Although I don't main my TR, my feeling is that a lot of the QQ about GWFs being better at ST DPS has little or no real basis. From your posts I get the impression you run with (on average) higher GS parties than I do. How does the TR single-target compare to that of a CW or GWF at the top level in PvE? Smoke-bomb is admittedly very nice in certain situations, but is their ST damage high enough and required often enough that TRs are useful in current dungeons at the top end compared to a CW (or even pre-Mod 3 nerfed GWF)?
no, making use of TRs single-target dps(it is the best single target dps no doubt) means slowing down the run. the meta atm is to chain pull everything and mow them down with aoe significantly decreasing the duration of a run. time is gold, nobody wants to waste time.
Although I don't main my TR, my feeling is that a lot of the QQ about GWFs being better at ST DPS has little or no real basis. From your posts I get the impression you run with (on average) higher GS parties than I do. How does the TR single-target compare to that of a CW or GWF at the top level in PvE? Smoke-bomb is admittedly very nice in certain situations, but is their ST damage high enough and required often enough that TRs are useful in current dungeons at the top end compared to a CW (or even pre-Mod 3 nerfed GWF)?
TRs usually do 50% of my CW's damage in adds heavy dungeons like FH or SP, and can kill a maw extremely quickly, and CW i'm only doing 20-25% more damage than them in karrundax, just because of the adds during the boss fights. I don't have any reference, all I can say is that 100k lashing blades aren't that uncommon, especially if the cleric is buffing. My spec and spells aren't ideal for karrundax though, but 18-20 minutes runs can be a good reference, for what it's worth.
Executionner STR/DEX (not sure about stat rolls, just the best damage ones) rogues are very useful in pve, and there's no way a GWF can outdamage the ones I play with when it comes down to killing an elite or a boss. I'm mostly playing with 15k/greater or perfect vorpal people though, so I don't know how it is at lower level with no weapon enchantments.
But with the OMGWTF destroyer buffs GWFs are going to get in module 3, I'm not sure rogues are going to be able to compete anymore. Deep gash on live is valuable in a adds heavy situation, and quite poor for single tar'get damage, but all this is going to change and I'm not really confident about it. It means a straight +40% damage buff for single target damage too.
TRs usually do 50% of my CW's damage in adds heavy dungeons like FH or SP, and can kill a maw extremely quickly, and CW i'm only doing 20-25% more damage than them in karrundax, just because of the adds during the boss fights. I don't have any reference, all I can say is that 100k lashing blades aren't that uncommon, especially if the cleric is buffing. My spec and spells aren't ideal for karrundax though, but 18-20 minutes runs can be a good reference, for what it's worth.
Executionner STR/DEX (not sure about stat rolls, just the best damage ones) rogues are very useful in pve, and there's no way a GWF can outdamage the ones I play with when it comes down to killing an elite or a boss. I'm mostly playing with 15k/greater or perfect vorpal people though, so I don't know how it is at lower level with no weapon enchantments.
Thanks for the quick reply. Mostly it is pretty close to what I have observed too, although I am impressed that near the top-end well-built TRs can still get 80% of the DPS of CWs in certain dungeons.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Completely wrong. There aren't that many adds at once if you don't pull 5 groups at the same time. If the devs find a way to make people killing groups one by one then all classes will have a role in game. Including rogues. If you can't mass AoE elite adds then you need a TR to kill them and a tank to hold nasty stuff.
Since WHEN?
I have never been in upper level dungeons where I was NOT on average facing at least 10+ mobs per spawn point let alone boss mobs... and no we're not talking about grabbing every spawn in the place. We're just talking common spawns here that average 8-15 mobs per.
Yeah grabbing 5 groups at a time nets you about 30-40 mobs, but only REALLY high gs groups do that. I know I don't even think about it unless we're talking a good 15k+ GS party. But the average player is looking at about a 11k-13k not 15k GS.
I just walked into Malabogs Last night and not a single spawn numbered less than 10 in the first outdoor areas. Let alone some of the really bad ones for adds. The only exceptions I've ever seen were ToS and Dread Vault T2.
Its almost like you and me are doing two different versions of dungeons.
Currently, people don't invite rogues because rogues don't want to bring any utility to parties, they're all pvp spec, which means horrible damage, so they won't use smoke bomb, trying to keep up with the rest of the party, and of course, such pvp rogues are utterly useless. I have some pve TR friends and invite them all the time, they deal with maws, driders, or bosses faster than anyone else, and roughly need the time aoe classes need to kill the surrounding weaker mobs. And of course they drop smoke bombs everywhere, which is a great help when you're pulling a crapton of NPCs at once.
I have done many 12-13 minutes ToS runs and ~20 minutes spellplague caverns, and it never happened without one of my TR friends...
I won't disagree,
Rogue Single target damage is very high when you see one specced for PvE, but they are not very good at all in mass mob situations. Never have been, its not their strong suit. I did run ToS up to the boss with only two CWs and a Rogue once. I don't think anyone would ever say a rogue can't do damage... its the complete opposite.
The flipped side is, I once attempted that same thing in Malabogs with two rogues, a CW and a Ranger. The group got slaughtered a lot. Eventually in order to keep the party alive I had to practically solo the entire thing.
I have never been in upper level dungeons where I was NOT on average facing at least 10+ mobs per spawn point let alone boss mobs... and no we're not talking about grabbing every spawn in the place. We're just talking common spawns here that average 8-15 mobs per.
