I believe so, I know it used to matter a LOT. But the ability will be rather useless in pvp come mod 4 so I'd work on using other encounters, still awesome for PVE though. Popping that with Fighter's Recovery is shweeet
I have re-formulated my suggestions now here, I actually really like these changes now - which are not much....
Stat changes: STR = damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%)
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
RECKLESS ATTACKER: *REWORKED* Increases damage by 30% for 8 seconds after dealing a critical strike.more inline with PnP feat, and combined with Dex changes makes this more plausible.
Stamina/Guard:
The ONLY change: *Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes. It will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
Now that block is only 80%, I think its only fair to have it have much more an "uptime" than previously. Think of how many times TRs use stealth, or CWs use Spell Mastery, or GWFs use Unstoppable - MANY times per fight. GFs are the only one who once block is used, have to wait almost 15 seconds for full block again, thats WAY too long IMO.
Just an FYI for you Chris (Crush) - People are posting in the NON-Official GF Thread more than they are here...
I saw a Change I really liked that added to my suggested block function here so I wanted to post it. Here it is:
Stamina/Guard:
*Stamina Meter on PTR is DOUBLED.
*Blocking WITH Stamina provides 100% DR (as it was on LIVE).
*Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes. Note: You cant INITIATE block with no stamina, but only continue to hold it once stamina is depleted. Blocking while stamina is depleted only blocks 50% of incoming damage. Stamina will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
This gives it a benefit to block WITH stamina and an advantage to "time" blocks appropriately but it also gives GFs the true defensive tool of needing to block for LONG periods of time - however at reduced effectiveness.
Block needs to be doubled in its current form to make this more viable.
Blocking at 50% still = 50%*50%*80% damage (Block*Dr*Tenacity) which is about 20% of damage still goes through which seems fair to me....
Just an FYI for you Chris (Crush) - People are posting in the NON-Official GF Thread more than they are here...
I saw a Change I really liked that added to my suggested block function here so I wanted to post it. Here it is:
Stamina/Guard:
*Stamina Meter on PTR is DOUBLED.
*Blocking WITH Stamina provides 100% DR (as it was on LIVE).
*Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes. Note: You cant INITIATE block with no stamina, but only continue to hold it once stamina is depleted. Blocking while stamina is depleted only blocks 50% of incoming damage. Stamina will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
This gives it a benefit to block WITH stamina and an advantage to "time" blocks appropriately but it also gives GFs the true defensive tool of needing to block for LONG periods of time - however at reduced effectiveness.
Block needs to be doubled in its current form to make this more viable.
Blocking at 50% still = 50%*50%*80% damage (Block*Dr*Tenacity) which is about 20% of damage still goes through which seems fair to me....
Why not suggesting this for the current Live Block mech ? This will be much better.
Due to overwhelming feedback and further thought on my part, I have again re-formulated what I think would be BETTER suggestions.
I am doing this to try and get consensus and to detail out what people want.
Stat changes: STR = damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%). *AP GAIN REMOVED - with more block uptime, it would be too strong.
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
Stamina/Guard:
*REWORKED* *The Stamina Block Meter has been DOUBLED.
*Base block still = 80% DR multiplied as explained. Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes but is HALF as effective (40% versus 80%) NOTE: Block can not be RAISED with no stamina but can only be continuously HELD with no stamina (meaning you cant active block unless you have enough stamina. It will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
CAPSTONE REWORKS:
RECKLESS ATTACKER (Conqueror): *REWORKED* Increases damage to MARKED targets by 30%.
PROTECTOR CAPSTONE: *REWORKED* Increases block effectiveness to 100% WITH stamina and 50% without.
These capstones take advantage of both the GF class features. Conqueror buffs the offensive "tab" while Protector buffs the defensive "block".
For the math:
80% block in pvp = about 92% DR
40% block in pvp = about 76% DR
100% block = 100%
50% block in pvp = 80% DR
EDIT:Protector tree: Increased DR by 10% when below 30% Stamina Feat.
This boosts the 50% block *60% DR*20% tenacity to 84% total DR IN block. So that feat adds quite a bit of tankiness.
Mark already does 8% -DR, this 30% more damage would be a significant boost with near 100% uptime.
Due to overwhelming feedback and further thought on my part, I have again re-formulated what I think would be BETTER suggestions.
I am doing this to try and get consensus and to detail out what people want.
Stat changes: STR = damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%)
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
Stamina/Guard:
*REWORKED* *The Stamina Block Meter has been DOUBLED.
*Base block still = 80% DR multiplied as explained. Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes but is HALF as effective (40% versus 80%) NOTE: Block can not be RAISED with no stamina but can only be continuously HELD with no stamina (meaning you cant active block unless you have enough stamina. It will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
CAPSTONE REWORKS:
RECKLESS ATTACKER (Conqueror): *REWORKED* Increases damage to MARKED targets by 30%.
PROTECTOR CAPSTONE: *REWORKED* Increases block effectiveness to 100% WITH stamina and 50% without.
These capstones take advantage of both the GF class features. Conqueror buffs the offensive "tab" while Protector buffs the defensive "block".
For the math:
80% block in pvp = about 92% DR
40% block in pvp = about 76% DR
100% block = 100%
50% block in pvp = 80% DR
Mark already does 8% -DR, this 30% more damage would be a significant boost with near 100% uptime.
No . The previous suggestion is better .Unless you wish those changes applied on the current live block mech.
Why not suggesting this for the current Live Block mech ? This will be much better.
The problem is it will be too good on the current block meter and it still doesnt address the problem of fast small attacks draining it in two seconds. It gives certain classes like TR an advantage and classes who cant attack as fast no way of dropping block meter - which makes it too strong IMO, along with the damage buffs and DR boosts.
