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Race changes and why they're needed
spoohtheone
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 15 Arc User
I'm aware that cryptic has stated that they've been trying to stay away from race changes because of role playing and lore reasons, which i understand completely. Theres only a major problem to that, and that is how ridiculously important it is to choose the correct stats at the start.
When I bought the foundry pack (60 dollar) all I knew about the game was the different classes and that it had gotten good reviews out of closed beta. I needed a new MMO and didn't hesitate buying the pack. When I created my character I carefully read the passives / racials and was happy with my choice, however when I got to the stats rolls I just rolled until my primary stats was capped and moved on. I also tried reading up on what the actual stats did, but there is nowhere ingame that's explained until the character is already made (and I was really eager to start playing anyway...!)
Now, of course wisdom is completely garbage for Clerics compared to literally all the other abilities and I've only realized this after clearing all the dungeons in the game and gotten almost fully geared. It would really suck to level up a new Cleric just because I'm a sucker for min-maxing and I cannot stand seeing my stats not being optimal because of a choice I did when I knew nothing about the game.
Pros and cons with having race change:
Pros:
Incredible amounts of money can be made
Everyone unhappy with their race / initial stats will be extremely happy
You don't need to level up a new character because of a mistake you made when you were a rookie
Cons:
Players who strongly care about lore / role playing would not like this.
I really do understand that some people really care about their Lore, but in my honest opinion not having the option to race change / change the initial chosen abilities is NOT a good move for an MMORPG, especially not when it has such a big impact on your character. I would understand it if it was a single player RPG, but it isnt.
When I bought the foundry pack (60 dollar) all I knew about the game was the different classes and that it had gotten good reviews out of closed beta. I needed a new MMO and didn't hesitate buying the pack. When I created my character I carefully read the passives / racials and was happy with my choice, however when I got to the stats rolls I just rolled until my primary stats was capped and moved on. I also tried reading up on what the actual stats did, but there is nowhere ingame that's explained until the character is already made (and I was really eager to start playing anyway...!)
Now, of course wisdom is completely garbage for Clerics compared to literally all the other abilities and I've only realized this after clearing all the dungeons in the game and gotten almost fully geared. It would really suck to level up a new Cleric just because I'm a sucker for min-maxing and I cannot stand seeing my stats not being optimal because of a choice I did when I knew nothing about the game.
Pros and cons with having race change:
Pros:
Incredible amounts of money can be made
Everyone unhappy with their race / initial stats will be extremely happy
You don't need to level up a new character because of a mistake you made when you were a rookie
Cons:
Players who strongly care about lore / role playing would not like this.
I really do understand that some people really care about their Lore, but in my honest opinion not having the option to race change / change the initial chosen abilities is NOT a good move for an MMORPG, especially not when it has such a big impact on your character. I would understand it if it was a single player RPG, but it isnt.
Post edited by spoohtheone on
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I don't like how you off handedly roleplayers with this offensive quote. Allowing people to race change would ruin my immersion and most likely kill the game entirely.
Bringing up money is also confusing - I think Perfect World are more concerned with building the perfect Dungeons and Dragon MMO than their profits.
What race did you pick ?
LOL
That might be true for Cryptic, however, PWE is just a publisher. As long as it's making money I'm sure they couldn't care less.
That aside, I personally don't care which race I am. I'll play anything even if their top roll isn't spec'd out for a certain class. All that matters is looks for me. Tiefling Cleric FTW!.
I'm not too sure actually how much a couple stats are really going to do for you anyways. It's not like the stats are going up by 30% each point you stack into a certain trait.
The only race I would "maybe" see getting behind as a certain class is a melee Dwarf. And this is only due to their racial trait that they can't be knocked back, or around as much as other races, even then, I myself wouldn't choose a Dwarf anything just because of that, mainly because I'm not a Dwarven fanatic.
That aside, I'd love em to add a "Race Change" token. Maybe they'll one day throw in a Succubus race. I'd pay $50 just to change, or hell, simply even buy that race period.
