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Guardian Fighters in Pvp using Conq spec are out of control

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  • zxornzxorn Member Posts: 160 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    People seem to put OP, Nerf Nerf Nerf, without any evidence, statistics or even supplying a theoretical scenario that supports their claim.

    I'm going to do some guys a favor and supply tactics for each class (minus cleric since I don't play one). These will work nearly every single time against a GF. I do this mostly because I hate the sound of babies crying. drives me nuts.

    Oh and a previous post claims something about GF w/ GTene. TR by far makes the best use of GTene of any class because they will almost always get full dmg on the initial procs from range and it's not entirely the HP pool that does the dmg. Its the +%dmg synergy such as lurkers. Next would be GWF then GF/CW.

    Now, how to fight a GF...

    -
    TR Vrs GF: Stealth at your max range, preferably before they see you. Knife them 1-3 times, this will cause most GF to Guard and try and close to your position. A good GF will use the sound effects to track you. Move a bit and throw more knives until his Guard is 10%. (note if 9+ knives do not break a GF's Guard you have bad gear and wont 1v1 them)

    If you are not Gtene or lower gear You'll probably use smoke bomb instead of Impact shot. All rogues should be using Impossible/lashing otherwise.

    If using Smoke Bomb: Most GF will continue to hold guard until it breaks against knives, Throw 2 more knives break the Guard and leave stealth with smoke bomb, You now have a dazed GF with no guard and who is slowed. Follow with a flurry and lashing blade, if the lashing crits it should be over. If not pop impossible and be immune to the CC he's about to throw at you, flurry 2 more times and you win taking roughly half your HP with no CC's. If he's not somehow dead dodge away, get ready for the lunging, dodge it, and keep running stealth should be up before his next lunge.

    If using Impact Shot: As above finish the Guard meter off with knives, purposely wait for your stealth to nearly end then pop impossible, give them 1 flurry and a Lashing, as before if lashing crits it's over. If not dodge backward, then dodge the lunging he's about to use. (If they didn't waste it against your impossible) Impact shot, Move further back, throw 1-3 knives, Impact shot again, at this point it should deff be over but if not you should be able to restealth in a matter of seconds since you have not actually taken any damage. If they saved their lunging for after Impossible and you were forced to dodge twice you "might" have a problem though you've already had two possible kill scenarios at this point. Create some distance, Restealth knife the 20% guard they may have gotten back finishing your knife supply and repeat starting from impossible to catch.

    Note I did not mention Dailies since they're entirely a bonus in this Vrs.

    -

    GWF Vrs GF: If you are Sent/Tene you win, Sadly there's not a lot a GF can do against that build. 2-3 encounter put you at Full Unstoppable with 1/2-2/3 hp left and you will sprint up to them rampage their guard down and CC lock them dead.

    If you are the usual Stunlock Hybrid DPS build: You can still take a full encounter set from a GF as long as they don't triple crit. However you can actually stop a GF from using bullrush if you use Takedown just as a GF reaches you with lunging. Its quit possible to knock them first or at least each other at the same time.

    If you did not interrupt them: after being knocked back from bullrush and down from frontline, use Unstopptable, note that a smart GF will not walk right up to you if the triple encounter did not drop you to less than 15% as cleave is slow and does horrible dmg and they will only get 2 of these off before you can unstoppable with full meter.

    A good GF will try to create some distance forcing you to sprint and catch them till their encounters return and your unstoppable wears off. Just use some sprint and try a Takedown to their back. if they didn't block it you have a full CC lock kill. If they did block it, spam sure strike and break their guard, if they drop guard to run again flurry lock them, if your daily is up its over. If they continue to block, it will take all of 4 seconds to fully break guard, then do flurry, knockdown should be back, as well then use Indom Strike.

    Both fighters are usually a good fight against each other however Cresendo > Indomitable as far as dailies. When vrsing anything but cleric. In fact I find Cresendo to be one of the best dailies in the game next to Lurker's.

    -

    CW Vrs GF: Stay max range at all times. It is not your job to compromise your range advantage in order to cap points unless terribly necessary. You're Job is to get the other team off the point and caping at expense of range should be a last resort.

    There are two variants of this tactic one uses enfeeble the other uses frost. Enfeeble is quicker while Frost has much more single control.

    If using Frost: Spell Master Conduit, This is not the best for your group In regard to anti caping, but after all we're talking about Vrs GF. Conduit an incoming GF, move back and let chill stack, Frost ray for one stack and the GF will freeze regardless of Guard. Entangle them, recast Conduit if possible, then Ice shard before they break free. If your daily is up Use it quickly and they cannot Guard it while stunned. The GF should now be 1/3 Hp or less, Repel the GF while they are prone if you did not have Knife up, they blocked or you slot shield move back or even blink once for room then repeat all steps. You can throw missile and frost ray stacks when you feel comfortable. They simple cannot get to you ever.

