This is the only solution I can see that would make a "Timed" guard at least feasible. It would basically work like block does now, but it would be useful for blocking rapid successive hits such as from a TR's DF. I still do not like the idea, and I feel the original mechanic buffed up a little is a far better solution. BUT if we are going to go down the road of a timed block, I think this is the only way it could work.
Ayroux, I've been a little harsh toward you, I will try to keep it toned down, but I want you to understand that myself and several others are very frustrated with you. A lot of this rolls over from the MoD3 GWF changes, you fought tooth and nail for buffs when the entire PvP community was disagreeing with you. You got your way and GWF has been a mess ever since. We see the same thing now happening with your ideas for GF.
You are respected and listened to by the Devs, just please take this seriously and do some testing (you were not even playing the game when you were advocating GWF buffs) and some consulting with other PvPers before you so passionately defend or endorse any idea you have.
I'll not comment on your posts anymore, there are plenty of others saying what needs to be said in a much more eloquent and productive manner.
I am very passionate about GF, and I get carried away sometimes, so I'm going to step back from this a bit.
I dont think ive ever asked for a GWF buff and i sure didnt ask for anything they rolled out in module 3... If anything ive been askimg for GF buffs as id love to play my GF again.
That said i am not fast either way with block being stamina based or damage based i AM against the block on live. It either needs to be buffed (although 200% seems a bit much).
Yup. GF just became the single best party DPS booster in game. Sweetness.
And concerning the guard change I posted a fix already in another thread. Have marked targets do less damage to guard meter. You buff marks, empower guard meter and improve GF survivability without reinventing the wheel.
One thing is guaranteed from my side. I will fight for my class and i won't let other (newer/clueless) GF - players ruin it just because they are not that good at playing said class. What needs to be done has been mentioned a hundred times by now. No timers, no stamina, no fancy new 80% dmg, none of this. We need the current block improved, not altered/revamped/destroyed.
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So please, if one isn't able to grasp/comprehend the easiest things/mechanics of the GF class, do not post/agree with useless or unneeded suggestions. Mmo's especially Neverwinter have taught me one thing, 1 player out of 500 players is actually good, the other 499 aren't and taking advice of said people is not the wisest decision to make.
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I try to fomulate this as calm and gentleman like as possible, BUT my patience is not infinite and the ignorance and idiocricy of certain posters is just too much for my taste.
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Again to clarify, i am not targetting somebody in particular, just stating some important facts.
Yup. GF just became the single best party DPS booster in game. Sweetness.
And concerning the guard change I posted a fix already in another thread. Have marked targets do less damage to guard meter. You buff marks, empower guard meter and improve GF survivability without reinventing the wheel.
I *THINK* that I've heard BEST CASE you can get maybe 15% bonus from Combat Advantage. Is that really worth bringing a class who will gimp the groups DPS? Mathematically it might barely beat out a group that does not have a GF buffing everyone, but in actual practice do people in PvE have a problem getting the CA bonus in dungeons the way it is now?
I do not know much about PvE but I think this is fairly accurate? Someone please confirm or show the numbers saying differently. And please, be honest, if its just your opinion or you just "THINK" that the numbers you are using are close or correct just say so like I did above.
Another thing I want to point out is: Whats with the sped up movement with Guard up? Is it intended? I hope not, cuz its really a silly view. The GF looks like a Formian trying a mating dance...[/COLOR]
I do not know if the increased movement speed while blocking is intended. It is a VERY nice improvement!! I don't care if it looks silly, it is a buff, and GF needs all it can get!
If it is intended, its great, I love it, leave it please!! If it is not intended I would not fault the devs for correcting it as it has the potential to be a little OP if the other things with GF are fixed properly.
Option 1: Revert back to LIVE version but buff the block meter substantially.
The Pros: Block can be "held" pre-emtively/indefinitely and is directly reduced by the number of hits/damage you take.
Cons: Big hits should IMO reduce a more substantial amount of block (IN MY OPINION). I think a 10-15k crit only reducing 1/4th of block meter is kinda stupid. But also a bunch of LITTLE hits taking away HALF of your block meter in seconds it stupid too.
Which leads me to option 2: Make Guard meter a FLAT damage pool. Previously mentioned was 10k - which is probably too small. I think 20k seems too high IMO, so maybe somewhere in the middle - I really have no idea. Theoretically a base of 10k, buffed up with gear/STR/feats could push it north of 20k so IDK.
Pros: Its easy to calculate and understand, small hits will take less block, big hits can wipe block out completely.
Cons: This is a VERY fine line between OP and horrible... too little damage and its worthless, too much GF = godmode (not the GF lol)
Option 3: Stamina based block. There are TWO ways you can swing this theory, neither of which are properly represented on the PTR currently.
Stamina #1: Block is a pure function of holding block via stamina, however, the GF needs a BIG stamina pool inorder to make this viable. Something around double what is currently offered on PTR. I am probably less in favor of this idea TBH.