I have one lore beef with the game involving races: in Forgotten Realms, they are not called wood elves; they are called moon elves. This is a small thing, I know, but a thing nonetheless. I mean, if you have the license, you might as well stick to the lore especially when it doesn't affect coding or gameplay. Simply sticking to the generic 4E lore instead of incorporating FR material is just creative laziness.
I don't see how it would break immersion more than allowing you to change apperance. Just call it a polymorph or shapeshifting spell. But if you absolutly can not, instead of changing your race, allow a token to let you pick which racial abilities you want. A slightly stronger than avarage halfling doesn't break roleplay immersion.
At least your character's name gets inserted into the game's text, and that you can pay to change.
Actually there are quests that are only available to certain races and classes. For example you cant do Scout Stones quests unless you are human. And there are Dwarf quests in the Tower district.
Now granted, they are minor and there are no perks or unique rewards, that I am aware of. But that is not to say, it couldn't end up changed or expanded at some point. If that were to happen, it could seriously complicate race changes.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?77771-The-Minimum-Wisdom-Cleric-Keeping-up-with-Changing-Times-for-Healers
The gist is that since we don't heal by burst , it is much more effective to have a cooldown which is 20% lower than a heal which is 10-20% higher.
So if you heal for 200 every 15 seconds as base, (my current radian sun skills)
at low level than 20% more power you heal for 240 each 15 seconds so over 1 minute = 240*4=960
with 20% less cooldown you heal 200 every 12 seconds so over 1 minute 200*5=1000
And it get exacerbated at high level.
You also have to consider that races aren't cosmetic. As sockmunkey mentioned certain races have access to certain quests...
But the more key aspect is that different races have different abilities. Certain races are better for certain classes or for certain functions. And as the game evolves I would imagine race choices will become more (rather than less) important.
This is something which shouldn't be added to the game.
But I hate all this reset button stuff to begin with. Magic erasers are horrible and I'm an old school player who advocates for everything short of permament death.
Choices have to be meaningful. MMO's belittle every choice with magic erasers and it's really something I don't care for at all.
* Also, you can't cry "for RP's sake, no!" since RP is completely optional and for the few "true RPers" you can simply not use the feature if you don't want to? Pointless argument.
* For lore's/DnD's sake? Oh please, this game is already so far off DnD it's funny, and this wouldn't effect it much. Pointless argument.
* Not purely cosmetic change, some races get certain quests? So what? The same is true in WoW, and alot more than a few quests are racebound, yet they have a racechange that works great - and gets Blizzard money, making both sides happy?
Had this been a true DnD game, the unforgiving kind and a truly innovative MMO with more PnP in it... sure, I'd be all for old school and immersion and purist responses here (old school DnD myself) but fact of the matter is Neverwinter is NOT such a game. It already has countless stuff either missing or wrong, and it even has a Change Appearence, why not Race?
From my previous thread about this;
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?231141-Change-Race-feature
"Does anyone know (not holding my breath for a Cryptic response here) if there are any plans on implementing a Race Changer in the Zen store, like the Change Appearence one? Far from uncommon in MMOs, so you'd think this one would have it.
My mains are always wizards/warlocks/clerics, and I'm a shallow, superficial gamer who really want to finally be able to play them as Drow (rare option in other MMOs :P ) here but have to wait 50ish (?) days for the race to be unlocked - having a Race Change option would make this a non-issue. "
Alot of poeple there thought it would be a great idea as well.
Johnfell couldn't have said it any better i agree completely.
RP is not, in fact, optional. The game forces you to RP at least as far as character creation goes. Whether you ignore it after that point is up to you, but you were roleplaying when you created John the Tiefling Great Weapon Fighter, Tempus-worshipping soldier of Amn instead of Player0233.
Whenever I see this, I wonder where this single player game is and how you're playing it.
It's an MMO. Of course it affects other players.
