Kicked for not using Singularity

humanpirhana

Twice in a row now, within the last few days, I have been kicked from teams at the end of Frozen Heart runs right before final chest for the sin of not using singularity as a control wizard. This has occurred despite the fact both runs went smoothly and deaths were minimal and very arguably not due to lack of control. The reason I am not using singularity is simple: I recently respecced to Master of Flame paragon path to try it out. The flame path has a heavy emphasis on smolder which is DOT and in keeping with this approach I have replaced singularity in my daily bar with Furious Immolation, which also gathers mobs into a tight group and does damage but arguably the duration of mezz is not as long. To counter this for runs like FH which have large numbers of mobs and in which tanks often like to kite groups of mobs together into large groups, I make sure I am using steal time and maelstrom of chaos, probably my two most heavy aoe control options otherwise available.

As previously stated both of these runs went smoothly and quickly with few if any deaths and a fast pace to the end boss which in both instances was dispatched with little difficulty. For the end boss I did trade out all my aoe mezz powers for ST damage in order to focus on boss while tank kited adds, a common tactic. In the first run, I was told early on, not asked, TOLD to use singularity. When I ignored the asking parties request it was repeated and I offered a deal in response, that I would not tell him or her how to play their class if they would not tell me how to play mine, and asked if that seemed fair. I got no reply, and as I stated the run went smoothly to the end until I was kicked from team after final bosses defeat. The same thing occurred in a run I participated in just now, only there was not even any request in chat for me to use singularity, just some non English speaking person yelling on voice something I couldn't understand but which was probably directed at me since I did pick out the word singu in his indecipherable rantings. Again, my reward for a smooth run in which I constantly spammed control powers and finished 3rd in damage dealt despite trading damage for control was to be summarily kicked from team before the final chest. No discussion, no inquiry as to why I wasn't using the requested power, nor acknowledgement of the fact that things went just well without it, just a boot.

What I would like to know is if this sort of behavior is reportable and considered out of bounds by the devs, or are teams well within their rights to kick me just because I am not doing things the way they think I *should*? Again, I would like to repeat that in both instances I was kicked at the end of runs that went quickly and smoothly, so arguing that I somehow held the team back or wasn't contributing don't IMO hold water.

morsitans

Put everyone from those parties on ignore list, join /legit, never pug again.

Seriously, some pugs are just outright awful. Ok, some are actually surprisingly good, but if you start chatting to your party from the outset, you can usually tell whether it's going to be a good run or not. If it's not, consider whether it's really worth your time.

And again, join legit.

mconosrep

Kicking you at the end chest is greifing and should be reported.

If they had kicked you when you had initially refused to use singularity, that would have been harsh (and probably the wrong thing to do), but not unacceptable as far as the Terms of Service define it.

pointsman

humanpirhana wrote: »

The reason I am not using singularity is simple: I recently respecced to Master of Flame paragon path to try it out.

humanpirhana wrote: »

I make sure I am using steal time and maelstrom of chaos, probably my two most heavy aoe control options otherwise available.

Umm, Maelstrom of Chaos is not available to Master of Flame CWs. MoC is a Spellstorm-only daily.

Plus, MoC is awful as a daily anyway. If you're trying to use that at FH last boss, the animation is so slow, you'll be stunned by 3 golems before you even get it cast.

chemboy613

Immolation vs sing depends in the situation, if there are less than 8 mobs, actually, immolation is better than sing.

Since there are so many golems, force might be the best in some situations in fh.

So I don't think your decision is all that bad. People are just like this sometimes (can't express my feelings without having text changed to symbols) and sorry about that.

Feel free to ask me about MoF, anytime.

lemonchill

humanpirhana wrote: »

Twice in a row now, within the last few days, I have been kicked from teams at the end of Frozen Heart runs right before final chest for the sin of not using singularity as a control wizard. This has occurred despite the fact both runs went smoothly and deaths were minimal and very arguably not due to lack of control. The reason I am not using singularity is simple: I recently respecced to Master of Flame paragon path to try it out. The flame path has a heavy emphasis on smolder which is DOT and in keeping with this approach I have replaced singularity in my daily bar with Furious Immolation, which also gathers mobs into a tight group and does damage but arguably the duration of mezz is not as long. To counter this for runs like FH which have large numbers of mobs and in which tanks often like to kite groups of mobs together into large groups, I make sure I am using steal time and maelstrom of chaos, probably my two most heavy aoe control options otherwise available.

