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Some words for Devs.
ggyu
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
So I'm here to talk about Neverwinter basic Gameplay Which From my point of view is Pure Pve Game style...
Every Week I see update Which also about Foundry or Dung.....
So Let's talk for real,Online games isn't all about Pve It about Pvp more than pve really,
Why you think people Come to online games ??
Maybe to Face other people and pvp them and have online fun ???
Or maybe about know who is better about this or this by pvp ??
If people want pve Game ,I think they could play Offline games which have no pvp Just pve against Pc Not human
While Online games about Pvp (Player Vs Player) So I think they here to Vs against Human not Pc ? Right ?
So Please Give us some ideas for pvp ,Improve it ,Open wide pvp lands for people....
Give more good reward for Pvp stuff not Just normal stupid purple gear that so weak to be used ,In every online game Pvp gear know as the best between all other gears but here no,
So Please Improve pvp ,You got nice classes ,Graphic ,Races and Real Ability for Combat
So why waste all of that in just pve stuff that can be found in offline games ?
Every Week I see update Which also about Foundry or Dung.....
So Let's talk for real,Online games isn't all about Pve It about Pvp more than pve really,
Why you think people Come to online games ??
Maybe to Face other people and pvp them and have online fun ???
Or maybe about know who is better about this or this by pvp ??
If people want pve Game ,I think they could play Offline games which have no pvp Just pve against Pc Not human
While Online games about Pvp (Player Vs Player) So I think they here to Vs against Human not Pc ? Right ?
So Please Give us some ideas for pvp ,Improve it ,Open wide pvp lands for people....
Give more good reward for Pvp stuff not Just normal stupid purple gear that so weak to be used ,In every online game Pvp gear know as the best between all other gears but here no,
So Please Improve pvp ,You got nice classes ,Graphic ,Races and Real Ability for Combat
So why waste all of that in just pve stuff that can be found in offline games ?
KILLERDDDD
Post edited by ggyu on
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And so you enjoy pure pve game ??
My point is why they care about pve more than pvp by many ways,Why can't they put balance between them ??
So your point is ?? You Like And enjoy 20vs20 and 5vs5 mount race pvp ?? really do you ?
Even the developers have admitted that the PvP playerbase was larger and more adamant then they at first assumed. This is probably largely to blame on their very simple and fun combat system, which no other game out there comes close to. It's like the FPS of RPG's, with more streamlined access to abilities and powers.
As well, PvP content is self-replicating. Do a dungeon, run a mission, max a character ... your done. It has finality. Achieving the top of a leaderboard is a temporary event, due to someone else always fighting to take you off that top. Constant content.
Truth be told, each generation fewer and fewer games are being made to support pure PvE gameplay, because the draw of the PvP and co-op crowd, and very specifically the PvP crowd, is an easy market to tap into and profit off of. MLG and pro-sport have really pulled the stopper out on gamers, showing that games can be fun to watch and competitive, without being for 'nerds'. And I honestly feel that, with this combat system, Neverwinter could easily have an MLG standing.
PvP is no longer a sideline for college brats. It's no longer relegated to the realm of shooters. The two biggest, most profitable and most popular games of the last 30 years are League of Legends and StarCraft.
On an aside: Op, your English is terrible. Very hard to understand, and I'm not saying this to slight you, as I'm sure it's not your first language. Secondly, the game needs more PvP content. As someone who enjoys PvP and this game, more content will just multiply it's lifespan to me.
Almost every PvP balance would have eventually happened in a PvE only game. It just takes longer to come down the pike, due to the team-nature of co-op play. GWF's surviving too long, CW's doing too much damage, TR's being perma-stealthed, GF's having too much CC ... even PvE players notice these things and gripe. The GF is mad at the GWF for tanking with almost no effort, etc, etc. PvP just shines a spotlight on the event faster.
Because I have played co-op PvE-only games. And the calls for nerfs and buffs and adjustments of other classes is still one of the primary topics on the forums.
So while I'm aware, Ordensmarschall, that you resent the PvP playerbase for affecting the PvE side of your game; and while I'll admit that the changes that have happened were largely called for by the PvP crowd that you seem to despise and ridicule on each post you make; I still stand behind the argument that they would have occurred eventually anyway, just in a slower timeframe.
You can either hate and detest and feel jealously for the other side of the playerbase (since the vast majority of us play both PvE and PvP in this game, I'd hazard to bet on) like our poor op here, whenever they get new content and you don't, or you can look at it as if ALL of us get something new and fresh with each update.
