lol of course you can criticize. My thoughts when I wrote were that we were all looking forward to a new paragon path that would be different then the current one but still good. When I was testing the path, I kept going back to the fact that I had lost ItC but the powers I gained didn't come close to equaling that loss. Now since then they have added some more utility to the encounter. It sounds like some rogues are starting to make some build viable. However for me I will prefer the utility of ItC. Plus the new paragon seems kinda slow to play, not as fun as the one we have. Looking forward to seeing the builds though. Anything new
With this logic nothing is gonna be as good as the first paragon Path TR have
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With this logic nothing is gonna be as good as the first paragon Path TR have
This is exactly the point. It's not the new path which is weak. Whisperknife instead (from what i've seen) is pretty cool and fun. Especially this reworked encounter.
But majority will still stay Master Infiltrator, just 'cos ItC and Shocking Execution are too strong. Because it works even with brainless playstyles (read below).
No rogue in his mind would drop it for whatever Whisperknife can give. Personally, I would call it OP, especially ItC.
Only obvious solution, in my opinion, is to give SE and ItC minor nerfs, so it could compete SOMEHOW with Whisperknife powers.
For example:
1) Make SE dodgeable, but instead significantly increase animation speed. Make it possible, but hard to dodge. So there would be at least some counter-f**ing-play. Now it just acts like an "I win" button.
2) reduce duration of ItC slightly. Like 2 sec for non-stealthed use, down from 3; and somewhat 3.5 seconds for stealthed use, down from 5. It's more than enough to break CC and absorb burst.
Now some rogues just use it randomly, without any second thought; without foes, putting any pressure on them - just for fun, you know, because 5 seconds is effin strong. This change would inspire smarter usage of this ability instead and, possibly, even develop some tactical thinking!
The thing you they should not have to nerf ITC to make this path viable its viable regardless what any one says it needs its share of bug fixes and buffs its ment to do what its dose give them other options.
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Are you saying this path is equal in power to Master Infiltrator or an equal alternative? Because if not, I wouldn't consider it viable.
Are you saying this path is equal in power to Master Infiltrator or an equal alternative? Because if not, I wouldn't consider it viable.
If you holding on to ITC as your crutch no this build is not for you if you have a open mind and are willing to experiment yes the build is viable for you. It all depends on you playstyle and if you good enough with out every ones crutch skill ITC
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I've only successfully used ITC in PvP, a 5s dodge is worth very little to me. Now I can replace a 5s dodge with "escape CC and do damage", which suits me just fine.
I guess I'm just a terrible player and all those other things, never mind that I got my DPS up with Whisperknife and I'm no longer stuck with Duelist's to get DPS, and thus get locked into its attack cycle and so can dodge more readily etc... and get to do more damage with Impact Shot and Shadow Strike, and generally stay out of melee...and well I'm pretty sure that ITC isn't as necessary as is popularly believed among TRs.
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Feedback: I tested this revamped Path for PVE, and this will work with Stealth-based builds even without Gloaming Cut. The good thing about this new path is that it gives players the benefit of being able to attack foes from range, while under the cover of stealth. Unlike the stealth build based on Gloaming Cut, this'll make it easier to attack big opponents without risking being attacked in melee ranged. But the loss of ITC makes this new path a little worrisome. In place of ITC, we gain range, plus ITC is a good insurance against the opponent's control abilities. But feated Hateful Knives and Vengeance's Pursuit is awesome. VP can interrupt with the knife throw portion of the ability and add another utility effect which is to slow down enemies. It can also Stun and do AoE damage. Although I believe that the damage on this encounter is quite sub-par. And if possible, in order to make the encounter more attractive, the melee portion of the encounter should ALWAYS be an AoE, and let the Stealthed version Stun only the primary target.
Hateful Knives feated is just plain awesome in PVE since you are almost always guaranteed a full AP bar if you use Bait and Switch. This means you get free stealth refills whenever you strike the opponent you used Hateful Knives on. Should work in PVP as well as a good tool for node harassment.
How this path will perform in PVP, no one can really say for sure until its been tested in the live server. Disheartening Strike may be slow but it can hit hard with a good Vorpal. And people who use this path can soft replace ITC with Smoke Bomb if it's only for the purpose of evading damage and CC.
I've only successfully used ITC in PvP, a 5s dodge is worth very little to me. Now I can replace a 5s dodge with "escape CC and do damage", which suits me just fine.
I guess I'm just a terrible player and all those other things, never mind that I got my DPS up with Whisperknife and I'm no longer stuck with Duelist's to get DPS, and thus get locked into its attack cycle and so can dodge more readily etc... and get to do more damage with Impact Shot and Shadow Strike, and generally stay out of melee...and well I'm pretty sure that ITC isn't as necessary as is popularly believed among TRs.
