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Deflect Rogue and Tenacity
godlysoul2
Member Posts: 661 Bounty Hunter
First off, I'd like to know if anyone has tried the old deflect/hp/regen build well geared on the preview shard with tenacity? I heard that there was at least one tank rogue that people were amazed with the tanking ability of with the introduction to tenacity.
I feel like the reason this build didn't work was because despite the fact it could offer great mitigation on deflects, getting stunlocked or bursted by multiple people (or sometimes one person if you get unlucky with deflects) could still kill you. Now, with the large bonus defense from tenacity and spike damage reduction, I feel like this build would be much more viable when combined with a stealth based build. Before deflect stacking got nerfed on GWF, it was the primary tanking build. Now, DCs are still stacking deflect for tanking. In addition, with reductions due to healing depression, perhaps deflect could offer an interesting alternative to pure HP/regen stacking. It is good not to ignore the extra damage per deflect as well with the fey boon, which would be very interesting against rogues.
That is the first reasoning behind possibly reviving this build. The second though, is the PvP set stats that are being introduced for rogue. The top tier set exchanges hp for deflect, and is a reason why many people don't want to go with it because builds are CON + hp based as well as people cannot stack enough deflect to make its effects seem significant. However, this will allow you to get better stats, 30% stealth, and extra damage from stealth on your gear with a deflect build.
Another reason I am interested in this build again is because the ability to stack deflect well previously came at that cost of losing HP/regen in defense sots or accessory gear (ring/belt/neck). It also wasn't viable to be able to stack deflect through armour due to the significant arm pen losses and stealth duration loss. That is now an option.
Ultimately though, going with a deflect build requires high CHA. I plan on trying max CHA with rest CON. This leaves the question of survivability compared to stealth based builds. However, despite the fact that this build will not stack INT or recovery as high as other builds, from my testing it seems that a stealth based build is still just as viable on this type of character as on the current game. This results from being able to take the +30% stealth from the top tier PvP armour rather than 25%. This build will still require some recovery stacking though.
A final reason for considering this build again now is the reworking of the stealth mechanic to reduce/prevent permastealth/permimmune capability which is headed this way. This seems to be the most viable for non pure stealth/survivability builds due to so easily hitting basic stat caps on the typical main PvP stats when not needing to stack recovery for stealth based builds if updates were to truly make them on par or less desirable than non stealth builds.
What do you guys think and have any of you tried this yet? Also note, while I call this a deflect build, this build is employing the conventional stealth build as well as some hp/regen/(some defense) stacking rather than simply pure deflect. Pure deflect is not a good idea and a decent cap on deflect stacking could almost be reached just from the new deflect gear + deflect boon. Just from using the two +400 regen rings with defense slots + artifacts/boons, ~1.4-1.7k regen will still be used on this build (depending on artifact levels) and all defense slots will be radiant enchants. Recovery comes from neck/belt, artifact, and offense slots. Arm pen already reaches decent amounts from gear/boon. I do actually plan rather than going with standard lantern artifact getting one to stack more defense as well though, so two defense boosting artifacts would also be utilized for the small defense stacking since defense is so much lower than arm pen/crit. (Will need to run the numbers again at some point though to make sure it is still a good option, but I thought it would work just about as well for bonuses overall except that it could be effective in multiple vs 1 scenarios for tanking where as crit/arm pen will only benefit taking out a single target.)
This build was just something I was thinking/planning out a while ago before I took ~1 month or so away from this game and am considering going with again as I may get back into it. The main motivation truly was the idea of nerfing stealth based builds though, and I know someone who plays a defense/deflect/hp/regen stacking rogue on live server now with good success + non-stealth.(This is not a known rogue on forums or well known in the game though. Yet, his build is still very top tier and works fantastic even in the competitive PvP setting. He employs a unique version of the build that works much better than the traditional "tank" rogue builds that are attempted on live server currently. Of course, some of the success could be attributed to the high rank enchants though, so it could be hard to gauge just how effective it really is from what little I've personally seen and experienced in 1v1.) This was in addition to hearing that there was a tank rogue on preview shard with fantastic results. Either way, this build can function as a stealth build till those nerfs would take place, then could easily switch out of the light recovery enchant stacking. Who doesn't enjoy the idea of going with a unique build though too. This post has gone on long enough. Let me know what you think.
