my observations from todays dungeons: we are nerfed yes (but how hard? are we useless? no!), bosses take a bit longer but we are still clearly ahead in single target dps (thats what we are for). and remember its not only us that got nerfed. so cw set (shadow weaver) got fixed which costs all party members critical severity, you have to move more cause of as nerf and uptime of astral shield, if you use plague fire enchantment it got nerfed hard (especially way of how it reduces stats), and so on. there happend so much it will take some time till all things get noticed correctly (especially setbonus "nerfs"/fixes etc.)
I am pretty sure CW and GWF can beat executioner single target now. You probably "feel" like we do more because they're generally preoccupied. But if you brought a CW or GWF just to do single target damage (or even a GF now) they'd likely do equal or better damage.
about cw i am not sure but gwf? how? have to see numbers... confused.
0
arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
edited June 2013
Have you tested this? My tests show GPF increasing damage by 9%, while the DOT accounts for 4%ish of my total DPS (standard executioner, 5k power, 3.5k crit, swash/ioun/ancient, Duelist's Flurry spam). If we assume 75% crit severity and 50% crit chance, Vorpal is a 9.09% increase in DPS, which GPF beats on defense reduction alone. Greater Vorpal is close, once you factor in the DOT from Plague Fire, and crit severity bonuses. Perfect definitely wins, obviously.
Now, if someone else is stacking Plague Fire for you, Vorpal wins easily, as expected. But if not, GPF is on-par with Greater Vorpal for solo DPS, and better if your team lacks it already.
0
fimconteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Have you tested this? My tests show GPF increasing damage by 9%, while the DOT accounts for 4%ish of my total DPS (standard executioner, 5k power, 3.5k crit, swash/ioun/ancient, Duelist's Flurry spam). If we assume 75% crit severity and 50% crit chance, Vorpal is a 9.09% increase in DPS, which GPF beats on defense reduction alone. Greater Vorpal is close, once you factor in the DOT from Plague Fire, and crit severity bonuses. Perfect definitely wins, obviously.
Now, if someone else is stacking Plague Fire for you, Vorpal wins easily, as expected. But if not, GPF is on-par with Greater Vorpal for solo DPS, and better if your team lacks it already.
Did you maintain Wicked Reminder as well?
Also I'm a bit confused how you got 9.09% for Normal Vorpal?
Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
If you have 50% crit the value of crit severity is literally CS/2 = damage buff. Regular vorpal is 25%, so 12.5% damage. Vorpal did not scale with overrun critical before the patch, and likely still doesn't, or you'd further increase this value by 15% to 16.25% damage buff. (12.5% + 15%*25%). So either way a regular vorpal is better than a regular plague fire, and probably better than a GPF now (since they fixed defense debuffs). This also means that a Greater Vorpal (38%) and Perfect Vorpal (50%?) are Vastly superior to any version of plague fire.
If you have 50% crit the value of crit severity is literally CS/2 = damage buff. Regular vorpal is 25%, so 12.5% damage. Vorpal did not scale with overrun critical before the patch, and likely still doesn't, or you'd further increase this value by 15% to 16.25% damage buff. (12.5% + 15%*25%). So either way a regular vorpal is better than a regular plague fire, and probably better than a GPF now (since they fixed defense debuffs). This also means that a Greater Vorpal (38%) and Perfect Vorpal (50%?) are Vastly superior to any version of plague fire.
Perfect Vorpal is 50% for sure. I would love to use it but it acts funny with tenebrous for pvp.
my observations from todays dungeons: we are nerfed yes (but how hard? are we useless? no!), bosses take a bit longer but we are still clearly ahead in single target dps (thats what we are for). and remember its not only us that got nerfed. so cw set (shadow weaver) got fixed which costs all party members critical severity, you have to move more cause of as nerf and uptime of astral shield, if you use plague fire enchantment it got nerfed hard (especially way of how it reduces stats), and so on. there happend so much it will take some time till all things get noticed correctly (especially setbonus "nerfs"/fixes etc.)
I realy doubt you have played with a good speeced gf or gwf post patch ! Cause honestly u would rather have 1 more gwf or gf taking ur place(TR) cause now they just provide more to the team than what u have to offer. I run a gwf, a cleric and tr and imo u can do easily without a tr right now .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Let the darkness prevail ,,For I rise from there ..
about cw i am not sure but gwf? how? have to see numbers... confused.