Pros: If you time block correctly you can negate massive amounts of damage.
Cons: Its much harder to pre-emtively block, but it allows for MUCH better "reactive/timed" blocks.
Stamina #2: Block is a function of time UNDER ATTACK. So its a stamina based block meter - like on the PTR EXCEPT it doesnt diminish unless actually blocking blows. It doesnt take damage into any consideration here, just a pure matter of time blocking actual blows. This again though still needs a substantial boost as to what is on the PTR in terms of duration.
Pros: Allows for pre-emptive blocking and affords the GF opportunity to block a good duration of blows.
Cons: Doesnt factor in big hits of damage - which can either be a pro or con...
This is just my assessment, again the ONLY thing I am fast on are two things:
1) LIVE block sucks.
2) PTR block sucks.
Both live and PTR blocks CAN work but need re-working.
I STILL am a firm believer that for GFs Con should grant ARP and HP and Dex should grant Crit/deflect.
I still also think GFs weapon damage should get a buff overall to around the range of HR/CW weapon damage - this allows for better use of weapon enchants as well as slightly more damage - what is NEEDED.
I think a timer based guard is a good idea, before a single duelist flurry would burn it completely. but the timer needs to be longer, or at least just start depleting staming once you're hit. (even if you're hit just once)
I quoted you but I could have quoted other people with this idea of timed guard. It is clear for me : I do not like it.
If my guard is up, I am hit once and time passes, one way or another, it will be empty. So what is the purpose of guard if it is not available when it is needed ?
I would much prefer a guard system based on an amount of damages which scales with defense.
For example (random figures inside), a player can guard 50K damage. After taking 50K, guard is automatically down.
You can use Tide of Iron to refill it by 10% (actually the case), Enforced Threat and Into the Fray by 15% at least (a little more with encounters should be logic given the cooldown).
I understand now where the % over 8 seconds comes from. If it is instant, you can spam Tide of Iron. Maybe this power should refill the guard meter slowly like 2% each second for 5 seconds. Leave encounters instant or maybe 5% each second for 3 seconds. This way, someone can still manage to (make you) drop your guard.
I liked one idea from the forum (sorry, I do not remember who it is and in which thread I read it). Adding a stat to shields.
Depending on your shield, you can have more guard, better recharge time, or whatever can improve the gameplay with shields. This stuff should be useful, not only bring basic stats. This way, you can tweak some path feats to really differentiate each path and allow every build to have a common mechanic.
And no 80% damage reduction through shield please. I do not know what the boss damages are but I saw many people dying from the Beholder AoE. Taking 20% of this huge AoE + his attacks, there is no point in having a shield. I tanked it and stayed alive with a good timing in powers and dodging. Tanking should revolve around this more and not only running for your life (oops, I kite in many dungeons...).
Ehm, you will have a competent dc to keep you alive, no?
Serious or not ?
If a cleric can heal 20K/s, why not. But do not forget that dungeons are designed in a way where you do not need each class and can survive only with your powers/potions/skill (people run without GF afaik). I understood it like "bring the player, not the class".
like many people have said, the changes are aimed at actually need eachother more, make GFs more needed, make cleric more needed, make tr's more needed, etc. A tank shouldn't be able to tank bosses on his/her own with no help of a healer.
I STILL am a firm believer that for GFs Con should grant ARP and HP and Dex should grant Crit/deflect.
And i am against it, because stacking CON beyond a value of 19 on a GF is a terrible idea from the get go. The best stats at lvl 60 are: 21 STR, 19 CON and obviously 25 DEX, because arpen in PvP works wonders and generally has more worth coming from stats, rather than gimping us even more by receiving arpen from items.
like many people have said, the changes are aimed at actually need eachother more, make GFs more needed, make cleric more needed, make tr's more needed, etc. A tank shouldn't be able to tank bosses on his/her own with no help of a healer.
Tanks cannot/couldn't/will never be able to do this, BUT Trickster rogues can.
And i am against it, because stacking CON beyond a value of 19 on a GF is a terrible idea from the get go. The best stats at lvl 60 are: 21 STR, 19 CON and obviously 25 DEX, because arpen in PvP works wonders and generally has more worth coming from stats, rather than gimping us even more by receiving arpen from items.
Tanks cannot/couldn't/will never be able to do this, BUT Trickster rogues can.
How is stacking Con beyond 19 a terrible Idea LOL... Con has always been something to stackc for HP purposes from the get go - WAY back when the game started when tenebrous was king.
Im really lost on what your saying too... arp works wonders in pvp - gotcha and agree totally.
generally has more worth coming from stats - ok I get this too because dim returns.
rather than gimping us? - no idea how this would gimp you...
You NOW would be able to get ARP AND HP from CON, AND THEN! NOW actually get CRIT from DEX. You have 25 DEX? Ok thats 15% more crit.
ARP is something you can actually stack to higher values and still see benefit even until 3000, versus crit starts having pretty painful DR after even about 1500...