I feel like the reason this build didn't work was because despite the fact it could offer great mitigation on deflects, getting stunlocked or bursted by multiple people (or sometimes one person if you get unlucky with deflects) could still kill you. Now, with the large bonus defense from tenacity and spike damage reduction, I feel like this build would be much more viable when combined with a stealth based build. Before deflect stacking got nerfed on GWF, it was the primary tanking build. Now, DCs are still stacking deflect for tanking. In addition, with reductions due to healing depression, perhaps deflect could offer an interesting alternative to pure HP/regen stacking. It is good not to ignore the extra damage per deflect as well with the fey boon, which would be very interesting against rogues.
That is the first reasoning behind possibly reviving this build. The second though, is the PvP set stats that are being introduced for rogue. The top tier set exchanges hp for deflect, and is a reason why many people don't want to go with it because builds are CON + hp based as well as people cannot stack enough deflect to make its effects seem significant. However, this will allow you to get better stats, 30% stealth, and extra damage from stealth on your gear with a deflect build.
Another reason I am interested in this build again is because the ability to stack deflect well previously came at that cost of losing HP/regen in defense sots or accessory gear (ring/belt/neck). It also wasn't viable to be able to stack deflect through armour due to the significant arm pen losses and stealth duration loss. That is now an option.
Ultimately though, going with a deflect build requires high CHA. I plan on trying max CHA with rest CON. This leaves the question of survivability compared to stealth based builds. However, despite the fact that this build will not stack INT or recovery as high as other builds, from my testing it seems that a stealth based build is still just as viable on this type of character as on the current game. This results from being able to take the +30% stealth from the top tier PvP armour rather than 25%. This build will still require some recovery stacking though.
A final reason for considering this build again now is the reworking of the stealth mechanic to reduce/prevent permastealth/permimmune capability which is headed this way. This seems to be the most viable for non pure stealth/survivability builds due to so easily hitting basic stat caps on the typical main PvP stats when not needing to stack recovery for stealth based builds if updates were to truly make them on par or less desirable than non stealth builds.
What do you guys think and have any of you tried this yet? Also note, while I call this a deflect build, this build is employing the conventional stealth build as well as some hp/regen/(some defense) stacking rather than simply pure deflect. Pure deflect is not a good idea and a decent cap on deflect stacking could almost be reached just from the new deflect gear + deflect boon. Just from using the two +400 regen rings with defense slots + artifacts/boons, ~1.4-1.7k regen will still be used on this build (depending on artifact levels) and all defense slots will be radiant enchants. Recovery comes from neck/belt, artifact, and offense slots. Arm pen already reaches decent amounts from gear/boon. I do actually plan rather than going with standard lantern artifact getting one to stack more defense as well though, so two defense boosting artifacts would also be utilized for the small defense stacking since defense is so much lower than arm pen/crit. (Will need to run the numbers again at some point though to make sure it is still a good option, but I thought it would work just about as well for bonuses overall except that it could be effective in multiple vs 1 scenarios for tanking where as crit/arm pen will only benefit taking out a single target.)
This build was just something I was thinking/planning out a while ago before I took ~1 month or so away from this game and am considering going with again as I may get back into it. The main motivation truly was the idea of nerfing stealth based builds though, and I know someone who plays a defense/deflect/hp/regen stacking rogue on live server now with good success + non-stealth.(This is not a known rogue on forums or well known in the game though. Yet, his build is still very top tier and works fantastic even in the competitive PvP setting. He employs a unique version of the build that works much better than the traditional "tank" rogue builds that are attempted on live server currently. Of course, some of the success could be attributed to the high rank enchants though, so it could be hard to gauge just how effective it really is from what little I've personally seen and experienced in 1v1.) This was in addition to hearing that there was a tank rogue on preview shard with fantastic results. Either way, this build can function as a stealth build till those nerfs would take place, then could easily switch out of the light recovery enchant stacking. Who doesn't enjoy the idea of going with a unique build though too. This post has gone on long enough. Let me know what you think.
Post edited by godlysoul2 on
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If I wanted an "I can run around and defend myself forever" tanky class, I'd have chosen a GWF or a GF.
Is it not that the whole point of a rogue/assassin class in these sort of games to be a high-risk/high-return combatant that relies on acute situational awareness which makes you choose when to strike and when to run, and strike hard and true when you indeed decide it is the time to do so?
I dunno about you, but it seems like more and more people are simply wanting the TR to be "The Amazing Spiderman", not jut another ordinary class out of 4~5 choices. Something that can stand in the midst of multiple enemies and still wriggle around fighting, killing, hardly scathed from attacks, lasts a long time, and then even escapes from such situations easily. My guess is the high-end regen/semi-perma/ITC rotation settings from BIS TR players have simply warped the people's perception on the what the TR can do, and should do.
