i never mention exploit run, i said legal speed run and shortcut, if you havent notice exploit are being patch, but not the shortcut. LOL.
So to you out there, it is there to stay and it is legal, if it is exploit it will be patch, if it is not patch it is LEGAL.
I hear what you are saying but it's been my experience that when people are spamming LFG for "speed runs" they mean they want people experienced in exploiting the bugs in the dungeon. Best run I've had was with a group specifically stating in LFG that it was a non exploit/speed run.
BS. Speed running/stealthing to the next campfire is fine. Using unintentional cracks in the architecture (e.g. running under the bridge in Fardelver's which is now fixed) is an exploit for which people should be first warned then banned for using.
There is an unfortunate point here.
What you may be up against may not be a rules violation or an exploitation but a cultural divide that finds yourself on one far distant side and a possibly majority of others used to instant results and short attention span rewards. As evidence I offer the word “failboating”.
The methods of beating a mob and layout with powers and tools provided in the game itself being used as intended is… intended. And players are a crafty lot. Sure enough, this crew has managed to find a way to microwave dungeon rewards out in a few minutes or less.
To a group that uses the phrase “This is not WoW” yet strives for the most genericly speedy and tastelessly bland set of preprogramed moves to a chest; what would you say to someone who said “I like dungeons but I want them to be easier and faster with less danger and more predictable”? Would you tell them that this is not WoW?
Dear OP, you may not be striving against a current of instant gratification. You may be wading into a sea of “faster, smaller, better” and it will only get deeper.
If you have taken umbrage at the idea that you should find others who share your views. I offer that you should reconsider. The age of the couple button mmo has slid past us and Neverwinter is likely the best flash game some people have ever seen. Seek out your own, the gamer who plays the game rather than the gamer who games it.
^^ agree with OP.
Some dungeons have more than a few 'short' cuts and if you are in a pug unless everybody knows them all it can lead into dissaster very easily.
I have been away for a while (deliberatly) i recently decided to play again and see how the game is these days, i see a few of the dungeons have had invisable walls implementeed, which imo is good. Like i say before unless everybody is fully aware of all the shortcuts, using them can somtimmes be bad, i have found most of the time it is quicker and easier to just run dungeons as they are suposed to be run, especialy in a pug, there is less chance of error, everybody is going the same route etc.
Some 'shortcuts' are fine by me, like 'sqeezing' past some mob packs to save time killing them is fine by me. but climbing up around the terrain and rock faces somtimes takes longer than doing the run 'normaly' especialy with new people to the dungeon, you spend more time explaining were to go, were to jump, etc than it would of taken to have just killed the mobs you are tring to avoid.
Point in case, before i left for a break, doing the T1 gaunt dungeon. at least every one i s seemed to join, always involved a rock climb at the start followed by the run through the water and 9 times out of 10 there was always some one who did not know were the group had gone, so people had to run back or explain in chat etc etc,
Since i came back, i now see there are some invisable walls and tonight i did 3 runs during Gaunt in the t1 dungeon, and we just ran it as 'normal' and i must say it was far far easier than all the rock climbing and waiting for people etc etc which was the way i remember people running it, we cleared it in no time without 1 single problem. So from my own observations i can seay definatly it was 100% easier now to run it 'normaly' than it ever was to rock climb through it.
If all dungeons were 'fixed' with no rock climbing etc imo they would all be alot easier especialy for pugs, and have a bigger chance of success, But i do understand some take ages to get through the 100' and 100's of mobs along the way, all the trash mobs are a waste of time, all they do is slow the run down with no rewards at all for killing them, this to me is the biggest problem, and imo random trash should drop a odd purlple piece or decnet enchants, even some weapon or armour shards to actualy make the time involved in killing them actually worth while, at the moment they just dont serve any purpose what so ever except to make the dungeon last twice as long as it should do.
In months I have never seen any pug group or LFG group agree to a "greed" run upfront. This is just a lousy excuse to behave like a greedy child.
However yesterday I did join a LFG group that actually stated upfront that it was a non exploit run. Guildies laughed and said we'd never finish especially since no one was more than 10K (this was SP). 90 minutes later we had the satisfaction of completing SP with no exploits with 2 groupies that had no SP experience at all. We took our time on each boss and only had one wipe between the three. Have to say it was the most rewarding dungeon experience to date.
Lol Spell has only 1 short-cut and it makes an already simple 2nd boss just a little simpler. Try that with a 10k average GS party in Karru and you can spend an hour+ in there crying while every other group clears it in 20 minutes or less. Same with FH, you just happened to run the dungeon that doesn't really have exploits lol...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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bladerunner2000Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 21Arc User
Lol Spell has only 1 short-cut and it makes an already simple 2nd boss just a little simpler. Try that with a 10k average GS party in Karru and you can spend an hour+ in there crying while every other group clears it in 20 minutes or less. Same with FH, you just happened to run the dungeon that doesn't really have exploits lol...
So what are you saying? If you only have a 10K group you should exploit Karr because it's quicker?
Also, I been in a number of SP PUGs that were totally fixated on bugging out the 1st two bosses to pull them through the invisible entry barrier without their supporting mobs which is also an exploit.