As previously stated both of these runs went smoothly and quickly with few if any deaths and a fast pace to the end boss which in both instances was dispatched with little difficulty. For the end boss I did trade out all my aoe mezz powers for ST damage in order to focus on boss while tank kited adds, a common tactic. In the first run, I was told early on, not asked, TOLD to use singularity. When I ignored the asking parties request it was repeated and I offered a deal in response, that I would not tell him or her how to play their class if they would not tell me how to play mine, and asked if that seemed fair. I got no reply, and as I stated the run went smoothly to the end until I was kicked from team after final bosses defeat. The same thing occurred in a run I participated in just now, only there was not even any request in chat for me to use singularity, just some non English speaking person yelling on voice something I couldn't understand but which was probably directed at me since I did pick out the word singu in his indecipherable rantings. Again, my reward for a smooth run in which I constantly spammed control powers and finished 3rd in damage dealt despite trading damage for control was to be summarily kicked from team before the final chest. No discussion, no inquiry as to why I wasn't using the requested power, nor acknowledgement of the fact that things went just well without it, just a boot.

What I would like to know is if this sort of behavior is reportable and considered out of bounds by the devs, or are teams well within their rights to kick me just because I am not doing things the way they think I *should*? Again, I would like to repeat that in both instances I was kicked at the end of runs that went quickly and smoothly, so arguing that I somehow held the team back or wasn't contributing don't IMO hold water.

1 if you have members names report them
2 if u see 2-3 members (if it is a pug party) from same guild start to worry
3 from my personal experience dont join parties that are from east European Russia south America they tend to be the biggest sob and i dont care how much (fire) im going to get now from ppl living there that is coming from my own personal experience!
4 join a good guild with members you can trust or join a legit run channel where you can be sure ppl will not cheat etc.

chemboy613

Yeah, this experience sucks. The thought of trying new things is good and honestly he wasn't even trying something outlandish. People just suck sometimes.

humanpirhana

Oops sorry about that. I typed MoC when what I meant was Shard of the Endless Avalanche. For some reason my brain tends to mix these two up since they're right next to each other in the powers window even though I've never actually used Maelstrom of Chaos.

chemboy613

humanpirhana wrote: »

Oops sorry about that. I typed MoC when what I meant was Shard of the Endless Avalanche. For some reason my brain tends to mix these two up since they're right next to each other in the powers window even though I've never actually used Maelstrom of Chaos.

Maelstrom isn't good

When I wrote my MoF guide people said how do you beat fulminorax without maelstrom? It was hilarious.

iliveforpvp

humanpirhana wrote: »

Twice in a row now, within the last few days, I have been kicked from teams at the end of Frozen Heart runs right before final chest for the sin of not using singularity as a control wizard. This has occurred despite the fact both runs went smoothly and deaths were minimal and very arguably not due to lack of control. The reason I am not using singularity is simple: I recently respecced to Master of Flame paragon path to try it out. The flame path has a heavy emphasis on smolder which is DOT and in keeping with this approach I have replaced singularity in my daily bar with Furious Immolation, which also gathers mobs into a tight group and does damage but arguably the duration of mezz is not as long. To counter this for runs like FH which have large numbers of mobs and in which tanks often like to kite groups of mobs together into large groups, I make sure I am using steal time and maelstrom of chaos, probably my two most heavy aoe control options otherwise available.

