If you spec your rogue as a tank, then you bring tanking skills (like ITC), you should expect to do only as much damage as a tank, and have the same survivability. It sounds like your build is working exactly like you should have expected it to.
I had a chance to play my GF/GWF some more with good players this time as well.
OVERALL, I have to say im fairly pleased with the changes. I ran with GG T2 gear on both characters. On live I feel like my GWF deals ALOT of burst damage and is VERY tanky but in a different way. On the LIVE servers, he is very tanky because eventhough my HP drops faster, I make up for it with regen/unstoppable heals.
On the PTR, I felt like my HP didnt drop AS fast due to tenacity, but my regen was SO much less. I felt combat was more dynamic in the sense the fights were not perpetual but slowly draining HP. The "Unkillable" builds are definitely killable 1v1 ESPECIALLY when you throw a 2nd player in the mix, people will drop fast.
I still have alot of concerns with the new stat, but overall im more excited right now than I was before.
^^ you like the changes because they're a big buff to GFs and GWfs which are the classes you play
My CW and HR friends only complain about these changes. What happened is that tanks are even harder to kill
Squishy classes hate these changes (sounds counter intuitive but its true)
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
I can't speak for HR but it seems to me that DC and CW are coming up with the short end of the stick on this one, for sure.
The armor penetration suppression needs to go - it's definitely true that already tanky classes benefit more from armor penetration suppression than focus fire classes do. DC heals need something - DCs are nothing but fodder once you've melted the rest of their team right through their heals.
^^ you like the changes because they're a big buff to GFs and GWfs which are the classes you play
My CW and HR friends only complain about these changes. What happened is that tanks are even harder to kill
Squishy classes hate these changes (sounds counter intuitive but its true)
Yeah I dont have perspective on other classes, what I CAN say is that BOTH my classes feel weaker compared to live. I dont feel like I can facetank 2v1 on my GWF, I dont feel like I can recover from a mistake on my GWF like before. I cant IBS crit someone for 15k and destroy them in 1 rotation. I cant stand on a node and laugh at a CW trying to kill me.
All of that is because of regen/heal nerf.
On my GF the same issues, when you miss an encounter it really sucks, when your regen ticks for 800 and it used to tick for like 1800 it sucks...
So while I think GF/GWF are still strong and I havnt played other classes. I think that goes both ways too, play all the classes and see the changes. On live I cant lose 1v1 on my GWF, probably same is true on PTR... BUt now its MUCH easier to 2v1 me down than before....
mistakes seem to come out more since regen/heal is much less, each move is key and ads up...
So far the pvp has been more fun than live. perfect? no way, more fun? yes.
I can't speak for HR but it seems to me that DC and CW are coming up with the short end of the stick on this one, for sure.
The armor penetration suppression needs to go - it's definitely true that already tanky classes benefit more from armor penetration suppression than focus fire classes do. DC heals need something - DCs are nothing but fodder once you've melted the rest of their team right through their heals.
I think the BIG issue is the CW pvp set sucks.... so not only are you feeling the added DR but your also forced to having to go a bad set route... either that or stay squishy...
If they make decent pvp sets that could change alot.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited January 2014
TENACITY IS NOT NEEDED!!
PvP is fun and entertaining because of the way it currently is. Only minor adjustments are required. The TR is suppose to hurt, the CW's Ice Knife is suppose to hurt! The DC is suppose to heal, the GWF is NOT suppose to be a TANK, the GF is suppose to be the TANK. The PvP system is fragile. Before module 2 everything had a ying and yang. Not saying it no longer does, but the GWF with Iron Vanguard is the number one reason why PvP is no longer balanced, but certainly not the ONLY reason. Increasing damage resistance to all classes only slows down/bores PvP matches. What I'm trying to say is, the reason why PvP is enjoyable (although some adjustments are needed) is because of the INTENSITY! The fast pace gameplay, the destruction to player's health points, the different play styles, character builds, strategies, and classes who pose threat to one another. All of it already works FINE. If you change it, there's a very good chance you will ruin PvP. Trust me when I say this.
Matter a fact, here's an example. There's this game I used to play called RS (I don't know if I'm allowed to say the full name). RS had a combat system like non-other. It was very weird, everything worked in slow ticks, player's characters look turns hitting each other. Very strange, but what made it work was the INTENSITY. As weird as it sounds, players enjoy getting hit or hitting others really hard (doing high damage). Because it causes excitement or panic, all of which is ENTERTAINING! The PvP system in RS was weird, but it worked! The day the company decided to make MAJOR changes to the combat system KILLED the game. Hundreds of players (including myself) made threads warning the company of RS, but they still went through with it. When all they had to do was scrap the idea, and make MINOR adjustments to their perfectly working PvP system. The company of RS didn't listen to the community until it was already too late. After suffering from losing thousands of players (or should I say the player's money for membership), only then did they decide to start working with the community by using polling systems for future content. Which allows the players to vote on what they want, and the company of RS would only accept polls that pass with a 75% 'yes' rate. This happened in 2012, which is NOT long ago, and RS community is still divided to this very day. My point is this...
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." <---- This phrase is EXTREMELY important to remember.
I mean think about, the MAIN things people ask for are new maps, new modes, and a better match making system. Do you understand what that means? That means people enjoy PvP the way it is, but they grow bored of playing the same modes, and dealing with rage quitters. Also, many players only PvE for the things they want or need for PvP. So yes, PvP does require a little bit of work. However the changes/updates should ONLY be made in SMALL doses fueled with feedback.
Also, I'm aware "feedback" is easier said then done. Because it's very hard to get matches on the preview server. And there's only a handful of people who actually type out constructive feedback.
But to get back to the main point of this post, Tenacity is NOT needed. Only minor adjustments.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
This isn't feedback, it's literally the exact same thing you've posted 3 times in this thread alone already. We know your opinion already.
I actually agree that tenacity is not needed (although if it works right, it could be nice), but at least when I post my opinions they come with feedback, updated with more recent experience. If you want people to take your opinion seriously you're going to have to do more than just re-post the same spam over and over.
