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Upcoming CW changes in module 3
azeryk1
Member Posts: 105 Arc User
Are there any big changes coming to CWs in module 3?
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Honestly I doubt there will be any,
If the dungeons weren't so mass mob intensive in a way that actually keeps parties from completing them without AoE support it might be. But they're not.... so nerfing AoE damage only makes them uncompleteable. I suspect they are finding out the real reason CWs are lower end in PvP but higher end in the Dungeon Crawls... is because the CW's damage is not single target. They actually do less damage than other classes when on single targets...
But their damage gets multiplied by an enormous extent the more and more mobs there are. So it's actually an illusion. It's not actually high damage... its just damage multiplied by enormous numbers of mobs, making it appear ungodly in Paingiver.
Great burst, for quick damage... but very low sustained damage. In PvP though... the mages can't multiply their damage like that, because everything is single target for the most part.
Its also why everyone complains about everyone ELSES damage in PVP but not the mage despite the fact its the same character in both.
And the control powers have been nerfed so bad in PvP the CW is no longer a control wizard even in PvE. Which compounds the problem when the already low single target damage of the mage is combined with an overall damage nerf to all classes damage in PvP. hence why they don't compete very well.
If you want to test this and see it for yourself. Open a foundry, slap a mass amount of mobs in a large group and watch the CW just go to town with AoEs like its nothing... Slap down one or two strong mobs in various locations... and suddenly it takes a lot longer,
Where other classes will just zip right through it like its nothing (exception of maybe the DC).
The CW has strengths and weaknesses just like any other class, but putting them constantly in their strongest suit... makes them seem god like and able to take out armies, which... is really what they were designed for.
Right on right on right on right on.....
Honestly CW's are the weakest character on both pvp and pve, even on AoE it loose to anyother class, currently HR's are the most powerfull AoE class, moslty ppl dint realize that(ty god if they do CW's life'll be hard)a well geared HR can control mobs alot better than CW's due to latest nerfs. i've created a hr and i can tell u, if used corretly it control like hell and i cant even compare the damage output and survival from my hr to my better geared CW.
So if CW's take another nerf it'll become umplayable due to stupid ppl saying they are op, god killers, master of AoE and god like controllers, usualy they dont even play CW and theink we'r a god class and on real we'r a **** of class going to be useless very soon.
Sorry for my bad english
I. Don't. Even.
Just...wut. My CW utterly ruins dungeons, regardless if I'm solo or part of 2+ CWs. Only top destroyer spec GWF are better for pure damage right now. HR has terrible control.
Please don't provide input if you don't know what you're talking about, thank you.
It would be interesting to see them adjust the Arcane Mastery slot so that it doesn't add extra damage, but a massive control effect to powers, while delivery less up-front damage.
For example, Icy Terrain in Tab could have it's damage reduced by 50%, but area increased 300%. Shard could have it's damage reduced, but function like a targetable meteor that prones everything in a singularity sized radius. Entangling force could be turned into a mini-singularity. Things like that.
You could dramatically increase the utility of the class, while cutting down on the damage potential.
However, methinks we're too far along to make a more drastic change like that, and what we'll just see is a 20-30% nerf to the damage of all the CW powers across the board. Far less interesting, but so much easier.
ok man, april fools is over.
Bzzzt wrong answer.
Once you've played a CW for a very very long time... and have a great deal of experience in the real D&D game on top of that, combined with extensive DM experience and running modules and setting up encounters you start to see what the real problem is.
Because you know the balance between the classes and the actual intents of how they all function togather in a group.
But let me pose a question to you...
Do you EVER need more than one GF or tank in a dungeon?
Why?
Its because they actually tank very very well, one is all you'd ever need, even in situations where boss is tankable (Shortage of those is the actual problem). More than one is overkill. What they don't have is agro control in mass mob situations. So no matter how many of them you grab its not going to fix that. And they have lower damage, so even bringing a ton of them won't assist the party any more.