I tried Karru yesterday AGAIN and guess what: Failed again - like any other Karru match I played lately with pugs. Why? No not because the pug was bad (it was quite good and fast), but because of the fact that every time I run Karru someone will run at a certain point of the map through lots of hard hitting mobs until he dies somewhere to spawn at a next campfire. And EVERY TIME people are left behind during this "shortcut". Then people try to gather with the party again but of course have no chance since they spawn somewhere back and the whole way is blocked by mobs. Then you either wait 10 minutes until people finally give up trying to meet with the party or just quit rightaway.
This so called "shortcut" is the reason I could not finish Karru for weeks. It is not shortcutting anything. In contrary, it ruins the party, it makes you lose the progress. Even in teams that just rip through mobs and that might take like 10 minutes to fight their way through this step they start to use this shortcut and in the end the whole party fails because of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Seriously: Anyone who wants to shortcut and exploit a whole dungeon should NOT queue for pug games. Join parties in lfg chat that clearly say "speed runs" or "looking for VERY xped players" - then you know what you can expect but leave pugs free from ruining the whole dungeon. I waste my time to do a dungeon in DD times only to see that I have to quit it again and again because of some morons that want to save 5-10 minutes of time!
And if you tell those people that the whole party was ruined because of them they tell you back that "this is the way the dungeon is normally done" or "just bring more kits" or other silly things. You can skip some mobs that don't really stand in your way - I am fine with that -maybe you can even bug one boss here and then (as I said: Spider is just way to complicated at the moment - Devs should finally fix them so you have a challenge and fun beating them normally) but doing a dungeon run to basically only skip anything just makes me sick lately.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There are some guilds that does dungeon runs without exploiting. The ones I know of is <Future> on the Dragon shard and Umbra Lunae on the Mindflayer shard.
Thanks for the mention.
Don't want to quote every single person on this thread, but like I have said before: Cheaters will always be weak players. The reason they shortcut/cheat/etc is because they are simply not good enough to do the content. This game is progressing away from that nonsense and hopefully in the future the exploits will not only be fixed but will be moderated.
Don't want to quote every single person on this thread, but like I have said before: Cheaters will always be weak players. The reason they shortcut/cheat/etc is because they are simply not good enough to do the content. This game is progressing away from that nonsense and hopefully in the future the exploits will not only be fixed but will be moderated.
Oh how i wish for it to happen. I also think, this game needs realtime GM support and activity.
Don't want to quote every single person on this thread, but like I have said before: Cheaters will always be weak players. The reason they shortcut/cheat/etc is because they are simply not good enough to do the content. This game is progressing away from that nonsense and hopefully in the future the exploits will not only be fixed but will be moderated.
So doing shortcut based on the design of the map is now cheating LOL, and who are you calling cheaters and weak players you who are exploiting the Skill Animation. lmao.
So doing shortcut based on the design of the map is now cheating LOL, and who are you calling cheaters and weak players you who are exploiting the Skill Animation. lmao.
what you do is not doing shortcuts based on any design but shortcuts that were not considered to be used by the design at all. that is something different. what you say is that everything is allowed what is not forbidden. but that would mean on the other hand that development would have to consider any little loophole in the game. that would mean development costs and testing would sky rocket.
how about you just play a game how it was considered to be played? you can also play soccer by taking the ball into the hands unless the referee is watching. still that would mean you are not playing the game how it was meant to be played and yet when playing soccer the arms of the players are not tied onto their back to prevent them from abusing this tactic.
what you do is not doing shortcuts based on any design but shortcuts that were not considered to be used by the design at all. that is something different. what you say is that everything is allowed what is not forbidden. but that would mean on the other hand that development would have to consider any little loophole in the game. that would mean development costs and testing would sky rocket.
how about you just play a game how it was considered to be played? you can also play soccer by taking the ball into the hands unless the referee is watching. still that would mean you are not playing the game how it was meant to be played and yet when playing soccer the arms of the players are not tied onto their back to prevent them from abusing this tactic.
How do you know how the game should be played? how you talk to the developer? did they reply to you on how the map should be play? I agree on one thing here exploit are exploit and should be patch, but shortcut and speedrun it is currently legal. All exploit or you think is exploit should be reported, if it is patch, then good that features is exploit, but after months and months of compaining and filing tickets and the feature is still there then stick it into your brain that it is LEGAL.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Don't want to quote every single person on this thread, but like I have said before: Cheaters will always be weak players. The reason they shortcut/cheat/etc is because they are simply not good enough to do the content. This game is progressing away from that nonsense and hopefully in the future the exploits will not only be fixed but will be moderated.
This is simply UNTRUE. I've met a lot of very skilled players that shortcut DDs each and every time. It shows on the fights that cannot be exploited, such as final SP boss, CN (bugging wizards, yes, nobody does it different) or MC last bosses. I like both legit and shortcut runs and I'm fine with either, and I understand both sides of the argument. It's very nice to kill the mobs and it's also nice to skip them and do the content very fast. People will always choose the path of least resistance to the gratification. It's up to the devs to fix stuff and block cheating and make trash rewarding enough so there's a reason to kill it. Because when there's a fast way to do things for more rewards, why would one not choose it? It's like somebody asking me not to use Ice Knife in PvP because it's OP and I should "challenge myself", or a TR not to use Impact Shots or Lashing Blade because it's ezy mode and he should "challenge himself". Seen these in the forums quite a few times. It's just dumb.
So doing shortcut based on the design of the map is now cheating LOL, and who are you calling cheaters and weak players you who are exploiting the Skill Animation. lmao.