New PvP maps and content will improve the game. It will bring back lost players and new players alike. It'll fill dungeon and skirmish queue's faster and revitalize the market. And it'll bring money to Cryptic. This, to me, is a winning scenario.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Sorry for the miss quote lobo0084 but i just put the main points in there as it was a looong post
I definitely can't deny what you say is true and it is an increasing trend in other games which leads me to the conclusion that i am a dying breed as i was led to believe Neverwinter was heavily PvE focused at the point of sale as it were. I guess i should start investing in some single player games then if this is the new norm for mmo's
PvP is honestly a game killer. And no, this is not a shot at PvPers. You guys are fine, and you have a full out clique of your own. But many paid for power ups are aimed at you. I'm thinking of lock boxes especially, but you understand what I mean. And the problem is, the PvP crowd has no real staying power. Again, not an offense to them, but they don't. See, when you're only coming on to fight some other guys, you'll go to whichever game offers it. Furthermore, if you're not doing so well, you're likely to complain (game's lame. Game's pay to win. Game's broken. Ect) and then take your ball and go home.
That's why all the throw away items swamp games these days. They are for you. PWE wants you to drop twenty bucks, win a few fights, then go home. They don't expect you to stick around.
BUT? There's no real money to be made by PvE either. These players are here for RP and for story. They'll go through a dungeon with a stick in hand if they can. They don't need the +5 Holy Avenger, and aren't likely to drop sixty bucks to get it. (Example, btw, don't know if the Holy Avenger's really in game. Yet.)
So then, why is PvP the game killer if PvE isn't paying? Well, because of the popularity of pandering to a group of players that are really getting McDonald-ed out the door, MMOs have begun to build little content. Instead? Lock boxes. A PvPer will play the adventure that's offered, sure, but it doesn't need to be extravegant. They're just as likely to grind slimes anyways since it's only about Lupping enough to beat another player on the boards.
ANYways. That's what I think. A game like Neverwinter is geared towards PvE, and it should be. Dungeons and Dragons was never about beating the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the guy beside you (unless you were playing minis) and considering that the RPers are the target market of a D&D game, Neverwinter should be true to that. Hopefully it stays that way.
I draw as Masamundane.
I'm always in two minds about the PvP thing. On the one hand, while not a PvP fanatic, I do enjoy it, and I do support it being in MMOs. On the other hand, I see balancing games from a PvP point of view as trouble for PvE, specifically for debuffing and CC.
It's often said that PvP reveals balance problems that wouldn't be obvious otherwise, because mobs don't complain, and to some extent I agree with that, particularly when it comes to OP-ness damage-wise. But mobs not complaining is part of the reason you can have some real fun in PvE that you can't in PvP - most specifically with CC and debuffing.
The problem is, real people hate being turned into pussies, and hate having control taken away from them, so when games get balanced around PvP, all the fun you can have in PvE by turning mobs into pussies and CC-ing them from here to Sunday, goes out the window.
IOW, PvP orientation in game balancing is death for CC/debuffing in PvE.
And that, I hate.
I don't know the solution, apart from the obvious one of making abilities behave somewhat differently in PvE from PvP (especially toning down CC and debuffing in a PvP context, or providing sufficient active counters that players can use against strong CC or debuffing). But developers so seldom seem willing to go down that route - presumably because a) it causes another balancing nightmare and loads of extra work, and b) the feedback from PvP-ers becomes less relevant to help balancing PvE.
But ultimately, that's got to be the solution to stop cool tricks from being taken away from PvE-ers, while at the same time keeping PvP dynamic and exciting for real players.
If the only thing your DM brought to the table was creative map layout, I feel for you guys.
Plus, one of the first things I did in DnD was pit my Elf against my friends Fighter, while the DM managed the fight. If there had been more of us, I'm sure we could have managed team versus team. No character died, of course, nor was it considered continuity. It was just for fun.
Since DnD went to pre-scripted dungeons and video game coding. NPC's became more than just expendable characters for a DM. They now mean nothing. Goblins by the thousands, scripted AI sequences. Never a surprise or a unique experience. Best I've seen in story and enticing characters in recent years was Morrowind, and to some extent, Oblivion/Skyrim. Beyond those, the best I've seen with character involvement was actually Halo: Reach. As railroad as it was, I really got into my Spartan.
But even then, PvE in video games is limited. It's a nature of the beast. Nothing you can really do about it without attempting to go the way of Matrix Online under Monolith and hiring actors to play the part of important story character (of which I participated as the character Ruze, on Proxy server). Without the interaction of a human mind, the content itself cannot possibly give the same feel and vibe as what it's based on.
Which is why, in the end, the best that this game can provide is either PvP, or in a far end, Foundry.
Nothing comes closer to the challenge and atmosphere of paper-and-pen DnD than PvP in this game.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
It's only in the last few years that I've come to see that PvP drives games to higher successes. I agree with some that it brings flaws, but micro-transactions started and are the boon of non-pvp games such as Farmville and such. Until they find a was to constantly evolve and shape content as PvP can, they've got a hard row to hoe with such limited scripting.