This isn't feedback, it's literally the exact same thing you've posted 3 times in this thread alone already. We know your opinion already.
I actually agree that tenacity is not needed (although if it works right, it could be nice), but at least when I post my opinions they come with feedback, updated with more recent experience. If you want people to take your opinion seriously you're going to have to do more than just re-post the same spam over and over.
Ohh, I'm not reposing entirely (as in making copies and copies). I repost after making changes or correct spelling. I delete the old post and post the newer version. See page 11 or 12 lol. I left a message saying " (Updated) see page 19." So yeah, I'm not trying to spam or anything. Or if I see another thread that feels the same way as I do, I'll paste it instead of retyping which might change the outcome on how I feel about it. I tried making a thread, but it was moved into the OFFCIAL Tenacity thread. So it was FORCED to be homeless lol.
I finally managed to get some games in today on my DC. In only a handful of games it is hard to really be sure about things, but from those few games my cleric did not seem as weak as I expected. A comment from one of the Devs tells me why: he said hybrid builds do better in pvp.
The thing I missed, and most DC's have missed, is that damage is reduced, healing is reduced, but mitigation is not reduced! So our mitigation spells are still fully operational. In the games I played, this seemed to mostly make up for the healing nerf.
I still think this change is a mistake. The live games I played today were more fun because the pace was faster. The preview games were long slow slogs. So, not as fun. I also worry sandbag comps will dominate: just tank up and sit on points not allowing the other team any points. Two evenly matched teams might take hours to complete a match.
Also, having to change to different pvp specific gear sets in order to get the benefit of tenacity strikes me as very unwise. One big driver of the auction house gear is pvp players gearing up their newly leveled alts. The value of dungeon gear is going to go down dramatically as pvpers switch to grim coin/glory gear. Also, as I said before, some players will have to radically change their gear while others will not; this is unfair to those classes who have to change.
Next, this new stat adds complexity to the class balance which will surely lead to more special situations where things are unbalanced. Only more bugs will come from more complicated stats.
So, the bottom line is that I still agree with most of the comments above: more maps and better matchmaking is what this game needs, not hack stats like tenacity.
(On the subject of matchmaking, I actually think that a handicap is better than ranking because ranking reduces the number of players eligible to play at any given time, which will make the queues slower. Instead, a handicap which works like reverse tenacity for each win, and decays with each loss, might work fine while keeping the queues full and fast.)
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I finally managed to get some games in today on my DC. In only a handful of games it is hard to really be sure about things, but from those few games my cleric did not seem as weak as I expected. A comment from one of the Devs tells me why: he said hybrid builds do better in pvp.
The thing I missed, and most DC's have missed, is that damage is reduced, healing is reduced, but mitigation is not reduced! So our mitigation spells are still fully operational. In the games I played, this seemed to mostly make up for the healing nerf.
I still think this change is a mistake. The live games I played today were more fun because the pace was faster. The preview games were long slow slogs. So, not as fun. I also worry sandbag comps will dominate: just tank up and sit on points not allowing the other team any points. Two evenly matched teams might take hours to complete a match.
Also, having to change to different pvp specific gear sets in order to get the benefit of tenacity strikes me as very unwise. One big driver of the auction house gear is pvp players gearing up their newly leveled alts. The value of dungeon gear is going to go down dramatically as pvpers switch to grim coin/glory gear. Also, as I said before, some players will have to radically change their gear while others will not; this is unfair to those classes who have to change.
Next, this new stat adds complexity to the class balance which will surely lead to more special situations where things are unbalanced. Only more bugs will come from more complicated stats.
So, the bottom line is that I still agree with most of the comments above: more maps and better matchmaking is what this game needs, not hack stats like tenacity. (On the subject of matchmaking, I actually thing that a handicap is better than ranking because ranking reduces the number of players eligible to play at any given time, which will make the queues slower. Instead, a handicap which works like reverse tenacity for each win, and decays with each loss, might work fine while keeping the queues full and fast.)
Hmm, very interesting. How many characters do you have btw?
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I'm snipping your post (like with a pair of scissors, snip) so that I can address you specifically in reference to what you wrote without taking up the entire block of space.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I'm snipping your post (like with a pair of scissors, snip) so that I can address you specifically in reference to what you wrote without taking up the entire block of space.
So, the bottom line is that I still agree with most of the comments above: more maps and better matchmaking is what this game needs, not hack stats like tenacity.
Feedback: Gear from Gauntlegrym vendor and Trade of Blades vendor Changing existing gear is in my opinion a bad idea and usually tends to anger people (like me). Leave the current sets as they are and introduce new sets that utilize Tenacity.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited January 2014
I read through all 20 pages here. I am going to try to log to preview soon and get some play with tr, but there are so few players in preview this is difficult.
My inclination is to hate tenacity. Yes, I know some encounters are fast, but I think that's the point sometimes. If I pop lashing from stealth with a perfect vorpal it should hurt and hurt a ton! That's the whole point if the build and the skill.
secondly, while I understand the Idea for longer matches, if both players are skilled and similarly geared, match ups can go on for a real significant period of time, which is fine and needs no changes whatsoever. I guess I don't see the problem tenacity is supposed to fix.
Thirdly I don't want to have to use pvp gear to pvp. I only like the gg set for tr, and I find gg itself long, boring and tedious. The pvp is a blast if you can get in, but the rest if it is no fun. Dkc is easily clearable in 10 minutes and fc is a joke.
as for new pvp sets with new stats, cool idea, but not what game needs from gear. I am looking forward to t3 dungeons and new things to farm and sell, not more bop pvp gear without stats I want for pvp. Farming that would simply be unfun.
That at said, the most obvious things pvp needs is matchmaking (some sort of personal, team, and guild ladder I hope), and more variety. Two maps and one style is too few.
If there is a new gear set, make the stats useful. Put regen on it, please, especially for dc.
I will ill try to get some guilders on preview and test tomorrow. I hope I find the results better than I see here.