Yeah grabbing 5 groups at a time nets you about 30-40 mobs, but only REALLY high gs groups do that. I know I don't even think about it unless we're talking a good 15k+ GS party. But the average player is looking at about a 11k-13k not 15k GS.
I just walked into Malabogs Last night and not a single spawn numbered less than 10 in the first outdoor areas. Let alone some of the really bad ones for adds. The only exceptions I've ever seen were ToS and Dread Vault T2.
Its almost like you and me are doing two different versions of dungeons.
Hm maybe, I have to admit that I have never closely watched the number of mobs in a single group. Seemed closer to 7-10 rather than 15 though, except during boss fights.
The sad part is that in most dungeons, except ToS, even if you're playing legit, you can sneak past elite mobs, and that's where TRs shine. Elites should be a mandatory kill in some way, they aren't here for the show, they're here to add some use to the "underclasses".
Rogue Single target damage is very high when you see one specced for PvE, but they are not very good at all in mass mob situations. Never have been, its not their strong suit. I did run ToS up to the boss with only two CWs and a Rogue once. I don't think anyone would ever say a rogue can't do damage... its the complete opposite.
The flipped side is, I once attempted that same thing in Malabogs with two rogues, a CW and a Ranger. The group got slaughtered a lot. Eventually in order to keep the party alive I had to practically solo the entire thing.
It seems that a lot of the pve TR knowledge has been lost since beta. At that time, finding good TR players was doable, now, you better add them to your friendlist when you see one.
Most of the TRs in game now are playing with high INT, which doesn't help, and slotting dps spells in their encounter bar, so they spend their time dodging, doing a little flurry here and there when they can, but the good ones I know often use smoke/ITC just to be able to stay locked on their target until it's dead. That's a bit suicidal but it works extremely well. When I see a TR using the conic dagger aoe and/or impact shot, i feel sorry for him.
Comments
no, making use of TRs single-target dps(it is the best single target dps no doubt) means slowing down the run. the meta atm is to chain pull everything and mow them down with aoe significantly decreasing the duration of a run. time is gold, nobody wants to waste time.
TRs usually do 50% of my CW's damage in adds heavy dungeons like FH or SP, and can kill a maw extremely quickly, and CW i'm only doing 20-25% more damage than them in karrundax, just because of the adds during the boss fights. I don't have any reference, all I can say is that 100k lashing blades aren't that uncommon, especially if the cleric is buffing. My spec and spells aren't ideal for karrundax though, but 18-20 minutes runs can be a good reference, for what it's worth.
Executionner STR/DEX (not sure about stat rolls, just the best damage ones) rogues are very useful in pve, and there's no way a GWF can outdamage the ones I play with when it comes down to killing an elite or a boss. I'm mostly playing with 15k/greater or perfect vorpal people though, so I don't know how it is at lower level with no weapon enchantments.
But with the OMGWTF destroyer buffs GWFs are going to get in module 3, I'm not sure rogues are going to be able to compete anymore. Deep gash on live is valuable in a adds heavy situation, and quite poor for single tar'get damage, but all this is going to change and I'm not really confident about it. It means a straight +40% damage buff for single target damage too.
Thanks for the quick reply. Mostly it is pretty close to what I have observed too, although I am impressed that near the top-end well-built TRs can still get 80% of the DPS of CWs in certain dungeons.
Since WHEN?
I have never been in upper level dungeons where I was NOT on average facing at least 10+ mobs per spawn point let alone boss mobs... and no we're not talking about grabbing every spawn in the place. We're just talking common spawns here that average 8-15 mobs per.
Yeah grabbing 5 groups at a time nets you about 30-40 mobs, but only REALLY high gs groups do that. I know I don't even think about it unless we're talking a good 15k+ GS party. But the average player is looking at about a 11k-13k not 15k GS.
I just walked into Malabogs Last night and not a single spawn numbered less than 10 in the first outdoor areas. Let alone some of the really bad ones for adds. The only exceptions I've ever seen were ToS and Dread Vault T2.
Its almost like you and me are doing two different versions of dungeons.
I won't disagree,
Rogue Single target damage is very high when you see one specced for PvE, but they are not very good at all in mass mob situations. Never have been, its not their strong suit. I did run ToS up to the boss with only two CWs and a Rogue once. I don't think anyone would ever say a rogue can't do damage... its the complete opposite.
The flipped side is, I once attempted that same thing in Malabogs with two rogues, a CW and a Ranger. The group got slaughtered a lot. Eventually in order to keep the party alive I had to practically solo the entire thing.
Hm maybe, I have to admit that I have never closely watched the number of mobs in a single group. Seemed closer to 7-10 rather than 15 though, except during boss fights.
The sad part is that in most dungeons, except ToS, even if you're playing legit, you can sneak past elite mobs, and that's where TRs shine. Elites should be a mandatory kill in some way, they aren't here for the show, they're here to add some use to the "underclasses".
It seems that a lot of the pve TR knowledge has been lost since beta. At that time, finding good TR players was doable, now, you better add them to your friendlist when you see one.
Most of the TRs in game now are playing with high INT, which doesn't help, and slotting dps spells in their encounter bar, so they spend their time dodging, doing a little flurry here and there when they can, but the good ones I know often use smoke/ITC just to be able to stay locked on their target until it's dead. That's a bit suicidal but it works extremely well. When I see a TR using the conic dagger aoe and/or impact shot, i feel sorry for him.