A bit of common sense will answer what is intended and what isn't, that and watching the fixes that turn up in the patch notes.
Anything that takes out outside the map isn't intended, the devs have attempted to prevent campfire runs which means they aren't intended.
How do you know how the game should be played? how you talk to the developer? did they reply to you on how the map should be play? I agree on one thing here exploit are exploit and should be patch, but shortcut and speedrun it is currently legal. All exploit or you think is exploit should be reported, if it is patch, then good that features is exploit, but after months and months of compaining and filing tickets and the feature is still there then stick it into your brain that it is LEGAL.
So because you can steal a chocolate bar every day for months without being caught because a store doesn't have adequate security means that when you are caught you can't be arrested or charged for theft?
Get real, the devs have commented that these are exploits and that they are working on fixing them, the only reason no ones been punished is because they know that banning 99% of their level 60 playerbase will destroy the game.
A bit of common sense will answer what is intended and what isn't, that and watching the fixes that turn up in the patch notes.
Anything that takes out outside the map isn't intended, the devs have attempted to prevent campfire runs which means they aren't intended.
So because you can steal a chocolate bar every day for months without being caught because a store doesn't have adequate security means that when you are caught you can't be arrested or charged for theft?
Get real, the devs have commented that these are exploits and that they are working on fixing them, the only reason no ones been punished is because they know that banning 99% of their level 60 playerbase will destroy the game.
Pls. show us the link where the developer says speedrun and shortcut is exploit, come show us, the obvious exploit are being patch, like the CN statue (obviously) boss glitching (yes that would be exploit) but they never ever mention bypassing mobs by running past all mobs with the intention of gathering them all in one place before killing them, of course it so happen the spawn is nearby and they can't kill all the mobs and they get wipe and they spawn on the nearest camp fire, and the map design where there is a small path going to another map this can be solve by simple invisible wall, but NO, it was kept there for a long time, WHY, because it is an integral part of the MAP. LOL
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited September 2013
The design of the areas provides plenty of opportunities to bypass mobs or push them off ledges and so on - that's fine - no way you can argue that is an exploit in any sense. What I do have a problem with are things like suiciding, in order to skip to a fireplace way ahead of where you "deserve" to be. I personally refuse to participate in such nonsense.
Hoping for improvements...
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
Pls. show us the link where the developer says speedrun and shortcut is exploit, come show us, the obvious exploit are being patch ..................................................................................................................................
and the map design where there is a small path going to another map this can be solve by simple invisible wall, but NO, it was kept there for a long time, WHY, because it is an integral part of the MAP. LOL
Are you serious? So, an integral part of the map is you killing yourself to skipping all the fights? Why did they put those mobs there and set up terrain and scenery if they didn't want you to take that path and fight those mobs? You think they want you to go to parts of the map where they didn't set up any scenery and encounter? How does that make any sense?
I will take shortcut's if the rest of the party wants to, but I don't particularly like that because it takes the fun out of the game. It's an Action-RPG, I came here to kill things, not run a marathon. I understand why some of you like to take advantage of shortcuts or AI flaws - it's an easier way to get the loot, I get it. If that the way you like to play the game, that's your business, but don't come here and say that the developers meant it that way, because that is obvious bs. By that logic the sorting in the AH is not meant to sort and the Queue system is not meant to form parties for dungeons because they are not fixing those either. If they fixed shortcuts in the past (look through the patch notes if you wanna verify that, I promise you it's there), I'm pretty darn sure they don't want you to take shortcuts.
It's funny how people will find all sorts of bs excuses for why it's ok to exploit the game's flaws, but will come crying and asking for "fixes" because they can't face the fact that someone kick their buts in PvP
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So doing shortcut based on the design of the map is now cheating LOL, and who are you calling cheaters and weak players you who are exploiting the Skill Animation. lmao.
Skill Animation exploiting? Nowhere on any forums have I said a thing about doing any such thing -- nor do I participate in that behavior.
There is no such thing as a design on the map for a shortcut. Running to campfires is not how the game was designed either.
This is simply UNTRUE. I've met a lot of very skilled players that shortcut DDs each and every time. It shows on the fights that cannot be exploited, such as final SP boss, CN (bugging wizards, yes, nobody does it different) or MC last bosses. I like both legit and shortcut runs and I'm fine with either, and I understand both sides of the argument. It's very nice to kill the mobs and it's also nice to skip them and do the content very fast. People will always choose the path of least resistance to the gratification. It's up to the devs to fix stuff and block cheating and make trash rewarding enough so there's a reason to kill it. Because when there's a fast way to do things for more rewards, why would one not choose it? It's like somebody asking me not to use Ice Knife in PvP because it's OP and I should "challenge myself", or a TR not to use Impact Shots or Lashing Blade because it's ezy mode and he should "challenge himself". Seen these in the forums quite a few times. It's just dumb.
You may have met some skilled cheaters, but the majority (95%) are bad players. There is no high end legit player that I know of that would bother cheating because they don't have to -- They are too good for that. That's the difference.
The design of the areas provides plenty of opportunities to bypass mobs or push them off ledges and so on - that's fine - no way you can argue that is an exploit in any sense. What I do have a problem with are things like suiciding, in order to skip to a fireplace way ahead of where you "deserve" to be. I personally refuse to participate in such nonsense.