Just to chime in on this discussion you guys are having. Back in Open Beta, most people would say how ITC is useless and horrible. Most of the old guides would advise against it, and people would say that slotting this non-DPS encounter on a rogue's skill bar is using the rogue wrong. It's fairly surprising how so many TR's nowadays swear by this skill. We can also include Impact Shot here, until it was highly popularized by the Permastealth Build by x3lade.
Anyway, with the new path, it'll be possible to have 5 Interrupts for the TR. 1 Impact Shot in Stealth, 3 outside Stealth, 1 from Vengeance's Pursuit's dagger throw (if feated). Shadow Strike to get 1 more full Stealth bar and 1 more Impact Shot for another Interrupt.
With this logic nothing is gonna be as good as the first paragon Path TR have
Not really. Just what they did replace it with isn't as good. Its not to say nothing out there is better. An encounter that prone would interesting to list an example.
Not really. Just what they did replace it with isn't as good. Its not to say nothing out there is better. An encounter that prone would interesting to list an example.
Thats the beauty of a opinion my dear the there is nothing wrong with the path most people are crying over losing ITC crutch my guildy just replaced it with smoke bomb this tree is a perma stealthers wet dream it has more synergy then glooming cut and the at will that comes with it dose mondo dmg.
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I dare say this warcry for the love of ItC is being exaggerated. Since the reworked version of Vengeance Pursuit came out on preview, here's my initial estimation of its control breaking potential (coming from a range-regen spec TR played defensively):
Though its damage may be subpar from other skills, it is in fact better, as ItC has none. It does perform more efficiently for breaking out of control effects provided it's used with good situational awareness: i.e. systematically throw the dagger portion to keep the follow up power always active. It remains active for 10 seconds, contiguously providing you 100% uptime to break control effects, a benefit that ItC lacks. It's unpredictable and cannot be waited out before it is put on cooldown. Only criticism I have is it's too lag sensitive and there is a slight delay during teleport which may compromise the rotation.
Pair this skill with the redundant range abilities that Whisperknife has and it renders the melee deflect bonus of Impossible to Catch completely unnecessary. Stealth does better to avoid damage from range. Further, upon leaving stealth, Advantageous Position grants 3 seconds of additional resistance from range, spending 3 points for the skill. I do think this duration can be extended, if it's not too much to ask.
yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I think it was funny how no one talked about ITC a few pages back, till someone brought it up for no reason again.
Since I haven't pvp'ed in preview yet, can someone confirm if Vengeful Pursuit allows to throw the knife while cc'ed, then teleport to break cc, or not (guessing not, but want to make sure). Other than that the 1 second animation to dash to your opponent is absolutely ridiculous, but until get all my numbers down I can't put up any feedback.
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
My early feedback on Pursuit would be:
Feedback: Power: Vengeance's Pursuit
1. Increase the damage slightly, although it is mainly a utility skill its utility is always conditional. Maybe the second portion only, could get a slight damage buff, since the first potion is very easy to get off.
Suggestion: Lose the AOE part, increase the single target damage of the second attack.
2. The second attack seems to have a 0.5 sec of immobility after you land the skill, leaving you vulnerable to any attacks (you can't even dodge). It could be lag on my part (I usually have 275-350 ping) but check it out.
Suggestions: make the overall animation faster, and the second attack's "backswing" animation smaller. OR make the second attack so it doesn't break stealth until you are next to your enemy. OR make the ability port you behind your enemy, like deft strike. My feeling is this leaves you too vulnerable after you use it, so its utility as an engage move is minimal. I often opted not using it, as it would result in me taking fatal damage.
3. The overall skills animation seemed a little slow. Combined with Disheartening Knife's also slow animations, it makes you very static. I think Vengeance's Pursuit at least requires some animation speeding-up.
4. I think activating the second attack should give you a ~1 sec CC immunity, else if you are multi-CC'ed you either not dash to your opponent anyway (the skill goes off with no result), or you land there CC'ed anyway. Basically you should be immune during the teleporting animation.
I dare say this warcry for the love of ItC is being exaggerated. Since the reworked version of Vengeance Pursuit came out on preview, here's my initial estimation of its control breaking potential (coming from a range-regen spec TR played defensively):
Though its damage may be subpar from other skills, it is in fact better, as ItC has none. It does perform more efficiently for breaking out of control effects provided it's used with good situational awareness: i.e. systematically throw the dagger portion to keep the follow up power always active. It remains active for 10 seconds, contiguously providing you 100% uptime to break control effects, a benefit that ItC lacks. It's unpredictable and cannot be waited out before it is put on cooldown. Only criticism I have is it's too lag sensitive and there is a slight delay during teleport which may compromise the rotation.