(hint: GWFs usually ended up with fewest deaths, most kills, CW just about 0.5 K/D ratio best case).
I've been indeed extremely surprise by how changes badly affected my pvp CW. Although my cleric is just fine (I'll be able to post feedback in 2-3 matches), my Oppressor build just felt like it has let me down. I'm used to 15-3 (or at most 15-5) on live, when my team is winning, but on preview, I think that while the CC reduction is absolutely required for GWFs and GFs, it's going a bit too far for CWs, altogether limited in pvp. Chill has lost something, and not by a small margin, and this is making the CW a lot less survivable, and the lousy stats of the pvp gear don't help for sure (where's my deflection?).
My suggestions to make CW a bit more than useful for kill farming. Giving shield some love. It's been badly nerfed in pve and i don't mind, but in pvp, some more damage resistance wouldn't hurt, since CWs in pvp do moderate control, good damage, but aren't survivable, while GFs and GWFs do great control, great damage, and are the most survivable.
(hint: GWFs usually ended up with fewest deaths, most kills, CW just about 0.5 K/D ratio best case).
I've been indeed extremely surprise of how changes affected badly my pvp CW. Although my cleric is just fine (I'll be able to post feedback in 2-3 matches), my Oppressor build just felt like it has let me down. 8-18 was a big disappointment. I'm used to 15-3 (or at most 15-5) on live, when my team is winning, but on preview, I think that while the CC reduction is absolutely required for GWFs and GFs, it's going a bit too far for CWs, altogether limited in pvp. Chill has lost something, and not by a small margin, and this is making the CW a lot less survivable, and the lousy stats of the pvp gear don't help for sure (where's my deflection?).
My suggestions to make CW a bit more than useful for kill farming. Giving shield some love. It's been badly nerfed in pve and i don't mind, but in pvp, some more damage resistance wouldn't hurt, since CWs in pvp do moderate control, good damage, but aren't survivable, while GFs and GWFs do great control, great damage, and are the most survivable.
(On the subject of matchmaking, I actually think that a handicap is better than ranking because ranking reduces the number of players eligible to play at any given time, which will make the queues slower. Instead, a handicap which works like reverse tenacity for each win, and decays with each loss, might work fine while keeping the queues full and fast.)
Not all matchmaking systems are created equal, mind. Some games try to match you with people on a best effort basis, so at busy times, you're likely to face people very close to your ranking, but at quiet times, there is more variance.
This is actually more fun than it sounds, as it's quite organic in action.
In any case, I suspect it'd be less injurious than the current tenacity plans. Trying to address the issue of PvE damage in PvP and provide a flattening "welfare stat" at once seems a bit of clumsy fix. I would still prefer to see some form of matchmaking, rather than a handicap system (for purposes of feedback and tweaking).
The current changes are too broad- over-adjusting in an MMO is often more injurious and time-consuming than smaller, more measured tweaks in an instrumented feedback cycle. However, maybe that's a secondary consideration, given that most of the cost of gear in this game is the punitive enchant system. Forcing people to maintain (at least) two sets sounds somewhat kill or cure from a revenue POV. It still feels like the most major effect of the current changes- that and making PvP actually less fun.
matii1509Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Yesterday I had the opportunity to fight against dev. Feedback: Devoted Cleric I have 14.8k DC (ofc PvP set), and what I can say is Healing Depression is painful for DC. With current build on live server I can kill TR and CW, with preview build it's impossible for me, my dmg dramatically went down. Fights are longer but 1vs1 with TR or CW I don't have chance to win, only vs HR (dev was specialized melee, but fighting range) I could win.
Matter a fact, here's an example. There's this game I used to play called RS
Yes I played Runescape too and pvp was fun until they changed it. That is a completely different game and the intensity came from losing an item if you die or item(s) plural, wont happen here.
I've been indeed extremely surprise by how changes badly affected my pvp CW. Although my cleric is just fine (I'll be able to post feedback in 2-3 matches), my Oppressor build just felt like it has let me down. I'm used to 15-3 (or at most 15-5) on live, when my team is winning, but on preview, I think that while the CC reduction is absolutely required for GWFs and GFs, it's going a bit too far for CWs, altogether limited in pvp. Chill has lost something, and not by a small margin, and this is making the CW a lot less survivable, and the lousy stats of the pvp gear don't help for sure (where's my deflection?).
My suggestions to make CW a bit more than useful for kill farming. Giving shield some love. It's been badly nerfed in pve and i don't mind, but in pvp, some more damage resistance wouldn't hurt, since CWs in pvp do moderate control, good damage, but aren't survivable, while GFs and GWFs do great control, great damage, and are the most survivable.
Diogene, see what im really curious about to all those CWs out there is this. I dont even remember the last time I saw a CW go positive in a good premade vs premade match. I would wager MOST of the people going to the PTR to test things are usually the handful of people who pvp alot and are pretty decent, so your testing against the "better" player base, where as on live your testing against ALOT of ppl who dont even like pvp....
So what I want to do is offer this. Come 1v1 my GWF and GF, well record the matchup, do this say 3 times on each toon to see how a CW stacks up, THEN go over to the PTR, do the same 1v1s and see what type of different result there is (if any).
Because my experience on the PTR is that damage IS massively nerfed... BUT! Since healing is nerfed players dont full heal from healing/regen/lifesteal etc.... So while everyone feels SO much weaker, its because the "effective Health Pools" of players went WAY up with all this DR, meaning it takes ALOT more than 1 encounter rotation to kill someone, but players cant survive as long because all the heals were toned down so much.
A perfect example is playing a match on my GWF yesterday versus Facecontrol (GF). I ran to mid, got focused and almost died in a few seconds. Got up and popped unstoppable (heals me 5% and gives be normally 10% Temp HP) I got about HALF the effects of those, and then my NORMAL regen ticks for 2150 only hit for about 1300.... Needless to say ALL of that on the live server REALLY boost me back up to about the 35-40% HP range again where as now I was still stuck in the "red" zone around the 20-25% mark.