Pushing off mobs is fine, who cares. It's slow compared to the way we do it (we will push off a few here and there), but you are right the suicide runs are plain cheating.
You can tell the way MC was designed that they are getting away from the dumping mobs off the edge.
Skill Animation exploiting? Nowhere on any forums have I said a thing about doing any such thing -- nor do I participate in that behavior.
There is no such thing as a design on the map for a shortcut. Running to campfires is not how the game was designed either.
Actually that's exactly how the game was designed, because when you run to the campfire and die you respawn there. Everyone that values their time is going to do things the fastest way possible, and since respawning at the next fire if you are close to is in the game design they take advantage of that.
Pushing off mobs is fine, who cares. It's slow compared to the way we do it (we will push off a few here and there), but you are right the suicide runs are plain cheating.
You can tell the way MC was designed that they are getting away from the dumping mobs off the edge.
Are you singing the trollolol song right now? "Instantly killing entire groups is way slower than DPS'ing it all down with a GWF cause we're so pro" uh huh. Even if you instantly killed everything you attacked (which is quite far from the truth) you couldn't kill 20 mobs faster than a CW pushing b/c of your 5 target cap. You would be killing your 3rd set of 5 while CW had popped his 20 off and was ready for the next pull.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually that's exactly how the game was designed, because when you run to the campfire and die you respawn there. Everyone that values their time is going to do things the fastest way possible, and since respawning at the next fire if you are close to is in the game design they take advantage of that.
Are you singing the trollolol song right now? "Instantly killing entire groups is way slower than DPS'ing it all down with a GWF cause we're so pro" uh huh. Even if you instantly killed everything you attacked (which is quite far from the truth) you couldn't kill 20 mobs faster than a CW pushing b/c of your 5 target cap. You would be killing your 3rd set of 5 while CW had popped his 20 off and was ready for the next pull.
Well the game isn't designed to purposely die by the campfires. It is an exploit and it needs to be fixed. If they wanted you to do that they wouldn't have trash (or even objectives like in MC).
5 Target Cap shows you how much you don't know about GWF. When you combine unstoppable + lightning proc + mass AOE damage mowing things down, and this is just me. Not to mention other classes (including the best CW on the server Blackthorn), we melt everything. Name one 20 mob trash pull in this game. Unless you are aggroing half the map to run it to an edge, which again is slow. But if you want to dump off the edge, go for it. You already sneak to the campfires, what is the point.
Well the game isn't designed to purposely die by the campfires. It is an exploit and it needs to be fixed. If they wanted you to do that they wouldn't have trash (or even objectives like in MC).
5 Target Cap shows you how much you don't know about GWF. When you combine unstoppable + lightning proc + mass AOE damage mowing things down, and this is just me. Not to mention other classes (including the best CW on the server Blackthorn), we melt everything. Name one 20 mob trash pull in this game. Unless you are aggroing half the map to run it to an edge, which again is slow. But if you want to dump off the edge, go for it. You already sneak to the campfires, what is the point.
Yes I do know that lightning is awesome for AoE threat, however the damage is around 180, and even if it procs both times that's 540 damage. Now if it procced both times on all 5 mobs thats 2.5k which is quite nice but it doesn't happen like that every swing, it is amazing for threat but it's not like lightning makes up for only being able to hit 5 things.
On my CW I can hit unlimited targets with icy terrain and proc lightning on every single tick of it lol (it's hilarious looking and the sceen is absolutely filled with numbers)
30 of those little mobs in Karru x 7 ticks of icy terrain = 210 shocks x 3 jumps = 630 lightning procs in 7 seconds lol. that's 113k damage in 7 seconds LOL
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes I do know that lightning is awesome for AoE threat, however the damage is around 180, and even if it procs both times that's 540 damage. Now if it procced both times on all 5 mobs thats 2.5k which is quite nice but it doesn't happen like that every swing, it is amazing for threat but it's not like lightning makes up for only being able to hit 5 things.
On my CW I can hit unlimited targets with icy terrain and proc lightning on every single tick of it lol (it's hilarious looking and the sceen is absolutely filled with numbers)
30 of those little mobs in Karru x 7 ticks of icy terrain = 210 shocks x 3 jumps = 630 lightning procs in 7 seconds lol. that's 113k damage in 7 seconds LOL
180 damage? Far from it. Anyways, if you are doing 113k damage in 7 seconds why bother cliff tossing?
Like people have already suggested , join a guild but before joining make sure that you ask them if they are into full runs , non glitching / exploiting etc etc , I know the feeling myself , I prefer to do full runs , I'm not into doing as many runs as possible in the DD hour , I want to see the whole dungeon , other players get bored playing like this and that is their right , afterall this is a game and people can play it the way they most enjoy.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
The fact that you think GWF aoe dps is meaningful speaks volumes. lol you have the best cw on the server? if your gwf dps is even remotely comparable to his then clearly this is not the case. The only way gwf dps even registers is if the cw's are sacrificing their dps (and the rest of the groups) by using sing instead of OF and limiting the use of shard, so that mobs are constantly stacked on top of one another for gwf to take advantage. If the CW gives up millions of damage so that the GWF can do a few hundred thousand more every pull then yeah, kill enough mobs and eventually GWF top dps (or competitive for it).
