In conclusion they really need to get the damage in the offhands pretty much higher
The offhand and the mainhand weapons are both considered when calculating damage.
If you increase the damage of the offhand it would increase the damage of both Ranged and Melee Stances.
Powers would have to be adjusted directly.
Also my experience with a hybrid is the opposite. I have consistently competed with Archer Rangers with far superior gear. The burst potential is there in melee but it is not enough considering how squishy they are IMO. They need to be a bit more survivable and/or get a bit more damage for the amount of risk involved in fighting in melee.
The offhand and the mainhand weapons are both considered when calculating damage.
In short, if you increase the damage of the offhand it would increase the damage of both Ranged and Melee Stance.
Powers would have be adjusted directly.
Also my experience with a hybrid is the opposite. I have consistently competed with Archer Rangers with far superior gear. The burst potential is there in melee but it is not enough considering how squishy they are IMO. They need to be a bit more survivable and/or get a bit more damage for the amount of risk involved in fighting in melee.
That's really the whole point though. HR's aren't meant to spend a lot of time in melee conceptually. As shown in the powers preview video they are meant for dart in and out tactics primarily. People in the community are trying to theory craft ways to make them full melee, and while there is nothing wrong with this of course, It will most likely never be the optimal way to play this class.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
That would be fine, but the risk vs reward needs to be looked into.
If the survivability doesn't go up then the damage should be increased.
If the damage doesn't increased the damage should be increased.
If they want to make the melee heavy rangers really happy they'll do both.
However, dart in and dart out doesn't mean use a bow. It means burst. Dart in, do a lot of damage, dart out.
Which is why people have given the suggestions to re-balance melee a bit.
The offhand and the mainhand weapons are both considered when calculating damage.
In short, if you increase the damage of the offhand it would increase the damage of both Ranged and Melee Stance.
Powers would have be adjusted directly.
Also my experience with a hybrid is the opposite. I have consistently competed with Archer Rangers with far superior gear. The burst potential is there in melee but it is not enough considering how squishy they are IMO. They need to be a bit more survivable and/or get a bit more damage for the amount of risk involved in fighting in melee.
My hybrid HR performance quite outstanding in PVP against most melee and range classes (especially archer HR and TR). except GWF sentinel build.
Not trying to praise my self, but it's truth. The fact how powerful Hybrid can be in PVE and PVP are cant be denied, since using more than just 3 encounters, my rotation combos included 6 encounters per rotation which can deal more than 35k dmg on single target and only took few seconds to complete the rotation. Making my HR doesnt lack range nor melee against other classes, I respected many times already. Finally I'm fully satisfied with my latest hybrid HR build.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
Indeed.
I have had horrible luck in dungeons and am still running around in blue gear yet I have consistently had higher damage output than any ranger who tries to stick to ranged or melee powers only. Ignoring the other stance, in my opinion, simply holds them back.
However the weaker end is definitely melee and I am not convinced it is designed to be. Rogues seem tanky compared to the HR and that's saying something. I have found being both melee and ranged worth the risks as it does give a noticeable increase in damage to utilize 6 encounters and melee's burst potential but it still can do with some tweaking in my opinion.
I have had horrible luck in dungeons and am still running around in blue gear yet I have consistently had higher damage output than any ranger who tries to stick to ranged or melee powers only. Ignoring the other stance, in my opinion, simply holds them back.
However the weaker end is definitely melee and I am not convinced it is designed to be. Rogues seem tanky compared to the HR and that's saying something. I have found being both melee and ranged worth the risks as it does give a noticeable increase in damage to utilize 6 encounters and melee's burst potential but it still can do with some tweaking in my opinion.
In my opinion, melee HR is strong, it just they didnt do much DPS in most situation like PVE dungeon because they don't have much output in AOE dps. But I'm absolute sure about their dmg are high when single focus on mob. To be more precisely, their dmg are quite significantly good in PVP, but what make they are weak at some particular point, it's they lack of range atk. If they finish melee rotation, they will be out of skills and looks like a TR with green dagger running around. As for Range HR, they are good and powerful in PVE aswell in PVP. They can kill any range classes or melee classes from far so easily but not much outstanding when against melee classes especially TR that can chase them so easily. Being close to enemy are kind of make them more vulnerable. So in a conclusion, Hybrid build fixing their lacking on both builds. Making them more survival and less vulnerable but have more high dmg output than a normal HR build. With this build, it make me more appreciate to what developer did, and play HR the way it should be in the first place.