As previously stated both of these runs went smoothly and quickly with few if any deaths and a fast pace to the end boss which in both instances was dispatched with little difficulty. For the end boss I did trade out all my aoe mezz powers for ST damage in order to focus on boss while tank kited adds, a common tactic. In the first run, I was told early on, not asked, TOLD to use singularity. When I ignored the asking parties request it was repeated and I offered a deal in response, that I would not tell him or her how to play their class if they would not tell me how to play mine, and asked if that seemed fair. I got no reply, and as I stated the run went smoothly to the end until I was kicked from team after final bosses defeat. The same thing occurred in a run I participated in just now, only there was not even any request in chat for me to use singularity, just some non English speaking person yelling on voice something I couldn't understand but which was probably directed at me since I did pick out the word singu in his indecipherable rantings. Again, my reward for a smooth run in which I constantly spammed control powers and finished 3rd in damage dealt despite trading damage for control was to be summarily kicked from team before the final chest. No discussion, no inquiry as to why I wasn't using the requested power, nor acknowledgement of the fact that things went just well without it, just a boot.

What I would like to know is if this sort of behavior is reportable and considered out of bounds by the devs, or are teams well within their rights to kick me just because I am not doing things the way they think I *should*? Again, I would like to repeat that in both instances I was kicked at the end of runs that went quickly and smoothly, so arguing that I somehow held the team back or wasn't contributing don't IMO hold water.

Dude... Just use sing and then don't get kicked. You do have a choice to completely ignore what is the standard, just know that they have the choice to kick you if you do. Basically, don't be an idiot and do fine, or suck and deal with it good times.

melodywhr

morsitans wrote: »

Put everyone from those parties on ignore list, join /legit, never pug again.

Seriously, some pugs are just outright awful. Ok, some are actually surprisingly good, but if you start chatting to your party from the outset, you can usually tell whether it's going to be a good run or not. If it's not, consider whether it's really worth your time.

And again, join legit.

the full command for joining the legit community is /channel_join NW_Legit_Community

and yes, kicking for questionable things especially right after the end boss is killed is reportable. screenshots and @account names are helpful. i'm sure with all of the recent feedback on this subject, the devs are looking into other options so hopefully we'll see some solution for this soon.

eldarth

Welcome to F2P = Massive increase in asshats.

As someone earlier mentioned - if they kicked out after final boss before chest -- report for griefing.
...and /ignore.
...and only go with /legit people.

warpet

humanpirhana wrote: »

Twice in a row now, within the last few days, I have been kicked from teams at the end of Frozen Heart runs right before final chest for the sin of not using singularity as a control wizard. This has occurred despite the fact both runs went smoothly and deaths were minimal and very arguably not due to lack of control. The reason I am not using singularity is simple: I recently respecced to Master of Flame paragon path to try it out. The flame path has a heavy emphasis on smolder which is DOT and in keeping with this approach I have replaced singularity in my daily bar with Furious Immolation, which also gathers mobs into a tight group and does damage but arguably the duration of mezz is not as long. To counter this for runs like FH which have large numbers of mobs and in which tanks often like to kite groups of mobs together into large groups, I make sure I am using steal time and maelstrom of chaos, probably my two most heavy aoe control options otherwise available.

As previously stated both of these runs went smoothly and quickly with few if any deaths and a fast pace to the end boss which in both instances was dispatched with little difficulty. For the end boss I did trade out all my aoe mezz powers for ST damage in order to focus on boss while tank kited adds, a common tactic. In the first run, I was told early on, not asked, TOLD to use singularity. When I ignored the asking parties request it was repeated and I offered a deal in response, that I would not tell him or her how to play their class if they would not tell me how to play mine, and asked if that seemed fair. I got no reply, and as I stated the run went smoothly to the end until I was kicked from team after final bosses defeat. The same thing occurred in a run I participated in just now, only there was not even any request in chat for me to use singularity, just some non English speaking person yelling on voice something I couldn't understand but which was probably directed at me since I did pick out the word singu in his indecipherable rantings. Again, my reward for a smooth run in which I constantly spammed control powers and finished 3rd in damage dealt despite trading damage for control was to be summarily kicked from team before the final chest. No discussion, no inquiry as to why I wasn't using the requested power, nor acknowledgement of the fact that things went just well without it, just a boot.