Before the patch GWF was already way underrated. If you've played with good gwfs in a party, the armor reduction they did was completely insane. Because of this, it is probably hard to see how much damage a good gwf really did before the patch. With GWF + CW and I think GF too, they can bring damage reduction close to -100%, at least before the patch. Now with this everyone would be hitting 2x the damage, so it isn't really that easily noticeable how good gwfs were before the patch.
guys. i got a 12.1 gwf (2 aow/2 vigilant, full geared and slotted (only ancient weps missing) + ion stoned "maxed"*) and a 12.5k gf (full dps specced (mainly followed rokuthy guide and discussion), stalwart, full slotted + ion stone "maxed"*) and i know what they are able to do as i play them frequently - so . especially gwf, but he still suffers by only hitting 5 targets for offense (but he is able to dish out serious aoe) and now is an amazing offtank as well. gf destroyed aoe since day 1 - nothing new here. it depends on group composition etc. i always run dungeons with 1 cleric since the beginning of the game even all stacked 2, because its so funny and easy etc., we cleared all dungeons with 1 of each class (prepatch), we don't use exploits (like spider, frozen running, etc.)... i like my rogue, i will play him and if you gathered some good players on your fl (that know how to play) then you have no issues to get suitable groups with all of your chars. and if you tell me a rogue is useless i cannot agree .
*since enchantments will go higher and higher "maxed" cannot be achieved (dunno if theres a limit on ranks but guess not)
@ronshohan: i even saw groups running and clearing spell with 3x cw and 1x gf, 1 tr pre patch (without dc). i did dungeons without cws and with 2 good specced gfs, and so on. i guess you can do lots of things without several classes but if it makes sense or not - i am not sure about it (especially the none dc version ^^). fun fact: i guess you played with no real good cw(s) cause there goes your damage most cws only stack recov and use singularity (priceless and brainless). even without kick my premade cws do an incredible amount of dmg... and there are soooo many possibilites to kick to get it even higher. (pm me if you are on dragon - might play a bit (and i am searching great gfs and gwfs for gauntlgrym premades).
___________
edit: what are we talking about btw.? i think most people (and thats the way it should be) play classes cause they have fun doing so - i have fun with my gf and gwf, but i have more fun personally with my tr. so i will keep playing him most of the time (and as i always do i try to max out my class in every possible way (testing different builds, group compositions, switching passives during trash and bossfights, switching abilities, reading a lot, talking with other players (all classes), etc.)). even without a ranking system how useful one class might be in dungeons (cannot be achieved at all - depends on various factors and how people engage the game). and to be honest (compared to other mmos (hard to i know cause no raids)) the content is really not that hard at all (like its mostly these days) - it's **** easy to be honest (at least for players that think about the game/classes/mechanics/encounters). so with nothing to achieve (no raids, no comp. pvp) just enjoy the game, the combat system and the class YOU have most fun with.
guys. i got a 12.1 gwf (2 aow/2 vigilant, full geared and slotted (only ancient weps missing) + ion stoned "maxed"*) and a 12.5k gf (full dps specced (mainly followed rokuthy guide and discussion), stalwart, full slotted + ion stone "maxed"*) and i know what they are able to do as i play them frequently - so . especially gwf, but he still suffers by only hitting 5 targets for offense (but he is able to dish out serious aoe) and now is an amazing offtank as well. gf destroyed aoe since day 1 - nothing new here. it depends on group composition etc. i always run dungeons with 1 cleric since the beginning of the game even all stacked 2, because its so funny and easy etc., we cleared all dungeons with 1 of each class (prepatch), we don't use exploits (like spider, frozen running, etc.)... i like my rogue, i will play him and if you gathered some good players on your fl (that know how to play) then you have no issues to get suitable groups with all of your chars. and if you tell me a rogue is useless i cannot agree .
*since enchantments will go higher and higher "maxed" cannot be achieved (dunno if theres a limit on ranks but guess not)
@ronshohan: i even saw groups running and clearing spell with 3x cw and 1x gf, 1 tr pre patch (without dc). i did dungeons without cws and with 2 good specced gfs, and so on. i guess you can do lots of things without several classes but if it makes sense or not - i am not sure about it (especially the none dc version ^^)
Could you show some vids of ur runs? i would like to see it. Especially the "no DC" version
i can check out twitch maybe i am able to find the streamer who did this (i never did a run without a dc - cause i dont now... i like to have one). will be back later and i'll search (i guess i'll find it cause there aren't that many different streamers i usually watch). stick to the thread!