The offhand and the mainhand weapons are both considered when calculating damage.
If you increase the damage of the offhand it would increase the damage of both Ranged and Melee Stances.
Powers would have to be adjusted directly.
Also my experience with a hybrid is the opposite. I have consistently competed with Archer Rangers with far superior gear. The burst potential is there in melee but it is not enough considering how squishy they are IMO. They need to be a bit more survivable and/or get a bit more damage for the amount of risk involved in fighting in melee.
Ur saying that without even having tested it right?
go ahead hit some dummys with melee atwills fox shift etc, remove ur bow and go hit thm again, ull see damage is practically the same without those 600-800 dmg the bow gives. and 600-800 damage is a lot of damage missing for those small rng variations u will see.
then notice the master of combat procs, theyre giving out an extra 400-500 damage. then slot ur bow again and see how its proccing for the same amount of damage when it should be proccing for 1k-1.3k damage if it was considering the bows damage, as the feat does weapon damage.
Id even say melee isnt even taking into account power, as im hiting for barely the same with 3.5k than with 6.5k, but that is harder to point out and probably too time consumingto test for me coz of all the rng involved, whish we had some weapon around with min=max damage for testing purposes.
I can't understand why someone would not use the other stance. I call myself a melee HR simply because that's what I build for and favor when the situation can go for either stance. I've seen HRs just do archery, but none that just did melee. Granted I'm only lvl 45, I just may not have seen enough yet.
Having 6 encounters is great, not just for damage either, I use my archery encounters mostly for utility.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Ur saying that without even having tested it right?
Try testing with a more stable and predictable skill to test: Rapid Shot/Rapid Strike.
There is ~150 point difference on average between having one weapon or two weapons and only 30 of that, at most, is from power and/or armor pen. EDIT - The numbers are for my character specifically but the premise is the same.
I didn't say the damage was additive. Only that both your main and off hand damage is considered equally in the calculation as the damage loss between the two is the same when you take off partnered weapon.
More than likely the damage is averaged in some way.
If you were correct weapon enchantments would not effect the blades but they do.
So I respecced my build to incorporate Aimed Strike and the skill seems wonky to me. Is it supposed to do no damage on the initial hit and just trigger a bleed?
Try testing with a more stable and predictable skill to test: Rapid Shot/Rapid Strike.
There is ~150 point difference on average between having one weapon or two weapons and only 30 of that, at most, is from power and/or armor pen.
EDIT - The numbers are for my character specifically but the premise is the same.
I didn't say the damage was additive. Only that both your main and off hand damage is considered equally in the calculation as the damage loss between the two is the same when you take off partnered weapon.
More than likely the damage is averaged in some way.
If you were correct weapon enchantments would not effect the blades but they do.
and then master of combat procs coincidentaly for ur offhands weapon damage range? if it was averaged it would be at least 100-150 points higher than the offhands weapon range... which it isnt.
i think ur just seeing rng fluctuiations (150 average damage for a 700-800 weapon damage loss sounds realistic to you?) go slot some cheap lo lvl white gear and compare damage then.
and why wouldnt the weapon enchantment not work on ur blades if the bow is merely a stat stick minus the damage, u get the other stats allright.
its pretty clear melee damage is under performing in some way and for me its something messed up with weapon damage calculations.
So I respecced my build to incorporate Aimed Strike and the skill seems wonky to me. Is it supposed to do no damage on the initial hit and just trigger a bleed?
No it hits harder first hit, then the bleeds are slightly less.
Dunno then; I see it when I do it. You don't see it hit hard first then less after at all?
Like first hit is say 1.9k and every other one is like 1.7k?
I'll have to mess with it some more later to see what's really going on, might just be the tooltip is displaying the wrong damage for it so what I think is the initial bleed tick is actually the first hit. Thanks for the help.