What I would like to know is if this sort of behavior is reportable and considered out of bounds by the devs, or are teams well within their rights to kick me just because I am not doing things the way they think I *should*? Again, I would like to repeat that in both instances I was kicked at the end of runs that went quickly and smoothly, so arguing that I somehow held the team back or wasn't contributing don't IMO hold water.

play with guild

humanpirhana

iliveforpvp wrote: »

Dude... Just use sing and then don't get kicked. You do have a choice to completely ignore what is the standard, just know that they have the choice to kick you if you do. Basically, don't be an idiot and do fine, or suck and deal with it good times.

Here's the problem with your response: Either you didn't read my post and comprehend the part where I repeatedly said the run went smoothly and quickly despite the fact I didn't use the power they requested, or you don't care and are of the opinion that all players should be bound to "conventional wisdom" of what is best. Most likely it's a combination of both, your reading comprehension is fail AND you think "the way everybody does it" is the only way to do it right. Either way, I was neither being an idiot nor sucking, since the group did fine and I held my own despite not doing it there way. The most disturbing part is that contrary to what other posters have made clear in the thread, you seem to think it's fine for such groups to grief me by kicking at the end rather than when the dispute arises, if indeed there was any open and clear dispute ( Hard to call someone ranting on voice in a language you don't understand a clear dispute). I can only hope that your good times ingame are as good as the ones I described here

melodywhr

iliveforpvp wrote: »

Dude... Just use sing and then don't get kicked. You do have a choice to completely ignore what is the standard, just know that they have the choice to kick you if you do. Basically, don't be an idiot and do fine, or suck and deal with it good times.

sing isn't the standard. there's a time to use sing and a time not to use sing. depending on the party's make up in frozen heart at the end boss, using anything against the mass of trolls and golems is going to put the aggro focus on the squishy CW so it's usually better to have a GF as a part of the group. plus the CW's build could also play a large part as to whether or not sing is the encounter power to use. the problem in some pugs is everyone's an expert and when someone starts telling me how to play my character, it's time to go.

as the OP stated, they didn't have issues with the run. they killed the final boss. someone either had an issue with the OP's play style or just decided to be a jerk. either way, it's uncool and there's no justification for it.

humanpirhana

warpet wrote: »

play with guild

Often I do play with guild, however some of my free time occurs during the day, when the majority of my guild is busy with nine to five jobs and family responsibilities. I do plan to take up the suggestion of using the legit channel and avoiding pugs after these experiences, but it's disheartening that such behavior is prevalent enough that these measures are necessary. C'est la vie I guess, but if the GM's made more of an effort to deal firmly with such behavior, there's a good chance it might cease.

luckycharms1979

I guess I'm just not sure what the pug group wanted since on most of the successful FH runs I've done on CW, which are numerous, Sing is the last thing the group wants for that last fight.

humanpirhana

luckycharms1979 wrote: »

I guess I'm just not sure what the pug group wanted since on most of the successful FH runs I've done on CW, which are numerous, Sing is the last thing the group wants for that last fight.

As stated in my OP, I didn't use Sing on the last fight, but traded out all my aoe for ST damage and helped focus on the boss while tank kited adds. The groups apparent problem with my failure to use sing wasn't in the last fight, but everything prior.

vorphied

humanpirhana wrote: »

Here's the problem with your response: Either you didn't read my post and comprehend the part where I repeatedly said the run went smoothly and quickly despite the fact I didn't use the power they requested, or you don't care and are of the opinion that all players should be bound to "conventional wisdom" of what is best. Most likely it's a combination of both, your reading comprehension is fail AND you think "the way everybody does it" is the only way to do it right. Either way, I was neither being an idiot nor sucking, since the group did fine and I held my own despite not doing it there way. The most disturbing part is that contrary to what other posters have made clear in the thread, you seem to think it's fine for such groups to grief me by kicking at the end rather than when the dispute arises, if indeed there was any open and clear dispute ( Hard to call someone ranting on voice in a language you don't understand a clear dispute). I can only hope that your good times ingame are as good as the ones I described here

He's just trolling you. It's fine for a group to make reasonable requests, but not fine for them to tell you how to play when you are doing nothing wrong or to wait until the very end to boot you.