Bottom line is you're still dealing with D&D. There's a lot of D&D missing in the game because it's an MMO.
I'm not willing to give up much more without a fight.
This game should have more D&D brought into it, not taken out of it. That's where that argument flounders.
And while it's easy to claim it doesn't effect people, it does. Claiming it doesn't effect other people is the same excuse the rotten exploiters use to justify cheating.
Whether or not the game allows certain features I consider blasphemous to the D&D IP effects me viscerally. It may not effect you but it effects me, and to argue that would be akin to dictating my emotions or opinions which is, quite blatantly, only discernible by me.
That was one of the weakest arguments ive yet to see in forums... The fame -forces- you to RP, by yourself all alone, the minutes it take to make your character in-game... so... despite the fact that the rest of the hundreds of hours that may follow is not RP for you... the first minutes should for some reason dictate the rest..? Uuukay...
Also; saying "RP" can mean alot of things. It can mean roleplaying your character to a degree by yourself and getting into the storyline and having it consistent with game rules and lore, all of wich you are (by RP) bound by.... or it can mean you actually Roleplay you character with others through text/voice chat and emotes and so on.
Neither of the 2 are really an argument here.
And regarding your response to Wayward;
Please read what he wrote again. I get that you were trying to be clever or funny (ha.. ha) but obviously it's not a singleplayer game, nor did he say it was, but the effect on others in this MMO WOULD be non-existent or minimal. And for the RPers hanging around chatting and emoting in Inns, Im sure they can handle if their friend suddenly came in as a new race.
You said RP was optional. I showed one way in which it was not.
If you think direct refutation is a weak form of argument, then there's really nothing you'll accept, is there?
Please offer insight into how an optional Race Change would effect others?
And sure, I would have liked more DnD brought into it, but since that's clearly not the direction theyre going, why not add more MMO features that people really want and like - especially if they don't harm anyone, and similar ones already exist in-game?
Again; Appearence Change is in game. Why not Race Change (using DnD as an excuse)?
Something tells me you didnt read my response, or just got stuck on the first sentence due to whatever personal reasons.
And Ill accept a bunch of stuff, but mainly strong arguments supported by either information or simply "the ol' good thinkin'". You had neither. Not trying to be rude, I just didn't see the real argument in it's supposed entirety, just nitpicking to land excuses to support what you want for the sake of wanting it.
Oh, and rerolling the same class with another race is out of the question. The characters are way too expensive in this game.
Sane words in a MMO forum. A treat.
I second this especially for the second part; Cryptic has a IRL cash/Zen store ingame during BETA... this is a game in beta (wich every defender/fanboi constantly use as excuses) yet it has a cost for respecs? And so much is character bound? Having a main char, leveling and gearing it, and saving up AD or Zen or what have you, kind of means something here - it's not alt friendly due to the store's design.
So just re-rolling the same class and doing the exact same all over again isn't an option for us, or alot of others. Just respect that.
Lastly; For "RP Reasons" I demand a way to mail gold/astral diamonds to my alts, who I .. er... RP (!) being my friends! Or... multiple personalities afflicted upon me by the death of Mystra (being an epic magic user, close to the lady, I suffered horribly)... Yeah.. so.. for "RP Reasons." Cause that's ok, appearently....
You get punched really hard, your nose gets broken and therefore your appearance is adjusted.
You fail to dodge a fatal swing completely and end up with a nasty scar running from your nose to cheekbone.
You get a bit more sun and some hair dye and now you have green hair and tan skin instead of pale skin and blonde hair.
But no matter what you do you will always be the race you were born as. Even transmutations do not (often) actually give the racial benefits of the race you are transmuted to.
As to how it effects people, we can argue day and night and you will never be happy with the answer. The elegant way to put it is that this is a multiplayer game and the ability for players to do things do effect you. Might not be profane but every choice they make does effect you just as the choices of your neighbors do effect you even if its something as minor as putting lawn ornaments up.