    If using Enfeeble: This tact usually slots Spell Master repel, as its better for your group. Spot an incoming GF, throw 1-2 magic missiles, don't bother with the full attack, see if they block, if they do enfeeble and move back as you move 3x faster than a GF with Guard up. If they drop guard to move quicker repeat this step. If they keep guard up throw a full missile set at them. The key to missile against guard is that its multiple smaller dmg hits, Guard gains extra mitigation vrs larger dmg attacks. Which is why Lashing and Ice Knife do not work well against it.

    If they face tank your first missile barrage do 1-2 more attacks not the full set. End the 2nd or 3rd strike as an Entangle. Do not use Chill strike or Repel as they have very easy to identify motions from range, Entangle is very hard to catch in the middle of magic missiles. If they managed to block the Entangle; Blink away and repeat above steps. If you land it which you most likely will Enfeeble another stack, Chill strike and if you're Knife is up quickly use it. This will usually bring a GF to 1/3 HP or dead depending on crits. Now use Repel while they're prone or stun and repeat from the top.

    The key is to trick a GF into either letting you missile his guard down (Which should take at max 3 full attack) to open him to CC or to sneak an Entangle in when he drops it for movement. Keep in mind that with both of these tactics you have to use blink at most once or twice. You still have 2 + recharge time for any room of error. Even if the first set does not kill a GF somehow, you can repeat all these steps multiple times as a GF has one easily dodged 40' gap closer.
    -


    There's simply no reason to nerf any class across the board as of current, certain skills are for sure up to debate. However I cannot see how anyone can come to a proper "balance" decision while Hit Detection is beyond horrible and certain mechanics such as bringing an opponent's def to negatives are in place.

    Thanks for reading hope this helps.
  • chabowbieschabowbies Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    zxorn wrote: »
    People seem to put OP, Nerf Nerf Nerf, without any evidence, statistics or even supplying a theoretical scenario that supports their claim.

    I'm going to do some guys a favor and supply tactics for each class (minus cleric since I don't play one). These will work nearly every single time against a GF. I do this mostly because I hate the sound of babies crying. drives me nuts.

    Oh and a previous post claims something about GF w/ GTene. TR by far makes the best use of GTene of any class because they will almost always get full dmg on the initial procs from range and it's not entirely the HP pool that does the dmg. Its the +%dmg synergy such as lurkers. Next would be GWF then GF/CW.

    Now, how to fight a GF...

    -
    TR Vrs GF: Stealth at your max range, preferably before they see you. Knife them 1-3 times, this will cause most GF to Guard and try and close to your position. A good GF will use the sound effects to track you. Move a bit and throw more knives until his Guard is 10%. (note if 9+ knives do not break a GF's Guard you have bad gear and wont 1v1 them)

    If you are not Gtene or lower gear You'll probably use smoke bomb instead of Impact shot. All rogues should be using Impossible/lashing otherwise.

    If using Smoke Bomb: Most GF will continue to hold guard until it breaks against knives, Throw 2 more knives break the Guard and leave stealth with smoke bomb, You now have a dazed GF with no guard and who is slowed. Follow with a flurry and lashing blade, if the lashing crits it should be over. If not pop impossible and be immune to the CC he's about to throw at you, flurry 2 more times and you win taking roughly half your HP with no CC's. If he's not somehow dead dodge away, get ready for the lunging, dodge it, and keep running stealth should be up before his next lunge.

    If using Impact Shot: As above finish the Guard meter off with knives, purposely wait for your stealth to nearly end then pop impossible, give them 1 flurry and a Lashing, as before if lashing crits it's over. If not dodge backward, then dodge the lunging he's about to use. (If they didn't waste it against your impossible) Impact shot, Move further back, throw 1-3 knives, Impact shot again, at this point it should deff be over but if not you should be able to restealth in a matter of seconds since you have not actually taken any damage. If they saved their lunging for after Impossible and you were forced to dodge twice you "might" have a problem though you've already had two possible kill scenarios at this point. Create some distance, Restealth knife the 20% guard they may have gotten back finishing your knife supply and repeat starting from impossible to catch.

    Note I did not mention Dailies since they're entirely a bonus in this Vrs.

    -

    GWF Vrs GF: If you are Sent/Tene you win, Sadly there's not a lot a GF can do against that build. 2-3 encounter put you at Full Unstoppable with 1/2-2/3 hp left and you will sprint up to them rampage their guard down and CC lock them dead.