Pair this skill with the redundant range abilities that Whisperknife has and it renders the melee deflect bonus of Impossible to Catch completely unnecessary. Stealth does better to avoid damage from range. Further, upon leaving stealth, Advantageous Position grants 3 seconds of additional resistance from range, spending 3 points for the skill. I do think this duration can be extended, if it's not too much to ask.
Your analysis is way off. The damage VS no damage part is irrelevant, since ITC will probably be replaced with another non-damaging skill like Smoke Bomb, or Bait and Switch. Pursuit is actually a dps drop compared to using any other skill, including at-wills, due to the extremely long animations. Pursuit also has a 14-16 sec cooldown, depending on recovery. Just for comparison it is the 3rd least damaging encounter, after shadow strike and wicked reminder (which has a ~4 sec cd).
I am not sure how you can claim it performs more efficiently in breaking out of situations, first of all ITC has a 9 sec cd, secondly it breaks all CC for 5 sec not only 1, third Pursuit requires to have the knife thrown already (not hard but you are not always going to have it, i.e. a CW outranges you and cc's you; now you can't break free, very common scenario), so way more conditional. Fourth, ITC also provides a 75%/100% damage reduction for 5 sec, that is better that 2,2k of damage. Fifth, Pursuit doesn't allow you to break knockback locks/stun chains.
As a TR, it is very common to face other TR in contesting points. If you have Pursuit slotted and the enemy has ITC, who will win?
In any case, I don't know why people are fixated on ITC , these skills are not really similar, ITC has a perfect effect in that it does so no other skill will come close to replacing it. Pursuit gives one of the ITC benefits only on conditional demand and a longer cooldown. My problem with this tree is that , skill for skill, you lose a lot of benefits with minimal gains, and anything you gain, the other tree gives you as well.
1. Increase the damage slightly, although it is mainly a utility skill its utility is always conditional. Maybe the second portion only, could get a slight damage buff, since the first potion is very easy to get off.
Suggestion: Lose the AOE part, increase the single target damage of the second attack.
2. The second attack seems to have a 0.5 sec of immobility after you land the skill, leaving you vulnerable to any attacks (you can't even dodge). It could be lag on my part (I usually have 275-350 ping) but check it out.
Suggestions: make the overall animation faster, and the second attack's "backswing" animation smaller. OR make the second attack so it doesn't break stealth until you are next to your enemy. OR make the ability port you behind your enemy, like deft strike. My feeling is this leaves you too vulnerable after you use it, so its utility as an engage move is minimal. I often opted not using it, as it would result in me taking fatal damage.
3. The overall skills animation seemed a little slow. Combined with Disheartening Knife's also slow animations, it makes you very static. I think Vengeance's Pursuit at least requires some animation speeding-up.
4. I think activating the second attack should give you a ~1 sec CC immunity, else if you are multi-CC'ed you either not dash to your opponent anyway (the skill goes off with no result), or you land there CC'ed anyway. Basically you should be immune during the teleporting animation.
Your analysis is way off. The damage VS no damage part is irrelevant, since ITC will probably be replaced with another non-damaging skill like Smoke Bomb, or Bait and Switch. Pursuit is actually a dps drop compared to using any other skill, including at-wills, due to the extremely long animations. Pursuit also has a 14-16 sec cooldown, depending on recovery. Just for comparison it is the 3rd least damaging encounter, after shadow strike and wicked reminder (which has a ~4 sec cd).
I am not sure how you can claim it performs more efficiently in breaking out of situations, first of all ITC has a 9 sec cd, secondly it breaks all CC for 5 sec not only 1, third Pursuit requires to have the knife thrown already (not hard but you are not always going to have it, i.e. a CW outranges you and cc's you; now you can't break free, very common scenario), so way more conditional. Fourth, ITC also provides a 75%/100% damage reduction for 5 sec, that is better that 2,2k of damage. Fifth, Pursuit doesn't allow you to break knockback locks/stun chains.
As a TR, it is very common to face other TR in contesting points. If you have Pursuit slotted and the enemy has ITC, who will win?
In any case, I don't know why people are fixated on ITC , these skills are not really similar, ITC has a perfect effect in that it does so no other skill will come close to replacing it. Pursuit gives one of the ITC benefits only on conditional demand and a longer cooldown. My problem with this tree is that , skill for skill, you lose a lot of benefits with minimal gains, and anything you gain, the other tree gives you as well.
What person in the right mind would engage a person who has ITC UP the smarter player will win the battle not some one using a skill as a crutch
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
The smarter player will use the best skills to win the battle.