Yes CWs are very broken right now which is why this is the case, however ignoring this and playing like they are not invalidates everything your saying about how quickly you clear things or about how leet your gwf/cws are. We are not responsible for the feywild patch or the shift in content focus that came with it (as you point out, malabogs) which instead of helping GWFs, further overpowered CWs. It's not our fault that the best group makeup right now is 5 CWs, or if the CWs are lazy, 4CWs and a DC, or if the dungeon includes a significant speed element involving a stealth skip, 4 CWs and a TR. Take it down to lfg pug level and 1 TR, 1 DC, 3 CW. If fulminorax dropped a guaranteed purple instead of 34 silver for the effort invested in killing him then you'd see the gwf added to the mandatory list for MC, and people actually running 3/3. But since he doesn't, you're not. The fact that you think lightning > vorpal for anything other than an frost spec'd cw is kinda heh as well.
I agree that a large number of players that use short cuts only do so because that's all they know. I also agree that a staggering large number of players are simply bad. But to say all or even 95% of the ones who shortcut are weak or bad players is bs. That staggering large number of players who are bad? That includes short cutters and "legit" style all the same. A lot of players are bad, period.
We can clear everything "legit" burning down everything leeroy style clearing dungeons in <20min because we're good, geared, and have done it a million times. But outside of guild/friend runs, add a few pugs from lfg and it's just easier to take what shortcuts are readily available and hard for newbs to #%! up doing.
Like people have already suggested , join a guild but before joining make sure that you ask them if they are into full runs , non glitching / exploiting etc etc , I know the feeling myself , I prefer to do full runs , I'm not into doing as many runs as possible in the DD hour , I want to see the whole dungeon , other players get bored playing like this and that is their right , afterall this is a game and people can play it the way they most enjoy.
Lol no this is a game you have to play the way the developers chose for you. That's why they are fixing exploits. I agree they are doing it at snail pace but it's being done, and more holes get fixed patch after patch. I think sending recodings of these "shortcuts" is more efficient than moaning on the forums though, so that's what i do. I've sent so many bug reports that i think you can thank me for a couple of fixes i guess.
I've been working on karrundax recently, my next target will be spellplague. Some exploits are hard to report if you're not a TR (which is the cheater's class) but it's doable with some practice.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited September 2013
It is human nature to get the MOST reward with LEAST amount of work possible. That is true in life and that is true in game. There ARE exception that people will do it the "right" way, but what is the right way?
The current mechanics (or lack there of) allows these thing to be done. The devs could have easily made it such a way that you have to kill EACH boss before the next boss spawn (similar to the Foundry) That way no exploitation. They could have easily wall off the ares where you can "knock off mobs" but these mechanics are in place so who is to say it is not "legal"?
People will usually try to maximized their time (especially game time) If given a choice that you can sit around and do nothing earning $20, or digging a ditch for 8 hours and earn $20. what would you do? (some people do choose digging ditches vs doing nothing for various of reasons)
It is human nature to get the MOST reward with LEAST amount of work possible. That is true in life and that is true in game. There ARE exception that people will do it the "right" way, but what is the right way?
The current mechanics (or lack there of) allows these thing to be done. The devs could have easily made it such a way that you have to kill EACH boss before the next boss spawn (similar to the Foundry) That way no exploitation. They could have easily wall off the ares where you can "knock off mobs" but these mechanics are in place so who is to say it is not "legal"?
People will usually try to maximized their time (especially game time) If given a choice that you can sit around and do nothing earning $20, or digging a ditch for 8 hours and earn $20. what would you do? (some people do choose digging ditches vs doing nothing for various of reasons)
And that's human nature to have overweighted people sitting in their couch watching TV all day as soon as they have enough money to do it, if you really want a RL comparison, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
There are many motives to be willing to play the right way. I enjoy myself being the best player i can, and i think i'm really good now since i don't skip any fight. I also like playing with different players whenever it's possible. So i want to see exploits fixed to be able to see how different parties play the game. I also want exploits fixed to be able to earn a healthy amount of ADs with legit playing, which is what i enjoy doing.
As long as the game developers want people to play my way and fix exploits it's the right way, and yes i'll do what i can to help them to force everyone to play my way.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
And that's human nature to have overweighted people sitting in their couch watching TV all day as soon as they have enough money to do it, if you really want a RL comparison, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
There are many motives to be willing to play the right way. I enjoy myself being the best player i can, and i think i'm really good now since i don't skip any fight. I also like playing with different players whenever it's possible. So i want to see exploits fixed to be able to see how different parties play the game. I also want exploits fixed to be able to earn a healthy amount of ADs with legit playing, which is what i enjoy doing.
As long as the game developers want people to play my way and fix exploits it's the right way, and yes i'll do what i can to help them to force everyone to play my way.
True, but given the nature of humans, you either have to make it "hard" for people to do it the right way or people WILL choose the easiest way possible (when they can)
Can everyone be rich? sure! for some it takes a lot of work (school, jobs, business, and luck) or REALLY luck like winning to Lotto (which proves my point that people willing to invest some to hope to make it big. Gambling is in the blood for some)
If the devs want people to run the Dungeon "Legit" (per original post) then they CAN fix it by doing it similar to Foundry. They could even have "locked" gate that cannot be pass until previous boss is taken down etc etc. As long the shortcut mechanics exist in the game, people will use it. Notice that some exploits/bugs (like nightmare boxes fiasco) was fix REALLY fast (because it cost them money) and some are not.