Try testing with a more stable and predictable skill to test: Rapid Shot/Rapid Strike.
ok, rapid does seem to have some notable damage difference from having a mainhand slotted or not.
Maybe its skill related so some skills/feats are broken whileothers arent. go ahead and try split strike/fox shift/master of combat procs and see if u can replicate my results with those.
I suppose it's time to add my 2 cents, starting with skills.
Electric shot
Terrible to the point of being unusable.
Reason: The delay between hits is too long.
PS: Anyone know the target cap on it?
edit: cap = 5
Split the Sky
Great for pve, not so much for pvp.
Reason (pvp): This skill has a per-target cooldown. If you are hit several times in quick succession, the lightning will not damage the target for every hit you take.
Throw Caution
Again, great in pve.
I would like to know if this reduces one's DEFENSE or MITIGATION, and by how much.
Knowing how much it increases damage would also be helpful.
Boar Charge
The boar group of skills is great overall. The only issue that I have with the (melee) skill is that the user becomes frozen for a brief time after using it. This roughly halves the number of hits possible versus the newly prone target. Removing or reducing this delay would be a massive improvement, and would put it back on my skill bar in some pvp matches.
Marauder's Escape
Seems like I can be hit / cc'd during the skill animation, even if said animation shows my current location as being very far away from the range of what's hitting me. Example - can be knocked prone with takedown during the animation, even though it shows me at 60+ feet away from the gwf using takedown.
Seismic Shot
target limit of 5 seems quite low. Increasing this target limit would certainly help rangers deal more damage in pvp.
Seeker (feat) and Retreat Technique (feat)
I realize that these feats are tier 1, but their effect is essentially unnoticeable.
I'm quite confident that double the effect of both of these feats would still leave their effects essentially unnoticeable.
Hawk Style, Grace of the Fox, Thickness of the Stag, Blessing of the Oak, Endurance of the Boar, and Master of Nature
The bonuses from these feats do not make nature based skills attractive enough to consider the nature tree a seriously viable option.
Well, Thickness of the Stag is quite a nice bonus to be fair, but the rest are quite bad.
Sniper's Aim (feat)
This is extremely overpowered, imo. +20% damage at max range is a bit absurd, and is a major contributing factor to aimed shot being so beastly.
Other:
I like how Bloodthirsty (feat) and Agile Hunter (feat) are tier 2, allowing them to be used in a hybrid melee/ranged build.
I dislike that when changing zones, current stance is reset to ranged.
I can't understand why someone would not use the other stance. I call myself a melee HR simply because that's what I build for and favor when the situation can go for either stance. I've seen HRs just do archery, but none that just did melee. Granted I'm only lvl 45, I just may not have seen enough yet.
Having 6 encounters is great, not just for damage either, I use my archery encounters mostly for utility.
if you love melee HR. I really wish you try my own build. It's hybrid, and it's very good.
My build utilizing dmg buffs from feats to increase dmg output from hybrid stance as soon as you launch the combos.
edit : what i mean with hybrid stance, i mean both stances of bow and dual sword.
Oak Skin: this needs a boost. Ideally to 300-400 points healed per tic. This will not replace a DC by any stretch but it will be a more noticeable heal making the power more significant.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Oak Skin: this needs a boost. Ideally to 300-400 points healed per tic. This will not replace a DC by any stretch but it will be a more noticeable heal making the power more significant.
I agree....As it stands right now, Oak Skin is completely useless. I still use it obviously, as Binding Arrow is one of my encounters I always use.
It should scale with level or something. Healing for 80, and 170a tick for a fiew seconds is laughable...
Also, Oak Skin is completely broken anyway. The heals are deflected by yourself, and your party members...
Oak Skin: this needs a boost. Ideally to 300-400 points healed per tic. This will not replace a DC by any stretch but it will be a more noticeable heal making the power more significant.
They should act as heal spell instead of regeneration. But I haven't try with high regeneration stat, how do it proc together?
Ahm it is a heal spell, its just healing over time not a single large heal (and I'm happy with HoT, it just needs to be larger). It stacks fine with regen, like all healing effects.