Why is it in D&D you never see multiple mages in any given party?
It's because they actually do an enormous amount of damage, you don't need more than one, because one can easily do its own job in any given situation. One can already anhiliate the entire room of monsters. Two is a lot of wasted space.
Now...
What is different in this game with a Single Mage in a dungeon?
In this game, one mage cannot do that with a single spell, in fact in mass mob situations he's mashing buttons like a mad man trying to keep up. Teleport, nuke, teleport, nuke, singularity, nuke, nuke, nuke.... because each mob is so strong one mage nuking strong mass mob crowds over and over and takes literally more than one to do the job of a single mage.
I can answer that one right now.
And honestly I do have an actual fix to the situation, and its the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what you'd suggest. But then again you never understood the balance of the classes, and what its supposed to be, nor did the Devs really. Or perhaps they really do, but are under the assumption that button mashing and constant casting are what keep players "excited" and given the low attention span these days they might have a point.
To make the actual mage do what he's supposed to be able to do in this game and fill his role properly without having to require 3-4 mages in a party you're actually going to have to INCREASE his damage.
Yeah shocking I know.
In the real D&D game if you want to match it up to the party dynamic and bring other classes back to the table in a full party situation in THESE dungeons... you're going to have to increase the mage damage x2 or even X3... and at the same time... double or triple the spell recast times accordingly.
Mages shouldn't be throwing 10 million spells. They should only be using one or two per encounter maximum. One fireball, should be all that's needed, then maybe tossing in a few magic missiles and lightning bolt on occasion. Unless the HAMSTER really hits the fan. Then maybe 3 or 4. But they also shouldnt' be able to cast and cast and cast repeatedly like that either. They are there to clear out the mass mobs and leave only a few stronger ones standing, those are what the fighters and rogues then take on.
The mage is there with that powerful fireball that literally tips the balance of the hopeless encounter to the party's favor in one shot. But when they can't do that... and can't do their own job, or it takes multiple wizards to do that... guess what happens?
Yeah people are going to stack the hell out of parties with them just to survive these dungeons.
So... guess what... you're walking in the complete opposite direction you SHOULD be because the solution, is the complete opposite you believed it to be. Its supposed to be ONE or TWO very very powerful spells, then a long wait to use them again. Not multiple constant lower powered AoE spell damage that has to be maintained constantly before the mass of mobs kills the party.
So what did you end up with in the current... lower damage mage situation? Yeah multiple mage stacking in parties to do the job one mage normally does.
LOL, sorry your actual D&D experience counts for absolutely diddly in a carebear action arcade game. I could say this nicer, but there it is. This bears no real relation to D&D in any way, shape, or form outside of names and places. That's it.
5x CW can already solo all the available content. What you propose would make CW the only class in the entire game. I mean, it already is the only class in the game but your 'solution' would cement that fact in everyone's mind instead of just those players who know better.
This game isn't D&D in any functional way, and you of all people should realize that.
If you want a game where all of your 'experience' actually means something, I suggest you go and play Dungeons and Dragons Online as it is superior in every meaningful way except for graphics. (Which actually, after thinking about it, it does better at that too. Which is sad.)
http://www.ddo.com/en
Amusingly, I redownloaded DDO immediately after hearing about Module 3 and am about to uninstall Neverwinter again. It's that bad.
I DO... however... D&D also lights the way...
.... I said increase his damage... not his DPS... those are two different things. The solution I just gave you was very straight forward, and even keeps the CW from being able to Solo content.
Here... I'll Illustrate... Shards of Endless Avalanche on average does around 9-15k damage unless you're talking a 15K+ Gear score. The 15k+ guys can really put a hurting on things.
The recast timer is around 11 seconds. That isn't enough damage to take down a full mass of mobs... So what REALLY happens in a party is both mages taking turns with them, The first one goes off, taking the mobs down a little, the second goes off taking down a little further... a fourth nuke takes them down, all the way down to about the 5th nuke between them.