I am not saying doing a total dungeon creation, I'm suggesting using the CURRENT tools to fix it (again I'm using the Foundry as an example)
Comments
I hear what you are saying but it's been my experience that when people are spamming LFG for "speed runs" they mean they want people experienced in exploiting the bugs in the dungeon. Best run I've had was with a group specifically stating in LFG that it was a non exploit/speed run.
What you may be up against may not be a rules violation or an exploitation but a cultural divide that finds yourself on one far distant side and a possibly majority of others used to instant results and short attention span rewards. As evidence I offer the word “failboating”.
The methods of beating a mob and layout with powers and tools provided in the game itself being used as intended is… intended. And players are a crafty lot. Sure enough, this crew has managed to find a way to microwave dungeon rewards out in a few minutes or less.
To a group that uses the phrase “This is not WoW” yet strives for the most genericly speedy and tastelessly bland set of preprogramed moves to a chest; what would you say to someone who said “I like dungeons but I want them to be easier and faster with less danger and more predictable”? Would you tell them that this is not WoW?
Dear OP, you may not be striving against a current of instant gratification. You may be wading into a sea of “faster, smaller, better” and it will only get deeper.
If you have taken umbrage at the idea that you should find others who share your views. I offer that you should reconsider. The age of the couple button mmo has slid past us and Neverwinter is likely the best flash game some people have ever seen. Seek out your own, the gamer who plays the game rather than the gamer who games it.
Some dungeons have more than a few 'short' cuts and if you are in a pug unless everybody knows them all it can lead into dissaster very easily.
I have been away for a while (deliberatly) i recently decided to play again and see how the game is these days, i see a few of the dungeons have had invisable walls implementeed, which imo is good. Like i say before unless everybody is fully aware of all the shortcuts, using them can somtimmes be bad, i have found most of the time it is quicker and easier to just run dungeons as they are suposed to be run, especialy in a pug, there is less chance of error, everybody is going the same route etc.
Some 'shortcuts' are fine by me, like 'sqeezing' past some mob packs to save time killing them is fine by me. but climbing up around the terrain and rock faces somtimes takes longer than doing the run 'normaly' especialy with new people to the dungeon, you spend more time explaining were to go, were to jump, etc than it would of taken to have just killed the mobs you are tring to avoid.
Point in case, before i left for a break, doing the T1 gaunt dungeon. at least every one i s seemed to join, always involved a rock climb at the start followed by the run through the water and 9 times out of 10 there was always some one who did not know were the group had gone, so people had to run back or explain in chat etc etc,
Since i came back, i now see there are some invisable walls and tonight i did 3 runs during Gaunt in the t1 dungeon, and we just ran it as 'normal' and i must say it was far far easier than all the rock climbing and waiting for people etc etc which was the way i remember people running it, we cleared it in no time without 1 single problem. So from my own observations i can seay definatly it was 100% easier now to run it 'normaly' than it ever was to rock climb through it.
If all dungeons were 'fixed' with no rock climbing etc imo they would all be alot easier especialy for pugs, and have a bigger chance of success, But i do understand some take ages to get through the 100' and 100's of mobs along the way, all the trash mobs are a waste of time, all they do is slow the run down with no rewards at all for killing them, this to me is the biggest problem, and imo random trash should drop a odd purlple piece or decnet enchants, even some weapon or armour shards to actualy make the time involved in killing them actually worth while, at the moment they just dont serve any purpose what so ever except to make the dungeon last twice as long as it should do.
Lol Spell has only 1 short-cut and it makes an already simple 2nd boss just a little simpler. Try that with a 10k average GS party in Karru and you can spend an hour+ in there crying while every other group clears it in 20 minutes or less. Same with FH, you just happened to run the dungeon that doesn't really have exploits lol...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
So what are you saying? If you only have a 10K group you should exploit Karr because it's quicker?
Also, I been in a number of SP PUGs that were totally fixated on bugging out the 1st two bosses to pull them through the invisible entry barrier without their supporting mobs which is also an exploit.
This so called "shortcut" is the reason I could not finish Karru for weeks. It is not shortcutting anything. In contrary, it ruins the party, it makes you lose the progress. Even in teams that just rip through mobs and that might take like 10 minutes to fight their way through this step they start to use this shortcut and in the end the whole party fails because of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Seriously: Anyone who wants to shortcut and exploit a whole dungeon should NOT queue for pug games. Join parties in lfg chat that clearly say "speed runs" or "looking for VERY xped players" - then you know what you can expect but leave pugs free from ruining the whole dungeon. I waste my time to do a dungeon in DD times only to see that I have to quit it again and again because of some morons that want to save 5-10 minutes of time!
And if you tell those people that the whole party was ruined because of them they tell you back that "this is the way the dungeon is normally done" or "just bring more kits" or other silly things. You can skip some mobs that don't really stand in your way - I am fine with that -maybe you can even bug one boss here and then (as I said: Spider is just way to complicated at the moment - Devs should finally fix them so you have a challenge and fun beating them normally) but doing a dungeon run to basically only skip anything just makes me sick lately.
Thanks for the mention.