I run to the far node to do my "job" as backcapper. Normally in the time it takes me to get there I have had 4-5 regen ticks again putting me over 60% HP, not the case now.... Healing depression stayed on me and hurt all of my regen ticks so instead of being over 60% HP, I was still around 40% by the time I got to the node turn around and facecontrol is coming towards me 1v1.
On the Live server this is an easy matchup for my GWF, especially since he was about 50% HP, one good combo and done.... Not this time. Because of ALL the added DR he had, my best IBS I think did about 8k dmg (instead of 15k) but then watching HIS regen ticks for ~1000 instead of closer to 2k really made a difference.
We both played pretty well and both felt like we were slowly whittling down the others HP when all the sudden a CW drops in. Normally this is no problem and makes it EASIER for my Sent GWF since most CWs just give me more unstoppable meaning his prones are less effective, but again because of the LACK of healing/temp HP and regen I get, this was VERY detrimental to me and I died in about 5-6 seconds. Almost nothing I could do 2v1.
Contrast that to live I think I would have easily been able to drop facecontrol within a few seconds and still regened back to more HP for when the CW came, and then had NO issues with the CW.
All in All, I was pleasantly surprised at how much more balanced things felt than before. Honestly the changes made me FEEL like pvp @ 60 was alot more like pvp 1-59 then I have ever felt before. The ONLY build that makes me nervous on the PTR that I have yet to see is a perma/bilethorn setup.... Other then that, dont be surprised if EVERYONE feels like they are doing ALOT less damage cause ill say this:
An 8k crit on LIVE is not a big deal at all, but that mainly because its very easy to recover that 8k HP. On the PTR an 8k Crit is detrimental because its VERY hard to recover that 8k HP back... So what is considered "good" damage needs to shift down slightly and needs to be seen in light of what it does versus getting on, hitting for WAY less and going "OMG I cant kill anything"...
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've been indeed extremely surprise of how changes affected badly my pvp CW. Although my cleric is just fine (I'll be able to post feedback in 2-3 matches), my Oppressor build just felt like it has let me down. 8-18 was a big disappointment. I'm used to 15-3 (or at most 15-5) on live, when my team is winning, but on preview, I think that while the CC reduction is absolutely required for GWFs and GFs, it's going a bit too far for CWs, altogether limited in pvp. Chill has lost something, and not by a small margin, and this is making the CW a lot less survivable, and the lousy stats of the pvp gear don't help for sure (where's my deflection?).
My suggestions to make CW a bit more than useful for kill farming. Giving shield some love. It's been badly nerfed in pve and i don't mind, but in pvp, some more damage resistance wouldn't hurt, since CWs in pvp do moderate control, good damage, but aren't survivable, while GFs and GWFs do great control, great damage, and are the most survivable.
Now, it's worth mentioning something:
- usually for the preview matches we were facing top PvPers with rank 10s/perfects/full PvP build (which since respeccing is free, everyone should have had)
- some CWs I inspected (even me, compared to stox's CW) were kinda squishy, regardless of Tenacity amount. Below 30K just won't cut it anymore in PvP, when most people sport 35+
- I think stox's CW did better due to full tanky setup 38K HP. At so much HP combined with Tenacity, you just tend to outlast most other people, they get in panic mode for low HP, while you still have 1/2 of yours
I personally tried 2-3 full PvP focused builds, with focus on Con/HP, regen or defense/deflect, with HP from 31K to 33K, my enchants R8-9 as on live. I simply think this is not enough for PvP on the test shard.
But in the end I agree, CW is kinda underwhelming compared other classes, both live&test shard. Or, maybe other classes are overperforming
And most importantly, I wish the CWs would not be forced to stack HP®en yet again, at least not so much of it. The CW should primarily rely on CC, mobility (teleports) and damage reduction (different shields) when it comes to PvP. We're not tanks to stack HP as a primary defense mechanism.
The good part in all of this is that a dev played a CW himself and experienced first hand how CWs work in PvP against good adversaries. I kinda doubt he had a pleasant experience lol. I hope this will help toward balancing the CW class better.
Feedback / Suggestion - Master Predator's (armor) set
Tooltip 4 of Set:
You run 15% faster and have a chance when you deflect to regenerate 1.5% of your Hit Points.
The healing of this 4 set bonus is quite well balanced on live.
With the introduction of Tenacity, it now heals for 0.75% of max HP (at roughly 75%-80% chance when deflecting, as far as I can tell) as you can never deflect an attack in pvp without being under the influence of healing suppression. This has decreased the survivability of Hunter Rangers in a very real, and I think unintended, way.
I suggest one of the following changes be made to the 4 set bonus:
Change the heal to 2.5% of max HP and increase the chance on deflect to 90-100% chance.
Change the heal to 3% and leave the chance on deflect as is.
Something I have not thought of...just please do not leave it as is.
Bug: Disciple Cleric I can't be positive, but it seems that the 5% heal per tick from Hallowed Ground with the Moon Touched talent was ignoring heal depression.
Feedback: Disciple Cleric It seems that the changes have made the main focus of a DC in pvp to be a debuffer rather than a healer. It was far more effective to debuff attackers damage than to try and heal the person being attacked. A few suggestions I would have for the heal depression debuff is to have it removed early from a player when that player kills someone. As after a side fight was over, waiting 10 seconds to be able to heal someone so we could move on to the next fight point was tedious.
In terms of DC playstyle, our pool of effective PvP abilities has become quite limited, but short of a PvP focused Paragon path, I'm not sure this is fixable.
Lastly, if the intent is to make players keep two sets of gear for PvE and PvP, I'd like to see a new "tab" of gear, similar to cosmetic gear, for PvP gear that allows, in some way, for people to share enchants between their PvP and PvE gear without having to constantly pay to unequip and move enchants when they want to PvP.
Lastly, if the intent is to make players keep two sets of gear for PvE and PvP, I'd like to see a new "tab" of gear, similar to cosmetic gear, for PvP gear that allows, in some way, for people to share enchants between their PvP and PvE gear without having to constantly pay to unequip and move enchants when they want to PvP. [/COLOR]
This my biggest worry for this game. I honestly like the direction of PVP, the PTR games ive played ended up being really fun and seemed to be more balanced than on live by a long margin. But my concern is this:
If PVP gear is manditory for PVP, why would a dedicated PVPer run PVE ever again?