Good PvE content requires far more work, an amazing amount of ingenuity and drive, and an unspeakable amount of creativity. And as users, that content will be gone through by most of the 'PvE population' (again, including many that do both happily) in less than a months time.
Good PvP content is simply easier, and often provides greater rewards when user interactivity and longevity of subject matter are taken into account.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I see what you're saying, and don't disagree per se. But I think I see it a bit different.
First off, the scripting, NPCs, all of that? Yeah, if your story is being carried by them alone you need some work. You being Devs, obviously. I've actually been surprised at how many NPCs talk to me with actual vocal words to begin with, but yeah, it's not enough to carry it full.
When I look at a PvE game though, the story is only a slight backdrop. You'll find that many of the folks who are supporters of PvE are, like you, role players. Even a casual, half assed group of RPers need little support from the NPCs or the story. It's about the chat from player to player. It's the play between players that makes it work.
And I'll be honest with everyone, that interaction is why PvE on an MMO is much different that just playing a solo game at home. Also, what sort of argument is that? It came up earlier, not from anyone recent, but really? You can say that about any part of an MMO. Like crafting? Why not just play Bejeweled solo. Like PvE? Plug in Final Fantasy. Like PvP? Have you played Street Fighter?
The point of an MMO is to get together with others and play. Some folk like PvP and some don't. I don't, but mostly because I find the 'player interaction' to be little more than a challenge to fight, followed by either "GF" if you lose, or some guy trolling you for an hour with more challenges if you beat him the first time.
But I digress. PvE in an MMO like Neverwinter is about players playing together. The content should be good enough to keep interest, but it doesn't have to be Shakespear to work. In the end, it just has to be good enough to get two to five toons in the door, and they'll take it from there.
I draw as Masamundane.
As I said before, people enjoy PvP, and they should be able to play that if they so desire so I am not advocating it to be eliminated, just keep the two play styles separate, so that each of us can play in the manner we enjoy.
(As an aside, try the Witcher series of PC games for some really good PvE play, blows Skyrim out of the water in the choices/consequences department.)
Exactly this. By trying to balance everything out for the sake of pvp, abilities and damage amounts of various classes are twisted up until it becomes completely unrealistic, just for the sake that for example a cleric can be as dangerous as a 2m high half orc barbarian wielding a 2 hand axe. RPG isnt all about combat, sadly most modern games like this one are created around this subject. A powerful wizard wouldnt even step into the arena, why should he, if he could take out the other team with a wink of his hand?
But the game is meant also for ppl who dont understand what pnp and good story driven rpg is, thats why we have this situation here
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
. . . . . Things that will help PvP however, would be more types of PvP zones like Gauntlegrym as well as more 5v5 and even adding 10vs10 battles. Also, more emphasis on tactics and less dps races.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
However Neverwinter is the first time I have ever enjoyed PvP in an MMO. Ever.
PvPers seem to have this natural tendancy to think that their PoV is the only PoV, though. Every MMO I have played the large majority of my friends refuse to ever PvP under any circumstance. In NW it's no different. Yet this doesn't stop PvPers from somewhow thinking that PvE should be tossed out the window because as far as they can tell they are the world.
The truth is hardcore PvPers make up the smallest minority of players in most every MMO. It varies from MMO to MMO but studies have shown that only 10% of most MMO playerbases are heavy into PvP (almost only log in to PvP). There are varying scales from then on out up to those who never PvP. Oddly enough this number is generally around 30% compared to the generally 10% of players who only PvP.
Obviously if an MMO is designed to be heavy into PvP then PvPers will naturally play the game and PvE players will avoid it. However the average MMO is a PvE game with PvP being just one possible activity. Neverwinter is a PvE MMO.
And yet, somehow, PvPers seem to think everybody and their mothers PvP all the time and that those who don't PvP are the black sheep.
They should instead focus on PVE, fix bugs and bring more content, more dungeons, more quests. guild features, more items...
I have to disagree with those assessments.
If you have ever played League of Legends, which is one of the most popular PvP Games on the market ATM, all of those things exist there.
No argument about needing balance but if anything the largest problem facing Neverwinter's PvP is the matchmaking and power and gear combinations. Stealth not being removed upon attack, regeneration ticking in combat (um, never saw a game that this didn't work), and CC without immunities all exist in League of Legends and most other non-FPS PvP game.
But despite that, I do agree that Neverwitner is not and will not be a PvP-centric game.
Jokes apart, i'm all for some more pvp content, as long as there are some new dungeons constantly added to the game.
You Right ?? Shall i Play shoot game for pvp ?? Why can't i enjoy magic and unique game type MMORPG Example: Forsaken World and Jade dynasty Both got there unique Pvp style and they MMORPG Right ??