Thats what REALLY happens in an actual multi-wizard party and the reason people stack multiple CWs. Because it really takes that many to nukes to burn down that crowd of mobs.
Now... if one Wizard's Shard does say...
45k damage... but has a recast timer of 33 seconds rather than 11 its the same DPS... but requires only ONE nuke in place of 3 wizards nuking at the same time. So his DPS is actually the same... but his damage is MUCH higher.
No need for 3 Wizards, only one doing the job of one...
I am wondering how they will argue against that...
They stack multiple CWs not just dps. They are highly experienced gamers! I have lots of gamers with main CW on my friendlist. CWs game required lots of testing, doing ACT, reading builds, kicking dummies...
These ppl probably can go through CN/VT/DK with blindfold eyes.
If he swaps to Gwf/DC/HR I am totally fine with it!
I would rather bring an experienced gamer from friendlist than someone unexperienced and geared from my own guild...
Gwfs with tremedously buffed (+30%+40%=+70%! )IBS encounter will do very high damages. Probably over 80-100k+ crits...
It will be better than TRs Shocking Execution daily...
I agree with that in the 15k+ GS range.
I've run with some high powered groups before. And the 2 GWF + 2CW combo plus Cleric is just ungodly once all the buffs and debuffs kick in. So yeah, they are definitely optimal groups. GWFs are my preferred melee in any group because I can nuke down the smaller stuff and stack it all on the GWF who can take down the more elite mobs. Togather the CWs handle one side, the GWFs the other and its a perfect match.
EDIT: To add the base damage from both isn't anything special, but once you throw in the Cleric buffs, High Viz debuffs, CoI Debuffs, and Nightmare Wizardry Combat advantage bonuses. The group does insane levels of damage.
DPS is only accounted for during a combat encounter. Your spell cool downs continue out of combat.
What your solution would do is shoot the DPS of a CW through the roof. And what people would do would be to bring a full party of wizards, all casting their big damage, high cool down spells at once, instantly annihilating any group, then move on to the next big pack and repeat, destroying the entire dungeon with absolute immunity.
So your "solution" would have the exact opposite effect.
This.
You could make the cool down on every wizard power one minute long and it wouldn't make any difference what-so-ever. This doesn't even address the fact that Wizards have four encounters. Even in a perfect world of your own making, who would want to play a class that can only dump it's wad every minute or so then is forced to watch and do nothing for that period of time?
That dynamic only really makes sense in a game where you have upwards of 15-30 'powers' to choose from. This game gives you three, four, or six depending on class. Making CW's better able to 5x stack content isn't a solution to stacking 5x CW for the easiest and fastest dungeon clears possible.
Every single class other than CW is completely dead weight in Neverwinter content. If you don't understand that 100% fact by now, it means you either aren't playing a CW or haven't played in a 5x CW team. This isn't meant to say that all other classes are 100% garbage, it just means CW is that much better than any other option.
Leaps and bounds better, in fact. Other things are obviously viable and even fun, but if you want to make AD in the fastest way possible it's CW stacking or go home.
It's laughable to me that a CW with just some lifesteal gear can actually out heal a DC while out damaging every other class. Maybe laughable is the wrong word. Game breaking would be the phrase I'm looking for.
It's a tank/heal/DPS/control class. It's the whole trinity, self contained. Cryptic needs to do something about that fast, and nerfing GWF and HR into the ground doesn't do a single darn thing about it. It actually makes the problem much, much worse but hey does anyone even still play this game?
And after a year of this exact same game meta, what does Cryptic do? They promise some vague 'fixes' to CW sometime in the murky future. Yeah, I will use my telekawhatsit powers to correctly predict that what they are saying is that they plan to add a warlock striker class at about the same time as they cut CW damage by 50% across the board.
Don't believe me? Book mark this thread and re-read it in a year. You'll think I'm psychic.
I fail to see that or even how...