On another note there is a wierd bug with Grace of the Fox feat. The tooltip is not adjusted, and when you first activate the power it still shows the same as the tooltip would lead you to expect, but then a moment later it clicks down the 5s the feat grants. So I have 16.9s on tooltip, so on activation I see 17s a moment (didn't try to time it but its there) later it drops to 12s. So if you are not watching the counter it looks like the feat doesn't work.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
0
millertime197933Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 124Bounty Hunter
edited January 2014
I think aspect of the lone wolf should have a minimum dmg mitigation buff even if you are surrounded, say 5%. It kinda sucks that if you are in a crowd, which is often the case if you are using melee, that it basically gives you nothing. I really want to have a melee focused ranger, who uses his bow occasionally. However, the class is so squishy that it is hard to want to do that. Making the passive provide 5% as a minimum would go a long way in making the class a bit more survivable while in the fray. Also adding an area CC would be great. Call it Entangle and have it slow enemy melee attacks, or stun them. Rogues can stay in the fight using stealth, but also have smoke bomb. I think that works great for that class. As it is right now, it is hard to justify wading in and going melee instead of sitting back and using a bow, then running circles when you get agro. It "should" be you use your bow, and when you get agro, you switch to melee and finish stuff off.
I also think some adjustment to attack animations is needed for an HR. The area at will melee attack is hard to "aim". Sure you get used to it, but the animation looks like it should be hitting things, but it doesnt. It almost seems to miss stuff standing right in front of you and slightly to the side, and hits things that are further back and super wide arc.
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millertime197933Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 124Bounty Hunter
edited January 2014
Also melee should always do substantially more dmg than ranged instead of something that "could" arguable do more. Ranged should equal safe good dmg, Melee should equal less safe, but definitely more dmg. Arrow in my leg vs. having a sword hack off a chunk and all.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
I definitely agree with Aspect of the Lone Wolf.
I don't have time now but I will be updating the OP with the additional feedback brought up in the thread.
Thank you to everybody who has responded.
I'll be putting everything I can up to the front but please keep it coming.
heroic feat that adds +3 deflect %
combat feat that in melee stance adds +10% deflect
Boar skin adds +10% DR
Lone wolf adds (if 1v1) 20%, this does scale up and down, depending on numbers, but we can go base 1v1 for this.
So.. you're talking if you stat up to 23% deflect, 25% DR, 1 buff, 1 class feat and melee stance, you're at 36% deflect, 45% DR.
That's just with my 10.7k GS. It can go higher. My HR is tanky as heck, boar skin/boar rush gives me a prone too. So I can tear down people while still keeping high health. It's getting high enough into combat to get the deflect% increase and not being caught outside of melee stance that is important.
Comments
The offhand and the mainhand weapons are both considered when calculating damage.
If you increase the damage of the offhand it would increase the damage of both Ranged and Melee Stances.
Powers would have to be adjusted directly.
Also my experience with a hybrid is the opposite. I have consistently competed with Archer Rangers with far superior gear. The burst potential is there in melee but it is not enough considering how squishy they are IMO. They need to be a bit more survivable and/or get a bit more damage for the amount of risk involved in fighting in melee.
That's really the whole point though. HR's aren't meant to spend a lot of time in melee conceptually. As shown in the powers preview video they are meant for dart in and out tactics primarily. People in the community are trying to theory craft ways to make them full melee, and while there is nothing wrong with this of course, It will most likely never be the optimal way to play this class.
If the survivability doesn't go up then the damage should be increased.
If the damage doesn't increased the damage should be increased.
If they want to make the melee heavy rangers really happy they'll do both.
However, dart in and dart out doesn't mean use a bow. It means burst. Dart in, do a lot of damage, dart out.
Which is why people have given the suggestions to re-balance melee a bit.
My hybrid HR performance quite outstanding in PVP against most melee and range classes (especially archer HR and TR). except GWF sentinel build.