This concerns me and while I think a PVP tab of gear much like cosmetics would be really cool, I dont know how you could easily swap enchants from PVE to PVP gear sets... I do like the idea of having SOME type of ability like that to easily swap out gear, maybe its as simple as being able to decide if your chest in your PVP "tab" is the same as your PVE tab so that gear slot wouldnt change. but you would be able to put in different rings,neck etc into the PVP or PVE tab and it would swap those with 1 click.
My other MAJOR suggestion to the DEVS:
To avoid the PVP/PVE gap that is being created. CONSIDER letting the new PVP t1/t2 sets drop off existing dungeons. So running temple of Spider can drop the T2 pvp chest, now players can run PVE, or farm GG to get pieces. This keeps people willing to run dungeons and doesnt limit BOTH their ability to getting whatever set they like, AND it keeps PVPers in the PVE community.
That is the only way I see really making the tenacity gear setup work and not hinder the economy.
Feedback: Disciple Cleric One thing I noticed in the games we played yesterday, was that having people be much more survivable really encouraged people to spread out and fight on more points separately. The problem was that most points were contested more than they were open generating score. I would suggest, in the sake of speeding up games slightly, that contested points generate half the normal score for the team that owns it well it's being contested. This would make games faster, and I think also introduce much more tactical gameplay. As defending a point so it doesn't flip to the other side become far more valuable than the current more: "ninja a point so the other team has to waste time taking it back so my team has more freedom of movement on the other two points."
Lastly I'd like to point out, as a general PvP balance observation, that melee classes have a much greater disadvantage to ranged classes when it comes to defending/taking points. Well a ranged class can fairly easily stay on the point and add to it's capture/defense, melees are often forced out of the capture point to attack high damage range classes standing outside the circle attacking their party. I can't think of a good way to fix this, but a bandaid might be to apply a 10-15 second "capture" buff when a player enters a capture point area. Within the area the buff is refreshed, but once outside of the area the character continues to contribute to that point's capture until the buff expires. This would let melee have a little freedom to dance in and out of the point attacking well still being able to help with capture contribution. Though I would suggest that this buff be for melee based characters only, as forcing ranged out of the circle should still be a viable tactic for capturing points.
This concerns me and while I think a PVP tab of gear much like cosmetics would be really cool, I dont know how you could easily swap enchants from PVE to PVP gear sets... I do like the idea of having SOME type of ability like that to easily swap out gear, maybe its as simple as being able to decide if your chest in your PVP "tab" is the same as your PVE tab so that gear slot wouldnt change. but you would be able to put in different rings,neck etc into the PVP or PVE tab and it would swap those with 1 click.
I was thinking that a possible solution to this would be to remove enchant slots from GEAR and place them onto the gear SLOT. Any item that is placed in a gear slot has it enchantment slot(s) "filled" with the enchant that is in that slot. However, players could still slot specific gear with an enchant, and if done so the slotted enchant "overrules" the enchant in that corresponding "gear" slot.
Comments
If you spec your rogue as a tank, then you bring tanking skills (like ITC), you should expect to do only as much damage as a tank, and have the same survivability. It sounds like your build is working exactly like you should have expected it to.
I had a chance to play my GF/GWF some more with good players this time as well.
OVERALL, I have to say im fairly pleased with the changes. I ran with GG T2 gear on both characters. On live I feel like my GWF deals ALOT of burst damage and is VERY tanky but in a different way. On the LIVE servers, he is very tanky because eventhough my HP drops faster, I make up for it with regen/unstoppable heals.
On the PTR, I felt like my HP didnt drop AS fast due to tenacity, but my regen was SO much less. I felt combat was more dynamic in the sense the fights were not perpetual but slowly draining HP. The "Unkillable" builds are definitely killable 1v1 ESPECIALLY when you throw a 2nd player in the mix, people will drop fast.
I still have alot of concerns with the new stat, but overall im more excited right now than I was before.
My CW and HR friends only complain about these changes. What happened is that tanks are even harder to kill
Squishy classes hate these changes (sounds counter intuitive but its true)
The armor penetration suppression needs to go - it's definitely true that already tanky classes benefit more from armor penetration suppression than focus fire classes do. DC heals need something - DCs are nothing but fodder once you've melted the rest of their team right through their heals.
Yeah I dont have perspective on other classes, what I CAN say is that BOTH my classes feel weaker compared to live. I dont feel like I can facetank 2v1 on my GWF, I dont feel like I can recover from a mistake on my GWF like before. I cant IBS crit someone for 15k and destroy them in 1 rotation. I cant stand on a node and laugh at a CW trying to kill me.
All of that is because of regen/heal nerf.
On my GF the same issues, when you miss an encounter it really sucks, when your regen ticks for 800 and it used to tick for like 1800 it sucks...
So while I think GF/GWF are still strong and I havnt played other classes. I think that goes both ways too, play all the classes and see the changes. On live I cant lose 1v1 on my GWF, probably same is true on PTR... BUt now its MUCH easier to 2v1 me down than before....
mistakes seem to come out more since regen/heal is much less, each move is key and ads up...
So far the pvp has been more fun than live. perfect? no way, more fun? yes.
I think the BIG issue is the CW pvp set sucks.... so not only are you feeling the added DR but your also forced to having to go a bad set route... either that or stay squishy...
If they make decent pvp sets that could change alot.
PvP is fun and entertaining because of the way it currently is. Only minor adjustments are required. The TR is suppose to hurt, the CW's Ice Knife is suppose to hurt! The DC is suppose to heal, the GWF is NOT suppose to be a TANK, the GF is suppose to be the TANK. The PvP system is fragile. Before module 2 everything had a ying and yang. Not saying it no longer does, but the GWF with Iron Vanguard is the number one reason why PvP is no longer balanced, but certainly not the ONLY reason. Increasing damage resistance to all classes only slows down/bores PvP matches. What I'm trying to say is, the reason why PvP is enjoyable (although some adjustments are needed) is because of the INTENSITY! The fast pace gameplay, the destruction to player's health points, the different play styles, character builds, strategies, and classes who pose threat to one another. All of it already works FINE. If you change it, there's a very good chance you will ruin PvP. Trust me when I say this.