I play Neverwinter for it unique Combat style Which depend on dodge,range ,short range and run ,So can't it get MMORPG pvp open wide maps? for Pvpers ?
Fact lol You can't use bugs like dungs
You call 5vs5 or Gauntlegrym Pvp ??
Pfff First :That called race mount really ,Second : I thin kit would be nice if they make open wide maps for open pvp and maybe 10vs10 In wide map too not like closed one for 5vs5 which not fit 10 player at all
Despite that, read your opening post. You got quite defensive that Zeb even hinted he doesn't even want PvP in the game. How do you think he feels reading a post like your opening post which basically belittled his gameplay style?
You may play online games to PvP, that's fine.
But don't confuse why you play with the end all be all reason to play.
For every person who would like additional PvP content there is another who couldn't care less if they took PvP out of the game entirely. If you push your playstyle out on others as the only acceptable course of action then expect defensive responses.
Asking for additional PvP content is one thing. Insulting PvE and claiming a superior opinion is another.
In fact the best way for this discussion to continue would be to take the focus off of how superior PvP is to how you would like additional PvP content.
You said half game ?? What about other half can't they have pvp ?? and even like 10% of game want pvp can't they get what they ask for ?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
. . . . . Wrong. Statistically speaking, most online games are PvE-focused games with a dash of PvP.
. . . . . Myself, I get online and play MMORPGs to socialize with, discuss with, party with, quest with, and dungeon crawl with my friends, family and others in a persistant and ever changing world designed around a fantasy setting that I cherish and enjoy.
. . . . . Nope. If I wanted to do this, I would play a PvP Game, not an RPG.
. . . . . Offline games do not offer persitant, ever changing and updated places to explore, crawl, and delve together with like-minded individuals. They quickly come to a close with little replay value. MMOs on the other hand are ever changing and offer an exponential amount of replay value.
. . . . . Partially wrong, partially correct. Some online games are all about PvP, some are not, some mix both. The data is out there, the proof exists since before even Ultima Online in 1997. I strongly suggest to do a little research on this to gain your own perspective.
. . . . . How about you give some of your own ideas?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Actually, I have seen this trend change drastically in the last ten years. Used to be, most online games were PvE-focused. Now, most online games have a very strong, if not dominating, PvP-centric theme. League of Legends, World of Tanks, Star Wars The Old Republic, Warhammer Online, EvE Online (my personal favorite MMORPG out there), Guild Wars, Lineage, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online (before they separated PvP out of the mix and killed it), Star Wars Galaxies (before the Jedi versus BH factor was removed and killed it) ...
It's not that PVE wasn't also big in these games. It's that you could argue from the early stages of development, in which I beta'd most, that developers had PvP on their mind and in their plans.
I would argue, though, that PvP was not on the developers minds here in NWO. And I think they are realizing quite quickly that maybe it should have been. The combat system of DnD supports PvP well, because of exactly the same reason it thrives in PvE: group-focused content from classes that vary greatly.
That's one of the reasons I play MMO's too. To party with others, make friends, do content. My content simply extends to PvP, Realm vs Realm, Gauntlegrym (which I love and play, and if you stop racing horses and actually involve teamwork holding positions and using strategy, changes the enjoyment factor drastically). I also love Neverwinters' IP, being an avid fan of the books and reading through the whole string of them again (on Siege of Darkness).
So I'm right there with you on why I play MMO's, I just don't exclude PvP from that list.
I have played PvP games. I have argued to keep PvP games as PvP games. The longest game I've ever played is PvP centric, first and foremost, EvE online.
As well, I define PvP as more than just combat. Players can compete and fight and argue over who got the most kills, who sold the most on the auction house, or who looted the mob first, etc, etc. Player competition is rife in MMO's.
I have also argued there, and almost everywhere else, that despite what the fringes of the playerbase say, it doesn't have to be either/or. A great game can include great elements of both. The jealousy debates in these games, from both sides, that if you feed the one hand the other hand will quit? Childishness, plain and simple. Both sides benefit.
Agreed 100%. Planetside and EvE online being two games I think of first and foremost when you think of a single, persistent world that requires the utmost of teamwork and exploration. Replay in MMO's, in general, is far higher than a single storyline like Elder Scrolls can generate.
Listed many earlier. I'd really argue, however, that you almost can't have an MMORPG without a base element of PvE. The character progression system really comes into play there.
Agreed. Op should present arguments to stand on, instead of simply asking for the change. Though the ideas are present here on the forums. From queue's to help break down players into more even and fair gear-ladders (since I think skill is too hard to quantify in this game), to game-mode options, to involving guild vs guild and character progression further in the mix. The options are there, and the Ops original claim that PvP needs love too is still very valid in my opinion, even if he seems to be saying that the game should focus on PvP, which I don't necessarily agree.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters