So I was testing the new path a while back in Caverns of Karrundax and did it solo up until Pyraphenia. I only have 9.5k GS, absolutely no enchantments used. Just a 4/4 T1 set and an Ancient Grand Knight set. But I managed to pulled it off, which I think is nice for a toon with below 10k GS. However I did it only up until Pyraphenia. Dealing with so many adds alone is really troublesome.
That said, I think it's safe to say that Protectors and Tacticians who are not spec-ed for DPS will greatly benefit from this new path. I've got a build ready just for this new path, and hopefully it might entice players who haven't played GF's to try it out. The new path can be fun if played right.
Although, yes, it took me an hour and thirty minutes just to finish Pyraphenia by myself.
Not sure what you meant by that question, but yeah, I used a CF from the new PP during the span of the run. It's perfect for a class that generates so much AP like GF's.
Talking about ways to improve GF mark. I would love if bosses had immunity against enforced threat. And for me,*tab* mark would be better if was possible in only one target, but generating minor threat in monsters around, like a AOE. That would make easy to pull small groups inside dungeons, I usually lose the first mark when I try to mark another enemy (because of damage).
*This way we have 3 different ways to mark enemies. Giving us more control in our strategy.
Tab, ET, TR*
Feedback: General:I just noticed that there were a couple of new stat indicators in Module 2 whenever I view the character sheet. Would it be possible to add Threat Generation in there as well? This way it'd be easier to keep track of it per class.
Talking about ways to improve GF mark. I would love if bosses had immunity against enforced threat. And for me, mark would be better if was possible in only one target, but generating minor threat in monsters around, like a AOE. That would make easy to pull small groups inside dungeons, I usually lose the first mark when I try to mark another enemy (because of damage).
Mark debuff give you and all other strikers against the marked one 8% damage increase. So it must be to all targets every time. Disappearing because you have problems to keep the boss away from your kiting group don't mean that other GF have to pay a 8% damage increase due this mark!
Would love to have a feedback on whether the proposed TAB change will hit Module 2. Looking at the calender one should suspect no. Would be a shame, I was really looking forward to it.
Bug: Class Feature: Steel Defense.
- From extensive testing, I noticed that Steel Defense prevents us from gaining AP while using Block when it's active. Steel Defense also prevents AP gain from the Tactician Capstone Feat, Martial Mastery.
Bug: Class Feature: Steel Defense.
- From extensive testing, I noticed that Steel Defense prevents us from gaining AP while using Block when it's active. Steel Defense also prevents AP gain from the Tactician Capstone Feat, Martial Mastery.
You simply take 0 damage. So it make sense, that it don't generate AP. It's the same with Determination bar of GWF with AoS using or even that feature used due other Daily used.
Okay, I'll probably just leave it at that. I think it's okay like this anyway. I just thought I'd let the devs know if by any chance this isn't intended, since they do change things that they deem not as intended. Like how Frontline Surge and Roar shouldn't generate AP per target hit.
Okay, I'll probably just leave it at that. I think it's okay like this anyway. I just thought I'd let the devs know if by any chance this isn't intended, since they do change things that they deem not as intended. Like how Frontline Surge and Roar shouldn't generate AP per target hit.
Maybe the block can gain AP, but the description of tactician capstone say hurt so im not feeling it's intended, that they gain Ap too from 0 damage. =( Have you tried out if the capstone varied in gainig AP for same impact on HP(different base damage/different impact damage). The problem is, that damage immunity is applied before DR is counted. So you mitigate 0 damage at your block/yourself and that result in 0 AP gain. =/ I hope the dev could make a exception for these cases, especially because the Tactician would less benefit from it's own advantage due this. I hope my explanation is good for you why it work so like it do.
Yes, I managed to include that in my tests as well! I duo ran Heroic Karrundax with Setherio a while back and we managed to bag some pretty nice results for both of the paragon paths we were trying to test, discovering new stuff about the limitations and capabilities of our respective paths.
