[Archive] Tips To Combat Exploit Maps & UGC Listing Feedback And Suggestions

apocrs1980

Correct I can always be counted on to do my part to keep the game fun, friendly, and played as the dev's intended it to be played.

rogu3ish

Thanks for spelling this out Zovya. I'm happy to help PWE/Cryptic/The Community by bringing exploits to light (via the appropriate channels) so they can be dealt with accordingly.

karitr

Count me in on Beholder.

zoiks100

Is there some way to review a quest again, for the purpose of reporting the TOS violation, after having already rated it?

As I went through most of them over the weekend, and reviewed->rated and reported each one. I didn't consider that rating might cancel the TOS violation report.

I did also do a CS help request on each one though also, as well as the ones I wasn't able to finish.

At any rate, regardless of whether I can review again or not, if anyone is on Mindflayer and needs help going through one send me a tell in-game (@zoiks100) and I'd be happy to help if I have the time. (Note that this also applies to non-exploit quests for reviews but be warned I don't give free 5 stars.)

celantra

Excellent, I support and agree with this method of dealing with this whole heartedly. You can count on my support.

zebular

. . . . .Thank you Zovya! If I may make a suggestion for an edit to:

How do we help?
The only avenue you have is to report the quests using the in-game tools.

. . . . .To expand/add to this, I suggest:
How do we help? You can help by reporting them through the proper channels. The forums are not a proper channel and will result in thread closure. Proper channels include the following:

• Report it through the means after playing. Choose to Review and then press "Report for TOS Violation."
• In Game GM Help Ticket, choose Behavior and input the Author's @handle and include the foundry short-code in the report.
• Same as above but through the Support Web Site (link up top every page in this site).
• Same as above but all details sent to customerservice@perfectworld.com

. . . . . As Zovya said, lets keep this thread clean. Mayhap we can lock and sticky this. If that is what you would want, to prevent what happened before, just let me know Zovya. Thanks again!

koboldbard2

zebular wrote: »

. . . . .Thank you Zovya! If I may make a suggestion for an edit to:

. . . . .To expand/add to this, I suggest:
How do we help? You can help by reporting them through the proper channels. The forums are not a proper channel and will result in thread closure. Proper channels include the following:

• Report it through the means after playing. Choose to Review and then press "Report for TOS Violation."
• In Game GM Help Ticket, choose Behavior and input the Author's @handle and include the foundry short-code in the report.
• Same as above but through the Support Web Site (link up top every page in this site).
• Same as above but all details sent to customerservice@perfectworld.com

. . . . . As Zovya said, lets keep this thread clean. Mayhap we can lock and sticky this. If that is what you would want, to prevent what happened before, just let me know Zovya. Thanks again!

Ok, and what do we do when doing that, repeatedly, won't work? Because it hasn't worked before.

zovya

zebular wrote: »

. . . . .Thank you Zovya! If I may make a suggestion for an edit to:

. . . . .To expand/add to this, I suggest:
How do we help? You can help by reporting them through the proper channels. The forums are not a proper channel and will result in thread closure. Proper channels include the following:

• Report it through the means after playing. Choose to Review and then press "Report for TOS Violation."
• In Game GM Help Ticket, choose Behavior and input the Author's @handle and include the foundry short-code in the report.
• Same as above but through the Support Web Site (link up top every page in this site).
• Same as above but all details sent to customerservice@perfectworld.com

. . . . . As Zovya said, lets keep this thread clean. Mayhap we can lock and sticky this. If that is what you would want, to prevent what happened before, just let me know Zovya. Thanks again!

Thanks. Made the edits. I want this to remain visible, so that authors know how to report these things. Sticky and lock is fine with me.

lolsorhand

.../signed, and dubble signed.. Tripple signed? Yup.

zebular

koboldbard2 wrote: »

Ok, and what do we do when doing that, repeatedly, won't work? Because it hasn't worked before.

. . . . . Unfortunately, there is no other recourse than the channels I provided and Zovya has now edited into her OP. Just because a reply is not sent nor immediate results seen, doesn't mean one is being ignored. Trust me, this issue and threads like these and others that have become rule violations of their own accord, have not gone unnoticed.

. . . . . Just by me showing some recognition and Moderation to this issue in threads past, it should be an apparent sign that the Community Team (which includes four paid employees and a handful of volunteer staff), is aware. If the Community Team is aware, PWE/Cryptic as a whole is aware to some degree.

zovya wrote: »

Thanks. Made the edits. I want this to remain visible, so that authors know how to report these things. Sticky and lock is fine with me.