I'm not a huge fan of FI, personally, but it performs pretty much the same function as Singularity as far as grouping up targets. If it had a larger target cap, I'd probably be a bigger fan since it has the advantage of not creating windows where certain Powers can miss targets completely.

pointsman

But you do have to acknowledge that a CW that doesn't use sing for an entire dungeon is a little weird.

If I saw a CW like that, my initial reaction would be that this CW is specced for PVP or something, or has no idea about proper builds. It would definitely raise a red flag.

That's not a reason to kick someone at final boss, of course. But, say in FH first boss, Sing is definitely really useful there with all the trolls.

kamenjar2

I'll put in my two cents. I agree with both arguments:
1) No one should be kicked for not having singularity. That is just outright rude and lame.
2) I'm no MoF expert, but IMHO you don't have singularity in your daily slot, you are doing something wrong unless there are 2 other CWs in the group.
And the reason for that is that Singularity is simply the ultimate CW power for large mob packs because:
- It packs the mobs in one spot. Making them vulnerable to team mates AOEs. If a group of mobs is consistently packed, the odds are it will die FAST. If you didn't use it, even if you did more damage in the end, you prevented team mates from having maximum damage.
- It adds extra ~5 seconds of crowd control allowing you and your buddy CW's cooldowns to cycle. You move in, drop icy terrain, steal time, SoEA and sing. Then by the time it is done, your steal time is ready.

If I ever did MoF, I would sacrifice an encounter that it just occasionally helpful or situationally better than others for Singulairty.

diogene0

LOL. I use ice storm and OF exclusively before the second boss, while doing 15 mins runs at most. I guess I should be kicked too.

vorphied

pointsman wrote: »

But you do have to acknowledge that a CW that doesn't use sing for an entire dungeon is a little weird.

If I saw a CW like that, my initial reaction would be that this CW is specced for PVP or something, or has no idea about proper builds. It would definitely raise a red flag.

That's not a reason to kick someone at final boss, of course. But, say in FH first boss, Sing is definitely really useful there with all the trolls.

To play Devil's Advocate, Furious Immolation is a very similar power. Not as good at what Singularity does as Singularity is, but it's adequate for that purpose. He's still grouping mobs together, just using a different method. Unless it somehow causes issues for the party, it should be overlooked IMO.

loboguild

It's best to feel out pugs to a certain degree. I always start with the standard rotation + sing in dungeons on my CW and switch according to how the run goes. If there are discussion like the one you mentioned, just use sing and ignore the fools afterwards. Biting back like "I don't dictate how to play your class, yadda yadda" is counterproductive and will only lead to the sort of trouble you've experienced.

The public perception how to do stuff is very narrow but it's in your best interest to align and search for friends or a guild that either welcome or even utilize your playstyle.

melodywhr

sing and furious immolation are indeed similar and i won't put both of them in my daily slots, although i have put three points into both. FI is faster and easier to use when bowling for trolls with my magical meatball. almost always in the other daily slot is OF because that is by far the more powerful control daily.

but this is totally a play style issue. if someone doesn't like how i play, i guess i'm in the wrong group to begin with. it still doesn't give someone a right to kick me after the last boss is killed.

rashylewizz

I understand your point, but the way it happened in the first scenario you presented with you not speaking and not following instructions and then arguing about it, I would've kicked too out of frustration.

Its not perfect, but you gotta follow instructions and cooperate with the team.

Again, if I were in their position, I would've kicked you. But if I was in your position, I would've been angry at it as well

I guess what I'm saying is respond immediately in a non-passive aggressive way. I know they started it, but if you truly did not want any hostility, you wouldn't have propagated it.

djarkaan

rashylewizz wrote: »

Again, if I were in their position, I would've kicked you.

After the last boss before the chest? You are a griefer I see...

humanpirhana

pointsman wrote: »

But you do have to acknowledge that a CW that doesn't use sing for an entire dungeon is a little weird.