Since GFs will have PLENTY of uptime now, I think this system is MORE than fair. Now the GF chooses between Conq Spec and the ability to deal good damage but be less tanky, or Defensive Protector where they deal less damage but are ALOT tankier.
With THESE changes (SEE PREVIOUS POST - THESE ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN IN ISOLATION), there MAY be some possible imbalance with some feats.... So...
Changes to CONSIDER:
1) Knights Challenge - May be too strong for a single target burst with 30% more damage from Mark (doubles with KC). I dont have a solution here, but it could be too "cheesy" with more crit and more damage and cause an issue.
So maybe look at dropping the damage, but also look at possible giving the GF and advantage on others when using it. So something Like: Locks you and your foe in combat, dealing 50% more damage to eachother, HOWEVER additional ranks increase damage by 15% AND extend duration putting the GF at 80% bonus damage (down from 100%) while foes only deal 50% more damage. This leaves the net effect close to the same as on LIVE, but enemies wont deal quite as much damage in return.
This cuts down on damage "cheese" and gives slightly more "utility".
2) Armor of Bahamut Should be moved deeper into the Protector Tree. Basically this is a 10% DR boost which is about 4x stronger than the 5% more deflect T1 feat. For a T1 feat this is too strong.
Simple SWAPPING it for "shieldmaster (T3 feat)" would more than suffice. Now players cant go full Conq OR Full Tact and still get this feat - reserved for basically Protector Tree.
3) Re-Inforced Surge This does nothing in PVP. Suggestion would be, BASE frontline surge acts as a STUN, RE-Inforced Surge returns the PRONE both in PVE and PVP.
I have re-formulated my suggestions now here, I actually really like these changes now - which are not much....
Stat changes: STR = Action Point gain/ damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%)
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
i agree with this 100% this would give players a way to optimize their potential depending on that tree they wished to pursue. infact i think we should get 6% up from 4% on con considering GWF can now reach 50k+ while we struggle to get into the high 40's it should come naturally to our class
SPEC IRON VANGUARD/SWORDMASTER
FEEDBACK from play testing in pvp and pve first i'll start with our at-wills
cleave:
still the good old go to cleave not much to look at here (if it were up to me i would remove feated cleave from conqueror and replace it with a new feat and just up cleaves dmg the 5%)
Weapons Master:
the dmg increase is a bonus and well needed i like this so far even though my choice is always iron vanguard due to playstyle.
Tide of Iron: still a great at will although the 10% stamina recovered is just not enough to even effect the shield mechanic on the PTR so -1 for this at will.
Crushing Surge:
what can i say that hasnt already been said this needs to have it's animation time increased(some would argue that it's about the same as cleave it's not your deluding yourself)and the heal on the 3rd strike boosted higher then it would be worth slotting over cleave feated or not. overall still the same
Threatening Rush:
all i can say is thank you for not making this at-will a charge skill for us it's the GWF mechanic of being able to sprint into a threatening rush that warrented the change but for us guardians it's a sorely needed mobility boost not to mention a great marking mechanic again +1 for this change
Aggravating stike:
you have rendered this skill useless with the new block mechanic the uptime from your shield aonly lets you get about 4 hits in before your shield is depleted if this is the case just remove the skill all together it only worked with live block because there was never any reason to move very far in dungeons while using it and shielding now we dont even have enough time to even use it effectively.
Shield bash:
what can i say this is even worse than aggravating using this in no way shape or form does anything to help your shield regen it just keeps depleting away no matter how many times you bash this is very broken delete this skill
Now onto encounters:
Lunging strike: very very dependable skill from testing it's still great keep it that way
Enforced Threat: I love the new cap on mobs and threat however i dont like the fact there is no way to block said pack of mobs that are wailing on you using this also doesnt seem to recover guard meater much if at all and should be looked into
Gryphons wrath:
a nice skill in my opinion for pve but in pvp however the slow pace of it makes it and the fact players are actually moveing makes it not very dependable the stun should be increased so you are guarenteed to land the following hit if you so chose to do so with tenacity and everything stuns only last like .5 seconds which ill get into later with FLS
Knee breaker:
i have no love for this skill it misses more than it connects during testing not much has changed same old same old
Knights Challenge:
still a very good skill especially for boss fights in pve however to all you complainers out there about using it in pvp i just laugh at you this skill is only viable against undergeared PuG groups that your trolling or you just like seeing numbers pop on screen in real pvp against people who know what they are doing your dead the second they notice this skill on them which isnt very hard. this is in my opinion is fine as is.
Anvil of DOOM:
this skill needs to be upped to enemy health at 35% up from 25% giving the guardians a nice little damage boost
Front Line Surge: same for pvp as live however with the new stuns it doesnt work very well making us have to choose maybe diffrent options for pvp in my opinion if you can make guardians have non charged threateding rush and gwf have charged why cant you just leave our FlS alone this is just one more thing that hurts us in pvp and i dont even use it when i pvp.
Flourish:
same as usual the dmg buff is nice still a slow casting time
Into the Fray:
has the potential to be one of the best if not the best group buff mechanic in game which it should be. from testing the guard recovery from this is the same as other encounters 0 or not noticable at all. the temp Hp your teammates get should be higher making it more effective and it should also increase groups damageontop of runspeed and actiaon point game not a huge amount but just a little.
Iron Warrior:
on PTR this skill seems to not do what your notes said from when shield is held till when it is depleted then immediately after activating this does not indeed make it regenerate 50% faster it seems to regenerate at the same rate as if i never activated the skill at all activating this skill after shield depletes should give me pretty close to full block again in a matter of .15 seconds taking into the .25 posted or maybe not either way it doesnt appear to work as intended also the temp hp should be beefed a tiny bit more than what it is i know it's based off of how much of your total you are missing but still seems like not a lot.