The AP that the capstone feat of Tactician gives to us isn't too noticeable with this path. I generally gain 1-2% per hit when I'm not immune to damage, but when struck with big attacks I gain around 2-4% depending on the power of the attack. I have around 48% DR, for reference. The fact that I have to take damage in order to gain AP makes this a little dangerous and unreliable, most specially since the role of GF's is to get hit for your allies. But I still gain AP, taking me much nearer to a daily for a dose of immunity. I guess that's a perk in it's own way, but still takes me nearer to death's doorstep. It doesn't help that being immune to damage during the process of getting the AP... well, doesn't help me at all lol. Would be great if the AP gain was based from the base damage we receive against the opponent regardless of damage immunity. But if not then okay, I'm cool with that. Something I have to work around with while tanking.
Still, I like Steel Defense and Steel Blitz. Steel Defense adds further utility to our ability to generate AP the fastest out of all the other classes. Gives us breathing room while we're tanking. It'd be awesome if the Mark didn't disappear when we get struck, though. I really do not understand the reasoning behind this mechanic. The imposed limitation makes the process of tanking doesn't feel too tank-ish. Steel Blitz is nice. I like how it procs from Supremacy of Steel, with SoS having no target cap which is pretty sweet. Extra threat generated from the healing via Lifedrinker in a room teeming with adds.
Yes, I managed to include that in my tests as well! I duo ran Heroic Karrundax with Setherio a while back and we managed to bag some pretty nice results for both of the paragon paths we were trying to test, discovering new stuff about the limitations and capabilities of our respective paths.
The AP that the capstone feat of Tactician gives to us isn't too noticeable with this path. I generally gain 1-2% per hit when I'm not immune to damage, but when struck with big attacks I gain around 2-4% depending on the power of the attack. I have around 48% DR, for reference. The fact that I have to take damage in order to gain AP makes this a little dangerous and unreliable, most specially since the role of GF's is to get hit for your allies. But I still gain AP, taking me much nearer to a daily for a dose of immunity. I guess that's a perk in it's own way, but still takes me nearer to death's doorstep. It doesn't help that being immune to damage during the process of getting the AP... well, doesn't help me at all lol. Would be great if the AP gain was based from the base damage we receive against the opponent regardless of damage immunity. But if not then okay, I'm cool with that. Something I have to work around with while tanking.
Still, I like Steel Defense and Steel Blitz. Steel Defense adds further utility to our ability to generate AP the fastest out of all the other classes. Gives us breathing room while we're tanking. It'd be awesome if the Mark didn't disappear when we get struck, though. I really do not understand the reasoning behind this mechanic. The imposed limitation makes the process of tanking doesn't feel too tank-ish. Steel Blitz is nice. I like how it procs from Supremacy of Steel, with SoS having no target cap which is pretty sweet. Extra threat generated from the healing via Lifedrinker in a room teeming with adds.
I don't will shock you, but the rate of Steel Blitz activation is ~5%(over 1000 hits against Dummies) against a single target(but don't know how high it will be by hitting more than one target). Second it is a % of your weapon damage(R3 seem 90%, but don't nail me to this value!).
The block count the total base damage of an attack(mean 20k of a hard hitting attack) and not the mitigated version(that only count for drain of Guard Meter if less 18% of them else 18% normal max...)
And 2-4% per hit is... not really much. ^^ With blocking i get the same or even higher. xD
Do you play a GWF? Steel Blitz + Avalanche of Steel = mega murderer Steel blitz determination bar bombing action(okay if you have more than 5 targets). xD
Not sure what you meant by that question, but yeah, I used a CF from the new PP during the span of the run. It's perfect for a class that generates so much AP like GF's.
I mean did you use anything but 1 class feature from the Swordmaster?
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I don't will shock you, but the rate of Steel Blitz activation is ~5%(over 1000 hits against Dummies) against a single target(but don't know how high it will be by hitting more than one target). Second it is a % of your weapon damage(R3 seem 90%, but don't nail me to this value!).