Not trying to praise my self, but it's truth. The fact how powerful Hybrid can be in PVE and PVP are cant be denied, since using more than just 3 encounters, my rotation combos included 6 encounters per rotation which can deal more than 35k dmg on single target and only took few seconds to complete the rotation. Making my HR doesnt lack range nor melee against other classes, I respected many times already. Finally I'm fully satisfied with my latest hybrid HR build.
I have had horrible luck in dungeons and am still running around in blue gear yet I have consistently had higher damage output than any ranger who tries to stick to ranged or melee powers only. Ignoring the other stance, in my opinion, simply holds them back.
However the weaker end is definitely melee and I am not convinced it is designed to be. Rogues seem tanky compared to the HR and that's saying something. I have found being both melee and ranged worth the risks as it does give a noticeable increase in damage to utilize 6 encounters and melee's burst potential but it still can do with some tweaking in my opinion.
In my opinion, melee HR is strong, it just they didnt do much DPS in most situation like PVE dungeon because they don't have much output in AOE dps. But I'm absolute sure about their dmg are high when single focus on mob. To be more precisely, their dmg are quite significantly good in PVP, but what make they are weak at some particular point, it's they lack of range atk. If they finish melee rotation, they will be out of skills and looks like a TR with green dagger running around. As for Range HR, they are good and powerful in PVE aswell in PVP. They can kill any range classes or melee classes from far so easily but not much outstanding when against melee classes especially TR that can chase them so easily. Being close to enemy are kind of make them more vulnerable. So in a conclusion, Hybrid build fixing their lacking on both builds. Making them more survival and less vulnerable but have more high dmg output than a normal HR build. With this build, it make me more appreciate to what developer did, and play HR the way it should be in the first place.
Ur saying that without even having tested it right?
go ahead hit some dummys with melee atwills fox shift etc, remove ur bow and go hit thm again, ull see damage is practically the same without those 600-800 dmg the bow gives. and 600-800 damage is a lot of damage missing for those small rng variations u will see.
then notice the master of combat procs, theyre giving out an extra 400-500 damage. then slot ur bow again and see how its proccing for the same amount of damage when it should be proccing for 1k-1.3k damage if it was considering the bows damage, as the feat does weapon damage.
Id even say melee isnt even taking into account power, as im hiting for barely the same with 3.5k than with 6.5k, but that is harder to point out and probably too time consumingto test for me coz of all the rng involved, whish we had some weapon around with min=max damage for testing purposes.
Having 6 encounters is great, not just for damage either, I use my archery encounters mostly for utility.
Try testing with a more stable and predictable skill to test: Rapid Shot/Rapid Strike.
There is ~150 point difference on average between having one weapon or two weapons and only 30 of that, at most, is from power and/or armor pen.
EDIT - The numbers are for my character specifically but the premise is the same.
I didn't say the damage was additive. Only that both your main and off hand damage is considered equally in the calculation as the damage loss between the two is the same when you take off partnered weapon.
More than likely the damage is averaged in some way.
If you were correct weapon enchantments would not effect the blades but they do.
and then master of combat procs coincidentaly for ur offhands weapon damage range? if it was averaged it would be at least 100-150 points higher than the offhands weapon range... which it isnt.
i think ur just seeing rng fluctuiations (150 average damage for a 700-800 weapon damage loss sounds realistic to you?) go slot some cheap lo lvl white gear and compare damage then.
and why wouldnt the weapon enchantment not work on ur blades if the bow is merely a stat stick minus the damage, u get the other stats allright.
its pretty clear melee damage is under performing in some way and for me its something messed up with weapon damage calculations.
No it hits harder first hit, then the bleeds are slightly less.
Mine does no damage on the first hit for some strange reason. Tested it out on training dummies, various mobs and in pvp.
Like first hit is say 1.9k and every other one is like 1.7k?
I'll have to mess with it some more later to see what's really going on, might just be the tooltip is displaying the wrong damage for it so what I think is the initial bleed tick is actually the first hit. Thanks for the help.
ok, rapid does seem to have some notable damage difference from having a mainhand slotted or not.
Maybe its skill related so some skills/feats are broken whileothers arent. go ahead and try split strike/fox shift/master of combat procs and see if u can replicate my results with those.
Electric shot
Terrible to the point of being unusable.