After all, people that use this tree only use Disheartening Strike as a crutch, preferring to fight from distance, because they are not good enough to play the class to its full potential, have good positioning, awareness, and win melee fights.
The smarter player will use the best skills to win the battle.
After all, people that use this tree only use Disheartening Strike as a crutch, preferring to fight from distance, because they are not good enough to play the class to its full potential, have good positioning, awareness, and win melee fights.
See what I did there
People that use this tree use it more for just disheartening strike feated hatfull knives and Dagger Threat this tree makes existing ranged skill's stronger like impact shot. you cannot call a whole paragon path useless because its lacks one skill or if it dose not play to your playstyle. Thats the point of Paragon paths to add additional options to the class just because you don't like the additional options dose not mean they will not strengthen another persons build. Also if you have Vengeful pursuit feated its a interrupt and a slow that can net you 5 interrupts on one skill bar if you use impact shot i belive a poster a few pages back pointed this out.
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What person in the right mind would engage a person who has ITC UP the smarter player will win the battle not some one using a skill as a crutch
For the sake of argument, let me add some strategy:
Against the rogue:
Impossible to Catch has at most a 5 seconds uptime, once it is triggered. A smart enemy rogue will attempt to find the perfect timing for it, so as not to blow the encounter for a rather long cooldown. How difficult is it to notice that an enemy pops ITC, he goes all black with that whooosh sound. If I had Vegeance Pursuit, I must have spec to Whisperknife, and I must have RANGE.
The distance I can create in that limited time gains me the advantage of range, and puts the other rogue at a disadvantage. ITC simply wears off in the time he needs to close the gap which I continue to make. At the end of ITC, it's back to dealing damage. Having slotted Vengeance Pursuit, we're no longer on even grounds. I have one cc breaker left, while his is on cooldown.
Against the wizard:
Taking into account how easily they are killed, here's what a play by play might look like. Starts off by trading Dish strike for Magic Missiles. The control fest starts when either the wizard entangles or freezes you. It does take some skill to perform indeed, but...given you have the second part of VP active, break CC and close the gap. Enter stealth at the same time, stun with Impact Shot. Follow up 3 more charges for a good interrupt, with Clouds of Steel in between. Shadow Strike, finish off with a final Impact Shot if he's got a good shield going.
If you are then faced with two opponents, say 2 rogues or 2 wizards, it's common sense to first separate them. Or, better yet, flee the scene.
yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Your distance is 40 ft max and a 1 sec animation to attack. A master infiltrator rogue has 15% more speed than you and will cover that distance with a dodge and attack. Or will simply outdamage you with CoS. Or you will be spamming each other with Impact shots (but he has ITC).
How will you trade Dish. Heart (40ft range ) with Magic Missile (80-90ft range)? How will a whisperknife rogue answer to a wizard opening with a perfect 100%dmg stun lock combo from max distance?
Anyhow I have a distaste for theorycrafting. I'd like to see some numbers that support the new path, but no one has provided any, still. That says something to me.
The new path is a ranged perma stealth TR. Why cryptic would do such a thing I have no idea, I had thought they didnt want perma stealth builds.
What happens when a TR or a couple TRs start doing T2 dungeons? Then a huge new round of nerfs? People always crying about TRs this just going to make it worse. I wish they would never have gone this way.
I would like to have seen something like a Swashbuckler. An avoidance based rogue/fighter. High deflect and some skills that allowed them to go toe to toe for awhile. A weapon master type skill that added deflect and crit severity and lifesteal for 5 stacks. Would be fun.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2013
I just tried whisper knife on the test server. This is my conclusion...
1) Whisper Knife skills lack pvp and pve power potential
2) Perm stealth with this class won't be good in pvp because its way too weak..
3) Range bleed skill does not stack.. but it's best to stop using it once you hit a critical, just change targets and let the last target take critical bleed damage.
4) New skills can be dodge with ease....
5) I would rather see TR get skills to place traps on the ground for enemies.. stun trap, slow trap (smoke bomb is almost like this), poison trap... These traps have a chance to be spotted and disarmed by other TR like in game.
5) I won't be changing my path anytime soon. I am not impressed...
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I wonder why, with so much negative feedback about the new path, devs will still go live with this. Also don't they have any current statistics of the feat trees that people use? Atleast 90% of trickster community uses executioner, and game has been live soon for a half year. Do they want to even make other options "attractive"? True there's few permastealths out there with saboteur and maybe few scoundrels, but if you want your rogue be viable in either top-end pvp or pve, you just have no other choice than to choose executioner. I can imagine it's the same for the new path that if you wan't to stay really effective, there's only master infiltrator as the way to go. I've talked with so many high-end rogues ingame and everyone says they wont be using new path with the new module. The feedback seems to do nothing afterall.