The block count the total base damage of an attack(mean 20k of a hard hitting attack) and not the mitigated version(that only count for drain of Guard Meter if less 18% of them else 18% normal max...)
And 2-4% per hit is... not really much. ^^ With blocking i get the same or even higher. xD
Do you play a GWF? Steel Blitz + Avalanche of Steel = mega murderer Steel blitz determination bar bombing action(okay if you have more than 5 targets). xD
Really? for some reason I think I've seen it proc much more than 5%. Maybe you're using it with single target attacks? I personally like how often it seemed to proc with Cleave against mobs rushing towards me, and it is able to deal a decent amount of extra damage when I used Supremacy of Steel's second activation in the Kobold room before the Hand of Magaera boss fight. Having no target cap, I just taunted every Kobold I could see while immune, then released a nice rain of golden swords. My screen gave me bad graphics lag after doing so.
And yeah I agree. I'm not sure if I'm doing anything wrong with Tactician. I think I'm doing it right. Got my DR above 48%, let myself get hit while kiting, but the AP I gain from kiting is negligible as compared to the AP I can get from Blocking. And it just so happens that Steel Defense makes it easier to regain my block meter and prepare myself for the next wave of daily bombing. Which led me to the conclusion that I may as well use Protector instead if Tactician doesn't give AP while under the effects of Steel Defense and just improve the condition of my blocking using Protector.
The new path is bad, that's for sure. Doesn't bring anything new on the table for Conquerors, but opens a lot of new possibilities for tank builds of all sorts.
lunging strike 7.6 second cooldown 3492-3943 damage
flourish 13.4 second cooldown 2857-3247 damage
Lol. How many damage on Griffon's Wrath?
@Todesfaelle: Sure. The Steel Blitz activation is dependent how many targets you hit. I only wanted to point out that's in PvP and small groups/single targets is not helpful. But by hitting 3 or more targets i see how the Steel Blitz cover the enemies. xD
lunging strike 7.6 second cooldown 3492-3943 damage
flourish 13.4 second cooldown 2857-3247 damage
Yeah, I really hope that there will be tweaking in the future. Vanguard for GWFs could be nerfed due to PVP while Swordmaster for GFs has to be made viable for PVE.
Flourish is still usefull when you want to add another Stun/Single-Target spell for some reason. Tactitian Lunging, Flourish and Griffon in theory is a nice rotation, but has no place in PVE whatsoever, bc of boss immunities.
Also kinda disappointed that none of the proposed changes made it to Module 2 for GFs.
I still like my GF for single player content. A Conq GF can buy blue gear + a purple weapon for less than 10k ADs, will end up with 11k GS (R4s) with 6k power and 3k def and can instantly solo the Sharandar and also the upcoming Dread Ring campaign. Have yet to get my first 60 TR but I don't think any other class can level and gear up that easy and be competitive.
You want to know why gf gear is so cheap? It's because no one plays it. No one wants them for any dungeons except for kiting adds in FH and SP. Whoever is in charge of balancing gf can't do it even if it was their dying mother's last wish.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I still like my GF for single player content. A Conq GF can buy blue gear + a purple weapon for less than 10k ADs, will end up with 11k GS (R4s) with 6k power and 3k def and can instantly solo the Sharandar and also the upcoming Dread Ring campaign. Have yet to get my first 60 TR but I don't think any other class can level and gear up that easy and be competitive.