    If you are the usual Stunlock Hybrid DPS build: You can still take a full encounter set from a GF as long as they don't triple crit. However you can actually stop a GF from using bullrush if you use Takedown just as a GF reaches you with lunging. Its quit possible to knock them first or at least each other at the same time.

    If you did not interrupt them: after being knocked back from bullrush and down from frontline, use Unstopptable, note that a smart GF will not walk right up to you if the triple encounter did not drop you to less than 15% as cleave is slow and does horrible dmg and they will only get 2 of these off before you can unstoppable with full meter.

    A good GF will try to create some distance forcing you to sprint and catch them till their encounters return and your unstoppable wears off. Just use some sprint and try a Takedown to their back. if they didn't block it you have a full CC lock kill. If they did block it, spam sure strike and break their guard, if they drop guard to run again flurry lock them, if your daily is up its over. If they continue to block, it will take all of 4 seconds to fully break guard, then do flurry, knockdown should be back, as well then use Indom Strike.

    Both fighters are usually a good fight against each other however Cresendo > Indomitable as far as dailies. When vrsing anything but cleric. In fact I find Cresendo to be one of the best dailies in the game next to Lurker's.

    -

    CW Vrs GF: Stay max range at all times. It is not your job to compromise your range advantage in order to cap points unless terribly necessary. You're Job is to get the other team off the point and caping at expense of range should be a last resort.

    There are two variants of this tactic one uses enfeeble the other uses frost. Enfeeble is quicker while Frost has much more single control.

    If using Frost: Spell Master Conduit, This is not the best for your group In regard to anti caping, but after all we're talking about Vrs GF. Conduit an incoming GF, move back and let chill stack, Frost ray for one stack and the GF will freeze regardless of Guard. Entangle them, recast Conduit if possible, then Ice shard before they break free. If your daily is up Use it quickly and they cannot Guard it while stunned. The GF should now be 1/3 Hp or less, Repel the GF while they are prone if you did not have Knife up, they blocked or you slot shield move back or even blink once for room then repeat all steps. You can throw missile and frost ray stacks when you feel comfortable. They simple cannot get to you ever.

    If using Enfeeble: This tact usually slots Spell Master repel, as its better for your group. Spot an incoming GF, throw 1-2 magic missiles, don't bother with the full attack, see if they block, if they do enfeeble and move back as you move 3x faster than a GF with Guard up. If they drop guard to move quicker repeat this step. If they keep guard up throw a full missile set at them. The key to missile against guard is that its multiple smaller dmg hits, Guard gains extra mitigation vrs larger dmg attacks. Which is why Lashing and Ice Knife do not work well against it.

    If they face tank your first missile barrage do 1-2 more attacks not the full set. End the 2nd or 3rd strike as an Entangle. Do not use Chill strike or Repel as they have very easy to identify motions from range, Entangle is very hard to catch in the middle of magic missiles. If they managed to block the Entangle; Blink away and repeat above steps. If you land it which you most likely will Enfeeble another stack, Chill strike and if you're Knife is up quickly use it. This will usually bring a GF to 1/3 HP or dead depending on crits. Now use Repel while they're prone or stun and repeat from the top.

    The key is to trick a GF into either letting you missile his guard down (Which should take at max 3 full attack) to open him to CC or to sneak an Entangle in when he drops it for movement. Keep in mind that with both of these tactics you have to use blink at most once or twice. You still have 2 + recharge time for any room of error. Even if the first set does not kill a GF somehow, you can repeat all these steps multiple times as a GF has one easily dodged 40' gap closer.
    -


    There's simply no reason to nerf any class across the board as of current, certain skills are for sure up to debate. However I cannot see how anyone can come to a proper "balance" decision while Hit Detection is beyond horrible and certain mechanics such as bringing an opponent's def to negatives are in place.

    Thanks for reading hope this helps.

    +1 for having the patience to write all that.
    INB4, INB4
  • capgarnascapgarnas Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 500 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    zxorn wrote: »

    CW Vrs GF: Stay max range at all times. It is not your job to compromise your range advantage in order to cap points unless terribly necessary. You're Job is to get the other team off the point and caping at expense of range should be a last resort.

    There are two variants of this tactic one uses enfeeble the other uses frost. Enfeeble is quicker while Frost has much more single control.

    If using Frost: Spell Master Conduit, This is not the best for your group In regard to anti caping, but after all we're talking about Vrs GF. Conduit an incoming GF, move back and let chill stack, Frost ray for one stack and the GF will freeze regardless of Guard. Entangle them, recast Conduit if possible, then Ice shard before they break free. If your daily is up Use it quickly and they cannot Guard it while stunned. The GF should now be 1/3 Hp or less, Repel the GF while they are prone if you did not have Knife up, they blocked or you slot shield move back or even blink once for room then repeat all steps. You can throw missile and frost ray stacks when you feel comfortable. They simple cannot get to you ever.