Knights valor:
great skill for a party but with the new block mechanic using this after using enforced threat or even bfore and then when your block meter goes you just signed your death see you 6 feet under. especially considering we now get 200% of our allies threat transfered to us.
bull charge:
i would love to have the old bull charge back it made for great node holding in pvp now it's hit or miss but i am thankful that this is still a knockback and not a stun lets keep it this way devs we cant afford anymore nerfs to our control powers. all in all still holds up.
now lets do class talents
Shield Talent
at max rank on PTR this seems to have no bearing on the new block recharge and even in protector spec with full profound set still nothing im gonna say not working as intended possibly because you moved from how much old block goes to how much new block gives back something might not be adding up. either way broken imho
Enhanced Mark:
threat up 75% +1 for this although with this slotted threat was never really an issue in dungeon in fact i dont see why we need threat increased at all once we have aggro most things are dead in a matter of seconds anyway. id say a mediocre buff at best a band aid on a much larger problem.
Guarded Assault
oh the things i could say about this would fill this whole thread so i will just say this considering the uptime of our new block this talent needs a buff in a big way i would say going from 1/2/3% to 2/6/10% would be very helpful in both pvp and pve considering mobs will be hitting your block for a shorter amount of time and in pvp your block still depletes the same. like i said it also makes up for the shorter block duration and it now makes it helpful as opposed to the neglible amount it did before if it went this way.
BUG/WHY? Guarded Assault also does not proc weapon enchants like Plague Fire, Fire Bile, ect it should considering you are the one damaging the opponent i dont know if this a bug or not but i dont see why it shouldnt it's like this on live. however it does proc with briartwine and the like armor enchantments also it does proc Teneberous so why not weapon enchants?
Ferocious reaction:
for this talent it's the same on live however i would suggest upping the activation time on this down to 1 min to 2 mins feated(down from 3) and 3 mins normal un feated giving us a way to stay in longer fights incase a group member goes down or there is no cleric.
Trample:
same not much to say about this one
Enduring warrior: this should be 1/3/5% on killing a foe instead of 1/2/3% i suppose it's OK for solo questing but useless in group setting since we dont do enough damage to kill most things anyway.
Steel blitz: same nothing much to say here.
Steely defense: a great skill in my opinion especially if you go down the tactician tree for pve but for pvp eh nothing to write home about it does have potential though. in regards though still the same
Steel Grace: nothing to add here
now onto the motherload BLOCK:
my feedback:
this on paper this sounds fantastic but in the game it's no where near that. our class is essentially crippled by this new mechanic as outlined in some of the reasons with at wills and encounters i understand the need for a new mechanic but this isnt the way to go
i would say leave this on the back burner till you have it ironed out.
it feels akin to a certain determination bug during mod 2 realease (the old players will know this) and if you release block the way it is now there will be a huge backlash and remember determination didnt get fixed until well into Mod 2 this is how it's going to be now if they release this to live in it's current form you will have killed out one class mechanic and it wont get fixed till well into mod 4 or maybe not till . so please consider that before going live this needs to be ironed out completely or else there will be uproar(if any GF's are still around to do it most will have moved to HR's and CW's)
block should have 100% DR not 80% i know it doesnt amount to much but hey why block if we still get hit especially since we dont have a dodge to completely avoid the attack all together.
lets say this the reason live block seems to deplete so fast with small hits is this large hits are effecting it correctly small hits also effect it correctly in pve.
but what people dont understand is that lets say in pvp when a TR hits your with duelist flurry it's not his initial attack thats depleteing your guard meter it so fast it's the added bleed effect ticking every second coupled with bilethorn or plague fire the problem is when you block an attack whatever attack that has a DOT effect on it block registers them instead of negating them from the intial attack that is why it depletes so fast duelist flurry enfeeblment all those if blocked should block the DOT but it doesnt that is why shield is destroyed so quickly and now you know if you didnt.
i truly do hope the developers are reading these feedback and bugs from people. the suggestions from other players are nice but please can we have more actual feedback and tests being done and not most of this pipe dream nonsense.
I good way to balance the game would be to give us one of our weak buffs or all of them as a tab ability. knights valor, into the fray, and iron warrior. No knights challange. Giving use the choice to pick between these 3 as a tab ability would be both useful for pvp and pve.
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
I good way to balance the game would be to give us one of our weak buffs or all of them as a tab ability. knights valor, into the fray, and iron warrior. No knights challange. Giving use the choice to pick between these 3 as a tab ability would be both useful for pvp and pve.
I could really get behind this. My GF would love having a party buff as a tab ability. The only down side would be the loss of the enduring mark, but they could make all GF marks enduring and then put this on the tab mechanic. That would make them more powerful than GWFs marks (a GF should have more threat generation than even a Sentinel GWF, in my opinion).
WAR CRYs i say, war cry insted of that mark, which will be omnidirectinal and give multi buffs to allys and debuffs to enemy. but not the LAME kind of buff u gave us before, but real buffs/debuffs that will make a diff.
and change the sword into a brom, and the shield into a trey, since our SWORD is not for dps, and our shield hardly blocks, it just look rediculous. or maybe ponpons? and a skirt as an armor? that will feet what we do now: runing around try to stay alive
does "REINFORGED SURGE" feat effect the stun time of FRONTLINE SURGE in pvp??
please help
I'd also like to know this. I haven't had the chance to test this in PVP.
Does Pin Down and Reinforced Surge increase the stun duration in PVP? Does Crushing Pin increase damage a stunned foe takes? If not, these 3 feats become next to useless in PVP.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I'd also like to know this. I haven't had the chance to test this in PVP.