Matter a fact, here's an example. There's this game I used to play called RS (I don't know if I'm allowed to say the full name). RS had a combat system like non-other. It was very weird, everything worked in slow ticks, player's characters look turns hitting each other. Very strange, but what made it work was the INTENSITY. As weird as it sounds, players enjoy getting hit or hitting others really hard (doing high damage). Because it causes excitement or panic, all of which is ENTERTAINING! The PvP system in RS was weird, but it worked! The day the company decided to make MAJOR changes to the combat system KILLED the game. Hundreds of players (including myself) made threads warning the company of RS, but they still went through with it. When all they had to do was scrap the idea, and make MINOR adjustments to their perfectly working PvP system. The company of RS didn't listen to the community until it was already too late. After suffering from losing thousands of players (or should I say the player's money for membership), only then did they decide to start working with the community by using polling systems for future content. Which allows the players to vote on what they want, and the company of RS would only accept polls that pass with a 75% 'yes' rate. This happened in 2012, which is NOT long ago, and RS community is still divided to this very day. My point is this...
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." <---- This phrase is EXTREMELY important to remember.
I mean think about, the MAIN things people ask for are new maps, new modes, and a better match making system. Do you understand what that means? That means people enjoy PvP the way it is, but they grow bored of playing the same modes, and dealing with rage quitters. Also, many players only PvE for the things they want or need for PvP. So yes, PvP does require a little bit of work. However the changes/updates should ONLY be made in SMALL doses fueled with feedback.
Also, I'm aware "feedback" is easier said then done. Because it's very hard to get matches on the preview server. And there's only a handful of people who actually type out constructive feedback.
But to get back to the main point of this post, Tenacity is NOT needed. Only minor adjustments.
This isn't feedback, it's literally the exact same thing you've posted 3 times in this thread alone already. We know your opinion already.
I actually agree that tenacity is not needed (although if it works right, it could be nice), but at least when I post my opinions they come with feedback, updated with more recent experience. If you want people to take your opinion seriously you're going to have to do more than just re-post the same spam over and over.
Ohh, I'm not reposing entirely (as in making copies and copies). I repost after making changes or correct spelling. I delete the old post and post the newer version. See page 11 or 12 lol. I left a message saying " (Updated) see page 19." So yeah, I'm not trying to spam or anything. Or if I see another thread that feels the same way as I do, I'll paste it instead of retyping which might change the outcome on how I feel about it. I tried making a thread, but it was moved into the OFFCIAL Tenacity thread. So it was FORCED to be homeless lol.
Also, what does "snip" mean?
The thing I missed, and most DC's have missed, is that damage is reduced, healing is reduced, but mitigation is not reduced! So our mitigation spells are still fully operational. In the games I played, this seemed to mostly make up for the healing nerf.
I still think this change is a mistake. The live games I played today were more fun because the pace was faster. The preview games were long slow slogs. So, not as fun. I also worry sandbag comps will dominate: just tank up and sit on points not allowing the other team any points. Two evenly matched teams might take hours to complete a match.
Also, having to change to different pvp specific gear sets in order to get the benefit of tenacity strikes me as very unwise. One big driver of the auction house gear is pvp players gearing up their newly leveled alts. The value of dungeon gear is going to go down dramatically as pvpers switch to grim coin/glory gear. Also, as I said before, some players will have to radically change their gear while others will not; this is unfair to those classes who have to change.
Next, this new stat adds complexity to the class balance which will surely lead to more special situations where things are unbalanced. Only more bugs will come from more complicated stats.
So, the bottom line is that I still agree with most of the comments above: more maps and better matchmaking is what this game needs, not hack stats like tenacity.
(On the subject of matchmaking, I actually think that a handicap is better than ranking because ranking reduces the number of players eligible to play at any given time, which will make the queues slower. Instead, a handicap which works like reverse tenacity for each win, and decays with each loss, might work fine while keeping the queues full and fast.)
Hmm, very interesting. How many characters do you have btw?
I'm snipping your post (like with a pair of scissors, snip) so that I can address you specifically in reference to what you wrote without taking up the entire block of space.
OOOHHH!! Good idea!
+1, Thank you.
Agreed. But then I haven't bothered to test it on test server because anything learned there is purely for the devs to work on and get data.
But I read some where that tenacity in a dev stand point is like a slider meaning they can tone it up and down easier so they can find the sweet spot.
Dunno if its true or not; I'm not a dev.
Changing existing gear is in my opinion a bad idea and usually tends to anger people (like me). Leave the current sets as they are and introduce new sets that utilize Tenacity.
My inclination is to hate tenacity. Yes, I know some encounters are fast, but I think that's the point sometimes. If I pop lashing from stealth with a perfect vorpal it should hurt and hurt a ton! That's the whole point if the build and the skill.
secondly, while I understand the Idea for longer matches, if both players are skilled and similarly geared, match ups can go on for a real significant period of time, which is fine and needs no changes whatsoever. I guess I don't see the problem tenacity is supposed to fix.
Thirdly I don't want to have to use pvp gear to pvp. I only like the gg set for tr, and I find gg itself long, boring and tedious. The pvp is a blast if you can get in, but the rest if it is no fun. Dkc is easily clearable in 10 minutes and fc is a joke.
as for new pvp sets with new stats, cool idea, but not what game needs from gear. I am looking forward to t3 dungeons and new things to farm and sell, not more bop pvp gear without stats I want for pvp. Farming that would simply be unfun.
That at said, the most obvious things pvp needs is matchmaking (some sort of personal, team, and guild ladder I hope), and more variety. Two maps and one style is too few.
If there is a new gear set, make the stats useful. Put regen on it, please, especially for dc.
