounter power in party, pvp and even solo play.
25% damage for everyone is hardly *only*, especially when Tacticians could then increase that to 30%
Compare it with say Divine Glow (DC) and Battle Fury (GWF), which are the closest similar powers and which also do not have 100% uptime.
Also, what else would I slot as a GF instead of the buffed Into The Fray in a party situation?
In Mod 4, the BiS party situation encounters are Into the fray, enforced threat, knights valor. Iron Warrior or lunging strike have considerably less utility in party play.
By lowering Into The Fray to a more realistic number (and potentially adjusting some other weaker powers), it will not become an absolute must-have encounter power in party, pvp and even solo play.
Iron Warrior is a self buff and Knight's Valour is a party buff: that is the difference.
You could readily exchange both if you need more survivability yourself and try to better get Threat with your attacks; although Iron Warrior now does not seem to give enough to the Guardian Fighter for an Encounter slot and the time needed to cast it.
Into the Fray is one of the best party buffs and the reasoning behind it seems to be that this class shall excel at support and not at tanking or damage.
"40% damage as Piercing Damage" - This damage bypasses all DR and cannot be deflected. So they are dealing ALOT of damage through our block, that we then spit back at 15% at them, which then gets mitigated by their DR and since they can deflect it, they get hit for very little and proc their wilds medicine.
I dont know why they keep giving people skills that bypass defenses. Honestly if you think about it, this doesnt effect PVE at all since its super easy to get 24% ARP and top out, but it affects PVP a ton and makes things really hard to balance...
I agree with this, my protector GF doesn't feel happy when a TR bypasses all my DR (Defense, Tenacity and Deflect) and now HR is going to do that too?, hell no .
EDIT: Now that I remember, does someone know with SoS sometimes deactive like 1-2 second after I use it?.
This has been fixed locally and will be returning before this goes live!
That is interesting to hear. Thanks.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited July 2014
Awww xD!!! Why did you have to do that to Guarded Assault xD!?!? I was able to heal for 23k when I had Fighter's Recovery + Guarded Assault when blocking damage from the new dungeon lol!! Those things hit so god **** hard! With Knight's Valor on, and only ONE ally about to be attacked. I was ONE shotted for 34k HP. That means that mob could hit 60k+ damage since I only intercepted HALF of the damage my CW took using Knight's Valor lol. Looks like the protector tree is gonna be a MUST have for that dungeon.
After looking at the construction of the various powers involved it is unlikely they will be able to activate weapon enchantments until a whole rework happens on the enchantment side. Sorry guys. You will have to make do with spreading your capstone feat and distracting shield.
ugh what a bummer was so hope'ing for this oh well cant have everything i guess maybe in mod 5 who knows it theoretically should proc weapon enchants but... anyway can you clarify if strong grasping roots and icy rays is still suppose to penetrate through cc immune block wouldnt the root effect of them be canceled out?
@Crush I would like to know what is the though process behind the Conqueror and Protector capstone activations? Why Conqueror (DPS spec) should wait for someone to hit him to have more dmg and in the other side why Protector (tanking spec) should have to attack (having low dps) to proc the debuff? Shouldn't they both activated on the same way, doing damage, or just be the other way around.
Conqueror = Attack to do more DMG
Protector = Tank to debuff
Some reasoning would be clarifying on this matter.
Thanks in advance for all the hard work you guys are doing to improve this class!
because that would be to easy and then we wouldnt have protectors proccing on guarded
If that's the issue just make it so both work the same way, doing damage. As it is right now we don't have control over our damage this way in PVP, PVE should be quite easy.
Issue is if its JUST on dealing damage, 5 hits is too many with a 10 second duration. So then capstone needs to be dropped to 3 stacks.
If its 3 stacks, the damage and crit per stack need to be rebalanced. Right now its 5%/2% @ 5 stacks, so with 3 stacks it should be 10% damage and 3% crit.
This was deemed TOO much for a "non dps class" on their capstone. So my solution was to add 5% BASE crit to our T4 combat supreriority feat, then the capstone can be 3 stacks at 10% damage and 2% crit.
This makes it a total of 30% damage and 6% crit, with 5% crit added to the T4.. This seems balanced and since WE proc it from attacking, more than fair with a 10 sec CD.