Does Pin Down and Reinforced Surge increase the stun duration in PVP? Does Crushing Pin increase damage a stunned foe takes? If not, these 3 feats become next to useless in PVP.
Very good points here. those were pretty key aspects of not only GFs play but GFs damage as well...
REinforced Surge IMO should bring BACK the prone to Frontline... I mean your spending 5 feat points for heaven's sake....
Pin down should affect stuns as well giving stuns .1/.2/.3 more in duration.
Crushing Pin AND Trample the Fallen are now USELESS in PVP... Those were pretty big damage boosts for GFs.....
Due to overwhelming feedback and further thought on my part, I have again re-formulated what I think would be BETTER suggestions.
I am doing this to try and get consensus and to detail out what people want.
Stat changes: STR = damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%). *AP GAIN REMOVED - with more block uptime, it would be too strong.
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
Stamina/Guard:
*REWORKED* *The Stamina Block Meter has been DOUBLED.
*Base block still = 80% DR multiplied as explained. Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes but is HALF as effective (40% versus 80%) NOTE: Block can not be RAISED with no stamina but can only be continuously HELD with no stamina (meaning you cant active block unless you have enough stamina. It will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
CAPSTONE REWORKS:
RECKLESS ATTACKER (Conqueror): *REWORKED* Increases damage to MARKED targets by 30%.
PROTECTOR CAPSTONE: *REWORKED* Increases block effectiveness to 100% WITH stamina and 50% without.
These capstones take advantage of both the GF class features. Conqueror buffs the offensive "tab" while Protector buffs the defensive "block".
For the math:
80% block in pvp = about 92% DR
40% block in pvp = about 76% DR
100% block = 100%
50% block in pvp = 80% DR
EDIT:Protector tree: Increased DR by 10% when below 30% Stamina Feat.
This boosts the 50% block *60% DR*20% tenacity to 84% total DR IN block. So that feat adds quite a bit of tankiness.
Mark already does 8% -DR, this 30% more damage would be a significant boost with near 100% uptime.
REALLY need to consider these Crush! GFs need some love! And NOT just in the form of "increase stamina duration" that wont cut it... This is STILL going to be a dead class... If your gonna resurrect it, do it, but this feels like just a kick in the nuts to GF while they are down.... GFs have not been good in over a year with the stalwart nerf.... Every mod has made them worse in comparison to other classes. They got nothing with Swordmaster, they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> node holders, NOT tanky and nothing is changing...
REALLY need to consider these Crush! GFs need some love! And NOT just in the form of "increase stamina duration" that wont cut it... This is STILL going to be a dead class... If your gonna resurrect it, do it, but this feels like just a kick in the nuts to GF while they are down.... GFs have not been good in over a year with the stalwart nerf.... Every mod has made them worse in comparison to other classes. They got nothing with Swordmaster, they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> node holders, NOT tanky and nothing is changing...
Doesn't matter if you spam the same irellevant nonesense over and over again (i stopped counting at 20+ repeats btw..) The developers should not take your "advice" because you are merely trying to get the GF nerfed into oblivion, for whatever reason.
---
Your suggestions are nothing but nerfs to our damage, remember what we are lacking? That's right DAMAGE.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Swordmaster Guardian Fighters still need an adjustment on base weapon damage scaling for Crescendo and Steel Blitz.
As it stands, Crescendo is extremely weak and thus not useful to slot for Guardian Fighters on Swordmaster Paragon, same with Steel Blitz, as those are based off the higher GWF weapon base damage.
By the same token, Indomitable Strength on Iron Vanguard Great Weapon Fighters still deals more damage than possibly intended, again due to weapon base damage scaling. This is a problem because Indomitable Strength is much faster to execute than Crescendo, allowing the Great Weapon Fighter to continue using other attacks/movement earlier, giving it already more effective damage than Crescendo.
REALLY need to consider these Crush! GFs need some love! And NOT just in the form of "increase stamina duration" that wont cut it... This is STILL going to be a dead class... If your gonna resurrect it, do it, but this feels like just a kick in the nuts to GF while they are down.... GFs have not been good in over a year with the stalwart nerf.... Every mod has made them worse in comparison to other classes. They got nothing with Swordmaster, they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> node holders, NOT tanky and nothing is changing...
Pls stop the spam!!!, I think everyone saw your GF feedback like 5 times at least.
The 90% of Gfs asks for more damage and block meter not Stamina block and changes that will cripple the class completely . 46 Pages on the the general feedback demanding it .
Doesn't matter if you spam the same irellevant nonesense over and over again (i stopped counting at 20+ repeats btw..) The developers should not take your "advice" because you are merely trying to get the GF nerfed into oblivion, for whatever reason.
---
Your suggestions are nothing but nerfs to our damage, remember what we are lacking? That's right DAMAGE.
IM so lost as to why you keep saying this will nerf damage.....
1) more crit chance = MORE DAMAGE
2) 30% more damage to marked targets capstone = MORE DAMAGE. (You have to have about 12k power to get a 30% dmg boost from the capstone btw, 30% BOOST, so you have to take the damage % number you get from power and halve it - thats what the capstone GAVE you)
So..... yes.... GFs need more damage... and im tying to give them more damage.....
Maybe im not clear on this. I REMOVED the damage after crit idea as I agree it may pigeon hole too many people forcing them to stack crit, and made it a PURE 30% MORE DAMAGE TO MARKED TARGETS capstone.
I good way to balance the game would be to give us one of our weak buffs or all of them as a tab ability. knights valor, into the fray, and iron warrior. No knights challange. Giving use the choice to pick between these 3 as a tab ability would be both useful for pvp and pve.