Don't want to quote every single person on this thread, but like I have said before: Cheaters will always be weak players. The reason they shortcut/cheat/etc is because they are simply not good enough to do the content. This game is progressing away from that nonsense and hopefully in the future the exploits will not only be fixed but will be moderated.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Oh how i wish for it to happen. I also think, this game needs realtime GM support and activity.
So doing shortcut based on the design of the map is now cheating LOL, and who are you calling cheaters and weak players you who are exploiting the Skill Animation. lmao.
what you do is not doing shortcuts based on any design but shortcuts that were not considered to be used by the design at all. that is something different. what you say is that everything is allowed what is not forbidden. but that would mean on the other hand that development would have to consider any little loophole in the game. that would mean development costs and testing would sky rocket.
how about you just play a game how it was considered to be played? you can also play soccer by taking the ball into the hands unless the referee is watching. still that would mean you are not playing the game how it was meant to be played and yet when playing soccer the arms of the players are not tied onto their back to prevent them from abusing this tactic.
How do you know how the game should be played? how you talk to the developer? did they reply to you on how the map should be play? I agree on one thing here exploit are exploit and should be patch, but shortcut and speedrun it is currently legal. All exploit or you think is exploit should be reported, if it is patch, then good that features is exploit, but after months and months of compaining and filing tickets and the feature is still there then stick it into your brain that it is LEGAL.
This is simply UNTRUE. I've met a lot of very skilled players that shortcut DDs each and every time. It shows on the fights that cannot be exploited, such as final SP boss, CN (bugging wizards, yes, nobody does it different) or MC last bosses. I like both legit and shortcut runs and I'm fine with either, and I understand both sides of the argument. It's very nice to kill the mobs and it's also nice to skip them and do the content very fast. People will always choose the path of least resistance to the gratification. It's up to the devs to fix stuff and block cheating and make trash rewarding enough so there's a reason to kill it. Because when there's a fast way to do things for more rewards, why would one not choose it? It's like somebody asking me not to use Ice Knife in PvP because it's OP and I should "challenge myself", or a TR not to use Impact Shots or Lashing Blade because it's ezy mode and he should "challenge himself". Seen these in the forums quite a few times. It's just dumb.
A bit of common sense will answer what is intended and what isn't, that and watching the fixes that turn up in the patch notes.
Anything that takes out outside the map isn't intended, the devs have attempted to prevent campfire runs which means they aren't intended.
So because you can steal a chocolate bar every day for months without being caught because a store doesn't have adequate security means that when you are caught you can't be arrested or charged for theft?
Get real, the devs have commented that these are exploits and that they are working on fixing them, the only reason no ones been punished is because they know that banning 99% of their level 60 playerbase will destroy the game.
Pls. show us the link where the developer says speedrun and shortcut is exploit, come show us, the obvious exploit are being patch, like the CN statue (obviously) boss glitching (yes that would be exploit) but they never ever mention bypassing mobs by running past all mobs with the intention of gathering them all in one place before killing them, of course it so happen the spawn is nearby and they can't kill all the mobs and they get wipe and they spawn on the nearest camp fire, and the map design where there is a small path going to another map this can be solve by simple invisible wall, but NO, it was kept there for a long time, WHY, because it is an integral part of the MAP. LOL
Are you serious? So, an integral part of the map is you killing yourself to skipping all the fights? Why did they put those mobs there and set up terrain and scenery if they didn't want you to take that path and fight those mobs? You think they want you to go to parts of the map where they didn't set up any scenery and encounter? How does that make any sense?
I will take shortcut's if the rest of the party wants to, but I don't particularly like that because it takes the fun out of the game. It's an Action-RPG, I came here to kill things, not run a marathon. I understand why some of you like to take advantage of shortcuts or AI flaws - it's an easier way to get the loot, I get it. If that the way you like to play the game, that's your business, but don't come here and say that the developers meant it that way, because that is obvious bs. By that logic the sorting in the AH is not meant to sort and the Queue system is not meant to form parties for dungeons because they are not fixing those either. If they fixed shortcuts in the past (look through the patch notes if you wanna verify that, I promise you it's there), I'm pretty darn sure they don't want you to take shortcuts.
It's funny how people will find all sorts of bs excuses for why it's ok to exploit the game's flaws, but will come crying and asking for "fixes" because they can't face the fact that someone kick their buts in PvP
Skill Animation exploiting? Nowhere on any forums have I said a thing about doing any such thing -- nor do I participate in that behavior.
There is no such thing as a design on the map for a shortcut. Running to campfires is not how the game was designed either.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
You may have met some skilled cheaters, but the majority (95%) are bad players. There is no high end legit player that I know of that would bother cheating because they don't have to -- They are too good for that. That's the difference.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Pushing off mobs is fine, who cares. It's slow compared to the way we do it (we will push off a few here and there), but you are right the suicide runs are plain cheating.
You can tell the way MC was designed that they are getting away from the dumping mobs off the edge.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Actually that's exactly how the game was designed, because when you run to the campfire and die you respawn there. Everyone that values their time is going to do things the fastest way possible, and since respawning at the next fire if you are close to is in the game design they take advantage of that.
Are you singing the trollolol song right now? "Instantly killing entire groups is way slower than DPS'ing it all down with a GWF cause we're so pro" uh huh. Even if you instantly killed everything you attacked (which is quite far from the truth) you couldn't kill 20 mobs faster than a CW pushing b/c of your 5 target cap. You would be killing your 3rd set of 5 while CW had popped his 20 off and was ready for the next pull.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Well the game isn't designed to purposely die by the campfires. It is an exploit and it needs to be fixed. If they wanted you to do that they wouldn't have trash (or even objectives like in MC).