I cant help you if you rolled less Con... Thats a defensive stat that just got a real nice boost to HP. Looks like you went for more damage which with my suggestion would STILL boost your damage substantially - youd have about 6% less ARP but have 15% more crit.... maybe take some points in crit and put that into ARP or even power... Or heck, repsec and put more into Con....
The REASON this makes sense is because its the SAME benefits GWFs have and both classes are fighters.
It also puts Vorpal back on the table as a good enchant for GFs - just like every other class. Except pre-stat changes a good pvp GF would end up with maybe 19-23% crit (depending on spec) so now add 10-15% more too that.... 29-38% crit.
Why cant GFs who want to roll crit builds get nice crit too? Its real easy for a SENT GWF to have over 40% crit. Its really easy for a TR to have close to 50%....
like many people have said, the changes are aimed at actually need eachother more, make GFs more needed, make cleric more needed, make tr's more needed, etc. A tank shouldn't be able to tank bosses on his/her own with no help of a healer.
That is a great idea in theory, I really do like the idea of classes being necessary. Might make the content more challenging but enjoyable for the sense of achievement. In practice though I really don't want to have to ask a DPS character or Cleric to hold my hand when I do solo content (dailies). Decent timing of the old block system made solo PvE straight forward even if it takes 3-4 times longer than with my Wizard. The new stamina bar type just made my character defenceless.
Damage is a major issue and probably the biggest one for GF's right now.
I know a lot of people do not agree with that, however by saying this you are saying you do not believe a GF should be able to kill any other class in PvP... because, in general, all things equal, they cannot.
I have several videos of short 1v1's on test that I am trying to get approved to post up here so that some of the PvE crowd, and the Developers can see how horribly gimped GF is in PvP.
On a side note, our survivability is also terrible, we have no means of regenerating any HP which would be what is necessary to stay alive in pvp and play that "Tank" roll people are talking about. Our shield would be a mechanic to prevent burst damage, and also provide a method of protection while we regen.
BOTH of these options should be available to GF's as they are in nearly every other class. A tanky build, and a DPS build. Our Tanky build would be a little Tankier than other classes, and our "DPS" build should do a little less simply due to the nature of how a "Guardian" class is perceived by the masses.
I think stat reallocation is a realistic way to begin to achieve this, however I'm not sure who's method would be more effective (Ayroux's or Colonel's) and either would have to be monitored VERY closely as this could potentially make GF's way too powerful.
Either way if you look at how positively the constitution buff has been received (without even coming CLOSE to being Overpowered) I think it is clear that this is something that should be very seriously considered by the Development team.
I'd love to watch the videos, can you provide me with links via forum pm? If it's ok to you, of course.
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My GF is 12 matches away from a Headhunter title, there goes the myth of us not being able to kill others in PvP. I wonder why people are so narrow minded, we have three specs, not just one. Conqerors for dps/burst, Protectors for tanking purposes and the tactician for utility/CC purposes... They think a GF has got to be a tank, i guess.
You NOW would be able to get ARP AND HP from CON, AND THEN! NOW actually get CRIT from DEX. You have 25 DEX? Ok thats 15% more crit.
Sry, i misread. I am starting to like your suggestion, because even with 19 CON, the added crit would be a nice boost to our dps aswell as burst dmg. My bad. (I apologize)
My GF is 12 matches away from a Headhunter title, there goes the myth of us not being able to kill others in PvP. I wonder why people are so narrow minded, we have three specs, not just one. Conqerors for dps/burst, Protectors for tanking purposes and the tactician for utility/CC purposes... They think a GF has got to be a tank, i guess.
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I'd love to watch the videos, can you provide me with links via forum pm? If it's ok to you, of course.
Sry, i misread. I am starting to like your suggestion. My bad.
See we can all be friends oh this is irrelevant but if you want a fun GF video here is one I made pre-tenacity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s1U95zMCaw) unfortunately this cant be done anymore but it sure was fun!
Also, I wanted to point out a MAJOR issue with block on the PTR (aside from the issues weve discussed in this thread already) is the stupidly long recharge timer. ROUGH math is about 5 seconds of blocking with about 15 seconds (feated and geared) of recharge.
If block is to work on a stamina base, not only does the timer need to increase as to how long you can block, I still think it should only drain in combat, I also think recharge time needs to be cut roughly in half, AND upon leaving combat block should fully charge without re-charge. So leaving a fight fully re-charges it (BTW id like to see this work for TRs as well and their stealth)
So theoretically (based on the CURRENT PTR block) if it were buffed to say about 8 seconds of uptime, with about 8 seconds on recharge timer.. You could have some decent uptime.
Again the Con here is it requires more reactive/timed blocks rather than pre-emptive blocking... But this would (i think) alteast make it decent again. I think (LIVE AND PTR) what makes a GF feel so weak is outside block, GFs are just helpless turtles laying on their backs.
Its too easy to drain block, and too hard to gain it back.