Yeah i like that idea a choice is always best then no one can complain ^^
IM so lost as to why you keep saying this will nerf damage.....
1) more crit chance = MORE DAMAGE
2) 30% more damage to marked targets capstone = MORE DAMAGE. (You have to have about 12k power to get a 30% dmg boost from the capstone btw, 30% BOOST, so you have to take the damage % number you get from power and halve it - thats what the capstone GAVE you)
So..... yes.... GFs need more damage... and im tying to give them more damage.....
Crit isn't the right Option . We need an ensured way to land dmg not an "HELLUVA EASY TO EVADE" critical hit ....And just defend the old block for god's sake . No1 wants the new one .
The devs no that our tab ability is too weak and that our buffs are to weak to use as encounters. Give us the 3 buffs, iron warrior, knights valor, and into the fray as a tab ability and that would make us more capably in both pve/pvp. You get to pick between the three.
We could put a proposal of the most important changes and make it among several GF who know the class well and from every spec (SW/IV and Conqueror/Protect/Tactician), so we could do something with more weight, rather than everyone proposing changes that look good to them and nobody else...
Crit isn't the right Option . We need an ensured way to land dmg not an "HELLUVA EASY TO EVADE" critical hit ....And just defend the old block for god's sake . No1 wants the new one .
I dont want the old block, it sucked. I also dont want the new block either... it sucks MORE.
The problem is we shouldnt be defending the "old block" its VERY rare that DEVs make changes to the PTR then go back on those changes. What is VERY common though is they make changes, then will MODIFY changes based on feedback.
So the issue is we can say all day long we want the old block, but it will never happen. They almost never revert something back (I think the only thing ive ever seen was the stealth change for TRs but thats offpoint).
The old block sucks, the new one is worse. I believe the "perma" block approach with stamina will work fine(a small modification to the block they put on the PTR).
Either that, or I have also been in favor of just a "damage pool" we can block with the shield. My only issue there is seeing how they like to do things, this would be too small an amount and just wouldnt work well either....
BTW, it wasnt my idea for perma block it was AntMonsters, it also wasnt my idea to ADD to that as well to make block more effective with stamina, then without stamina its LESS effective (while holding for "perma" block).
Im merely trying to combine all the changes into 1 post and move it forward otherwise you have 10 people all saying different suggestions and thats how we end up with nerfs. DEVs take pieces of different ideas pitched and piece them together and it makes broken mechanics, so suggestions need to be taken as a WHOLE or ignored.
BTW- I am not in favor of the "class buffs" as a tab idea, as I agree with others that GFs DO need more damage.
Hey all, we are adding another pair of Guardian Fighter changes to the upcoming patch. We do want Guardians to deal a little more damage personally without major overhauls to power ratios or weapon damage because those things factor into many different places in combat, so we are making another change to mark to facilitate more damage. Additionally we are reworking Reckless Attacker to make more sense with the new block and be much easier to comprehend and use.
Mark: Targets who are Marked have -20% damage resistance against strikes from the Guardian Fighter. Targets who are marked still have -8% damage resistance against the Guardian Fighter's allies.
Feats: Conqueror: Reckless Attacker: *Rework* When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Attacker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Hey all, we are adding another pair of Guardian Fighter changes to the upcoming patch. We do want Guardians to deal a little more damage personally without major overhauls to power ratios or weapon damage because those things factor into many different places in combat, so we are making another change to mark to facilitate more damage. Additionally we are reworking Reckless Attacker to make more sense with the new block and be much easier to comprehend and use.
Mark: Targets who are Marked have -20% damage resistance against strikes from the Guardian Fighter. Targets who are marked still have -8% damage resistance against the Guardian Fighter's allies.
Feats: Conqueror: Reckless Attacker: *Rework* When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Attacker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Much appreciated Crush! I like these changes quite a bit, thanks. Seems like when you are STRUCK you gain this so pretty sure itll have ALOT of uptime at full stacks.
I am STILL very leery about the block changes though and would love to see your thoughts on various block options.
Its pretty clear the current (LIVE) and PTR versions are NOT very appealing.
Hey all, we are adding another pair of Guardian Fighter changes to the upcoming patch. We do want Guardians to deal a little more damage personally without major overhauls to power ratios or weapon damage because those things factor into many different places in combat, so we are making another change to mark to facilitate more damage. Additionally we are reworking Reckless Attacker to make more sense with the new block and be much easier to comprehend and use.
Mark: Targets who are Marked have -20% damage resistance against strikes from the Guardian Fighter. Targets who are marked still have -8% damage resistance against the Guardian Fighter's allies.
Feats: Conqueror: Reckless Attacker: *Rework* When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Attacker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Comments
Just an FYI for you Chris (Crush) - People are posting in the NON-Official GF Thread more than they are here...
I saw a Change I really liked that added to my suggested block function here so I wanted to post it. Here it is:
Stamina/Guard:
*Stamina Meter on PTR is DOUBLED.
*Blocking WITH Stamina provides 100% DR (as it was on LIVE).
*Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes. Note: You cant INITIATE block with no stamina, but only continue to hold it once stamina is depleted. Blocking while stamina is depleted only blocks 50% of incoming damage. Stamina will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
This gives it a benefit to block WITH stamina and an advantage to "time" blocks appropriately but it also gives GFs the true defensive tool of needing to block for LONG periods of time - however at reduced effectiveness.
Block needs to be doubled in its current form to make this more viable.
Blocking at 50% still = 50%*50%*80% damage (Block*Dr*Tenacity) which is about 20% of damage still goes through which seems fair to me....
Why not suggesting this for the current Live Block mech ? This will be much better.