@Crush I would like to know what is the though process behind the Conqueror and Protector capstone activations? Why Conqueror (DPS spec) should wait for someone to hit him to have more dmg and in the other side why Protector (tanking spec) should have to attack (having low dps) to proc the debuff? Shouldn't they both activated on the same way, doing damage, or just be the other way around.
Conqueror = Attack to do more DMG
Protector = Tank to debuff
Some reasoning would be clarifying on this matter.
Thanks in advance for all the hard work you guys are doing to improve this class!
If reckless attacker gets changed to gain the feats when you attack then conq gf will be much worse....
It gains stacks when being attacked because no matter who you are fighting, you take dmg more and faster than you attack so its better.
Think about fighting a hr for example, how many times do you actually hit him ? only when your encounter rotations are up and your way would mean having no stack for first hit and only about 3 for the last, the current way is 5 stacks through the whole fight.
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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jpfm101Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
because that would be to easy and then we wouldnt have protectors proccing on guarded
That is precisely where the problem is, for the protector's capstone to be trully viable, you need to slot in Guarded Assault.
Changing it so that it reduced damage everytime you guard an attack (just like the Distracting Shield heroic feat) would open space for the other class features and would be more synergic with the rest of the tree.
There wouldn't be much of a playstyle difference because to proc Guarded Assualt, you also need to block.
This would add yet another reason for the tree to be more appealing since most people around only seems to have eyes for the Conqueror tree.
Eddit: Just look at the Protector's capstone feat name: Iron Guard....currently there is nothing related to guarding/blocking in it...this proposed change would also make the description match it's name.
i suppose it would make guarded assault a must have for conquerors crixus is right i believe the way it works now is better
Unless it was swapped to a lower charge count like 3 stacks that we apply when dealing damage.
The issue is GFs are now good "group" players, meaning we wont be playing 1v1 a ton. Ok well who is going to attack a "tank" when they can attack the teammate.
This makes it very hard to run anything.
I think Conq needs to be on dealing damage but at fewer stacks and Prot needs to be upon TAKING damage - like mentioned above.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I thought of this as using Guarded Assault against a TR with Bile would be a great counter to Perma's...
It is. I just faught a perma steath TR, who was full potted + stone. And he couldn't defeat me lol. Guarded Assault + Shield Talent + Iron Warrior + Frontline + Bull Charge + SoS + High Recovery = Dead Perma Stealth TR lol.
It is. I just faught a perma steath TR, who was full potted + stone. And he couldn't defeat me lol. Guarded Assault + Shield Talent + Iron Warrior + Frontline + Bull Charge + SoS + High Recovery = Dead Perma Stealth TR lol.
Yep you guys can rejoice lol , the passive-aggresive, chain-prone GF just got very viable
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
After looking at the construction of the various powers involved it is unlikely they will be able to activate weapon enchantments until a whole rework happens on the enchantment side. Sorry guys. You will have to make do with spreading your capstone feat and distracting shield.
Speaking of enchants
Is there any update on when Armour Enchants are going to be reworked/changed? Briartwine/Fireburst/Thunderhead/Negation could be good and help trigger GF skills but currently they are very long duration weak effects etc
Id still like to see Knights Challenge get some sort of re-work. My personal opinion is its causing too much damage in PVP.
Also Reckless stacks really need to be re-done so we apply them, sometimes its rather frustrating if you dont get attacked and you lose alot of damage... Without ways to "aggro" or "taunt" opponents in PVP, it can be annoying not having your capstone up - which is one of the big complaints with it.
Look, you can stop the usual spam. You and your bff aren't even using knight's challenge (if i remember you guys even stated that the skill is useless and only newbies like it.), you probably just got killed with your tank - spec by KC (or are afraid, to.). KC is perfect as it is. A fully dps/burst specced GF has to sacrifice a GS of around 6-7k, of it's defensive attributes, along with 8%+ of tenacity, in order to get big hits going. The drawback is, we have no defense, except lifesteal. And nope, a profound set user is not fully dps oriented, neither is a GF in Black ice gear. These facts aside, all that KC needs is the bug fixes which i filed in a separate thread. KC - bugs
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I told you, the way the new reckless attacker applies it's stacks is terrible. Now, WEEKS later, you realize it, too. Yet you guys claim that you know it all, while in reality, you don't know what you are doing, at all. You insisted on having the opinion, that the new RA is better than the old one, while i was heavily against it. I can see upcoming problems with skills/boons/feats even before i get to test them ingame, that's something you're unable to. And it also shows that i'm quite good at playing GF.