But now, with Tenacity coming, Impact Shot is nerfed, average time-to-kill increased for all classes, everyone gets a free damage reduction. What's the use of an invincible face-tanking TR when we can't kill anything?
...
We'll have to see just how much Tenacity effects the game, but I've said this before and I'll say it again. As it is, all of us TRs have already learned to live with the amount of damage we receive currently. If Tenacity comes, then that's free survivabiliy added on top of what the class is now. Do we really need that much? For me, it seems like a better idea to divert all the extra amount of stats/investments to offense -- as much as Tenacity allows, so that when we receive damage through the Tenacity-filter, we receive around similar numbers as we do currently.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You cant think of it as just gaining survivability. You definitely still need to stack survivability if you want to have one of the best builds for PvP because healing depression takes such a toll on defensive capability. I've played on private test shard, and TR still has enough damage even with using the typical stealth build to still get kills with it at a decent enough rate, even against GWF now. You don't realize how much tanking truly comes from regen + even lifesteal till you hop on and try the changes. This is why the "massive" defensive boosts in reality don't live up to expectations for the people who actually go out and try it. You hear people posting who haven't tested it that it will make the tanky more tankier, but in reality the healing depression outweighs the benefits gained from the extra resistance and damage nerfs.
There is a reason there is a survivability mindset approach to PvP in this game. That is how you win. Surviving on point the longest is how you win, as long as you have just enough damage to take other people out. That is why any top PvP build is based on survivability for any class. In addition, they are nerfing crit damage on top of the nerfs already. You might as well go with a build that relies on DF as a main skill and bilethorn for damage in this case since going straight damage will receive more of a nerf than this these stealth builds that utilize this.
Also, this build is not entirely about stacking defensive capabilities. As the game progresses with more boons, artifacts, higher tier gear, ect. It is becoming much easier to stack stats, and I believe it is best to be focusing on these stats as well rather than dumping excess points into getting over 2.5k arm pen/crit like most people do. Why not distribute out some of that into defensive stats as well? Again though, my CON/INT rogue already had enough damage to still get kills while maintaining high survivability. Even though the scaling is off, CHA gives CBA damage as well which would be even a slight boost to its damage still, not to mention this was done without using the new top tier PvP gear, which will provide even more additional damage for doing damage while sheathed that is currently provided. In addition I believe I had dodge roll feat taken from the first tree rather than points in combat advantage and extra damage on non-crits when I was doing this. Also didn't have 3rd artifact for lantern damage bonus. This was against very well and high enchanted people as you probably know everyone on PTR is.
Rogue has stealth, so they have time. They don't need to be able to burst down people. Why not sacrifice unnecessary extra damage for more survivability so you can stay on point more rather than kill slightly faster but need to respawn more often. I personally think the benefits of staying alive longer and possibly preventing another respawn are more beneficial than getting a little extra damage. Not to mention extra damage will not help you nearly as much in a multiple vs 1 scenario, whereas defensive stacking will. Stacking attack based stats affects the target you hit, stacking defensive stats affects all opponents that hit you.
Just my way of thinking about it.
I actually first learned of the build before Alysin posted the guide and was probably using it around the same time as they were. I learned about it from the guy I mentioned above in the first post who is still making changes and refining it, but using it incredibly better than anyone including Alysin ever did before. Either way, there should be some changes compared to their build. First, I decided max CHA + CON (I believe they may have switched to that too though, but I'm not sure.) Also though, I don't believe Alysin ever bothered with recovery stacking, whereas this build will stack to around 1.7k - 2.2k recovery in order to gain a permastealth rotation with the new +30% stealth gear. I do know that eventually they converted to stealth feats though, as would be taken by this build as well obviously. This is a crucial feature of this build though. Ultimately I may need to make some deflect sacrifices for a little more recovery or a bit of CON/CHA for INT until any possible stealth nerfs take effect. However, from testing it should be viable to max deflect and maintain a permaimmune build with the setup I've determined. Until any stealth nerfs take place, perma immune will always be the strongest, so its important that this build can still function with that asset (similar to the other build idea I posted before that was combining a 1 shot build with perma build) at least until any nerfs happen, in which case this build should then become the most viable TR builds.
Ultimately I don't like to think of it as someone elses build since it is way past the time of Alysin's build. This build now has to take into consideration balancing everything between new pvp gear sets, artifacts, and the new pvp neck/belt I will be using, in addition to new boons. Also, this build won't be stacking as much regen as the old builds due to healing depression.