You can't sit and nuke and nuke and nuke with long recast timers. Its not logically possible. Even if you stacked that many you're still only going to be using one caster at a time, because there's only so much damage you can do to any group of mobs before they die. So if they all nuke... then they're all stuck on their long recast timers... and have to sit and wait on them again.
What you are stating is not logistically possible, as mobs have limited health, not unlimited. If one Wizard's nukes can cover that on the adds... nuking more wizards at once just wastes spells on nothing. And... the recast timers mean they're going to be waiting a while to be logistically able to do it again.
SO.... stacking a ton of Wizards will do no good, if one mage is capable of burning the adds without any other mage help.
Stacking extra wizards will do the exact same thing as it does in D&D... it will be a waste.
Once you nuke, you're going to be on hold a long time. On top of that, it solves the PvP issue as well. The damage would now be very noticeable.
Increasing the damage but also increasing the individual timers as well keeps the actual DPS the same, the only difference is that it gets spent all in one place.
Ergo... increased damage... increased spell timers = same DPS + less need for multiple mages in party.
Right now... the lower damage AoEs combined with fast recast timers IS making people stack mages.
Umm no. CW damage is actually pretty mediocre. It only looks good on paper due to all the trash mob heavy adds.
Lets take a look at a few boss encounters. Say you were fighting just Hrimnir and no adds. Who do you think would be doing better damage? A CW or a GWF? How about VT or MC final bosses? Would you even want a CW in your group if they nerfed their damage? Hell no.
If you want to look at the real picture, ignore all the crappy adds and look at the damage output that matters.
Yes I would, because when you count debuffs (its about 1,6x dmg right now) it will be still more effective to have CW in group. Let do strikers their job. CW should not be striker but controler. Imagine if you had as CW 3x more AP gain, debuffs could not be stacked but with 100% uptime. Debuffs could be too boosted, if you want keep overall group damage same as it is now.
So you still could do same job as now in dungeons but instead 3 CWs you will have in group 1 and 2 strikers.
This game used to be that way... about maybe a year ago... Unfortunately the path you talked about was pretty much nerfed to oblivion almost a Year ago. So it is no longer possible. Mutliple attempts have been made to get the Devs to reverse course on this.
They have not and will not.
The Controller Wizard is now effectively dead. At least the one it used to be. It now is a full on Wizard/Sorcerer and a Striker with a few Single Target CC abillities.
The Devs reversed course on the control wizard and show no signs of changing. In fact they seem to be going in the exact opposite direction and removing control powers completely from CWs. You may as well remove the Controller portion of the name at this point. It's long dead and has been for some time.
Its time to give it up and let it rest in peace.
Dealing damage is a form of control. A dead mob is a controlled mob.
(emphasis added)
Source: http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Controller
Well, the "Controller Wizard", based on the very naive and simplistic view of "control" as merely "repositioning the mob", is dead. As it should be.
What ought to happen is for CWs to have to make a choice between the two different forms of control: either control via position, or control via damage.
In the game, as it stands right now today, you rush through about 30-50 add's in a dungeon pissing them all off with a team of 5x CW. Now, after everything is good and angry you annihilate every last one of them in one skill rotation. This is how the game works right now, as of today. Best case scenario they just take turns nuking and waiting.
So raising the damage of encounters is going to make that exact same playstyle even more profitable and require the other classes that much less. If you don't see that, then you haven't been playing long.
This doesn't even address the fact that, once again, this isn't like a lot of other MMO's. You don't have 30 powers to choose from, you have four. If each one of those four powers take 10 minutes to cool down what do you expect people to do during the recharge time when the dungeon itself takes ten minutes to complete?!?.
So sorry Silver, you just don't know enough about this game and haven't played enough high end content to have formed a rational opinion on this. You should, once again, go play an actual D&D game (http://www.ddo.com/en) instead of one that merely ripped off every last name and place from the campaign and setting while taking away none of the meat and potatoes from those game systems.
Please show me, in any D&D game, where fireball has a target limit of 5. I triple dog dare you.