Another way you COULD approach this is keep the crappy recharge block in place, but ADD a feature like determination on GWFs where taking damage recharges block faster based upon damage taken. Again, JUST AN IDEA - although id rather just see a flat recharge increase.
Overall - we all agree how it is on live AND ptr is NOT GOOD!!!!!
Another way you COULD approach this is keep the bleeppy recharge block in place, but ADD a feature like determination on GWFs where taking damage recharges block faster based upon damage taken. Again, JUST AN IDEA - although id rather just see a flat recharge increase.
This could be an addition to the protector's capstone, OMG i love this idea.
First just because I have my main in my sig doesn't mean I don't have other chars. Second, I never said I want the block mechanic to stay as it is, I only said that the good thing about it being timed is that a single DF won't burn though it, but if it's time based it should last longer. I've also said that my comments are aimed at PVE, it's what I do most and it's what most of the game content is about. An last, anyone has the same right to express their opinion. The devs will decide which opinions are best for what they're looking for.Asking someone else to not give their opinion is not the way to go.
trohkarr has a point, though. While we have the chance we should give proper feedback, instead of giving feedback in forms of speculative assumptions. I for example am playing nothing but GF and GWF since the very end of the closed beta. (i even abandoned my GWF in favor of creating a second GF, just when the GWF got buffed into god mode because i dislike these types of advantages and prefer a fair game/play.)
It is just logical, that people who stick to one class, know more about it than people who casually play it or just recently have picked it up. Practice makes the master, that's life.
Sadly, like I've said many times before, it's not up to you to decide whose feedback should be allowed or not to be told. All the people that play a class should be able to give their own opinions on the class, no matter how ill informed you or anyone else might think they are. it's that simple. the devs will choose the opinions they think are more informative.
Sadly, like I've said many times before, it's not up to you to decide whose feedback should be allowed or not to be told. All the people that play a class should be able to give their own opinions on the class, no matter how ill informed you or anyone else might think they are. it's that simple. the devs will choose the opinions they think are more informative.
I never claimed this either way. The fact is though, that i and the other "seasoned" GF's will continue to question certain types of approaches regarding the matter. It is up to the newcomers to either learn a thing or two, or stay narrow minded and continue living in their pink bubble of delusion.
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In other words: Quality should matter more than, quantity.
I never claimed this either way. The fact is, i and the other "seasoned" GF's will continue to question certain types of approaches regarding the matter. It is up to the newcomers to either learn a thing or two, or stay narrow minded and continue living in their pink bubble of delusion.
Well one thing I always check about a person before responding is their join date. So on the last page someone shows
"PWE User
Join Date
Mar 2014"
Most of us in this thread have been around almost a year (some more) longer.
But back to the discussion around block.
Colonelwing - do you think a stamina based block would work with enough tweaking? Say 8 seconds of potential uptime with 8 seconds on full recharge.
Basically for every second you spend OUT of block, you gain a second of block and vice versa.
Also only having block drain during combat, yet out of combat it fully recovers. Would this not be a decent tradeoff?
Also, I want to re-address that I think we ALL agree GF stats need some changes. My personal opinion is again to make the GF stats match the GWF...?
What I would also suggest:
STR = Stamina regen (2% per point up from 1%) Damage Bonus (1%) DoT Resist (1%) - making STR better for block builds. (BTW this should be the same for GWFs)
Con = Armor Pen (1% per point) HP (4% - heck id even say 3% is fair)
Dex = Critical Chance (1% per point) Aoe Resist (1%) and DEflect (.5% per point)
This way GWFs and GFs share the same stat bonuses.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Sorry guys and gals but the feedback forums were becoming quite a mess of back and forth with a lot of insults, you're rights and you're wrongs rather than actual feedback of your own opinions.
I tried to leave as much direct feedback as I could but while reading so much I likely did grab some things that could have arguably been left behind. If you feel a specific post should be left behind feel free to PM me but the simpler alternative is to just reaffirm your feedback using direct feedback, preferably using the format the developers requested.
The only non-direct feedback I did intentionally leave were the simple "I agree" posts as it at least directs the devs to direct feedback.
If you want to continue with the speculation and debates on what the best approach is then please do so here. Thanks!
I believe together we can actually tame this beast and make it work properly. I was just upset at first, but after i took nap and rethought some aspects, i truly believe this is going to be great, in the end. The major drawback to me, is the depletion upon raising our shields and the regeneration once the meter is empty. The actual uptime could also be a tad, longer in it's duration.
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Regarding the stats, it can only get better than it currently is on live. (lol)
Yeah, normally I don't do that but the sheer amount of 50 line quotes I had to scroll past was rediculous!
- Ambi
What I would also suggest:
STR = Stamina regen (2% per point up from 1%) Damage Bonus (1%) DoT Resist (1%) - making STR better for block builds. (BTW this should be the same for GWFs)
Con = Armor Pen (1% per point) HP (4% - heck id even say 3% is fair)
Dex = Critical Chance (1% per point) Aoe Resist (1%) and DEflect (.5% per point)
This way GWFs and GFs share the same stat bonuses.