. . . . .Thanks! I'll leave this unlocked as long as replies do not violate our Rules of Conduct. Please read them everyone, for they have recently been revised and should be much more understandable. PM with any questions on the Rules. Thanks!

eldarth

I just wish there were a Report TOS violation without having to waste time on the entire quest - I started one recently and after getting into it realized it would have taken at least half an hour or more to just blast thru all the contained mobs. I didn't bother wasting my time. I *did* bother entering a GM user TOS violation report however.

xpurpleinsanityx

Thanks for this, zovya. Hopefully, with more of an awareness... we'll be able to clean the catalog up. *_*

redneckronin

zebular wrote: »

. . . . . Unfortunately, there is no other recourse than the channels I provided and Zovya has now edited into her OP. Just because a reply is not sent nor immediate results seen, doesn't mean one is being ignored. Trust me, this issue and threads like these and others that have become rule violations of their own accord, have not gone unnoticed.

. . . . . Just by me showing some recognition and Moderation to this issue in threads past, it should be an apparent sign that the Community Team (which includes four paid employees and a handful of volunteer staff), is aware. If the Community Team is aware, PWE/Cryptic as a whole is aware to some degree.

I'm going to say this: actions speak louder than words.

When I see the 5 quests I, and many others, reported over a week ago have been taken down then I'll believe PWE/Cryptic are not ignoring the issue.

When it would take only 15-30 seconds of time to confirm those maps I reported as being exploitative and they are still there over a week later the only logical conclusion to come to is nothing has been done.

As I understand it the way Zovya was talking about yesterday of "helping the Devs" required us to play through these quests, and then use the report function at the end.

Unless we are 100% guaranteed that this will bring those quests down it is counter-productive; because we've just bumped the Number Of Plays for those quests by a considerable number.

Unless I am 100% certain doing this will result in that quest being removed then I will not be doing this, as I have no intention of helping Exploit-Authors get more plays - which is what using the "report" function does.

We need to see that our efforts are leading to actions against the exploiters.

So far we have seen zilch.

All The Best

zebular

redneckronin wrote: »

I'm going to say this: actions speak louder than words.

When I see the 5 quests I, and many others, reported over a week ago have been taken down then I'll believe PWE/Cryptic are not ignoring the issue.

When it would take only 15-30 seconds of time to confirm those maps I reported as being exploitative and they are still there over a week later the only logical conclusion to come to is nothing has been done.

As I understand it the way Zovya was talking about yesterday of "helping the Devs" required us to play through these quests, and then use the report function at the end.

Unless we are 100% guaranteed that this will bring those quests down it is counter-productive; because we've just bumped the Number Of Plays for those quests by a considerable number.

Unless I am 100% certain doing this will result in that quest being removed then I will not be doing this, as I have no intention of helping Exploit-Authors get more plays - which is what using the "report" function does.

We need to see that our efforts are leading to actions against the exploiters.

So far we have seen zilch.

All The Best

. . . . . Please use any of the other methods I provided Zovya, which she has since edited into her OP, to report these. I do agree with you on a sentiment that your concerns here all boil down to, and that is that there needs to be more internal PWE/Cryptic Staff readily available to review each and every reported mission. I also agree that there needs to be an easier way to report exploit missions than having to play them or go through several processes to get a GM / Support file lodged. All I can do is try to reassure the Community that this is not going unnoticed and I am sure, given time and resources, things will improve.

. . . . . I know it feels like we've been silencing folks on reporting these missions, however the vast majority of these reports have all been in violation of our RoC, ToS, EULA, and/or Privacy Policy and the rest quickly turned to such. Which is why I agree with Zovya and others that this thread might be one of the best things that can be done on the forums to get the Community's voice heard and awareness on how to properly handle and report exploit missions, without violating the a fore-mentioned. Please be assured however, no report, even in violation, has ever been deleted and is still on record readily available for PWE/Cryptic. It is a myth that we delete things, for nothing can truly be deleted from these forums by a Moderator.

. . . . . I really do wish I could assure you all further but sadly, I do not know how besides repeating myself and giving you "my word" which in actually, has little bearing on the internet to many folks, rightfully so. It is hard to earn trust in such an anonymous environment.