Different actions effect different people at varying levels of severity but it does effect people. As a player who is here because this is a D&D game it effects me massively. This is an MMO but it is also a D&D Game, but the only argument weaker than 'this is an MMO so toss out the D&D' is that 'there isn't a lot of D&D to begin with so it doesn't matter if more is taken out.'
The D&D features lacking in the game are things that should be fought to get proper inclusion and love. The D&D that remains is something to preserve and expand upon.
These things might not effect you but they do effect me. Every single thing which I hold dear to D&D which gets tossed out the window or spit upon is a bit of emptiness to me. It doesn't mechanically effect me but as a fan of D&D with my own personal vested opinion on what is important to D&D it effects me greatly. And if enough of the D&D is thrown out so will my love for the game.
That's my feelings, my emotions laid bare. Your own personal feelings on the matter might differ but you may not state that my feelings are false.
You can toss your D&D-Analogies the whole day, it doesnt change the fact that the game is too expensive to play more than one char effectively. therefore racechange is the only way to go.
There is a difference between something positively or negatively affecting you, and a difference between behaviors that you can choose to ignore (as they have no practical effect on you; that is, the choice to not mind what others do as long as it does not limit or restrict what you can do) and those that you can't ignore, e.g. where others force "things" on you that have practical, negative consequences for you.
The qualifier is whether something affects you negatively on a practical level. Someone spamming you affects you negatively as you have to actively do something about it. Someone rolling need on the item that would be a real upgrade for you affects you negatively. Someone kicking you out of an arena or a dungeon because you play the wrong class, that also affects you negatively.
Someone else, who you do not know, never talked to, never played with, don't even know exist, changing their character's race does not affect you negatively. People who get excited over it do it for purely dogmatic reasons (their way or no way, never mind that they can choose for themselves to not change their race, it must also be "verboten" for everyone else). Having people like that in the game I play affects me negatively because it restricts my choices (which, if I could make them, would not limit their freedom -- their views however do impact on my freedom).
I would pay for race changes. Make it $30 per change, if it includes starting rolls and gender, and I'm likely to hand over more cash. Sure, the one character where I would like different starting attributes for I could delete and re-make, and I could just semi-idle in PvP to level it up, but should that be the consequence of making "choices that matter"? It would not make me feel great, nor would it make other players happy, and it would not be fun. Having fun is the chief objective of a game. Choices matter in Real Life, and I feel that people who feel that others should not have fun in a video game because they unfortunately made the wrong choice probably live very happy, very unencumbered real lives. I am happy for them, of course.
Even from a RP perspective an option to change a character's race can be justified. If a character is so unhappy that he or she considers to end their existence, would it not be better for them to look into magical ways to alter that which makes their imaginary lives unbearable? Thus, the transformation would become part of their history, part of their adventure, rather than they themselves becoming a throw away character or, in the plot's point of view, a dead end without continuation.
So both from a MMO and a RP perspective a race change option would be excellent, and one that would ensure the enjoyment and happiness of the only people actually and practically affected: those who wish to race change their character.
A well worded and thought out response, kudos
I agree with your thoughts regarding Face Changer.
I do not agree with the rest;
Others being able to Race Change would effect you in the way of.... giving you a bit of emptiness inside you, because you choose to be emotional about something that doesn't in any way you can actually describe effect you, apart from a near philosophical sense?
Sorry, I just don't see this as a valid reason.
Times are changing, MMOs are created, and die, and while this is a self-proclaimed "DnD MMO" it's not very DnD, and of course alot more DnD additions would be nice, but maybe have some real reasons behind implementing them, or why not to?
I could go on about the old days to my heart's content too (and I have in other MMO forums or the like - 4th edition itself was a travesty I thought) but this is an MMO in 2013 and one that has to compete with other games of it's genre, too.
And regarding RP; Wouldnt a Wish/Miracle spell's "other outcomes" work, or the spell's ritual equivalent in 4e?