In my experience. Ease of gearing...GF(cheap as chips) >> TR(GG PvP gear is insanely easy to get and highly effective) > DC(DC isn't all that gear dependent imo, so long as your party isn't derpy) >> CW(Lot's of competition for DD places and high priced in the AH if you want to try and buy) >>>>> GWF(Good luck getting a DD party without a guild if you're under 12k and gear costs a fortune)
dkcandy, much as I respect you for making good builds for gf that make them almost decent, the fact is gf's were so weak in module 1 very few people wanted to play them, and even fewer will want to play them in module 2. I have followed your dps build almost to the letter and I have played a lot of gwf builds in mod 1, and I could tell you in a good team there's nothing you need from a gf that a gwf couldn't already do better except where you have to kite. With mod 2 the gwf is getting such a massive boost and getting so many of gf's key powers including mark debuff that there's really no way I would ever invite a gf into a dungeon group in t2 or t2.5 dungeons unless I was trying to help him out. Fact is, in 99% of end game content, you do not need any tanking whatsoever with enough dps, and in fact gf's will detract from gwf determination gain which to me is the death knell of an already very weak class in mod 2 where every end game group will have 2-4 gwf's. GF's are bad, and will become super bad in mod 2, and no matter how much you theory craft, gwf will do double or triple their damage.
How will help GF to be immortal(especially in which part?)? In PvE it doesn't have any use, because most time group wipe = dead GF too. And PvE solo = doesn't matter. PvP? Doesn't matter because living don't give any benefit.
I said it over at the DC thread: With the immunities and DR boost from Steel Defense & Exaltation, a tank can now just stand in the middle of everything. No more running, no more kiting. I'd name it the Obelix-build :cool:
Designers, please check out how many ancient mulhorand shield and ancient mulhorand longswords there are in the auction house compared to any other class items, and the prices. No one cares what you have done for GF, it is a worthless class now. This is especially saddening to me because I loved the shield mechanic, but with every module release everybody's damage is increased without any increased need for a tank and right now we've reached the point where even a cleric may become unnecessary for 90% of the game content, and can you imagine how irrelevant a tank class is now? If I could I would fire all of you designers.
Comments
That said, I think it's safe to say that Protectors and Tacticians who are not spec-ed for DPS will greatly benefit from this new path. I've got a build ready just for this new path, and hopefully it might entice players who haven't played GF's to try it out. The new path can be fun if played right.
Although, yes, it took me an hour and thirty minutes just to finish Pyraphenia by myself.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
*This way we have 3 different ways to mark enemies. Giving us more control in our strategy.
Tab, ET, TR*
Edit: * *
Mark debuff give you and all other strikers against the marked one 8% damage increase. So it must be to all targets every time. Disappearing because you have problems to keep the boss away from your kiting group don't mean that other GF have to pay a 8% damage increase due this mark!
- From extensive testing, I noticed that Steel Defense prevents us from gaining AP while using Block when it's active. Steel Defense also prevents AP gain from the Tactician Capstone Feat, Martial Mastery.
You simply take 0 damage. So it make sense, that it don't generate AP. It's the same with Determination bar of GWF with AoS using or even that feature used due other Daily used.
Maybe the block can gain AP, but the description of tactician capstone say hurt so im not feeling it's intended, that they gain Ap too from 0 damage. =( Have you tried out if the capstone varied in gainig AP for same impact on HP(different base damage/different impact damage). The problem is, that damage immunity is applied before DR is counted. So you mitigate 0 damage at your block/yourself and that result in 0 AP gain. =/ I hope the dev could make a exception for these cases, especially because the Tactician would less benefit from it's own advantage due this. I hope my explanation is good for you why it work so like it do.
The AP that the capstone feat of Tactician gives to us isn't too noticeable with this path. I generally gain 1-2% per hit when I'm not immune to damage, but when struck with big attacks I gain around 2-4% depending on the power of the attack. I have around 48% DR, for reference. The fact that I have to take damage in order to gain AP makes this a little dangerous and unreliable, most specially since the role of GF's is to get hit for your allies. But I still gain AP, taking me much nearer to a daily for a dose of immunity. I guess that's a perk in it's own way, but still takes me nearer to death's doorstep. It doesn't help that being immune to damage during the process of getting the AP... well, doesn't help me at all lol. Would be great if the AP gain was based from the base damage we receive against the opponent regardless of damage immunity. But if not then okay, I'm cool with that. Something I have to work around with while tanking.