. . . . . Regardless, I promise to do my best in keeping this thread here for as long as it takes for you, the Community, to see results. Even if that means I need to clean it of rule violations and eventually lock it. I promise you, I will do all I can to not have to remove this thread until it is no longer needed. What I would like to ask is the Community help and only provide feedback that doesn't touch on Moderation or anything else (like naming & shaming) that violates the a fore-mentioned Rules. Of which, you all have been stellar at doing so thus far here, and it is greatly appreciated. Indeed!

redneckronin

Thanks for the prompt response Zeb, and for understanding my frustration.

On this point:

I do agree with you on a sentiment that your concerns here all boil down to, and that is that there needs to be more internal PWE/Crytpic Staff readily available to review each and every reported mission.

Would it be possible or desirable (from the Cryptic/PWE) point of view to have Foundry Equivalents to the Volunteer Community Moderators.

Players who would Volunteer to run the "initial assessment" of Reported Quests, so that the the Cryptic/PWE Employees with the Authority/Ability to remove Reported Quests would only be dealing with those Quests that do require the Higher Level Actions.

If for example, covered by an NDA, these Volunteers were given guidance on what Cryptic/PWE does and does not consider an Exploit, the Volunteers could then run the initial assessment and only if they determined, based on that guidance, that it was a) clearly an exploit, or b) in a sufficiently grey area to need DEV/GM assessment, would it get bumped to the Devs/GMs etc.

Any quest that had been reported out of spite, or otherwise erroneously reported would be "cleared".

I'm not sure if that would help speed things up from the POV of Cryptic/PWE, but if it would then surely its worth at least mentioning.

It is clear the Foundry Community wants to be pro-active in cleaning up the Foundry and eliminating exploiters. I'd have thought that Cryptic/PWE need to grasp that good-will while it is there, because the longer this issue seems to drag on with no real change on the "front end" the more of the good-will will slip away.

Just a thought.

All The Best

zebular

redneckronin wrote: »

Thanks for the prompt response Zeb, and for understanding my frustration.

On this point:

I do agree with you on a sentiment that your concerns here all boil down to, and that is that there needs to be more internal PWE/Crytpic Staff readily available to review each and every reported mission.

Would it be possible or desirable (from the Cryptic/PWE) point of view to have Foundry Equivalents to the Volunteer Community Moderators.

Players who would Volunteer to run the "initial assessment" of Reported Quests, so that the the Cryptic/PWE Employees with the Authority/Ability to remove Reported Quests would only be dealing with those Quests that do require the Higher Level Actions.

If for example, covered by an NDA, these Volunteers were given guidance on what Cryptic/PWE does and does not consider an Exploit, the Volunteers could then run the initial assessment and only if they determined, based on that guidance, that it was a) clearly an exploit, or b) in a sufficiently grey area to need DEV/GM assessment, would it get bumped to the Devs/GMs etc.

Any quest that had been reported out of spite, or otherwise erroneously reported would be "cleared".

I'm not sure if that would help speed things up from the POV of Cryptic/PWE, but if it would then surely its worth at least mentioning.

It is clear the Foundry Community wants to be pro-active in cleaning up the Foundry and eliminating exploiters. I'd have thought that Cryptic/PWE need to grasp that good-will while it is there, because the longer this issue seems to drag on with no real change on the "front end" the more of the good-will will slip away.

Just a thought.

All The Best

. . . . . This is a very awesome suggestion and one I have heard before too and exactly the type of feedback I hope this thread will provide. Thank you! However, I am unable to answer your underlying question on whether that would be possible or not. In my opinion also, such a Volunteer Team should not have the ability to remove / reprimand themselves, but act more as facilitators or screeners so that PWE Staff would be able to get to the reports that really matter and look into them without wading through countless tickets, and as you said, many tickets done out of malice.

redneckronin

Yes, I agree.

These Volunteers, if they ever exist, should just be initial assessors/screeners.

The power to remove / sanction Quests and Authors must remain with Cryptic/PWE Staff.

All The Best

casekuk

I promoted my first quest in my campaign relentlessly for about 4 weeks. I did MANY review trades to get plays, I helped out where I could, I did everything in my power to try and build some kind of following, be it friendships, aquaintances... Whatever worked!

I made some good friends, and some not so good.. But through me efforts, my quest EVENTUALLY started to get played of it's own accord! It was about 20th in the 'New List' and because of it position, those searching down a little way found it and played it!

Then it stopped...