Reason: The delay between hits is too long.
PS: Anyone know the target cap on it?
edit: cap = 5
Split the Sky
Great for pve, not so much for pvp.
Reason (pvp): This skill has a per-target cooldown. If you are hit several times in quick succession, the lightning will not damage the target for every hit you take.
Throw Caution
Again, great in pve.
I would like to know if this reduces one's DEFENSE or MITIGATION, and by how much.
Knowing how much it increases damage would also be helpful.
Boar Charge
The boar group of skills is great overall. The only issue that I have with the (melee) skill is that the user becomes frozen for a brief time after using it. This roughly halves the number of hits possible versus the newly prone target. Removing or reducing this delay would be a massive improvement, and would put it back on my skill bar in some pvp matches.
Marauder's Escape
Seems like I can be hit / cc'd during the skill animation, even if said animation shows my current location as being very far away from the range of what's hitting me. Example - can be knocked prone with takedown during the animation, even though it shows me at 60+ feet away from the gwf using takedown.
Seismic Shot
target limit of 5 seems quite low. Increasing this target limit would certainly help rangers deal more damage in pvp.
Seeker (feat) and Retreat Technique (feat)
I realize that these feats are tier 1, but their effect is essentially unnoticeable.
I'm quite confident that double the effect of both of these feats would still leave their effects essentially unnoticeable.
Hawk Style, Grace of the Fox, Thickness of the Stag, Blessing of the Oak, Endurance of the Boar, and Master of Nature
The bonuses from these feats do not make nature based skills attractive enough to consider the nature tree a seriously viable option.
Well, Thickness of the Stag is quite a nice bonus to be fair, but the rest are quite bad.
Sniper's Aim (feat)
This is extremely overpowered, imo. +20% damage at max range is a bit absurd, and is a major contributing factor to aimed shot being so beastly.
Other:
I like how Bloodthirsty (feat) and Agile Hunter (feat) are tier 2, allowing them to be used in a hybrid melee/ranged build.
I dislike that when changing zones, current stance is reset to ranged.
if you love melee HR. I really wish you try my own build. It's hybrid, and it's very good.
My build utilizing dmg buffs from feats to increase dmg output from hybrid stance as soon as you launch the combos.
edit : what i mean with hybrid stance, i mean both stances of bow and dual sword.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?579211-HR-HYBRID-BUILD-Dont-check-this-this-is-for-my-friend-can-ignore
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I agree....As it stands right now, Oak Skin is completely useless. I still use it obviously, as Binding Arrow is one of my encounters I always use.
It should scale with level or something. Healing for 80, and 170a tick for a fiew seconds is laughable...
Also, Oak Skin is completely broken anyway. The heals are deflected by yourself, and your party members...
They should act as heal spell instead of regeneration. But I haven't try with high regeneration stat, how do it proc together?
On another note there is a wierd bug with Grace of the Fox feat. The tooltip is not adjusted, and when you first activate the power it still shows the same as the tooltip would lead you to expect, but then a moment later it clicks down the 5s the feat grants. So I have 16.9s on tooltip, so on activation I see 17s a moment (didn't try to time it but its there) later it drops to 12s. So if you are not watching the counter it looks like the feat doesn't work.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I also think some adjustment to attack animations is needed for an HR. The area at will melee attack is hard to "aim". Sure you get used to it, but the animation looks like it should be hitting things, but it doesnt. It almost seems to miss stuff standing right in front of you and slightly to the side, and hits things that are further back and super wide arc.
I don't have time now but I will be updating the OP with the additional feedback brought up in the thread.
Thank you to everybody who has responded.
I'll be putting everything I can up to the front but please keep it coming.
heroic feat that adds +3 deflect %
combat feat that in melee stance adds +10% deflect
Boar skin adds +10% DR
Lone wolf adds (if 1v1) 20%, this does scale up and down, depending on numbers, but we can go base 1v1 for this.
So.. you're talking if you stat up to 23% deflect, 25% DR, 1 buff, 1 class feat and melee stance, you're at 36% deflect, 45% DR.
That's just with my 10.7k GS.