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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Militia Barracks

Do Small Increases to Weapon Damage Make a Huge difference?

eternal256eternal256 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
edited July 2013 in The Militia Barracks
Was looking to buy some upgrades for my tr/gwf/gf but cant decide if its worth spending a decent amount of ad for em. I noticed that some of the more "expensive" weapons (around 400k-1mil) have only around ~50 difference between the average weapon dmg range. Of course, the stats are a little bit better as well, but is it worth the price of the posted value?

Does it increase encounter dmg/at-will dmg by a significant amount..or is that based around Attack power + ArP and other attributes

To make this question seem easier: Take any pvp weapons dmg range and compare it to the Ancient sets. The damage range is pretty small...but is it worth it?

Also...are ancient weapons (the ones with the set), BiS?
Post edited by eternal256 on

Comments

  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Apart from possibly TR (who have low weapon damage) or weapons with the extremely efficient Armor Penetration dps stat on them, I do not believe anything beats increases in base weapon damage which gets modified by a high weapon coefficient plus all other bonuses.

    This is especially the case if you are in endgame and are at softcaps or diminishing return ranges in the other stats like Recovery and Crit.

    As far as I know, Ancient weapons are BiS for all classes (do not forget they have their own 2-set bonuses with their offhands too) except GF.

    GF BiS is either the Brutal Lizardfolk Scimitar in general or the Longsword of the Timeless Hero if the rest of your stats are in DR or softcap range, though some still prefer the Ancient for the stat and gear flexibility it gives them.
  • desjardiniidesjardinii Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 193 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    If it helps sorting out weapons with different stats, 1 base damage increase on a weapon is equal to 25 power. Normally an increase in base damage will yield larger differences down the road. I think the diference iirc, is the ancient GF weap has about 15 more base damage than the Timeless or other T2's. So even though it has less power in stats, you should do more damage because of the increased base damage.
  • chudovishyechudovishye Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Yes, you will notice a difference. Same thing with enchants. I debated it, but when I saved up enough AD for a rank 8 radiant, I was happy it replaced my rank 5. The damage increase was noticeable, very noticeable, with only a single enchant. They're expensive, but do your work and you'll get them.
  • petpet2petpet2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    chudovishye wrote: »
    Yes, you will notice a difference. Same thing with enchants. I debated it, but when I saved up enough AD for a rank 8 radiant, I was happy it replaced my rank 5. The damage increase was noticeable, very noticeable, with only a single enchant. They're expensive, but do your work and you'll get them.
    +1

    i'm glad i've switched from lizardfolk to ancients
  • sfxer001sfxer001 Member Posts: 118 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Also, consider that with ancients sword (or timeless sword), a larger bulk of your damage is coming from weapon damage than it is coming from power. This means that when your guard meter is running low, you are losing less overall damage from a lack of power-stack that normally gets doubled by the Conqueror capstone. It might just be a negligible difference, but it exists.
  • belladanbelladan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 146 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    I just bought a second weapon for my sentinel GWF, and was using a reaper-defensive original as I was saving for the allure stone. +19 damage changes IBS from 8800 crit on first shot to 9600-10796 as an average, when it crits. This is also inclusive of no power modification.

    (I then bought reinforced Vig arms instead of reg. Vig arms for a mini-boost to stats. ^_^)


    Oh, and like usual everybody's answer is wrong. It's dependent on the average and min value. If you are using a 500-600 damage weapon, and you have an option between 525-750 damage weapon or a 700power boost, grab the power boost. However if the weapon is 526-750, grab the weapon damage one. (numbers aren't exact, fyi.) For the current lineup of level 60 weapons, the power-weapon damage min ratios work at around 424power as a maximum difference for power, with 11-39 damage increase for the min value. As such, the power is too negligible to make it a sufficient contributor to overall weapon damage.

    Saying "get a higher weapon damage weapon" is an over-simplification of the system. The -1 damage from the pvp t2 sword will give you an overall increase in damage over that of the ice axe and mr. bone sword, as the power is sufficient enough to exceed the damage barrier.
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    chudovishye wrote: »
    Yes, you will notice a difference. Same thing with enchants. I debated it, but when I saved up enough AD for a rank 8 radiant, I was happy it replaced my rank 5. The damage increase was noticeable, very noticeable, with only a single enchant. They're expensive, but do your work and you'll get them.