Ok, so I understand that something cant be NEW for that long, but it's PAINFUL to see my quest that I worked so **** hard on promoting get to a point where its being recognised to only fall from the list entirely and now never gets even so much a 1 play per day!!

I started doing the promotion for my 2nd quest a couple of days ago, and you know what... I don't know if I can be bothered anymore. Whats the point!! 300 plays and out for my first.. Thats it! My current is laying at 8 as I type this (even though I have had it released for two days and have spent a good 6-8 hours this weekend on the forums! The rest of my weekend off has been playing OTHER great foundries for review trades that in their own right will be ignored tomorrow!)

And before anyone berates me for being lucky enough to have 300 plays... Well that's because as I said I WORKED for it! I deserved it, and I put in the time and the effort! For my quest just to drop off the face of the planet again into obscurity is sickening, and wrong!

I cant believe how disheartening it is to look through the lists and see some amazing foundries that have been published for WEEKS that only have 10 - 30 plays! There are literally HUNDREDS of DECENT authors work out there that is not being recognised unless they spend endless hours in self promotion! A simple randomization of the list would be better than nothing!

PWE - YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING! PLEASE!!!

I know this will fall on deaf ears... I just felt like a rant.

Art (aka Casek)

zebular

Just so it is clear, as my words can be easily over-looked in my wall-of-text reply a few posts up:

. . . . . What I would like to ask, is that the Community help and only provide feedback that doesn't touch on Moderation or anything else (like naming & shaming) that violates Rules. To clarify: Such things in particular that is sought would encompass ways to combat exploit missions, how to improve legitimate missions notice-ability, and anything else to help make the foundry list more appealing to both authors and players a-like.

. . . . . There are known bugs with the search feature, so issues pertaining to this in particular should be made as bug reports instead. Just be sure to read the OP folks, as the information there-in is something all authors, and even players, should be aware of and practice of their own accord.

Thanks!

wuhsin

zebular wrote: »

Just so it is clear, as my words can be easily over-looked in my wall-of-text reply a few posts up:

. . . . . What I would like to ask, is that the Community help and only provide feedback that doesn't touch on Moderation or anything else (like naming & shaming) that violates Rules. To clarify: Such things in particular that is sought would encompass ways to combat exploit missions, how to improve legitimate missions notice-ability, and anything else to help make the foundry list more appealing to both authors and players a-like.

. . . . . There are known bugs with the search feature, so issues pertaining to this in particular should be made as bug reports instead. Just be sure to read the OP folks, as the information there-in is something all authors, and even players, should be aware of and practice of their own accord.

Thanks!

My response to the underlined text is for all of the Foundry authors to rate legitimate quests the same way farmers and exploiters rate farm and exploit maps. Because the Foundry community is so overly critical of their peers, giving out mostly three and four star reviews, most legitimate quests have fallen below the exploit and farm maps on the New list. Even worse, Zovya says they've made their way onto the Best list. The reason for is this, the exploiters are religiously five starring these abominable quests, and there seems to be more exploiters than there are Foundry authors. Anyway, my point is, be more generous in your ratings toward each other. The Foundry community's brutal sense of honesty is the real reason most legitimate authors can't compete with the exploiters. Maybe one day our many, many reports will be heard, and the devs will step in, and make things right. When that day comes, I might republish my quests, and start working on my next adventure again.

Thank you to Zovya, and Zeb. I'm glad both of you are working to resolve this crisis.

redneckronin

wuhsin wrote: »

Even worse, Zovya says they've made their way onto the Best list.

I had a look about an hour ago and I couldn't see any of the 5 dupes of the same quest by that author we are not going to name.

I didn't have him on subscribe though, so can't see if he's just re-duped them all to give them new short-codes.

All The Best

wuhsin

redneckronin wrote: »

I had a look about an hour ago and I couldn't see any of the 5 dupes of the same quest by that author we are not going to name.

I didn't have him on subscribe though, so can't see if he's just re-duped them all to give them new short-codes.

All The Best

Right, because we know not to name exploit maps, exploiters, or describe the mechanics in their maps. That's against the rules, which we must obey. Obey. OBEY! Um, anyway, I'll go search his author handle now.

Update: I checked, and three copies of it are still up. They're just buried under the latest wave of exploits, which I am not naming, or describing the mechanics of, because obeying the rules is cool.