As for 'suggestions' for the CW? Easy. Reduce CW damage by, at minimum, 25%-50%. Increase the durations of control powers by 25%-50%, and change the cap for each true control power to ten targets. How many Wizard's even spec with Wisdom above the absolute minimum? Maybe 3 in the entire game?
That is an illustration of how absolutely broken the base class is when virtually no one at all has stat's in the 'control' stat (myself included). I mean that seriously, it's absolutely ridiculous that it's so much more profitable to spec for damage that it's a joke if you went with Wisdom. That needs to change, and soon.
This is all considering that Cryptic was boneheaded in the extreme when they didn't decide to release a striker magic user class alongside the Control Wizard. They broke even the possibility of fixing things when they released Neverwinter with one general purpose magic user that does every PvE role the best. I mean, there are so many D&D lore mage types that you could fill a book with them and we get one? Lazy. Time isn't an excuse anymore either, they've had plenty of it and we've got one class and a few paragons extra from release one year ago. (And half of those paragon's are actually worse than the originals.)
Cryptic didn't learn from City of Hero's Dominator's that control classes that nuke things are entirely too powerful.
Bzzzt... wrong answer,
I started this game back around July of last year. Left the game right when Feywild came out. Came back in December and have been playing ever since.
I run with crowds in the 15K GS range all the way down to the 11k GS range, and even the occasional 9k GS.
In other words... unlike YOU I get to see the full spectrum of the game, and function in multiple party configurations with MULTIPLE groups, have rebuilt my own character exploring the Thaum, Renegade, AND Oppressor path at various times.
I am not focused on the UBER crowd and so stuck on the uber geared parties. I have however run with them many times, so I know how they operate and what they're capable of...
However... I ALSO know what the average joes are actually like in this game vs the uber crowd.
Do not make the mistake of believing otherwise.
You however... seem to lack the understanding of what the common crowd can do... vs what the guys who pay thousands of dollars for a character can do. I am fully familiar with it.
And yes... the Control part of the Wizard is dead, and has been for almost a year after the nerfs. Its dead and gone and has been that way for almost a year now.
The Devs made this decision, they're not and have not desired to suddenly and mysteriously reverse course. They have moved forward on the Striker aspect.
This is what we have now, you're going to have to live with it... the same way I had to way back when, when it actually happened.
I almost exclusively PUG, I have no idea what you mean by seeing the full spectrum of the game considering I leveled through all of the content currently available just like anyone else. Perhaps the difference is that I have 4 level 60 characters who are geared, so I have the added benefit of playing things extensively that are not the CW. There is virtually no comparison, my CW out performs any other class with comparable or even higher gear score with the exact same player behind the wheel.
The playstyle I refer you to is the playstyle no matter what your GS is. Certainly it will be less effective if you are at the base level GS for running a given T2, but it's still easier in the manner described with the classes described. It's actually even more effective at lower gear scores. It's the fact that controlling a group of things is better tanking than a 'tank' trying to hold their aggro. That's a central PvE issue and always has been.
...an average joe group of 5x CW is still better than an average joe rainbow group. Unless by 'average joe' you mean 'hopelessly incompetent players', in this case I would argue that no class composition is going to save fools from themselves. Also, who pays thousands of dollars for a character? I've paid maybe $20 dollars to Cryptic in a year, everything else that I have is farmed through content. Implying I bought some mythical advantage widget without outright accusing me of being a carebear character purchaser/exploiter is rather coy of you though.
I'm confused here because I've actually played this game significantly longer than you have. So are you trying to say you remember more nerf cycles than I do? If you're making that claim, you might want to try checking someone's join date before assuming they haven't been around long enough to recognize a half-baked fool notion when they see it.
Hmm...then why does your forum profile read as January of this year? Were you perhaps banned at one point? I would be curious as to why, but if Caturday is the reason then I laugh at you and your opinions.
This is where you claim you forgot the password to your old account and had to make a new one. Predictable.