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Feedback is never useless, things change constantly and will change after the module 2 release as well. The problem is devs are probably not getting enough feedback in this thread. It is the least informative of all the feedback threads, people need to say exactly why they like/don't like in this new path, from simple things like "it's not too fun standing still and throwing knifes", to number crunching. The more feedback the better. I'm guessing it is too late in development stage to start something from scratch now. I also suspect there will be much balancing overall (AKA nerfs) among each class, so in the end the new paths will not actually feel weaker, compared to the current ones.
I would guess that the issue here is too much feedback amounts to this;
"No ITC meanz Whisperknife is the suxzor...waagh I wont play it."
That's hardly worth a Dev comment, actual play experience based feedback on the class features that are not "no ITC this suxzor" is pretty slim in the thread. I need to get back in and test again now that I have a bit more success on the live server with my TR anyway.
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Ah the good old "I'm not awesome 100% of the time" chestnut.
Sure I hate getting proned, especially with my GF with Guard up at full, but its hardly an issue with game play. Part of the challenge of games is having bad stuff happen to you some of the time; otherwise you might as well just hit combat dummies all day.
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I would guess that the issue here is too much feedback amounts to this;
"No ITC meanz Whisperknife is the suxzor...waagh I wont play it."
That's hardly worth a Dev comment, actual play experience based feedback on the class features that are not "no ITC this suxzor" is pretty slim in the thread. I need to get back in and test again now that I have a bit more success on the live server with my TR anyway.
Almost.
As far as the thread goes, the top two subjects of feedback so far are currently:
"Whisperknife damage too low"
"No ITC = maximyun fail"
And, honestly, every new paragon path with the exception of Iron Vanguard has had the "performance in all situations is worse compared to original paragon path" feedback. And to make things even worse, Hunter Ranger's feedback amounts to "they can't do horsedung".
I understand this is a preview server, but nearly everything class balance wise needs an overhaul.
As it is VP has been tweaked in response to community feedback, and I then gave feedback on it post tweak. Heck I'm even going to go in and rebuild and test again after today's patch (what with the potential for sneak tweaks not listed in the patch notes) and I'll give feedback again on that.
Yes the damage output on Master of Flame, Whisperknife and Ranger need more fine tuning, and at least for the MoF there has been some actual number crunching done. Maybe some of the experienced TR players who like to number crunch should do the same and give that concrete feedback?
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Ah the good old "I'm not awesome 100% of the time" chestnut.
Sure I hate getting proned, especially with my GF with Guard up at full, but its hardly an issue with game play. Part of the challenge of games is having bad stuff happen to you some of the time; otherwise you might as well just hit combat dummies all day.
lol um not saying im awesome 100% of the time. 99 maybe.
ItC is our not get proned utility power. Even using it you need to be skilled verse an experienced GF or you are toast. I don't see anything to replace its utility for not getting proned in the new path. You aren't going to out dodge a good gf and as soon as you start throwing your daggers he's gonna know where you are. Then you can enjoy the flight. Now the gwf's are getting them as well. Double the fun.
The new path takes away our best utility power and a great pvp daily as well as class feature. The dev blog said the new path adds more utility but i'm not seeing it in practice. You get a short ranged at will that isn't going to burst anything down. Using my pvp gear the damage is sub par. Maybe if it hits for 4k like the video showed we can talk but right now all the fighter classes are gonna do is laugh at you when you attack.
I like the fact that you are testing. What damage numbers are you seeing for the at will?
Hint the Whisperknife tries to stay at range, you are not going to willingly run up to the Iron Vanguard to be knocked prone; you are going to hang back and use Disheartening/Cloud of Steel/Impact Shot and Shadow Strike and the ranged portion of Vengeance's Pursuit, (to get away from the Vanguard by tagging someone else with the Ranged power at the start of the fight..) plus of course dodging.
If I screw up and they close and I get knocked prone, well I deserve what I get..
As to damage with Disheartening and a Sab spec (I'm trying to optimize for Disheartening not Flurry here) with Shadowalkers and rank 5s I get 900-1k per attack and 1500-2k crits with no steath/ca for 9 total attacks from 3 clicks of Disheartening. That goes up to 1-1,2k per attack with 2-2.5k crits also for 9 attacks from 3 clicks with stealth.
I need to break down my Flurry data yet to understand that better, but the numbers seem pretty similar.
All that said I now have to report some bugs.
Bug: Disheartening Strike Bleed
If the first dot of bleed for Disheartening Strike Crits all subsequent dots crit for the same amount of damage. Which while doing great things for DPS seems very incorrect.