I am doing this to try and get consensus and to detail out what people want.
Stat changes:
STR = damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%). *AP GAIN REMOVED - with more block uptime, it would be too strong.
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
Stamina/Guard:
*REWORKED*
*The Stamina Block Meter has been DOUBLED.
*Base block still = 80% DR multiplied as explained. Block can be held indefinitely after block meter diminishes but is HALF as effective (40% versus 80%) NOTE: Block can not be RAISED with no stamina but can only be continuously HELD with no stamina (meaning you cant active block unless you have enough stamina. It will only start re-charging once block is "let go".
*Confirming Block will allow for deflects and will not be ignored by things that ignore DR (like SE).
CAPSTONE REWORKS:
RECKLESS ATTACKER (Conqueror): *REWORKED* Increases damage to MARKED targets by 30%.
PROTECTOR CAPSTONE: *REWORKED* Increases block effectiveness to 100% WITH stamina and 50% without.
These capstones take advantage of both the GF class features. Conqueror buffs the offensive "tab" while Protector buffs the defensive "block".
For the math:
80% block in pvp = about 92% DR
40% block in pvp = about 76% DR
100% block = 100%
50% block in pvp = 80% DR
EDIT:Protector tree: Increased DR by 10% when below 30% Stamina Feat.
This boosts the 50% block *60% DR*20% tenacity to 84% total DR IN block. So that feat adds quite a bit of tankiness.
Mark already does 8% -DR, this 30% more damage would be a significant boost with near 100% uptime.
No . The previous suggestion is better .Unless you wish those changes applied on the current live block mech.
The problem is it will be too good on the current block meter and it still doesnt address the problem of fast small attacks draining it in two seconds. It gives certain classes like TR an advantage and classes who cant attack as fast no way of dropping block meter - which makes it too strong IMO, along with the damage buffs and DR boosts.
Since GFs will have PLENTY of uptime now, I think this system is MORE than fair. Now the GF chooses between Conq Spec and the ability to deal good damage but be less tanky, or Defensive Protector where they deal less damage but are ALOT tankier.
With THESE changes (SEE PREVIOUS POST - THESE ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN IN ISOLATION), there MAY be some possible imbalance with some feats.... So...
Changes to CONSIDER:
1) Knights Challenge - May be too strong for a single target burst with 30% more damage from Mark (doubles with KC). I dont have a solution here, but it could be too "cheesy" with more crit and more damage and cause an issue.
So maybe look at dropping the damage, but also look at possible giving the GF and advantage on others when using it. So something Like: Locks you and your foe in combat, dealing 50% more damage to eachother, HOWEVER additional ranks increase damage by 15% AND extend duration putting the GF at 80% bonus damage (down from 100%) while foes only deal 50% more damage. This leaves the net effect close to the same as on LIVE, but enemies wont deal quite as much damage in return.
This cuts down on damage "cheese" and gives slightly more "utility".
2) Armor of Bahamut Should be moved deeper into the Protector Tree. Basically this is a 10% DR boost which is about 4x stronger than the 5% more deflect T1 feat. For a T1 feat this is too strong.
Simple SWAPPING it for "shieldmaster (T3 feat)" would more than suffice. Now players cant go full Conq OR Full Tact and still get this feat - reserved for basically Protector Tree.
3) Re-Inforced Surge This does nothing in PVP. Suggestion would be, BASE frontline surge acts as a STUN, RE-Inforced Surge returns the PRONE both in PVE and PVP.
SPEC IRON VANGUARD/SWORDMASTER
FEEDBACK from play testing in pvp and pve first i'll start with our at-wills
cleave:
still the good old go to cleave not much to look at here (if it were up to me i would remove feated cleave from conqueror and replace it with a new feat and just up cleaves dmg the 5%)
Weapons Master:
the dmg increase is a bonus and well needed i like this so far even though my choice is always iron vanguard due to playstyle.
Tide of Iron:
still a great at will although the 10% stamina recovered is just not enough to even effect the shield mechanic on the PTR so -1 for this at will.
Crushing Surge:
what can i say that hasnt already been said this needs to have it's animation time increased(some would argue that it's about the same as cleave it's not your deluding yourself)and the heal on the 3rd strike boosted higher then it would be worth slotting over cleave feated or not. overall still the same
Threatening Rush:
all i can say is thank you for not making this at-will a charge skill for us it's the GWF mechanic of being able to sprint into a threatening rush that warrented the change but for us guardians it's a sorely needed mobility boost not to mention a great marking mechanic again +1 for this change
Aggravating stike:
you have rendered this skill useless with the new block mechanic the uptime from your shield aonly lets you get about 4 hits in before your shield is depleted if this is the case just remove the skill all together it only worked with live block because there was never any reason to move very far in dungeons while using it and shielding now we dont even have enough time to even use it effectively.
Shield bash:
what can i say this is even worse than aggravating using this in no way shape or form does anything to help your shield regen it just keeps depleting away no matter how many times you bash this is very broken delete this skill
Now onto encounters:
Lunging strike:
very very dependable skill from testing it's still great keep it that way
Enforced Threat:
I love the new cap on mobs and threat however i dont like the fact there is no way to block said pack of mobs that are wailing on you using this also doesnt seem to recover guard meater much if at all and should be looked into
Gryphons wrath:
a nice skill in my opinion for pve but in pvp however the slow pace of it makes it and the fact players are actually moveing makes it not very dependable the stun should be increased so you are guarenteed to land the following hit if you so chose to do so with tenacity and everything stuns only last like .5 seconds which ill get into later with FLS
Knee breaker:
i have no love for this skill it misses more than it connects during testing not much has changed same old same old
Knights Challenge:
still a very good skill especially for boss fights in pve however to all you complainers out there about using it in pvp i just laugh at you this skill is only viable against undergeared PuG groups that your trolling or you just like seeing numbers pop on screen in real pvp against people who know what they are doing your dead the second they notice this skill on them which isnt very hard. this is in my opinion is fine as is.