5 Target Cap shows you how much you don't know about GWF. When you combine unstoppable + lightning proc + mass AOE damage mowing things down, and this is just me. Not to mention other classes (including the best CW on the server Blackthorn), we melt everything. Name one 20 mob trash pull in this game. Unless you are aggroing half the map to run it to an edge, which again is slow. But if you want to dump off the edge, go for it. You already sneak to the campfires, what is the point.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Yes I do know that lightning is awesome for AoE threat, however the damage is around 180, and even if it procs both times that's 540 damage. Now if it procced both times on all 5 mobs thats 2.5k which is quite nice but it doesn't happen like that every swing, it is amazing for threat but it's not like lightning makes up for only being able to hit 5 things.
On my CW I can hit unlimited targets with icy terrain and proc lightning on every single tick of it lol (it's hilarious looking and the sceen is absolutely filled with numbers)
30 of those little mobs in Karru x 7 ticks of icy terrain = 210 shocks x 3 jumps = 630 lightning procs in 7 seconds lol. that's 113k damage in 7 seconds LOL
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
180 damage? Far from it. Anyways, if you are doing 113k damage in 7 seconds why bother cliff tossing?
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
You can stop these pointless arguments with the troll. He's obviously trying to get this thread closed, again. Just don't answer him.
Yes CWs are very broken right now which is why this is the case, however ignoring this and playing like they are not invalidates everything your saying about how quickly you clear things or about how leet your gwf/cws are. We are not responsible for the feywild patch or the shift in content focus that came with it (as you point out, malabogs) which instead of helping GWFs, further overpowered CWs. It's not our fault that the best group makeup right now is 5 CWs, or if the CWs are lazy, 4CWs and a DC, or if the dungeon includes a significant speed element involving a stealth skip, 4 CWs and a TR. Take it down to lfg pug level and 1 TR, 1 DC, 3 CW. If fulminorax dropped a guaranteed purple instead of 34 silver for the effort invested in killing him then you'd see the gwf added to the mandatory list for MC, and people actually running 3/3. But since he doesn't, you're not. The fact that you think lightning > vorpal for anything other than an frost spec'd cw is kinda heh as well.
I agree that a large number of players that use short cuts only do so because that's all they know. I also agree that a staggering large number of players are simply bad. But to say all or even 95% of the ones who shortcut are weak or bad players is bs. That staggering large number of players who are bad? That includes short cutters and "legit" style all the same. A lot of players are bad, period.
We can clear everything "legit" burning down everything leeroy style clearing dungeons in <20min because we're good, geared, and have done it a million times. But outside of guild/friend runs, add a few pugs from lfg and it's just easier to take what shortcuts are readily available and hard for newbs to #%! up doing.
Lol no this is a game you have to play the way the developers chose for you. That's why they are fixing exploits. I agree they are doing it at snail pace but it's being done, and more holes get fixed patch after patch. I think sending recodings of these "shortcuts" is more efficient than moaning on the forums though, so that's what i do. I've sent so many bug reports that i think you can thank me for a couple of fixes i guess.
I've been working on karrundax recently, my next target will be spellplague. Some exploits are hard to report if you're not a TR (which is the cheater's class) but it's doable with some practice.
The current mechanics (or lack there of) allows these thing to be done. The devs could have easily made it such a way that you have to kill EACH boss before the next boss spawn (similar to the Foundry) That way no exploitation. They could have easily wall off the ares where you can "knock off mobs" but these mechanics are in place so who is to say it is not "legal"?
People will usually try to maximized their time (especially game time) If given a choice that you can sit around and do nothing earning $20, or digging a ditch for 8 hours and earn $20. what would you do? (some people do choose digging ditches vs doing nothing for various of reasons)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
And that's human nature to have overweighted people sitting in their couch watching TV all day as soon as they have enough money to do it, if you really want a RL comparison, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
There are many motives to be willing to play the right way. I enjoy myself being the best player i can, and i think i'm really good now since i don't skip any fight. I also like playing with different players whenever it's possible. So i want to see exploits fixed to be able to see how different parties play the game. I also want exploits fixed to be able to earn a healthy amount of ADs with legit playing, which is what i enjoy doing.
As long as the game developers want people to play my way and fix exploits it's the right way, and yes i'll do what i can to help them to force everyone to play my way.
True, but given the nature of humans, you either have to make it "hard" for people to do it the right way or people WILL choose the easiest way possible (when they can)
Can everyone be rich? sure! for some it takes a lot of work (school, jobs, business, and luck) or REALLY luck like winning to Lotto (which proves my point that people willing to invest some to hope to make it big. Gambling is in the blood for some)
If the devs want people to run the Dungeon "Legit" (per original post) then they CAN fix it by doing it similar to Foundry. They could even have "locked" gate that cannot be pass until previous boss is taken down etc etc. As long the shortcut mechanics exist in the game, people will use it. Notice that some exploits/bugs (like nightmare boxes fiasco) was fix REALLY fast (because it cost them money) and some are not.
I am not saying doing a total dungeon creation, I'm suggesting using the CURRENT tools to fix it (again I'm using the Foundry as an example)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.