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I recommend you, to not only look at things from your own perspective (which is too flawed, anyway) and rather try to view changes from every possible point of view, there is. This game isn't the Ayroux show, after all. Play your prone - spec, that every other GF uses, while i'm playing my squishy dps spec. Peace.
Look, you can stop the usual spam. You and your bff aren't even using knight's challenge (if i remember you guys even stated that the skill is useless and only newbies like it.), you probably just got killed with your tank - spec by KC (or are afraid, to.). KC is perfect as it is. A fully dps/burst specced GF has to sacrifice a GS of around 6-7k, of it's defensive attributes, along with 8%+ of tenacity, in order to get big hits going. The drawback is, we have no defense, except lifesteal. And nope, a profound set user is not fully dps oriented, neither is a GF in Black ice gear. These facts aside, all that KC needs is the bug fixes which i filed in a separate thread. KC - bugs
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I told you, the way the new reckless attacker applies it's stacks is terrible. Now, WEEKS later, you realize it, too. Yet you guys claim that you know it all, while in reality, you don't know what you are doing, at all. You insisted on having the opinion, that the new RA is better than the old one, while i was heavily against it. I can see upcoming problems with skills/boons/feats even before i get to test them ingame, that's something you're unable to. And it also shows that i'm quite good at playing GF.
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I recommend you, to not only look at things from your own perspective (which is too flawed, anyway) and rather try to view changes from every possible point of view, there is. This game isn't the Ayroux show, after all. Play your prone - spec, that every other GF uses, while i'm playing my squishy dps spec. Peace.
i'm not playing GF so i won't speak about good or bad modif for this class but thank to put this guy in the right place as each time he got beaten once by a build or a class he come and crying to nerf it (he lost on previous against one of the actual best CW and come on CW comment to cry for nerf and ask for change so CW won't even do enough damage to overcome is regen ability + don't even care about what the impact may give in other aspect of the game like solo pve or dongeon)
i'm not playing GF so i won't speak about good or bad modif for this class but thank to put this guy in the right place as each time he got beaten once by a build or a class he come and crying to nerf it (he lost on previous against one of the actual best CW and come on CW comment to cry for nerf and ask for change so CW won't even do enough damage to overcome is regen ability + don't even care about what the impact may give in other aspect of the game like solo pve or dongeon)
For CCmanager
Sorry to post it but it have to come out
I never lost to any CW, so I think you have me confused with someone else bro. As for Colonel, KC is fine on LIVE but not only is it getting changed to we can cancel it any any time, we also got a massive DPS buff with Into the Fray/Mark which is now going to cause alot of QQ in PVP because my Crushing Surge can crit for 15k in PVP right now... Do YOU think its "fine" when an at will can crit for just as much as the hardest hitting Encounter (IBS on a GWF)? To me that says something is wrong. Yes it takes two encounters to do that, but ITF will have 75%+ uptime, and KC is on command. Then all you need to do is at will and it HITS for 8k.... Its going to cause some QQ I promise (there has already been alot on PTR testing but rarely do people come and post because they feel its pointless).
So while we have the DEVs attention I am trying to not only head this off now, but make it fair and balanced. Which is why I also state its MY OPINION on matters.
To your stacking - I never said it wasnt going to be a problem, Ive been posting for a LONG time how it should be 3 stacks @ 10% dmg and 4% crit that WE apply when attacking. At 5 stacks, its still not BAD but its something that we dont control - which can be frustrating. If it goes live, itll STILL be much better than current RA and current block functions hands down. If you dont believe me, we ran a test with Bouncehams rocking 14k power in a pvp game premade that was arranged and we went UNDER 10 kills and had like 30-40 deaths in the game. Could he hit hard? Mildly hard, but when he got attacked he dies VERY quickly. He was nearly worthless in the PVP game. Its not even a questions the QoL has improved for GFs in mod 4 even with the current changes - that could be imporved.
I am looking at ALL perspectives - which is why I think its rather broken to keep ITF+KC as is. NOT because 1v1 its OP, but because a CW can roll in, ET or Shard you for north of 4 seconds while the GF comes up and 2 shots you. IF we are to take Crush's "Intent" that the GF is not supposed to be a DPS class, why is he the only one that can 2 shot players with KC or at will crit for 15k with ITF+KC? The issue IMO isnt ITF because thats a great tool in our belt, the issue is KC...
A fellow GF even agrees its probably too much, but he said to me "we have been underpowered so long, just let it be so we can be OP for atleast a little while" - is that the right approach? Or is it to create balance...
EDIT: I was just corrected, the GF went around "24 kills with 82 deaths"... This was full Power Stack Conq on LIVE.
Not really sure whats happening hopefully someone can explain.
I pull a grp of mobs go into guard stance and after about 2sec my shield meter starts flashing red (like it broke) but underneath i can still see a nearly full blue guard meter. Also I stay in guard stance it doesnt drop me out like normal when shield breaks.
Once the meter starts flashing red hundreds of "you take 1 damage from shield break" followed by "your bloack absorbs 1 damage". I also dont seem to reflect damage once the flashing starts.
If i drop the shield and raise it again the flashing stops and my meter is full.
Is this a known issue or is tis how its supposed to work?
Thanks for the help.
Comments
Fair points, however in PVP you will be using your weapon enchantments more. With GF getting the CON bonus to HP, need to monitor this reflect damage closely for pvp. The absolute worst build in other games is reflect tank, as in OP. They just sit there and other players die attacking them. I absolutely do not want to see this happen for neverwinter.
the reason it not being great in pvp is because the reflected damage does not ignore armor like some cw skills *cough*assailing force*cough but instead the enemy's DR/Deflect/tenacity are taken into account on the reflect so it evens out .
Unless of course the GF foregoes any sort of offensive load out and runs defensive enchants and items in every socket just so it can soak damage.
Conqueror seems to have have been destroyed in terms of team play. In terms of solo play it is just a beast. I was running train on mobs in Icewind without the need to block. Anvil was hitting for 35 - 40k non-crits with Mark applied and Crushing Pin enhanced Griffon's Wrath setting the hit up.
Yeah, I know, after a few runs in the new Dungeon I got my *** Kicked by 2 HR's in IWD, one after the other, they are even more broken for PvP, it's all I can say.
I honestly dont think it's that overpowered. Considering wizards provided that and more on live, and GFs need to use 1 of 3 encounter slots to provide this buff, coupled with GF's low damage (test is not much different from live) I'd say this skill is what will make teams bring a GF.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
KC is not a utility skill, at all. Mine is specced to add 110% damage. 25% Doesn't "cut" it. You got your reckless attacker ~ nerf, be happy with it. It would be nice if you could stop suggesting further nerfs. All this would accomplish, is reducing the GF overall dps aswell as spike damage and remember what we are lacking? Damage. This would be the death of our class tbh. -85% damage from all attacks aswell as debuffs. Your common sense should tell you, that the only viable weapon enchantment with such a silly change would be a p.vorpal. P.vorpal online? No, tyvm.
Easy fix for briartwine is to make it so it can not be deflected.
Mine is specced for that as well, which if you put points into it, it would be +35% damage with 100% uptime! Not the 110% damage with ~50% uptime we have now.
Also Crush made it pretty clear GFs are NOT DPS classes. Now that we have Into the Fray, you would be stupid to not invite GFs to a group, our value added isnt our DPS its our group Utility.
Weve already been over Reckless Attacker being a buff for majority of GFs, wont go there again. Especially at 3 stacks @ 10% each + 2% crit would bump up the "equivalent power" to 11,500 power. Plus now we can block and dont have to worry about losing. Its a dead horse at this point.
This would give the GF more viable damage boosts, since youd have 35% damage with 100% uptime, and it would NOT give the enemy a 100% damage boost to you - which is a MAJOR issue with the reflect damage ATM. So how do YOU propose to fix that? If a person hits you with 100% damage boost, that means your reflecting back 2x as much. See the posts from before.
I like the direction the GF is going, with ITF+KC yould have almost 100% uptime in PVE on:
+35% from feated KC thats up 100%.
+40-50% from ITF with about 80% uptime.
+30% from Reckless Capstone
+20% mark damage now + C.A.
(+ a nice boost to Crushing Surge - single target DPS)
Pretty soon people will just be LF 4m GF run because of all the tankiness and damage we can bring....
This issues KC is currently bringing to the table:
1) Reflect Damage in PVE
2) Cheese-ing people in PVP when your AT WILL hits for 8k+ and crits people for 12-14k+... A fellow GWF put it (your at will hits like my IBS) With KC+ITF. Again, we got alot of damage boosts and TONS of utility now to boot, KC can be redone for the benefit of the class, plus its only a 1v1 damager so its not like it REALLY helps a ton for PVE damage, so its merely PVP damage and if their intent is to give us these insane party damage boosts - like ~50% with ITF, we dont REALLY need +100% from KC thats just causing cheese issues.
Again, we are not intended to be a damage class. I am not saying we shouldnt deal damage, but we also (IMO) shouldnt be able to two-three shot people in PVP either... Thats just silly...
PLUS
When you look at the PURPOSE of Knights Challenge as it functions in PnP and how it "ideally" is supposed to function in this game. Its not a "UBER DEEPS" feat, its meant to cause the target to attack you and not an ally. It makes it dangerous for him to ignore you.
+25% (35% feated) with 100% uptime makes this an attractive feat for the GF while DECREASING the damage that enemy deals to any party member by 25% - again its prodding them to attack you...
It never was meant to be a "DEEPS" encounter. The only reason people havnt complained before is because GFs were never that great in competitive premades. Now that we have sizeable buffs, we not only DONT need this crutch, its arguable not even working as the skill is intended to function AND going to cause ALOT of crying on the forums when people are getting crit for 15-20k from a "tank class"
Which in turn will cause us to get a damage nerf later....
Many of us, especially among the pve majority, never asked to become something different, we just wanted our class to become better based on what it currently is. Simply buffing the numbers as it was now done at the preview server with CON providing more hp is the way to go. (Did that cause fierce controversy, players of other classes complaining, bugs or the need to change further stuff? No, it didn't!)
I am willing to consider mild changes in our class mechanics, for example I think that the toggle mechanism of knight's valor is interesting, and could be fun. I am also not going to stand in anyones way who says "make this number a bit higher/lower". But what you and a few others, mainly pvp focused (that's the minor part of the game) players, want is to make something else out of our class. For example the Reckless Attacker feat that you mentioned: I never heard a GF saying something along the line of "I wish this capstone feat works differently, it should give me stacks".
I am somewhat puzzled that you pvp-focused guys don't pause and rethink the changes you lobby for in the face of all these new bugs, the numerous required consecutive changes, more than 100 tension filled pages in this thread about a class that is supposed to become better and more players even possibly leaving. There is an alternative to this.
This would be too much a nerf.
GFs are giving up an encounter slot for this power. 45% of DR would only put it in the 20-25% damage boost range. Given that is doesnt have 100% uptime, this would be not so great...
Honestly 75% of DR seems adequate. This is in the range of 30-40% damage boost for the party.
Id still like to propose Knights Challenge change to do what it is indenting to do... And not a DPS encounter booster for GFs...
Knights Challenge:
"Challenge your target locking them into 1v1 combat. You deal +15% (base and +5% each rank +10 for feat) more damage to the target, you and your opponent deal 15%(+5% for each feat) less damage to anyone else.
This ability is toggled like Knights Valor so it can have 100% uptime.
Idea is it provides a damage boost for the GF, without the downside of receiving any damage boosted against the GF. It also alleviates damage for the party. - Just an idea.
I think the double damage/half damage thing is maybe too extreme. But just reducing it down, seems like it would then be lackluster...
Compare it with say Divine Glow (DC) and Battle Fury (GWF), which are the closest similar powers and which also do not have 100% uptime.
Also, what else would I slot as a GF instead of the buffed Into The Fray in a party situation?
In Mod 4, the BiS party situation encounters are Into the fray, enforced threat, knights valor. Iron Warrior or lunging strike have considerably less utility in party play.
