Why is so incredibly punished the stacking of DEF, especially in PvP?

oicidraz

After a match were I faced an OP HR and an OP GWF (both with GPF, perfect and I guess +R8 enchants) I had my guard broken in nothing while I could do nothing (even 1V1 with the HR was a dead in 20-30 seconds and I have ~52% DR, 30% Deflect, +18% Resistances from Tenacity and 1.4K Regen) I wonder why they made stacking Def so incredibly punished in this game, Terror (-20%), GPF (-45%), ArP, debuffs, powers that ignore DR, abilities bonus, etc... while DEF is caped, so you waste a lot of GS trying to stack this and all that effort is is thrown away with the habit of developers to implement things that make it more useless.

I know you are going to say HP/REGEN > DR, I know, I just wanna know why Def is so punished here.

realramaladni

Armor enchants are just incredible bad and can't compare to the versatility and variety of weapon enchants...

oicidraz

realramaladni wrote: »

Armor enchants are just incredible bad and can't compare to the versatility and variety of weapon enchants...

So true, with GPF and the speed that you can attack it means a constant 15%, 30% or even 45% Def Debuff, or with Perfect Terror you can make a 20% Def Debuff.

Now if I could choose a enchant to counter that it could be Negation, but it have a ICD of 60 seconds!!!.

I have a GF and I want to say this...

Devs!!!, Stop making the Def you gave us in high amount in all of our sets useless with not even a chance to counter these insane practices!!! -.-

hamletswords

It's actually an advantage to stack defense in PVP beyond unlike PVE because of this exact thing.

Even though you're losing more defense per percentage, the amount of defense you'll be left with will still be in diminishing returns territory, meaning the actual damage increase against you is less.

It's a little confusing but just for clarity's sake using simple numbers, let's say 2k defense gives you 20% DR. 5k gives you 30% because of diminishing returns.

If 3 stacks of plaguefire took off 50% (again for the sake of clarity), from 5k you'd be left with 2.5k, and say 23% DR, meaning a loss of 7% DR.

From 2k you'd be left with 1k, and a DR of 10%, meaning a loss of 10% DR. Even though you're losing less defense, you're losing more damage reduction, which is what matters.

Taken to an extreme, if you could stack 100k defense, plaguefire would drop you to 55k, but it would have no noticable effect at all because of diminishing returns (i.e. the amount of damage reduction you get from 55k is about the same as you get from 100k).

jessebrownjr

Those items that say they reduce defense isnt actually a defense reduction they are actually a flat % damage buff...Also never stack your defense past 3500 even though thats quite hard with a GF , and if your guard is broken you're blocking too much plain and simple ; BLOCK ONLY (HARD HITTING) Encounters!...and all damaging dailies. Even while roared our guard can be put up lol

hamletswords

Those items that say they reduce defense isnt actually a defense reduction they are actually a flat % damage buff...

That's true in PVE but only because mobs don't have defense. But yeah it basically translates to the same thing.

The main point being that you don't get punished for having more defense (and it can actually be a slight advantage).

cilginordek

jessebrownjr wrote: »

Also never stack your defense past 3500 even though thats quite hard with a GF

True Words. Avoiding defense is very important for me when choosing gear. Any point that's not spent on defense is a point spent on something useful.

rashylewizz

jessebrownjr wrote: »

Those items that say they reduce defense isnt actually a defense reduction they are actually a flat % damage buff...

Incorrect.

Like hamlet already said, that only applies to PVE not PVP. It works straight up for PVP

kolevra

Def is not punished more so than other stats, in fact, it is the least punished stat as far as diminishing returns go. Its just that Def is so easy to get so its easier to hit soft/hard caps.

ripyourlipsoff

I have been arguing this exact fact on these very forums, regen is not going to save a GF in PVP! Also the amount of defense we can stack is only about 5%-10% more then other classes if they stacked it yet they would still have offensive prowess!


You need to stack offensive as much arp / crit / rec you can muster and keep your Dr in the 45%-47% range. The other classes that benefit from Arp the most pretty much hit you as if you had wrapped yourself in saran wrap, so defense will not help you, you need a good offense to stay alive.

ripyourlipsoff

kolevra wrote: »

Def is not punished more so than other stats, in fact, it is the least punished stat as far as diminishing returns go. Its just that Def is so easy to get so its easier to hit soft/hard caps.

Disagree, the GF should in theory have 60%- 75% DR based on our defense, yet after 47% or so we get what .03% for every DEF we apply? Its stupid so yes we are punished! If all the classes natural stats diminished the way a GFs def did there would be a outrage...

Imagine if a GWf could only get 25% DR and then it diminished, or a CW could only muster 15% and then to bad no more for you...

ripyourlipsoff

oicidraz wrote: »

After a match were I faced an OP HR and an OP GWF (both with GPF, perfect and I guess +R8 enchants) I had my guard broken in nothing while I could do nothing (even 1V1 with the HR was a dead in 20-30 seconds and I have ~52% DR, 30% Deflect, +18% Resistances from Tenacity and 1.4K Regen) I wonder why they made stacking Def so incredibly punished in this game, Terror (-20%), GPF (-45%), ArP, debuffs, powers that ignore DR, abilities bonus, etc... while DEF is caped, so you waste a lot of GS trying to stack this and all that effort is is thrown away with the habit of developers to implement things that make it more useless.

I know you are going to say HP/REGEN > DR, I know, I just wanna know why Def is so punished here.

I am curious to ho much you stacked? Could you post a s/s of you DR stats i'd love to see how you went about it and the results.

ripyourlipsoff

hamletswords wrote: »

It's actually an advantage to stack defense in PVP beyond unlike PVE because of this exact thing.

Even though you're losing more defense per percentage, the amount of defense you'll be left with will still be in diminishing returns territory, meaning the actual damage increase against you is less.

It's a little confusing but just for clarity's sake using simple numbers, let's say 2k defense gives you 20% DR. 5k gives you 30% because of diminishing returns.

If 3 stacks of plaguefire took off 50% (again for the sake of clarity), from 5k you'd be left with 2.5k, and say 23% DR, meaning a loss of 7% DR.

From 2k you'd be left with 1k, and a DR of 10%, meaning a loss of 10% DR. Even though you're losing less defense, you're losing more damage reduction, which is what matters.

Taken to an extreme, if you could stack 100k defense, plaguefire would drop you to 55k, but it would have no noticable effect at all because of diminishing returns (i.e. the amount of damage reduction you get from 55k is about the same as you get from 100k).

Yes, but we have to many defense mitigating powers in the game. plaguefire / terror / bronzewood, then add in all the classes armor penetration, then apply each classes defense debuffs = dead GF! As the slowest most clumsy, and cumbersome class that relies on a shield to stop from dieing we have no escape... Just your Thornward would kill us if we stayed inside it.

Unlike the other classes we cannot dodge, roll, sprint, teleport etc so we actually mitigate way less damage then you guys do.

bucklittle

Your better off stacking +HPs on a GF. I can't count how many GF I've seen in full profound gear with barely 30k HPs, mostly because I'm bad at counting.