    :D Wait till you are all Rank 8's and working on 9's :D
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Also 25 Power ='s 1 Weapon Dmg.

    so when you are looking at a weapons true weapon damage. You take the Min/Max + Power/25
  • copticonecopticone Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    dkcandy wrote: »
    Also 25 Power ='s 1 Weapon Dmg.

    so when you are looking at a weapons true weapon damage. You take the Min/Max + Power/25

    I do not believe this is accurate. It seems for the purpose of calculating damage, the weapon base damage goes into the formula before adjustments. Whereas Power is an added variable and also scales differently depending on which Powers you are using. I found a difference between a weapon with an extra 20 base damage vs 20 damage extra through Power stat.
    Check out my personal Nerf Proof T2 Thaumaturge Build.
  • desjardiniidesjardinii Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 193 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    copticone wrote: »
    I do not believe this is accurate. It seems for the purpose of calculating damage, the weapon base damage goes into the formula before adjustments. Whereas Power is an added variable and also scales differently depending on which Powers you are using. I found a difference between a weapon with an extra 20 base damage vs 20 damage extra through Power stat.

    So which was greater then? the 20 power or the 20 base damage?
  • chudovishyechudovishye Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    dkcandy wrote: »
    :D Wait till you are all Rank 8's and working on 9's :D

    Hahaha, getting there, and it's depressing. That will take more time and speed.
  • copticonecopticone Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    desjardinii wrote: »
    So which was greater then? the 20 power or the 20 base damage?

    The 20 base damage on the weapon was MUCH greater than the 20damage from power.
    Check out my personal Nerf Proof T2 Thaumaturge Build.
  • desjardiniidesjardinii Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 193 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    copticone wrote: »
    The 20 base damage on the weapon was MUCH greater than the 20damage from power.

    THats what I thought, but havent done the actual number crunching on it.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Weapon damage is number one for raw DPS before any other factors are considered.

    Having said that, you must take into account builds and desired outcome before you make a decision.
  • fimcontefimconte Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    copticone wrote: »
    I do not believe this is accurate. It seems for the purpose of calculating damage, the weapon base damage goes into the formula before adjustments. Whereas Power is an added variable and also scales differently depending on which Powers you are using. I found a difference between a weapon with an extra 20 base damage vs 20 damage extra through Power stat.

    No. You can test this with low level weapons.

    16-20 dmg 16power vs 20-25dmg 44 power.

    Surge: 461-474 vs 479-495, Surge has a coefficient of ~3 dmg per 25 power.

    Power gain was only +28 = ~1.12dmg x3 = 3.36, which doesn't add up.

    However if we add 5dmg = 6.12 total x 3 = ~18.36, which is much closer to the observed results.

    Since I don't really care about rehashing this, I cba'd pin-pointing the exact coefficient for GF skills, but as you can see it's very likely that 1 weapon damage translates directly to ~25 power.


    So in essence: 20 weapon damage = ~500 power.
    Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
    Gods Glory to the Heroes.

    TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
    GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
  • copticonecopticone Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    fimconte wrote: »
    No. You can test this with low level weapons.

    16-20 dmg 16power vs 20-25dmg 44 power.

    Surge: 461-474 vs 479-495, Surge has a coefficient of ~3 dmg per 25 power.

    Power gain was only +28 = ~1.12dmg x3 = 3.36, which doesn't add up.

    However if we add 5dmg = 6.12 total x 3 = ~18.36, which is much closer to the observed results.

    Since I don't really care about rehashing this, I cba'd pin-pointing the exact coefficient for GF skills, but as you can see it's very likely that 1 weapon damage translates directly to ~25 power.


    So in essence: 20 weapon damage = ~500 power.