I will ill try to get some guilders on preview and test tomorrow. I hope I find the results better than I see here.
Thanks you you for listening.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I've been indeed extremely surprise by how changes badly affected my pvp CW. Although my cleric is just fine (I'll be able to post feedback in 2-3 matches), my Oppressor build just felt like it has let me down. I'm used to 15-3 (or at most 15-5) on live, when my team is winning, but on preview, I think that while the CC reduction is absolutely required for GWFs and GFs, it's going a bit too far for CWs, altogether limited in pvp. Chill has lost something, and not by a small margin, and this is making the CW a lot less survivable, and the lousy stats of the pvp gear don't help for sure (where's my deflection?).
My suggestions to make CW a bit more than useful for kill farming. Giving shield some love. It's been badly nerfed in pve and i don't mind, but in pvp, some more damage resistance wouldn't hurt, since CWs in pvp do moderate control, good damage, but aren't survivable, while GFs and GWFs do great control, great damage, and are the most survivable.
I've been indeed extremely surprise of how changes affected badly my pvp CW. Although my cleric is just fine (I'll be able to post feedback in 2-3 matches), my Oppressor build just felt like it has let me down. 8-18 was a big disappointment. I'm used to 15-3 (or at most 15-5) on live, when my team is winning, but on preview, I think that while the CC reduction is absolutely required for GWFs and GFs, it's going a bit too far for CWs, altogether limited in pvp. Chill has lost something, and not by a small margin, and this is making the CW a lot less survivable, and the lousy stats of the pvp gear don't help for sure (where's my deflection?).
My suggestions to make CW a bit more than useful for kill farming. Giving shield some love. It's been badly nerfed in pve and i don't mind, but in pvp, some more damage resistance wouldn't hurt, since CWs in pvp do moderate control, good damage, but aren't survivable, while GFs and GWFs do great control, great damage, and are the most survivable.
Not all matchmaking systems are created equal, mind. Some games try to match you with people on a best effort basis, so at busy times, you're likely to face people very close to your ranking, but at quiet times, there is more variance.
This is actually more fun than it sounds, as it's quite organic in action.
In any case, I suspect it'd be less injurious than the current tenacity plans. Trying to address the issue of PvE damage in PvP and provide a flattening "welfare stat" at once seems a bit of clumsy fix. I would still prefer to see some form of matchmaking, rather than a handicap system (for purposes of feedback and tweaking).
The current changes are too broad- over-adjusting in an MMO is often more injurious and time-consuming than smaller, more measured tweaks in an instrumented feedback cycle. However, maybe that's a secondary consideration, given that most of the cost of gear in this game is the punitive enchant system. Forcing people to maintain (at least) two sets sounds somewhat kill or cure from a revenue POV. It still feels like the most major effect of the current changes- that and making PvP actually less fun.
Feedback: Devoted Cleric
I have 14.8k DC (ofc PvP set), and what I can say is Healing Depression is painful for DC. With current build on live server I can kill TR and CW, with preview build it's impossible for me, my dmg dramatically went down. Fights are longer but 1vs1 with TR or CW I don't have chance to win, only vs HR (dev was specialized melee, but fighting range) I could win.
Yes I played Runescape too and pvp was fun until they changed it. That is a completely different game and the intensity came from losing an item if you die or item(s) plural, wont happen here.
Diogene, see what im really curious about to all those CWs out there is this. I dont even remember the last time I saw a CW go positive in a good premade vs premade match. I would wager MOST of the people going to the PTR to test things are usually the handful of people who pvp alot and are pretty decent, so your testing against the "better" player base, where as on live your testing against ALOT of ppl who dont even like pvp....
So what I want to do is offer this. Come 1v1 my GWF and GF, well record the matchup, do this say 3 times on each toon to see how a CW stacks up, THEN go over to the PTR, do the same 1v1s and see what type of different result there is (if any).
Because my experience on the PTR is that damage IS massively nerfed... BUT! Since healing is nerfed players dont full heal from healing/regen/lifesteal etc.... So while everyone feels SO much weaker, its because the "effective Health Pools" of players went WAY up with all this DR, meaning it takes ALOT more than 1 encounter rotation to kill someone, but players cant survive as long because all the heals were toned down so much.
A perfect example is playing a match on my GWF yesterday versus Facecontrol (GF). I ran to mid, got focused and almost died in a few seconds. Got up and popped unstoppable (heals me 5% and gives be normally 10% Temp HP) I got about HALF the effects of those, and then my NORMAL regen ticks for 2150 only hit for about 1300.... Needless to say ALL of that on the live server REALLY boost me back up to about the 35-40% HP range again where as now I was still stuck in the "red" zone around the 20-25% mark.
I run to the far node to do my "job" as backcapper. Normally in the time it takes me to get there I have had 4-5 regen ticks again putting me over 60% HP, not the case now.... Healing depression stayed on me and hurt all of my regen ticks so instead of being over 60% HP, I was still around 40% by the time I got to the node turn around and facecontrol is coming towards me 1v1.
On the Live server this is an easy matchup for my GWF, especially since he was about 50% HP, one good combo and done.... Not this time. Because of ALL the added DR he had, my best IBS I think did about 8k dmg (instead of 15k) but then watching HIS regen ticks for ~1000 instead of closer to 2k really made a difference.
We both played pretty well and both felt like we were slowly whittling down the others HP when all the sudden a CW drops in. Normally this is no problem and makes it EASIER for my Sent GWF since most CWs just give me more unstoppable meaning his prones are less effective, but again because of the LACK of healing/temp HP and regen I get, this was VERY detrimental to me and I died in about 5-6 seconds. Almost nothing I could do 2v1.
Contrast that to live I think I would have easily been able to drop facecontrol within a few seconds and still regened back to more HP for when the CW came, and then had NO issues with the CW.