    If using Enfeeble: This tact usually slots Spell Master repel, as its better for your group. Spot an incoming GF, throw 1-2 magic missiles, don't bother with the full attack, see if they block, if they do enfeeble and move back as you move 3x faster than a GF with Guard up. If they drop guard to move quicker repeat this step. If they keep guard up throw a full missile set at them. The key to missile against guard is that its multiple smaller dmg hits, Guard gains extra mitigation vrs larger dmg attacks. Which is why Lashing and Ice Knife do not work well against it.

    If they face tank your first missile barrage do 1-2 more attacks not the full set. End the 2nd or 3rd strike as an Entangle. Do not use Chill strike or Repel as they have very easy to identify motions from range, Entangle is very hard to catch in the middle of magic missiles. If they managed to block the Entangle; Blink away and repeat above steps. If you land it which you most likely will Enfeeble another stack, Chill strike and if you're Knife is up quickly use it. This will usually bring a GF to 1/3 HP or dead depending on crits. Now use Repel while they're prone or stun and repeat from the top.

    The key is to trick a GF into either letting you missile his guard down (Which should take at max 3 full attack) to open him to CC or to sneak an Entangle in when he drops it for movement. Keep in mind that with both of these tactics you have to use blink at most once or twice. You still have 2 + recharge time for any room of error. Even if the first set does not kill a GF somehow, you can repeat all these steps multiple times as a GF has one easily dodged 40' gap closer..


    Thank you for your post which I did read. Maybe my points should more focused towards the nerf the CW’s received and how that affects their gameplay. However my comments in this post are towards the stunlocking when your within GF at will range. In many cases when i get caught is see 80-90% taken off health by GFs

    Your strategy which is easily employed by many CW’s is how we currently and have previously handled GF’s. Why then the noise. Prepatch there were strong GF’s and now there are more due to gear accumulation and buffs to the class.

    There are the RW (loosely used) problems that a CW faces with regards to your post. Rivenscar Map has the space to be somewhat effective against GFs. On the other hand Hotenow Domination map offers little in the way of effective range for CW’s.

    1. Attacking 2 you need to be in range of the GF dropping from the top. Once they are in close its GG
    2. LOS issues with the large circular barriers before each stair. Again once they are close GG
    3. The 1 &3 platforms are too small and as soon as you top the stairs you are likely to be in range. Once they are in close its GG
    4. Attacking from the Circular barriers above 2. Melee drops in from above usually immediate rogue kill.
    5. Too many corners too many stairs puts us in melee effective range.

    This is the problem faced by the build of the CW’s currently against all melee. If you aren’t at effectively max range you will face multiple problems dealing with classes.

    I note you say it’s not our job to cap. Prepatch I could go for a cap and take it one on one in enough cases to make it worthwhile. Now it is simply not the case.

    Say what you want QQ as much as you want. In a domination match they are a liability.

    I would be very interested to see what our counter would be once the Stunlocking begins because for me it is extremely rare to get out of it once it starts.
  • capgarnascapgarnas Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 500 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    chabowbies wrote: »
    +1 for having the patience to write all that.

    Why would anyone listen to anything you plus 1 to. How many moderator removed messages do you get buddy. Get under your bridge.

    You add nothing but ***** and Lr2play to every post.
  • fusedmassfusedmass Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 252 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    chabowbies wrote: »
    +1 for having the patience to write all that.

    Its so odd. You are so fiercely defending the Gurdians. as "Learn to Play Issue" did you also say that last patch when CW were supposedly, Over Powered. No, I'm a CW and I didn't. They ended up getting nerfed because their are people out there who actually disagree with you, as shocking you might find it. They even know more about the game then you do.

    Take a moment to absorb all that in. Now several classes ended up becoming nerfed last patch. I know CW did on several items. Just because no one complains, or everyone complains. Doesn't mean their is nothing wrong with it. You've done nothing in this thread but mock, shoot flame remarks to every poster who even agrees they should be nerfed.

    Why exactly are you in this thread still. We heard your peace pages ago, yet you continue to be here to praise the people who say they are not over powered, then mock the ones you don't agree with you. If its true that you've gotten posts removed then I'm going report if you continue to be a distraction in this post.

    We all can disagree with each other, yet you're entire attitude is to directly mock, repeated saying its a "Learn to Play Guys"

    did everyone last patch map out in exact science what was wrong with CW. No, the Dev's ended up figuring it out on their own. So your welcome to complain all you want but the Dev's have the data. If they find the class over powered, then even without your so called great knowledge they will nerf it despite what you think.
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