Bug: Vengeance's Pursuit "Dazed"
When cycling this power quickly (ie essentially double tapping) sometimes I get the message "Cannot activate while dazed" this also happens sometimes after the second attack if you try to trigger another power too quickly after wards. This is the opposite of escaping CC...
Bug: Vengeance's Pursuit "Cooldown Timer"
When you activate the second part of this power there is no countdown for the cooldown timer.
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Comments
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
With this logic nothing is gonna be as good as the first paragon Path TR have
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This is exactly the point. It's not the new path which is weak. Whisperknife instead (from what i've seen) is pretty cool and fun. Especially this reworked encounter.
But majority will still stay Master Infiltrator, just 'cos ItC and Shocking Execution are too strong. Because it works even with brainless playstyles (read below).
No rogue in his mind would drop it for whatever Whisperknife can give. Personally, I would call it OP, especially ItC.
Only obvious solution, in my opinion, is to give SE and ItC minor nerfs, so it could compete SOMEHOW with Whisperknife powers.
For example:
1) Make SE dodgeable, but instead significantly increase animation speed. Make it possible, but hard to dodge. So there would be at least some counter-f**ing-play. Now it just acts like an "I win" button.
2) reduce duration of ItC slightly. Like 2 sec for non-stealthed use, down from 3; and somewhat 3.5 seconds for stealthed use, down from 5. It's more than enough to break CC and absorb burst.
Now some rogues just use it randomly, without any second thought; without foes, putting any pressure on them - just for fun, you know, because 5 seconds is effin strong. This change would inspire smarter usage of this ability instead and, possibly, even develop some tactical thinking!
My videos
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If you holding on to ITC as your crutch no this build is not for you if you have a open mind and are willing to experiment yes the build is viable for you. It all depends on you playstyle and if you good enough with out every ones crutch skill ITC
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I guess I'm just a terrible player and all those other things, never mind that I got my DPS up with Whisperknife and I'm no longer stuck with Duelist's to get DPS, and thus get locked into its attack cycle and so can dodge more readily etc... and get to do more damage with Impact Shot and Shadow Strike, and generally stay out of melee...and well I'm pretty sure that ITC isn't as necessary as is popularly believed among TRs.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Hateful Knives feated is just plain awesome in PVE since you are almost always guaranteed a full AP bar if you use Bait and Switch. This means you get free stealth refills whenever you strike the opponent you used Hateful Knives on. Should work in PVP as well as a good tool for node harassment.
How this path will perform in PVP, no one can really say for sure until its been tested in the live server. Disheartening Strike may be slow but it can hit hard with a good Vorpal. And people who use this path can soft replace ITC with Smoke Bomb if it's only for the purpose of evading damage and CC.
Just to chime in on this discussion you guys are having. Back in Open Beta, most people would say how ITC is useless and horrible. Most of the old guides would advise against it, and people would say that slotting this non-DPS encounter on a rogue's skill bar is using the rogue wrong. It's fairly surprising how so many TR's nowadays swear by this skill. We can also include Impact Shot here, until it was highly popularized by the Permastealth Build by x3lade.
Anyway, with the new path, it'll be possible to have 5 Interrupts for the TR. 1 Impact Shot in Stealth, 3 outside Stealth, 1 from Vengeance's Pursuit's dagger throw (if feated). Shadow Strike to get 1 more full Stealth bar and 1 more Impact Shot for another Interrupt.
Not really. Just what they did replace it with isn't as good. Its not to say nothing out there is better. An encounter that prone would interesting to list an example.
Thats the beauty of a opinion my dear the there is nothing wrong with the path most people are crying over losing ITC crutch my guildy just replaced it with smoke bomb this tree is a perma stealthers wet dream it has more synergy then glooming cut and the at will that comes with it dose mondo dmg.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Though its damage may be subpar from other skills, it is in fact better, as ItC has none. It does perform more efficiently for breaking out of control effects provided it's used with good situational awareness: i.e. systematically throw the dagger portion to keep the follow up power always active. It remains active for 10 seconds, contiguously providing you 100% uptime to break control effects, a benefit that ItC lacks. It's unpredictable and cannot be waited out before it is put on cooldown. Only criticism I have is it's too lag sensitive and there is a slight delay during teleport which may compromise the rotation.
Pair this skill with the redundant range abilities that Whisperknife has and it renders the melee deflect bonus of Impossible to Catch completely unnecessary. Stealth does better to avoid damage from range. Further, upon leaving stealth, Advantageous Position grants 3 seconds of additional resistance from range, spending 3 points for the skill. I do think this duration can be extended, if it's not too much to ask.
Since I haven't pvp'ed in preview yet, can someone confirm if Vengeful Pursuit allows to throw the knife while cc'ed, then teleport to break cc, or not (guessing not, but want to make sure). Other than that the 1 second animation to dash to your opponent is absolutely ridiculous, but until get all my numbers down I can't put up any feedback.