All in All, I was pleasantly surprised at how much more balanced things felt than before. Honestly the changes made me FEEL like pvp @ 60 was alot more like pvp 1-59 then I have ever felt before. The ONLY build that makes me nervous on the PTR that I have yet to see is a perma/bilethorn setup.... Other then that, dont be surprised if EVERYONE feels like they are doing ALOT less damage cause ill say this:
An 8k crit on LIVE is not a big deal at all, but that mainly because its very easy to recover that 8k HP. On the PTR an 8k Crit is detrimental because its VERY hard to recover that 8k HP back... So what is considered "good" damage needs to shift down slightly and needs to be seen in light of what it does versus getting on, hitting for WAY less and going "OMG I cant kill anything"...
Now, it's worth mentioning something:
- usually for the preview matches we were facing top PvPers with rank 10s/perfects/full PvP build (which since respeccing is free, everyone should have had)
- some CWs I inspected (even me, compared to stox's CW) were kinda squishy, regardless of Tenacity amount. Below 30K just won't cut it anymore in PvP, when most people sport 35+
- I think stox's CW did better due to full tanky setup 38K HP. At so much HP combined with Tenacity, you just tend to outlast most other people, they get in panic mode for low HP, while you still have 1/2 of yours
I personally tried 2-3 full PvP focused builds, with focus on Con/HP, regen or defense/deflect, with HP from 31K to 33K, my enchants R8-9 as on live. I simply think this is not enough for PvP on the test shard.
But in the end I agree, CW is kinda underwhelming compared other classes, both live&test shard. Or, maybe other classes are overperforming
And most importantly, I wish the CWs would not be forced to stack HP®en yet again, at least not so much of it. The CW should primarily rely on CC, mobility (teleports) and damage reduction (different shields) when it comes to PvP. We're not tanks to stack HP as a primary defense mechanism.
The good part in all of this is that a dev played a CW himself and experienced first hand how CWs work in PvP against good adversaries. I kinda doubt he had a pleasant experience lol. I hope this will help toward balancing the CW class better.
Tooltip 4 of Set:
You run 15% faster and have a chance when you deflect to regenerate 1.5% of your Hit Points.
The healing of this 4 set bonus is quite well balanced on live.
With the introduction of Tenacity, it now heals for 0.75% of max HP (at roughly 75%-80% chance when deflecting, as far as I can tell) as you can never deflect an attack in pvp without being under the influence of healing suppression. This has decreased the survivability of Hunter Rangers in a very real, and I think unintended, way.
I suggest one of the following changes be made to the 4 set bonus:
I can't be positive, but it seems that the 5% heal per tick from Hallowed Ground with the Moon Touched talent was ignoring heal depression.
Feedback: Disciple Cleric
It seems that the changes have made the main focus of a DC in pvp to be a debuffer rather than a healer. It was far more effective to debuff attackers damage than to try and heal the person being attacked. A few suggestions I would have for the heal depression debuff is to have it removed early from a player when that player kills someone. As after a side fight was over, waiting 10 seconds to be able to heal someone so we could move on to the next fight point was tedious.
In terms of DC playstyle, our pool of effective PvP abilities has become quite limited, but short of a PvP focused Paragon path, I'm not sure this is fixable.
Lastly, if the intent is to make players keep two sets of gear for PvE and PvP, I'd like to see a new "tab" of gear, similar to cosmetic gear, for PvP gear that allows, in some way, for people to share enchants between their PvP and PvE gear without having to constantly pay to unequip and move enchants when they want to PvP.
This my biggest worry for this game. I honestly like the direction of PVP, the PTR games ive played ended up being really fun and seemed to be more balanced than on live by a long margin. But my concern is this:
If PVP gear is manditory for PVP, why would a dedicated PVPer run PVE ever again?
This concerns me and while I think a PVP tab of gear much like cosmetics would be really cool, I dont know how you could easily swap enchants from PVE to PVP gear sets... I do like the idea of having SOME type of ability like that to easily swap out gear, maybe its as simple as being able to decide if your chest in your PVP "tab" is the same as your PVE tab so that gear slot wouldnt change. but you would be able to put in different rings,neck etc into the PVP or PVE tab and it would swap those with 1 click.
My other MAJOR suggestion to the DEVS:
To avoid the PVP/PVE gap that is being created. CONSIDER letting the new PVP t1/t2 sets drop off existing dungeons. So running temple of Spider can drop the T2 pvp chest, now players can run PVE, or farm GG to get pieces. This keeps people willing to run dungeons and doesnt limit BOTH their ability to getting whatever set they like, AND it keeps PVPers in the PVE community.
That is the only way I see really making the tenacity gear setup work and not hinder the economy.
One thing I noticed in the games we played yesterday, was that having people be much more survivable really encouraged people to spread out and fight on more points separately. The problem was that most points were contested more than they were open generating score. I would suggest, in the sake of speeding up games slightly, that contested points generate half the normal score for the team that owns it well it's being contested. This would make games faster, and I think also introduce much more tactical gameplay. As defending a point so it doesn't flip to the other side become far more valuable than the current more: "ninja a point so the other team has to waste time taking it back so my team has more freedom of movement on the other two points."
Lastly I'd like to point out, as a general PvP balance observation, that melee classes have a much greater disadvantage to ranged classes when it comes to defending/taking points. Well a ranged class can fairly easily stay on the point and add to it's capture/defense, melees are often forced out of the capture point to attack high damage range classes standing outside the circle attacking their party. I can't think of a good way to fix this, but a bandaid might be to apply a 10-15 second "capture" buff when a player enters a capture point area. Within the area the buff is refreshed, but once outside of the area the character continues to contribute to that point's capture until the buff expires. This would let melee have a little freedom to dance in and out of the point attacking well still being able to help with capture contribution. Though I would suggest that this buff be for melee based characters only, as forcing ranged out of the circle should still be a viable tactic for capturing points.
I was thinking that a possible solution to this would be to remove enchant slots from GEAR and place them onto the gear SLOT. Any item that is placed in a gear slot has it enchantment slot(s) "filled" with the enchant that is in that slot. However, players could still slot specific gear with an enchant, and if done so the slotted enchant "overrules" the enchant in that corresponding "gear" slot.