I can't kid anyone though, its obviously a build that was derived very similarly to the guide posted. I, like anyone else, just want to feel original :P Either way this build has died off by far once people learned the premade stealth build and this build is generally considered not worth it in comparison for PvP builds anymore. I feel like the extra resistance will provide the option to make this build succeed though, so I truely think it's worth another shot. The fact that PvP armor gives such significant defelct is a curcial addition to this puzzle along with healing depression as well since Alysin and other deflect rogues eventually decided it was better to switch over to max hp/regen even with the deflect build. This left deflect stacking very minimal since at least rings + probably belt would be set for regen only with hp slots, and armour would already be set in stone as the PvP gear without deflect. Now with healing depression, regen is less effective to stack in excess, and some of that can be exchanged for hp/deflect/recovery now (not to mention an extra small tenacity boost). Also there was previously no good deflect based PvP weapons. That now changes as well.
It seems like every forum post I make gets larger than the last these day...
What vid? o.o Could someone let me know or private message me it? (pvp vid posting rules)
If you have watched a video of how devs PVP. You would find out they are about the worst PVP player in the entire game, just like all those 9k player you see in PVP
And to contribute to the thread a little, I'm actually planning to build an INT/CHA Tiefling/Sun Elf Deflect Scoundrel myself. It aims to maximize RSI for ITC, Dazing Strike and Wicked Reminder. My primary stat goals are as follows.
- Defense: 1650 (25%)
- Deflect: 3115 (20%) + 11% from CHA and 3.5% from DEX, +3% from Lucky Skirmisher. Campfire Bonus +1.5%. Total of 39%. Potion of Heroism or Elixir of Life gives an additional 3%.
- Recovery: 2360 (19%) + INT (10%). Total of 29%. For 14 seconds Smokebomb and ITC, 3 second WR, 7.8 second Dazing Strike.
Burst will not be much of a problem in PVP nowadays, neither will CC. This gives us better room to build our rogues with more unique builds. Tenacity makes it so that things won't be as perma-CC-centered as it used to be. GWF's will no longer be able to permaprone, and once Deep Gash is also fixed, things will be a whole lot more balanced.
The only thing to fix then is permastealth.
1720 Arm Pen
1650 Recovery
1730 Regen (11.6% = 1750 regen in game)
1500 Defense
980 Deflect
29000 HP
Deflect = 8.2% (stat) + 3% (skillful infiltrator) + 3% (Halfling) + 5.5% (DEX) + 3% (lucky skirimisher) + 15% (CHA) = 37.7% (w/ campfire)
However, this is with will be with rank 8 silver enchants in offense slots, and rank 7 radiant enchants in defense slots. This is also only with lv60 - 65 artifacts + boons. (I wanted to keep the numbers practical with what I am actually willing to achieve gear wise rather than what they would be maxed :P)
The issue with this is I end up only getting ~15.6s CD on ITC, so I may be swapping out for a little more recovery or may do something like 2CON/2INT to try to get it down a bit depending on how well the +30% stealth works. +2 INT brought it down to 15s on preview and I know I was running a stealth rotation just fine with ~14.6s ITC on my previous max CON account.
As you can see, the build in reality is more about maximizing potential by investing more points into things like defense/deflect rather than stacking that back into offensive stats. You already get enough arm pen and a decent amount of crit from gear/boons, so why stack it past where diminishing returns start kicking in when you haven't touched on defense/deflect/regen/hp? Healing depression makes you lose more tanking than you'd think despite gaining tenacity, so it is still viable and good to keep a focus on defensive stats as well (Aside from the pvp mode being about holding points + based on survivability).
Finally, this build is will be with max tenacity excluding rings.
I'll have to run some more numbers another time to see if I may want to switch a couple or all of those radiant defense slots into more deflect/defense instead or I'll probably just test it when the build gets closer to finished, but I seemed to like the numbers better for keeping it in HP when I worked with them a few weeks ago. I definitely still want to keep the regen regardless though. (Still +841 hp per 3 seconds at max value with healing depression + 29,000 hp (using rank 7 defense slots) but still crucial for not needing to pick up pots between fights). It doesn't sound like much but it is still a stealth build and fights still last a significantly long time, not to mention all damage will be less as well as a result from tenacity, which makes healing less more viable.
I am also interested in the idea of looking into a max recovery build that will focus on gaining AP for shocking execution since SE will "ignore targets defenses" and is still hitting fantastic on preview server compared to other skills.
(forgot to add stats from the shirt/pants themselves rather than just the extra enchant slots they provide, but w/e)
Comparing say Original GG vs any of the new (non profound) sets. The fact that none of the armors have both crit and armpen, is it really worth giving all that up for say 600 tenacity? Thoughts here?