Feedback: Power: Vengeance's Pursuit
1. Increase the damage slightly, although it is mainly a utility skill its utility is always conditional. Maybe the second portion only, could get a slight damage buff, since the first potion is very easy to get off.
Suggestion: Lose the AOE part, increase the single target damage of the second attack.
2. The second attack seems to have a 0.5 sec of immobility after you land the skill, leaving you vulnerable to any attacks (you can't even dodge). It could be lag on my part (I usually have 275-350 ping) but check it out.
Suggestions: make the overall animation faster, and the second attack's "backswing" animation smaller. OR make the second attack so it doesn't break stealth until you are next to your enemy. OR make the ability port you behind your enemy, like deft strike. My feeling is this leaves you too vulnerable after you use it, so its utility as an engage move is minimal. I often opted not using it, as it would result in me taking fatal damage.
3. The overall skills animation seemed a little slow. Combined with Disheartening Knife's also slow animations, it makes you very static. I think Vengeance's Pursuit at least requires some animation speeding-up.
4. I think activating the second attack should give you a ~1 sec CC immunity, else if you are multi-CC'ed you either not dash to your opponent anyway (the skill goes off with no result), or you land there CC'ed anyway. Basically you should be immune during the teleporting animation.
Your analysis is way off. The damage VS no damage part is irrelevant, since ITC will probably be replaced with another non-damaging skill like Smoke Bomb, or Bait and Switch. Pursuit is actually a dps drop compared to using any other skill, including at-wills, due to the extremely long animations. Pursuit also has a 14-16 sec cooldown, depending on recovery. Just for comparison it is the 3rd least damaging encounter, after shadow strike and wicked reminder (which has a ~4 sec cd).
I am not sure how you can claim it performs more efficiently in breaking out of situations, first of all ITC has a 9 sec cd, secondly it breaks all CC for 5 sec not only 1, third Pursuit requires to have the knife thrown already (not hard but you are not always going to have it, i.e. a CW outranges you and cc's you; now you can't break free, very common scenario), so way more conditional. Fourth, ITC also provides a 75%/100% damage reduction for 5 sec, that is better that 2,2k of damage. Fifth, Pursuit doesn't allow you to break knockback locks/stun chains.
As a TR, it is very common to face other TR in contesting points. If you have Pursuit slotted and the enemy has ITC, who will win?
In any case, I don't know why people are fixated on ITC
What person in the right mind would engage a person who has ITC UP the smarter player will win the battle not some one using a skill as a crutch
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
After all, people that use this tree only use Disheartening Strike as a crutch, preferring to fight from distance, because they are not good enough to play the class to its full potential, have good positioning, awareness, and win melee fights.
See what I did there
People that use this tree use it more for just disheartening strike feated hatfull knives and Dagger Threat this tree makes existing ranged skill's stronger like impact shot. you cannot call a whole paragon path useless because its lacks one skill or if it dose not play to your playstyle. Thats the point of Paragon paths to add additional options to the class just because you don't like the additional options dose not mean they will not strengthen another persons build. Also if you have Vengeful pursuit feated its a interrupt and a slow that can net you 5 interrupts on one skill bar if you use impact shot i belive a poster a few pages back pointed this out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Right on point answer:
For the sake of argument, let me add some strategy:
Against the rogue:
Impossible to Catch has at most a 5 seconds uptime, once it is triggered. A smart enemy rogue will attempt to find the perfect timing for it, so as not to blow the encounter for a rather long cooldown. How difficult is it to notice that an enemy pops ITC, he goes all black with that whooosh sound. If I had Vegeance Pursuit, I must have spec to Whisperknife, and I must have RANGE.
The distance I can create in that limited time gains me the advantage of range, and puts the other rogue at a disadvantage. ITC simply wears off in the time he needs to close the gap which I continue to make. At the end of ITC, it's back to dealing damage. Having slotted Vengeance Pursuit, we're no longer on even grounds. I have one cc breaker left, while his is on cooldown.
Against the wizard:
Taking into account how easily they are killed, here's what a play by play might look like. Starts off by trading Dish strike for Magic Missiles. The control fest starts when either the wizard entangles or freezes you. It does take some skill to perform indeed, but...given you have the second part of VP active, break CC and close the gap. Enter stealth at the same time, stun with Impact Shot. Follow up 3 more charges for a good interrupt, with Clouds of Steel in between. Shadow Strike, finish off with a final Impact Shot if he's got a good shield going.
If you are then faced with two opponents, say 2 rogues or 2 wizards, it's common sense to first separate them. Or, better yet, flee the scene.