    Honestly it is too early in the morning for me to argue about math, and you may be right, but I still do not see the point. From what I am gathering you are still making an assumption about Power, then filling in the numbers to get to the desired result. I can do the same thing with the weapon base damage and add a modifier to it. Maybe I am just not following what you are saying. But here is what I am suggesting for a proper test.
    Take 100 hits with a weapon with x amount of Power. Then another 100 hits with a weapon that has 20base damage LESS, and compensate with an extra 500 power (obviously while maintaining all other stats). If you get the same damage output then you are right and I am wrong.
    If I have time, I will try to do that as well on the test server.

    UPDATE: ok I did a quick test. I got 2 weapons, one with 34 damage more than the other.
    I did a few Sure Strikes using 1 weapon, then used the lower weapon + 806Power (32.24 damage).
    Then I did the same thing slotting Takedown, Restoring Strike and IBS.
    The Higher damage weapon only yielded 2-5% more damage on everything. So I am assuming had I had exactly 850 power (the exact equivalent of 34damage) + a lot more strikes. The variation would have been even smaller.
    So it appears that I am wrong. But I have a feeling that this was changed in one of the recent patches, because I did a similar test before and weapon damage showed a much higher damage vs. damage from Power. Maybe it was the patch where they mentioned something about Power being boosted (or fixed).
    In summary, it appears that 25 Power does indeed add 1point of weapon damage.
    Check out my personal Nerf Proof T2 Thaumaturge Build.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    You are making it too complicated.

    You can use the same weapon.

    Get a ring or a set of rings with x amount of power.

    Start test one without the rings on.

    Start test two with rings on.

    Compare.
  • bigbascdtbigbascdt Member Posts: 42
    edited July 2013
    fondlez wrote: »
    Apart from possibly TR (who have low weapon damage) or weapons with the extremely efficient Armor Penetration dps stat on them, I do not believe anything beats increases in base weapon damage which gets modified by a high weapon coefficient plus all other bonuses.

    This is especially the case if you are in endgame and are at softcaps or diminishing return ranges in the other stats like Recovery and Crit.

    As far as I know, Ancient weapons are BiS for all classes (do not forget they have their own 2-set bonuses with their offhands too) except GF.

    GF BiS is either the Brutal Lizardfolk Scimitar in general or the Longsword of the Timeless Hero if the rest of your stats are in DR or softcap range, though some still prefer the Ancient for the stat and gear flexibility it gives them.

    Actually it depends on your setup. My sent. GWF (PvP only) is decked in full tank gear (titan/imposing scrapper 2/2 sets), and regen+maxhp. Now it also has 7 greater teneb enchants, which hit for 3% of your max health. Now I don't know about you, but the ancient castle champion's sword doesn't give me +maxhp, nor does it give me better defensive capabilities, so it's useless to me, regardless of the damage if gives me. I use reaver's edge, because it gives me 900 extra health, which leads to about 200 extra damage every 10 seconds from my tenebrous enchantments. Your call, +9 extra damage on every swing and no tankability, or +200 damage every 10 seconds and good tank stats. I know which one I'm going for.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Does tene proc on just one target? If so then yeah...give me the +9 raw damage before modifiers. I hit more than one mob 95% of the time.

    Regarding your build ...I would agree I would rather the 900HP.

    I am dps so I want offensive stats.
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    bigbascdt wrote: »
    Actually it depends on your setup.
    <snip>
    Your call, +9 extra damage on every swing and no tankability, or +200 damage every 10 seconds and good tank stats. I know which one I'm going for.

    Good call. I agree, I mean in general and I have neither an endgame GWF nor TR to be able to test for those classes.
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    bigbascdt wrote: »
    Actually it depends on your setup. My sent. GWF (PvP only) is decked in full tank gear (titan/imposing scrapper 2/2 sets), and regen+maxhp. Now it also has 7 greater teneb enchants, which hit for 3% of your max health. Now I don't know about you, but the ancient castle champion's sword doesn't give me +maxhp, nor does it give me better defensive capabilities, so it's useless to me, regardless of the damage if gives me. I use reaver's edge, because it gives me 900 extra health, which leads to about 200 extra damage every 10 seconds from my tenebrous enchantments. Your call, +9 extra damage on every swing and no tankability, or +200 damage every 10 seconds and good tank stats. I know which one I'm going for.

    Agreed - All gear depends on a players build. Tene's are not affected by Power, CRT or ARP and pure Max HP.
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