I would also add the ability power gain but 0.5% per point instead of 1% since we are gaining armor mitigation with CON.
I believe together we can actually tame this beast and make it work properly. I was just upset at first, but after i took nap and rethought some aspects, i truly believe this is going to be great, in the end. The major drawback to me, is the depletion upon raising our shields and the regeneration once the meter is empty. The actual uptime could also be a tad, longer in it's duration.
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Regarding the stats, it can only get better than it currently is on live. (lol)
And I shall hover, and swoop in to let you two know when you are WRONG!!!
In all seriousness this is the correct attitude for us to take lets all help each other stay in line. We are all very passionate about our favorite class, but lets try and remember that we all want the same thing: A better GF.
A gentile reminder to each other now and again will help to maintain that.
(yes I know I'm one of the worst <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tossers here :P but its all for the love of the class)
And I shall hover, and swoop in to let you two know when you are WRONG!!!
In all seriousness this is the correct attitude for us to take lets all help each other stay in line. We are all very passionate about our favorite class, but lets try and remember that we all want the same thing: A better GF.
A gentile reminder to each other now and again will help to maintain that.
(yes I know I'm one of the worst <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tossers here :P but its all for the love of the class)
Preview still crashing on me. Is the new block actually so bad that it had supplanted the TR/ FLS nerf? Wow.
I actually have no problem with the Threatening Rush Nerf. Does it suck? Yeah! Is it going to effect ME in PvP much? No. I have several encounters that act as gap closers, the only thing TR does for me is to give me a tool to encourage classes to use their dodges up so I can start dropping my encounters.
I don't think there will be many situations in PvP where I will say "dang! I wish I had another charge of TR". That being said, leaving it as it is on live (for GF only) would help people who like to use different encounters, and also be useful for GF's who like to distract and intimidate in PvP. Unlimited TR on GWF is OP, on GF it most certainly is NOT.
Preview still crashing on me. Is the new block actually so bad that it had supplanted the TR/ FLS nerf? Wow.
let's say... The mechanic is an unfinished vanilla version. And our combined, feedback is what's going to shape it. (hopefully). To answer your question, yes it currently is terrible.
Hey guys, I got the OK from Ambisinisterr to share these:
First one is a quick 1v1 Vs. Xenovia (GWF) right after test went live. No companions were used.
The GF is speced traditional conq, with defense stats stacked to a reasonable amount.
The point of the video is not how easily the GF dies, but rather to show that his lack of DPS cripples him. Also it shows the new block mechanic in action.
The second video is of the same GF 1v1ing an HR whom he out gears considerable. You can see that there is no way the GF would ever be able to kill the HR, even if the HR was not trying to kill the GF there would be no hope.
Please keep "skill" arguments out of this. The GF is built for DPS, and has pretty good gear, the point of these videos is not to show how many times he misses an encounter, or that he is using the wrong encounters, or that he should have blocked here or there. Its to show that the Damage output of the GF is so low that even when speced DPS, they do not have much of a chance of killing in PvP.
One of the problems with the new block mechanic is also demonstrated here. When the HR goes into stealth, its no mystery what is coming next, and the new block mechanic prevents the GF from holding block to discourage (or block) the incoming encounter. The HR simply has to hold off for a second until the GF either runs out of stamina, or is forced to release block to prevent its complete depletion.
Thanks again to Ambisinisterr, and PLEASE lets keep it constructive.
I logged onto GF and saw my guard just disappear after holding it up for a few seconds, i just logged out and said to myself i'll just come back when they fix it, because I won't be running a dungeon with that.
Deflection is a form of tanking and since CON is a defensive stat rather than an offensive stat, letting it grant deflection is one of the best suggestions possible towards GF improvement.
Yes, that's the part that "sounds" nice; but it makes no sense for Constitution to add to Reflex saving throws.
Second issue with that: you got a full plate armor and a shield and a sword - you ain't gonna deflect anything.
Sure, it sounds nice, but it just doesn't make sense.
Comments
I dont think ive ever asked for a GWF buff and i sure didnt ask for anything they rolled out in module 3... If anything ive been askimg for GF buffs as id love to play my GF again.
That said i am not fast either way with block being stamina based or damage based i AM against the block on live. It either needs to be buffed (although 200% seems a bit much).
Yup. GF just became the single best party DPS booster in game. Sweetness.
And concerning the guard change I posted a fix already in another thread. Have marked targets do less damage to guard meter. You buff marks, empower guard meter and improve GF survivability without reinventing the wheel.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
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So please, if one isn't able to grasp/comprehend the easiest things/mechanics of the GF class, do not post/agree with useless or unneeded suggestions. Mmo's especially Neverwinter have taught me one thing, 1 player out of 500 players is actually good, the other 499 aren't and taking advice of said people is not the wisest decision to make.