By lowering Into The Fray to a more realistic number (and potentially adjusting some other weaker powers), it will not become an absolute must-have encounter power in party, pvp and even solo play.
Iron Warrior is a self buff and Knight's Valour is a party buff: that is the difference.
You could readily exchange both if you need more survivability yourself and try to better get Threat with your attacks; although Iron Warrior now does not seem to give enough to the Guardian Fighter for an Encounter slot and the time needed to cast it.
Into the Fray is one of the best party buffs and the reasoning behind it seems to be that this class shall excel at support and not at tanking or damage.
I agree with this, my protector GF doesn't feel happy when a TR bypasses all my DR (Defense, Tenacity and Deflect) and now HR is going to do that too?, hell no
EDIT: Now that I remember, does someone know with SoS sometimes deactive like 1-2 second after I use it?.
That is interesting to hear. Thanks.
Great, thank you.
ugh what a bummer was so hope'ing for this oh well cant have everything i guess maybe in mod 5 who knows it theoretically should proc weapon enchants but... anyway can you clarify if strong grasping roots and icy rays is still suppose to penetrate through cc immune block wouldnt the root effect of them be canceled out?
because that would be to easy and then we wouldnt have protectors proccing on guarded
Issue is if its JUST on dealing damage, 5 hits is too many with a 10 second duration. So then capstone needs to be dropped to 3 stacks.
If its 3 stacks, the damage and crit per stack need to be rebalanced. Right now its 5%/2% @ 5 stacks, so with 3 stacks it should be 10% damage and 3% crit.
This was deemed TOO much for a "non dps class" on their capstone. So my solution was to add 5% BASE crit to our T4 combat supreriority feat, then the capstone can be 3 stacks at 10% damage and 2% crit.
This makes it a total of 30% damage and 6% crit, with 5% crit added to the T4.. This seems balanced and since WE proc it from attacking, more than fair with a 10 sec CD.
If reckless attacker gets changed to gain the feats when you attack then conq gf will be much worse....
It gains stacks when being attacked because no matter who you are fighting, you take dmg more and faster than you attack so its better.
Think about fighting a hr for example, how many times do you actually hit him ? only when your encounter rotations are up and your way would mean having no stack for first hit and only about 3 for the last, the current way is 5 stacks through the whole fight.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That is precisely where the problem is, for the protector's capstone to be trully viable, you need to slot in Guarded Assault.
Changing it so that it reduced damage everytime you guard an attack (just like the Distracting Shield heroic feat) would open space for the other class features and would be more synergic with the rest of the tree.
There wouldn't be much of a playstyle difference because to proc Guarded Assualt, you also need to block.
This would add yet another reason for the tree to be more appealing since most people around only seems to have eyes for the Conqueror tree.
Eddit: Just look at the Protector's capstone feat name: Iron Guard....currently there is nothing related to guarding/blocking in it...this proposed change would also make the description match it's name.
Unless it was swapped to a lower charge count like 3 stacks that we apply when dealing damage.
The issue is GFs are now good "group" players, meaning we wont be playing 1v1 a ton. Ok well who is going to attack a "tank" when they can attack the teammate.
This makes it very hard to run anything.
I think Conq needs to be on dealing damage but at fewer stacks and Prot needs to be upon TAKING damage - like mentioned above.
It is. I just faught a perma steath TR, who was full potted + stone. And he couldn't defeat me lol. Guarded Assault + Shield Talent + Iron Warrior + Frontline + Bull Charge + SoS + High Recovery = Dead Perma Stealth TR lol.