Lets hope for a better future.

zovya

They're all still there. That's why we need EVERYONE to report. This is a small community, you can't wait for your peers to do it. Everyone has to do this.

rogu3ish

I ran a couple last night that I thought were offenders, but I couldn't find others. Would someone be willing to PM me some info about them so I can locate and report, assuming they're actually exploits?

casekuk

And there it is... the golden rules that can't be broken are the very ones that are precluding us from doing what the post is asking us to do in the first place!

I have no idea how to spot one, no idea what I'm looking for and I'm not about to run all the top foundries to try and find them. I spend ALL my time promoting my own, but if we just had a name...

Priceless.

Art

mokah

So let me get this straight...

1. Currently you have a "Crisis" in the Foundry community where authors are creating missions that exploit the system using methods that have been around since before the official launch.
2. These missions are very popular by the playerbase and are getting such high votes that they are getting onto the "top" lists.
3. "Legitimate" authors are getting there missions pushed off the list as a result and the community solution to this crisis is to play through the missions, vote them down, report them, and then artificially vote "legitimate" missions up.

A couple questions:

• Why hasn't Cryptic fixed the exploits? Surely the community has issued bug reports.
• Isn't playing an exploit mission exploiting an exploit?
• Are we being asked as a community to break the rules that we agreed too when installing the game?

IMO, the solution to this problem lies squarely on the backs of Cryptic, not on the community. The moderators have stated in this very thread that they are aware of the problem. Starting a voting war and breaking rules does not sound like a viable solution to me.

rogu3ish

mokah wrote: »

Why hasn't Cryptic fixed the exploits? Surely the community has issued bug reports.

I wouldn't mind knowing that myself. We're told they're aware of the problem - it's likely just a manpower/priority issue.

Isn't playing an exploit mission exploiting an exploit?

I would assume so, but since one of the methods (that we think may be the most effective in getting an exploit questremoved) available to report such exploits requires you to actually play through the quest, I'm not sure how you get around participating.

Are we being asked as a community to break the rules that we agreed too when installing the game?

Unless you're referring to participating in the exploit just to report it, I'd say no. We're being asked as a community to watch out for exploits and report them as we see them. Is that against the ToS? I thought that was SoP in an MMO.

IMO, the solution to this problem lies squarely on the backs of Cryptic, not on the community. The moderators have stated in this very thread that they are aware of the problem. Starting a voting war and breaking rules does not sound like a viable solution to me.

This isn't a voting war. This is asking the community to be aware of exploits and report them. I'm also not sure what rule is being broken by doing so.

[Edit]

It would be one thing if we were being asked to down-vote or report legitimate 'farming' quests. That's not what we're being asked to do. I don't have any problem with Foundry Quests that have zero story, minimal design, and just a string of encounters you fight through for loot or daily credit.

The problem is with quests designed to enable exploits. There are several on both the Best and New pages in the UI. It's insulting to have legitimate work people have poured weeks of time into shoved aside for a quest whose popularity is solely due to it being easy-mode loot and daily credit thanks to exploits.

koboldbard2

rogu3ish wrote: »

Unless you're referring to participating in the exploit just to report it, I'd say no. We're being asked as a community to watch out for exploits and report them as we see them. Is that against the ToS? I thought that was SoP in an MMO.

It would violate the TOS as it's written, to knowingly use the exploit to play exploit quests for any reason, since the player gets xp from them if nothing else.

10. User Conduct (k) Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Games or the Service;

In fact we've been warned by devs there would be consequences for knowingly playing exploit content.

zovya

mokah wrote: »

So let me get this straight...

1. Currently you have a "Crisis" in the Foundry community where authors are creating missions that exploit the system using methods that have been around since before the official launch.
2. These missions are very popular by the playerbase and are getting such high votes that they are getting onto the "top" lists.
3. "Legitimate" authors are getting there missions pushed off the list as a result and the community solution to this crisis is to play through the missions, vote them down, report them, and then artificially vote "legitimate" missions up.

A couple questions:

• Why hasn't Cryptic fixed the exploits? Surely the community has issued bug reports.
• Isn't playing an exploit mission exploiting an exploit?
• Are we being asked as a community to break the rules that we agreed too when installing the game?

IMO, the solution to this problem lies squarely on the backs of Cryptic, not on the community. The moderators have stated in this very thread that they are aware of the problem. Starting a voting war and breaking rules does not sound like a viable solution to me.

Right???????

mokah

zovya wrote: »

Right???????

I don't seem to understand your detailed response.

zovya

mokah wrote: »

I don't seem to understand your detailed response.

I love that. My detailed response (lol) is that I agree with everything you said.