Still, I like Steel Defense and Steel Blitz. Steel Defense adds further utility to our ability to generate AP the fastest out of all the other classes. Gives us breathing room while we're tanking. It'd be awesome if the Mark didn't disappear when we get struck, though. I really do not understand the reasoning behind this mechanic. The imposed limitation makes the process of tanking doesn't feel too tank-ish. Steel Blitz is nice. I like how it procs from Supremacy of Steel, with SoS having no target cap which is pretty sweet. Extra threat generated from the healing via Lifedrinker in a room teeming with adds.
I don't will shock you, but the rate of Steel Blitz activation is ~5%(over 1000 hits against Dummies) against a single target(but don't know how high it will be by hitting more than one target). Second it is a % of your weapon damage(R3 seem 90%, but don't nail me to this value!).
The block count the total base damage of an attack(mean 20k of a hard hitting attack) and not the mitigated version(that only count for drain of Guard Meter if less 18% of them else 18% normal max...)
And 2-4% per hit is... not really much. ^^ With blocking i get the same or even higher. xD
Do you play a GWF? Steel Blitz + Avalanche of Steel = mega murderer Steel blitz determination bar bombing action(okay if you have more than 5 targets). xD
I mean did you use anything but 1 class feature from the Swordmaster?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Really? for some reason I think I've seen it proc much more than 5%. Maybe you're using it with single target attacks? I personally like how often it seemed to proc with Cleave against mobs rushing towards me, and it is able to deal a decent amount of extra damage when I used Supremacy of Steel's second activation in the Kobold room before the Hand of Magaera boss fight. Having no target cap, I just taunted every Kobold I could see while immune, then released a nice rain of golden swords. My screen gave me bad graphics lag after doing so.
And yeah I agree. I'm not sure if I'm doing anything wrong with Tactician. I think I'm doing it right. Got my DR above 48%, let myself get hit while kiting, but the AP I gain from kiting is negligible as compared to the AP I can get from Blocking. And it just so happens that Steel Defense makes it easier to regain my block meter and prepare myself for the next wave of daily bombing. Which led me to the conclusion that I may as well use Protector instead if Tactician doesn't give AP while under the effects of Steel Defense and just improve the condition of my blocking using Protector.
The new path is bad, that's for sure. Doesn't bring anything new on the table for Conquerors, but opens a lot of new possibilities for tank builds of all sorts.
flourish 13.4 second cooldown 2857-3247 damage
Rest in peace gf.
Lol. How many damage on Griffon's Wrath?
@Todesfaelle: Sure. The Steel Blitz activation is dependent how many targets you hit. I only wanted to point out that's in PvP and small groups/single targets is not helpful. But by hitting 3 or more targets i see how the Steel Blitz cover the enemies. xD
Yeah, I really hope that there will be tweaking in the future. Vanguard for GWFs could be nerfed due to PVP while Swordmaster for GFs has to be made viable for PVE.
Flourish is still usefull when you want to add another Stun/Single-Target spell for some reason. Tactitian Lunging, Flourish and Griffon in theory is a nice rotation, but has no place in PVE whatsoever, bc of boss immunities.
Also kinda disappointed that none of the proposed changes made it to Module 2 for GFs.
In my experience. Ease of gearing...GF(cheap as chips) >> TR(GG PvP gear is insanely easy to get and highly effective) > DC(DC isn't all that gear dependent imo, so long as your party isn't derpy) >> CW(Lot's of competition for DD places and high priced in the AH if you want to try and buy) >>>>> GWF(Good luck getting a DD party without a guild if you're under 12k and gear costs a fortune)
GF = Immortal
GWF = Immortal
Thanks Cryptic.
I'll post the Immortal build after Live for GFs.
How will help GF to be immortal(especially in which part?)? In PvE it doesn't have any use, because most time group wipe = dead GF too. And PvE solo = doesn't matter. PvP? Doesn't matter because living don't give any benefit.
Immortal would be great if you could hold 100% of the agro as well, then it would really mean something.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.