If I saw a CW like that, my initial reaction would be that this CW is specced for PVP or something, or has no idea about proper builds. It would definitely raise a red flag.

That's not a reason to kick someone at final boss, of course. But, say in FH first boss, Sing is definitely really useful there with all the trolls.

And yet I knew exactly what I was doing and was able to do my job without it, largely because I knew that while FI performs much the same function, it doesn't mezz as many or for as long, and compensated with other aoe controls. So if you thought me weird, and my behavior raised a red flag, would that truly be because of something wrong with not using singularity, or your own ignorance of what I *was* doing instead and how it worked?

I've noticed that almost no one who screams for me to use singularity seems to have any idea what FI is or recognize it's animation when it happens because they're so used to seeing AS's more obvious and lengthy animation, yet as previously stated, it performs largely the same function. In the same vein those who call me out for not using AS pay no attention to my spamming of steal time and shard of the endless avalanche. IMO, it boils down to this: many non CW players, and even some CW's who've never stepped outside the box of doing things the expected way have a mindset that they know what I should be doing despite the fact they actually know very little about my build or what I'm actually doing.

humanpirhana

rashylewizz wrote: »

I understand your point, but the way it happened in the first scenario you presented with you not speaking and not following instructions and then arguing about it, I would've kicked too out of frustration.

Its not perfect, but you gotta follow instructions and cooperate with the team.

Again, if I were in their position, I would've kicked you. But if I was in your position, I would've been angry at it as well

I guess what I'm saying is respond immediately in a non-passive aggressive way. I know they started it, but if you truly did not want any hostility, you wouldn't have propagated it.

Let me ask you a question in return: Do you consider a teammate arbitrarily ordering you to use a given power when things are going smoothly without it proper instruction or do you consider it arbitrary and unfair behavior? I *was* cooperating with the team, as previously stated we were clearing the entire run in an efficient and effective manner. If there had been problems, repeated deaths, slow progress etc, that might have been one thing, but I was basically ordered to do something out of the blue, not asked, ORDERED, when everything was going fine. In that situation you're basically blaming me for responding in a way you describe as passive aggressive? My only response to that quite honestly is whatever, as I seriously doubt your response in the same situation would have somehow been better. And if someone did honestly have a problem with my playstyle at the outset and my response was unacceptable, the time to deal with that issue is right then and there, not kicking after the final boss, and you and I both know that so you can stop implying I am somehow at fault for not cooperating with demands that weren't reasonable or reasonably presented.

As for my propagating hostility, I guess I'm like a lot of people: Approach me in a reasonable, respectful manner and you'll get the same in return. Start our conversation by arbitrarily throwing your weight around when I don't know you from Adam or (even better) yelling at me in voice in a language you have very good reason to believe based on my character name and guild tag I don't speak and chances are good any response will be in kind. I'd bet dollars to donuts the same holds true for you my friend.:D

pers3phone

First, sorry you got kicked, report those guys.

Second, keep in mind the guys you ran with might have more experienced CWs of their own, and sometimes it's good to heed advice.

Third, there's a place for everything, and sing is important, even as a MoF. Sing is extremely good in many situations as it allows up to 15 mobs to be gathered together and be subjected to shards, steal time, sudden storm and oppressive forces. DoT is less important than CC and preparing mobs for focused AoE.

Fourth, there are many degrees of "fast" and "smooth" clears of a dungeon. For you maybe fast clear means 45 mins without dying, for that very geared other guy might mean 20 mins speed AoE run of everything in sight.

silverquick

humanpirhana wrote: »

Twice in a row now, within the last few days, I have been kicked from teams at the end of Frozen Heart runs right before final chest for the sin of not using singularity as a control wizard. .

Which seems shocking since...

Singularity doesn't work on the Ice Golems. So if you used it in that final fight its only going to affect the Trolls anyway. While I used it there on the Troll/Wolf combos. There are a lot of situations in there where something else is better.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm HUGE on Singularity myself, but these guys apparently do not know the limitations of the CW control spells.