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I try to fomulate this as calm and gentleman like as possible, BUT my patience is not infinite and the ignorance and idiocricy of certain posters is just too much for my taste.
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Again to clarify, i am not targetting somebody in particular, just stating some important facts.
I *THINK* that I've heard BEST CASE you can get maybe 15% bonus from Combat Advantage. Is that really worth bringing a class who will gimp the groups DPS? Mathematically it might barely beat out a group that does not have a GF buffing everyone, but in actual practice do people in PvE have a problem getting the CA bonus in dungeons the way it is now?
I do not know much about PvE but I think this is fairly accurate? Someone please confirm or show the numbers saying differently. And please, be honest, if its just your opinion or you just "THINK" that the numbers you are using are close or correct just say so like I did above.
I do not know if the increased movement speed while blocking is intended. It is a VERY nice improvement!! I don't care if it looks silly, it is a buff, and GF needs all it can get!
If it is intended, its great, I love it, leave it please!! If it is not intended I would not fault the devs for correcting it as it has the potential to be a little OP if the other things with GF are fixed properly.
Option 1: Revert back to LIVE version but buff the block meter substantially.
The Pros: Block can be "held" pre-emtively/indefinitely and is directly reduced by the number of hits/damage you take.
Cons: Big hits should IMO reduce a more substantial amount of block (IN MY OPINION). I think a 10-15k crit only reducing 1/4th of block meter is kinda stupid. But also a bunch of LITTLE hits taking away HALF of your block meter in seconds it stupid too.
Which leads me to option 2: Make Guard meter a FLAT damage pool. Previously mentioned was 10k - which is probably too small. I think 20k seems too high IMO, so maybe somewhere in the middle - I really have no idea. Theoretically a base of 10k, buffed up with gear/STR/feats could push it north of 20k so IDK.
Pros: Its easy to calculate and understand, small hits will take less block, big hits can wipe block out completely.
Cons: This is a VERY fine line between OP and horrible... too little damage and its worthless, too much GF = godmode (not the GF lol)
Option 3: Stamina based block. There are TWO ways you can swing this theory, neither of which are properly represented on the PTR currently.
Stamina #1: Block is a pure function of holding block via stamina, however, the GF needs a BIG stamina pool inorder to make this viable. Something around double what is currently offered on PTR. I am probably less in favor of this idea TBH.
Pros: If you time block correctly you can negate massive amounts of damage.
Cons: Its much harder to pre-emtively block, but it allows for MUCH better "reactive/timed" blocks.
Stamina #2: Block is a function of time UNDER ATTACK. So its a stamina based block meter - like on the PTR EXCEPT it doesnt diminish unless actually blocking blows. It doesnt take damage into any consideration here, just a pure matter of time blocking actual blows. This again though still needs a substantial boost as to what is on the PTR in terms of duration.
Pros: Allows for pre-emptive blocking and affords the GF opportunity to block a good duration of blows.
Cons: Doesnt factor in big hits of damage - which can either be a pro or con...
This is just my assessment, again the ONLY thing I am fast on are two things:
1) LIVE block sucks.
2) PTR block sucks.
Both live and PTR blocks CAN work but need re-working.
I STILL am a firm believer that for GFs Con should grant ARP and HP and Dex should grant Crit/deflect.
I still also think GFs weapon damage should get a buff overall to around the range of HR/CW weapon damage - this allows for better use of weapon enchants as well as slightly more damage - what is NEEDED.
I quoted you but I could have quoted other people with this idea of timed guard. It is clear for me : I do not like it.
If my guard is up, I am hit once and time passes, one way or another, it will be empty. So what is the purpose of guard if it is not available when it is needed ?
I would much prefer a guard system based on an amount of damages which scales with defense.
For example (random figures inside), a player can guard 50K damage. After taking 50K, guard is automatically down.
You can use Tide of Iron to refill it by 10% (actually the case), Enforced Threat and Into the Fray by 15% at least (a little more with encounters should be logic given the cooldown).
I understand now where the % over 8 seconds comes from. If it is instant, you can spam Tide of Iron. Maybe this power should refill the guard meter slowly like 2% each second for 5 seconds. Leave encounters instant or maybe 5% each second for 3 seconds. This way, someone can still manage to (make you) drop your guard.
I liked one idea from the forum (sorry, I do not remember who it is and in which thread I read it). Adding a stat to shields.
Depending on your shield, you can have more guard, better recharge time, or whatever can improve the gameplay with shields. This stuff should be useful, not only bring basic stats. This way, you can tweak some path feats to really differentiate each path and allow every build to have a common mechanic.
And no 80% damage reduction through shield please. I do not know what the boss damages are but I saw many people dying from the Beholder AoE. Taking 20% of this huge AoE + his attacks, there is no point in having a shield. I tanked it and stayed alive with a good timing in powers and dodging. Tanking should revolve around this more and not only running for your life (oops, I kite in many dungeons...).
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Serious or not ?