How will you trade Dish. Heart (40ft range ) with Magic Missile (80-90ft range)? How will a whisperknife rogue answer to a wizard opening with a perfect 100%dmg stun lock combo from max distance?
Anyhow I have a distaste for theorycrafting. I'd like to see some numbers that support the new path, but no one has provided any, still. That says something to me.
What happens when a TR or a couple TRs start doing T2 dungeons? Then a huge new round of nerfs? People always crying about TRs this just going to make it worse. I wish they would never have gone this way.
I would like to have seen something like a Swashbuckler. An avoidance based rogue/fighter. High deflect and some skills that allowed them to go toe to toe for awhile. A weapon master type skill that added deflect and crit severity and lifesteal for 5 stacks. Would be fun.
1) Whisper Knife skills lack pvp and pve power potential
2) Perm stealth with this class won't be good in pvp because its way too weak..
3) Range bleed skill does not stack.. but it's best to stop using it once you hit a critical, just change targets and let the last target take critical bleed damage.
4) New skills can be dodge with ease....
5) I would rather see TR get skills to place traps on the ground for enemies.. stun trap, slow trap (smoke bomb is almost like this), poison trap... These traps have a chance to be spotted and disarmed by other TR like in game.
5) I won't be changing my path anytime soon. I am not impressed...
"No ITC meanz Whisperknife is the suxzor...waagh I wont play it."
That's hardly worth a Dev comment, actual play experience based feedback on the class features that are not "no ITC this suxzor" is pretty slim in the thread. I need to get back in and test again now that I have a bit more success on the live server with my TR anyway.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Sure I hate getting proned, especially with my GF with Guard up at full, but its hardly an issue with game play. Part of the challenge of games is having bad stuff happen to you some of the time; otherwise you might as well just hit combat dummies all day.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Almost.
As far as the thread goes, the top two subjects of feedback so far are currently:
"Whisperknife damage too low"
"No ITC = maximyun fail"
And, honestly, every new paragon path with the exception of Iron Vanguard has had the "performance in all situations is worse compared to original paragon path" feedback. And to make things even worse, Hunter Ranger's feedback amounts to "they can't do horsedung".
I understand this is a preview server, but nearly everything class balance wise needs an overhaul.
To get the balance tweaked so it is better.
As it is VP has been tweaked in response to community feedback, and I then gave feedback on it post tweak. Heck I'm even going to go in and rebuild and test again after today's patch (what with the potential for sneak tweaks not listed in the patch notes) and I'll give feedback again on that.
Yes the damage output on Master of Flame, Whisperknife and Ranger need more fine tuning, and at least for the MoF there has been some actual number crunching done. Maybe some of the experienced TR players who like to number crunch should do the same and give that concrete feedback?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
lol um not saying im awesome 100% of the time. 99 maybe.
ItC is our not get proned utility power. Even using it you need to be skilled verse an experienced GF or you are toast. I don't see anything to replace its utility for not getting proned in the new path. You aren't going to out dodge a good gf and as soon as you start throwing your daggers he's gonna know where you are. Then you can enjoy the flight. Now the gwf's are getting them as well. Double the fun.
The new path takes away our best utility power and a great pvp daily as well as class feature. The dev blog said the new path adds more utility but i'm not seeing it in practice. You get a short ranged at will that isn't going to burst anything down. Using my pvp gear the damage is sub par. Maybe if it hits for 4k like the video showed we can talk but right now all the fighter classes are gonna do is laugh at you when you attack.
I like the fact that you are testing. What damage numbers are you seeing for the at will?
If I screw up and they close and I get knocked prone, well I deserve what I get..
As to damage with Disheartening and a Sab spec (I'm trying to optimize for Disheartening not Flurry here) with Shadowalkers and rank 5s I get 900-1k per attack and 1500-2k crits with no steath/ca for 9 total attacks from 3 clicks of Disheartening. That goes up to 1-1,2k per attack with 2-2.5k crits also for 9 attacks from 3 clicks with stealth.
I need to break down my Flurry data yet to understand that better, but the numbers seem pretty similar.
All that said I now have to report some bugs.
Bug: Disheartening Strike Bleed
If the first dot of bleed for Disheartening Strike Crits all subsequent dots crit for the same amount of damage. Which while doing great things for DPS seems very incorrect.
Bug: Vengeance's Pursuit "Dazed"
When cycling this power quickly (ie essentially double tapping) sometimes I get the message "Cannot activate while dazed" this also happens sometimes after the second attack if you try to trigger another power too quickly after wards. This is the opposite of escaping CC...
Bug: Vengeance's Pursuit "Cooldown Timer"
When you activate the second part of this power there is no countdown for the cooldown timer.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.