Anvil of DOOM:
this skill needs to be upped to enemy health at 35% up from 25% giving the guardians a nice little damage boost
Front Line Surge:
same for pvp as live however with the new stuns it doesnt work very well making us have to choose maybe diffrent options for pvp in my opinion if you can make guardians have non charged threateding rush and gwf have charged why cant you just leave our FlS alone this is just one more thing that hurts us in pvp and i dont even use it when i pvp.
Flourish:
same as usual the dmg buff is nice still a slow casting time
Into the Fray:
has the potential to be one of the best if not the best group buff mechanic in game which it should be. from testing the guard recovery from this is the same as other encounters 0 or not noticable at all. the temp Hp your teammates get should be higher making it more effective and it should also increase groups damageontop of runspeed and actiaon point game not a huge amount but just a little.
Iron Warrior:
on PTR this skill seems to not do what your notes said from when shield is held till when it is depleted then immediately after activating this does not indeed make it regenerate 50% faster it seems to regenerate at the same rate as if i never activated the skill at all activating this skill after shield depletes should give me pretty close to full block again in a matter of .15 seconds taking into the .25 posted or maybe not either way it doesnt appear to work as intended also the temp hp should be beefed a tiny bit more than what it is i know it's based off of how much of your total you are missing but still seems like not a lot.
Knights valor:
great skill for a party but with the new block mechanic using this after using enforced threat or even bfore and then when your block meter goes you just signed your death see you 6 feet under. especially considering we now get 200% of our allies threat transfered to us.
bull charge:
i would love to have the old bull charge back it made for great node holding in pvp now it's hit or miss but i am thankful that this is still a knockback and not a stun lets keep it this way devs we cant afford anymore nerfs to our control powers. all in all still holds up.
now lets do class talents
Shield Talent
at max rank on PTR this seems to have no bearing on the new block recharge and even in protector spec with full profound set still nothing im gonna say not working as intended possibly because you moved from how much old block goes to how much new block gives back something might not be adding up. either way broken imho
Enhanced Mark:
threat up 75% +1 for this although with this slotted threat was never really an issue in dungeon in fact i dont see why we need threat increased at all once we have aggro most things are dead in a matter of seconds anyway. id say a mediocre buff at best a band aid on a much larger problem.
Guarded Assault
oh the things i could say about this would fill this whole thread so i will just say this considering the uptime of our new block this talent needs a buff in a big way i would say going from 1/2/3% to 2/6/10% would be very helpful in both pvp and pve considering mobs will be hitting your block for a shorter amount of time and in pvp your block still depletes the same. like i said it also makes up for the shorter block duration and it now makes it helpful as opposed to the neglible amount it did before if it went this way.
BUG/WHY?
Guarded Assault also does not proc weapon enchants like Plague Fire, Fire Bile, ect it should considering you are the one damaging the opponent i dont know if this a bug or not but i dont see why it shouldnt it's like this on live. however it does proc with briartwine and the like armor enchantments also it does proc Teneberous so why not weapon enchants?
Ferocious reaction:
for this talent it's the same on live however i would suggest upping the activation time on this down to 1 min to 2 mins feated(down from 3) and 3 mins normal un feated giving us a way to stay in longer fights incase a group member goes down or there is no cleric.
Trample:
same not much to say about this one
Enduring warrior:
this should be 1/3/5% on killing a foe instead of 1/2/3% i suppose it's OK for solo questing but useless in group setting since we dont do enough damage to kill most things anyway.
Steel blitz: same nothing much to say here.
Steely defense:
a great skill in my opinion especially if you go down the tactician tree for pve but for pvp eh nothing to write home about it does have potential though. in regards though still the same
Steel Grace:
nothing to add here
now onto the motherload BLOCK:
my feedback:
this on paper this sounds fantastic but in the game it's no where near that. our class is essentially crippled by this new mechanic as outlined in some of the reasons with at wills and encounters i understand the need for a new mechanic but this isnt the way to go
i would say leave this on the back burner till you have it ironed out.
it feels akin to a certain determination bug during mod 2 realease (the old players will know this) and if you release block the way it is now there will be a huge backlash and remember determination didnt get fixed until well into Mod 2 this is how it's going to be now if they release this to live in it's current form you will have killed out one class mechanic and it wont get fixed till well into mod 4 or maybe not till . so please consider that before going live this needs to be ironed out completely or else there will be uproar(if any GF's are still around to do it most will have moved to HR's and CW's)
block should have 100% DR not 80% i know it doesnt amount to much but hey why block if we still get hit especially since we dont have a dodge to completely avoid the attack all together.
lets say this the reason live block seems to deplete so fast with small hits is this large hits are effecting it correctly small hits also effect it correctly in pve.
but what people dont understand is that lets say in pvp when a TR hits your with duelist flurry it's not his initial attack thats depleteing your guard meter it so fast it's the added bleed effect ticking every second coupled with bilethorn or plague fire the problem is when you block an attack whatever attack that has a DOT effect on it block registers them instead of negating them from the intial attack that is why it depletes so fast duelist flurry enfeeblment all those if blocked should block the DOT but it doesnt that is why shield is destroyed so quickly and now you know if you didnt.
i truly do hope the developers are reading these feedback and bugs from people. the suggestions from other players are nice but please can we have more actual feedback and tests being done and not most of this pipe dream nonsense.