If a cleric can heal 20K/s, why not. But do not forget that dungeons are designed in a way where you do not need each class and can survive only with your powers/potions/skill (people run without GF afaik). I understood it like "bring the player, not the class".
And i am against it, because stacking CON beyond a value of 19 on a GF is a terrible idea from the get go. The best stats at lvl 60 are: 21 STR, 19 CON and obviously 25 DEX, because arpen in PvP works wonders and generally has more worth coming from stats, rather than gimping us even more by receiving arpen from items.
Tanks cannot/couldn't/will never be able to do this, BUT Trickster rogues can.
lol
How is stacking Con beyond 19 a terrible Idea LOL... Con has always been something to stackc for HP purposes from the get go - WAY back when the game started when tenebrous was king.
Im really lost on what your saying too... arp works wonders in pvp - gotcha and agree totally.
generally has more worth coming from stats - ok I get this too because dim returns.
rather than gimping us? - no idea how this would gimp you...
You NOW would be able to get ARP AND HP from CON, AND THEN! NOW actually get CRIT from DEX. You have 25 DEX? Ok thats 15% more crit.
ARP is something you can actually stack to higher values and still see benefit even until 3000, versus crit starts having pretty painful DR after even about 1500...
I cant help you if you rolled less Con... Thats a defensive stat that just got a real nice boost to HP. Looks like you went for more damage which with my suggestion would STILL boost your damage substantially - youd have about 6% less ARP but have 15% more crit.... maybe take some points in crit and put that into ARP or even power... Or heck, repsec and put more into Con....
The REASON this makes sense is because its the SAME benefits GWFs have and both classes are fighters.
It also puts Vorpal back on the table as a good enchant for GFs - just like every other class. Except pre-stat changes a good pvp GF would end up with maybe 19-23% crit (depending on spec) so now add 10-15% more too that.... 29-38% crit.
Why cant GFs who want to roll crit builds get nice crit too? Its real easy for a SENT GWF to have over 40% crit. Its really easy for a TR to have close to 50%....
That is a great idea in theory, I really do like the idea of classes being necessary. Might make the content more challenging but enjoyable for the sense of achievement. In practice though I really don't want to have to ask a DPS character or Cleric to hold my hand when I do solo content (dailies). Decent timing of the old block system made solo PvE straight forward even if it takes 3-4 times longer than with my Wizard. The new stamina bar type just made my character defenceless.
I'd love to watch the videos, can you provide me with links via forum pm? If it's ok to you, of course.
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My GF is 12 matches away from a Headhunter title, there goes the myth of us not being able to kill others in PvP. I wonder why people are so narrow minded, we have three specs, not just one. Conqerors for dps/burst, Protectors for tanking purposes and the tactician for utility/CC purposes... They think a GF has got to be a tank, i guess.
Sry, i misread. I am starting to like your suggestion, because even with 19 CON, the added crit would be a nice boost to our dps aswell as burst dmg. My bad. (I apologize)
See we can all be friends
Also, I wanted to point out a MAJOR issue with block on the PTR (aside from the issues weve discussed in this thread already) is the stupidly long recharge timer. ROUGH math is about 5 seconds of blocking with about 15 seconds (feated and geared) of recharge.
If block is to work on a stamina base, not only does the timer need to increase as to how long you can block, I still think it should only drain in combat, I also think recharge time needs to be cut roughly in half, AND upon leaving combat block should fully charge without re-charge. So leaving a fight fully re-charges it (BTW id like to see this work for TRs as well and their stealth)
So theoretically (based on the CURRENT PTR block) if it were buffed to say about 8 seconds of uptime, with about 8 seconds on recharge timer.. You could have some decent uptime.
Again the Con here is it requires more reactive/timed blocks rather than pre-emptive blocking... But this would (i think) alteast make it decent again. I think (LIVE AND PTR) what makes a GF feel so weak is outside block, GFs are just helpless turtles laying on their backs.
Its too easy to drain block, and too hard to gain it back.
Another way you COULD approach this is keep the crappy recharge block in place, but ADD a feature like determination on GWFs where taking damage recharges block faster based upon damage taken. Again, JUST AN IDEA - although id rather just see a flat recharge increase.
Overall - we all agree how it is on live AND ptr is NOT GOOD!!!!!
This could be an addition to the protector's capstone, OMG i love this idea.
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trohkarr has a point, though. While we have the chance we should give proper feedback, instead of giving feedback in forms of speculative assumptions. I for example am playing nothing but GF and GWF since the very end of the closed beta. (i even abandoned my GWF in favor of creating a second GF, just when the GWF got buffed into god mode because i dislike these types of advantages and prefer a fair game/play.)
It is just logical, that people who stick to one class, know more about it than people who casually play it or just recently have picked it up. Practice makes the master, that's life.
I never claimed this either way. The fact is though, that i and the other "seasoned" GF's will continue to question certain types of approaches regarding the matter. It is up to the newcomers to either learn a thing or two, or stay narrow minded and continue living in their pink bubble of delusion.
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In other words: Quality should matter more than, quantity.