Yep you guys can rejoice lol , the passive-aggresive, chain-prone GF just got very viable
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Speaking of enchants
Is there any update on when Armour Enchants are going to be reworked/changed? Briartwine/Fireburst/Thunderhead/Negation could be good and help trigger GF skills but currently they are very long duration weak effects etc
Look, you can stop the usual spam. You and your bff aren't even using knight's challenge (if i remember you guys even stated that the skill is useless and only newbies like it.), you probably just got killed with your tank - spec by KC (or are afraid, to.). KC is perfect as it is. A fully dps/burst specced GF has to sacrifice a GS of around 6-7k, of it's defensive attributes, along with 8%+ of tenacity, in order to get big hits going. The drawback is, we have no defense, except lifesteal. And nope, a profound set user is not fully dps oriented, neither is a GF in Black ice gear. These facts aside, all that KC needs is the bug fixes which i filed in a separate thread. KC - bugs
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I told you, the way the new reckless attacker applies it's stacks is terrible. Now, WEEKS later, you realize it, too. Yet you guys claim that you know it all, while in reality, you don't know what you are doing, at all. You insisted on having the opinion, that the new RA is better than the old one, while i was heavily against it. I can see upcoming problems with skills/boons/feats even before i get to test them ingame, that's something you're unable to. And it also shows that i'm quite good at playing GF.
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I recommend you, to not only look at things from your own perspective (which is too flawed, anyway) and rather try to view changes from every possible point of view, there is. This game isn't the Ayroux show, after all. Play your prone - spec, that every other GF uses, while i'm playing my squishy dps spec. Peace.
i'm not playing GF so i won't speak about good or bad modif for this class but thank to put this guy in the right place as each time he got beaten once by a build or a class he come and crying to nerf it (he lost on previous against one of the actual best CW and come on CW comment to cry for nerf and ask for change so CW won't even do enough damage to overcome is regen ability + don't even care about what the impact may give in other aspect of the game like solo pve or dongeon)
For CCmanager
Sorry to post it but it have to come out
I never lost to any CW, so I think you have me confused with someone else bro. As for Colonel, KC is fine on LIVE but not only is it getting changed to we can cancel it any any time, we also got a massive DPS buff with Into the Fray/Mark which is now going to cause alot of QQ in PVP because my Crushing Surge can crit for 15k in PVP right now... Do YOU think its "fine" when an at will can crit for just as much as the hardest hitting Encounter (IBS on a GWF)? To me that says something is wrong. Yes it takes two encounters to do that, but ITF will have 75%+ uptime, and KC is on command. Then all you need to do is at will and it HITS for 8k.... Its going to cause some QQ I promise (there has already been alot on PTR testing but rarely do people come and post because they feel its pointless).
So while we have the DEVs attention I am trying to not only head this off now, but make it fair and balanced. Which is why I also state its MY OPINION on matters.
To your stacking - I never said it wasnt going to be a problem, Ive been posting for a LONG time how it should be 3 stacks @ 10% dmg and 4% crit that WE apply when attacking. At 5 stacks, its still not BAD but its something that we dont control - which can be frustrating. If it goes live, itll STILL be much better than current RA and current block functions hands down. If you dont believe me, we ran a test with Bouncehams rocking 14k power in a pvp game premade that was arranged and we went UNDER 10 kills and had like 30-40 deaths in the game. Could he hit hard? Mildly hard, but when he got attacked he dies VERY quickly. He was nearly worthless in the PVP game. Its not even a questions the QoL has improved for GFs in mod 4 even with the current changes - that could be imporved.
I am looking at ALL perspectives - which is why I think its rather broken to keep ITF+KC as is. NOT because 1v1 its OP, but because a CW can roll in, ET or Shard you for north of 4 seconds while the GF comes up and 2 shots you. IF we are to take Crush's "Intent" that the GF is not supposed to be a DPS class, why is he the only one that can 2 shot players with KC or at will crit for 15k with ITF+KC? The issue IMO isnt ITF because thats a great tool in our belt, the issue is KC...
A fellow GF even agrees its probably too much, but he said to me "we have been underpowered so long, just let it be so we can be OP for atleast a little while" - is that the right approach? Or is it to create balance...
EDIT: I was just corrected, the GF went around "24 kills with 82 deaths"... This was full Power Stack Conq on LIVE.
I pull a grp of mobs go into guard stance and after about 2sec my shield meter starts flashing red (like it broke) but underneath i can still see a nearly full blue guard meter. Also I stay in guard stance it doesnt drop me out like normal when shield breaks.
Once the meter starts flashing red hundreds of "you take 1 damage from shield break" followed by "your bloack absorbs 1 damage". I also dont seem to reflect damage once the flashing starts.
If i drop the shield and raise it again the flashing stops and my meter is full.
Is this a known issue or is tis how its supposed to work?
Thanks for the help.