I could really get behind this. My GF would love having a party buff as a tab ability. The only down side would be the loss of the enduring mark, but they could make all GF marks enduring and then put this on the tab mechanic. That would make them more powerful than GWFs marks (a GF should have more threat generation than even a Sentinel GWF, in my opinion).
Please make this happen, devs!
- B
and change the sword into a brom, and the shield into a trey, since our SWORD is not for dps, and our shield hardly blocks, it just look rediculous. or maybe ponpons? and a skirt as an armor? that will feet what we do now: runing around try to stay alive
I'd also like to know this. I haven't had the chance to test this in PVP.
Does Pin Down and Reinforced Surge increase the stun duration in PVP? Does Crushing Pin increase damage a stunned foe takes? If not, these 3 feats become next to useless in PVP.
Very good points here. those were pretty key aspects of not only GFs play but GFs damage as well...
REinforced Surge IMO should bring BACK the prone to Frontline... I mean your spending 5 feat points for heaven's sake....
Pin down should affect stuns as well giving stuns .1/.2/.3 more in duration.
Crushing Pin AND Trample the Fallen are now USELESS in PVP... Those were pretty big damage boosts for GFs.....
REALLY need to consider these Crush! GFs need some love! And NOT just in the form of "increase stamina duration" that wont cut it... This is STILL going to be a dead class... If your gonna resurrect it, do it, but this feels like just a kick in the nuts to GF while they are down.... GFs have not been good in over a year with the stalwart nerf.... Every mod has made them worse in comparison to other classes. They got nothing with Swordmaster, they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> node holders, NOT tanky and nothing is changing...
Doesn't matter if you spam the same irellevant nonesense over and over again (i stopped counting at 20+ repeats btw..) The developers should not take your "advice" because you are merely trying to get the GF nerfed into oblivion, for whatever reason.
---
Your suggestions are nothing but nerfs to our damage, remember what we are lacking? That's right DAMAGE.
As it stands, Crescendo is extremely weak and thus not useful to slot for Guardian Fighters on Swordmaster Paragon, same with Steel Blitz, as those are based off the higher GWF weapon base damage.
By the same token, Indomitable Strength on Iron Vanguard Great Weapon Fighters still deals more damage than possibly intended, again due to weapon base damage scaling. This is a problem because Indomitable Strength is much faster to execute than Crescendo, allowing the Great Weapon Fighter to continue using other attacks/movement earlier, giving it already more effective damage than Crescendo.
Pls stop the spam!!!, I think everyone saw your GF feedback like 5 times at least.
IM so lost as to why you keep saying this will nerf damage.....
1) more crit chance = MORE DAMAGE
2) 30% more damage to marked targets capstone = MORE DAMAGE. (You have to have about 12k power to get a 30% dmg boost from the capstone btw, 30% BOOST, so you have to take the damage % number you get from power and halve it - thats what the capstone GAVE you)
So..... yes.... GFs need more damage... and im tying to give them more damage.....
Maybe im not clear on this. I REMOVED the damage after crit idea as I agree it may pigeon hole too many people forcing them to stack crit, and made it a PURE 30% MORE DAMAGE TO MARKED TARGETS capstone.
Yeah i like that idea a choice is always best then no one can complain ^^
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Crit isn't the right Option . We need an ensured way to land dmg not an "HELLUVA EASY TO EVADE" critical hit ....And just defend the old block for god's sake . No1 wants the new one .
Also when someone attacks that target they get a movement speed debuff that stacks x amount of times or something.
Then you got something worth a tab slot.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
We could put a proposal of the most important changes and make it among several GF who know the class well and from every spec (SW/IV and Conqueror/Protect/Tactician), so we could do something with more weight, rather than everyone proposing changes that look good to them and nobody else...
I dont want the old block, it sucked. I also dont want the new block either... it sucks MORE.
The problem is we shouldnt be defending the "old block" its VERY rare that DEVs make changes to the PTR then go back on those changes. What is VERY common though is they make changes, then will MODIFY changes based on feedback.
So the issue is we can say all day long we want the old block, but it will never happen. They almost never revert something back (I think the only thing ive ever seen was the stealth change for TRs but thats offpoint).
The old block sucks, the new one is worse. I believe the "perma" block approach with stamina will work fine(a small modification to the block they put on the PTR).
Either that, or I have also been in favor of just a "damage pool" we can block with the shield. My only issue there is seeing how they like to do things, this would be too small an amount and just wouldnt work well either....
BTW, it wasnt my idea for perma block it was AntMonsters, it also wasnt my idea to ADD to that as well to make block more effective with stamina, then without stamina its LESS effective (while holding for "perma" block).
Im merely trying to combine all the changes into 1 post and move it forward otherwise you have 10 people all saying different suggestions and thats how we end up with nerfs. DEVs take pieces of different ideas pitched and piece them together and it makes broken mechanics, so suggestions need to be taken as a WHOLE or ignored.
BTW- I am not in favor of the "class buffs" as a tab idea, as I agree with others that GFs DO need more damage.
Mark: Targets who are Marked have -20% damage resistance against strikes from the Guardian Fighter. Targets who are marked still have -8% damage resistance against the Guardian Fighter's allies.
Feats: Conqueror: Reckless Attacker: *Rework* When struck in combat you gain Reckless Attacker. Reckless Attacker increases your damage by 5% and Critical chance by 2%. Reckless Attacker lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Much appreciated Crush! I like these changes quite a bit, thanks. Seems like when you are STRUCK you gain this so pretty sure itll have ALOT of uptime at full stacks.
I am STILL very leery about the block changes though and would love to see your thoughts on various block options.
Its pretty clear the current (LIVE) and PTR versions are NOT very appealing.
Does marking work in PVP also?
Yes and it always has.