Well one thing I always check about a person before responding is their join date. So on the last page someone shows
"PWE User
Join Date
Mar 2014"
Most of us in this thread have been around almost a year (some more) longer.
But back to the discussion around block.
Colonelwing - do you think a stamina based block would work with enough tweaking? Say 8 seconds of potential uptime with 8 seconds on full recharge.
Basically for every second you spend OUT of block, you gain a second of block and vice versa.
Also only having block drain during combat, yet out of combat it fully recovers. Would this not be a decent tradeoff?
Also, I want to re-address that I think we ALL agree GF stats need some changes. My personal opinion is again to make the GF stats match the GWF...?
What I would also suggest:
STR = Stamina regen (2% per point up from 1%) Damage Bonus (1%) DoT Resist (1%) - making STR better for block builds. (BTW this should be the same for GWFs)
Con = Armor Pen (1% per point) HP (4% - heck id even say 3% is fair)
Dex = Critical Chance (1% per point) Aoe Resist (1%) and DEflect (.5% per point)
This way GWFs and GFs share the same stat bonuses.
I tried to leave as much direct feedback as I could but while reading so much I likely did grab some things that could have arguably been left behind. If you feel a specific post should be left behind feel free to PM me but the simpler alternative is to just reaffirm your feedback using direct feedback, preferably using the format the developers requested.
The only non-direct feedback I did intentionally leave were the simple "I agree" posts as it at least directs the devs to direct feedback.
If you want to continue with the speculation and debates on what the best approach is then please do so here. Thanks!
I believe together we can actually tame this beast and make it work properly. I was just upset at first, but after i took nap and rethought some aspects, i truly believe this is going to be great, in the end. The major drawback to me, is the depletion upon raising our shields and the regeneration once the meter is empty. The actual uptime could also be a tad, longer in it's duration.
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Regarding the stats, it can only get better than it currently is on live. (lol)
Yeah, normally I don't do that but the sheer amount of 50 line quotes I had to scroll past was rediculous!
- Ambi
#Ikr, it was getting a bit out of control.
I would also add the ability power gain but 0.5% per point instead of 1% since we are gaining armor mitigation with CON.
And I shall hover, and swoop in to let you two know when you are WRONG!!!
In all seriousness this is the correct attitude for us to take lets all help each other stay in line. We are all very passionate about our favorite class, but lets try and remember that we all want the same thing: A better GF.
A gentile reminder to each other now and again will help to maintain that.
(yes I know I'm one of the worst <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tossers here :P but its all for the love of the class)
Colonel, PM incoming.
Thanks. And i agree.
I actually have no problem with the Threatening Rush Nerf. Does it suck? Yeah! Is it going to effect ME in PvP much? No. I have several encounters that act as gap closers, the only thing TR does for me is to give me a tool to encourage classes to use their dodges up so I can start dropping my encounters.
I don't think there will be many situations in PvP where I will say "dang! I wish I had another charge of TR". That being said, leaving it as it is on live (for GF only) would help people who like to use different encounters, and also be useful for GF's who like to distract and intimidate in PvP. Unlimited TR on GWF is OP, on GF it most certainly is NOT.
let's say... The mechanic is an unfinished vanilla version. And our combined, feedback is what's going to shape it. (hopefully). To answer your question, yes it currently is terrible.
First one is a quick 1v1 Vs. Xenovia (GWF) right after test went live. No companions were used.
The GF is speced traditional conq, with defense stats stacked to a reasonable amount.
The point of the video is not how easily the GF dies, but rather to show that his lack of DPS cripples him. Also it shows the new block mechanic in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9uC8ooZ1qg
The second video is of the same GF 1v1ing an HR whom he out gears considerable. You can see that there is no way the GF would ever be able to kill the HR, even if the HR was not trying to kill the GF there would be no hope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo-xDReo0m0
Please keep "skill" arguments out of this. The GF is built for DPS, and has pretty good gear, the point of these videos is not to show how many times he misses an encounter, or that he is using the wrong encounters, or that he should have blocked here or there. Its to show that the Damage output of the GF is so low that even when speced DPS, they do not have much of a chance of killing in PvP.
One of the problems with the new block mechanic is also demonstrated here. When the HR goes into stealth, its no mystery what is coming next, and the new block mechanic prevents the GF from holding block to discourage (or block) the incoming encounter. The HR simply has to hold off for a second until the GF either runs out of stamina, or is forced to release block to prevent its complete depletion.
Thanks again to Ambisinisterr, and PLEASE lets keep it constructive.
I logged onto GF and saw my guard just disappear after holding it up for a few seconds, i just logged out and said to myself i'll just come back when they fix it, because I won't be running a dungeon with that.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Yes, that's the part that "sounds" nice; but it makes no sense for Constitution to add to Reflex saving throws.
Second issue with that: you got a full plate armor and a shield and a sword - you ain't gonna deflect anything.
Sure, it sounds nice, but it just doesn't make sense.