I take anyone into a instance as long as they can survive and do their job well.
All classes have a place in any dungeon as long as they play correctly.
A prime example is when going to CN as - DC, GF, GWF, TR(me), CW. We did great with the GF tanking whilst we took care of the adds (mainly the Fire Mages)
Going in with 2 CWs 2 TRs and DC. We failed and ended up abandoning the instance. all because one of the CW's couldn't control the adds properly and kept Pushing them all over the place. And we lacked defense to tank the adds.
The Best PVP Guild on Dragon/Neverwinter: YoloOldSkoolSwagLoveNeverGingersLuvDupStep even if it's just one of us, you might as well just afk.
Has the OP been updated at all yet or are people still in theory craft mode? Judging by posts that are recent it looks like things will remain the same power wise?
0
arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
If you have 50% crit the value of crit severity is literally CS/2 = damage buff. Regular vorpal is 25%, so 12.5% damage. Vorpal did not scale with overrun critical before the patch, and likely still doesn't, or you'd further increase this value by 15% to 16.25% damage buff. (12.5% + 15%*25%). So either way a regular vorpal is better than a regular plague fire, and probably better than a GPF now (since they fixed defense debuffs). This also means that a Greater Vorpal (38%) and Perfect Vorpal (50%?) are Vastly superior to any version of plague fire.
Wrong. If you have 50% crit and 75% crit severity, the value of crit severity is literally (CS/2.75)= damage buff, not counting overrun critical. Otherwise you're ignoring your EXISTING crit severity. I would have to do overrun critical checking, but it should amount to about 3.3/2.975 ratio with that factored in. That's 10.9% increase, which is better than plague fire, worse than GPF. Checking Greater Vorpal... 3.469/2.975, 16.6%, definitely better.
So IF Vorpal worked with overrun critical, it would be better. As it is (since I just figured out how to factor in Overrun crit), Greater Vorpal is a 12.8% damage increase, which is still worse than Greater Plague Fire, albeit barely. Vorpal is 8.4%, again, worse than Plague Fire (6% debuff, roughly 3% damage increase from DoT).
Makes more sense for Rogues to have Vorpal, since other classes apply PF debuff all over the place, and its multiplicative with vorpal, but not other PF. Still not better for solo DPS though.
Your other crit severity does not matter because crit severity scales linearly. The reason it is CS/2 with 50% critical is because 50% crit means you have a 50% chance of gaining CS% bonus damage. I am not sure why you are trying to overcomplicate it by compounding it.
I also already did the math to determine the formula for overrun critical. Overrun critical does not include vorpal enchants so you do not need to calculate any buff due to overrun when referring to vorpal enchants.
I mean I appreciate that you really want GPF to be useful since you probably dropped a lot of astrals on it, but it just isn't now that it is working as intended.
Also in terms of all the nerfs to executioner: All that really changed is that you can pull comparable numbers in a scoundrel spec that uses Duelist's Flurry to what you can accomplish as executioner. With a really lucky overrun critical crit bleed you will still do higher damage as executioner, but scoundrel is a bit more predictable in that the rest of the rotation backing the bleed is responsible for a bit more of your dps. So basically the spec in this guide is still on top, but if you wanted to play a build that uses scoundrel feats instead, then you won't be far behind on average.
regarding the scoundrel build do you have any numbers for recovery in mind that might be necessary to make it work? i would really like to test it but i cant afford 2x reslotting my items so if i give it a try i have to stick to it for a bit of time i guess.
I honestly don't know. I know you need at least enough recovery to cut off 2 seconds or so from your dazing strike. The Catspaw Style buff lasts about 6 seconds give or take. So 100% uptime on that would be good. You also need enough AP regen to be in lurker's pretty often. So....ever how many % CD reduction it takes to get dazing strike to 6 seconds is a good start. That is probably a lot.
From combat log with 386 recovery = 2.5% ap gain:
without stealth:
Kurahavi,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-81.9876
with stealth:
Kurahavi,,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-90.1863
I do not have points on cunning stalker that gives 20% extra daily power while stealth. I this is multiplied instead of added? Meaning if I had 5 points on the extra 20% more ap from stealth it gives base +30% or base * 1.1 * 1.2 = base * 1.32? Also 1k daily power = 100% daily power. I on the other hand do have points in action advantage that gives me 10% extra ap from stealth.
1010 recovery, 8.6% ap gain
without stealth:
Kurahavi,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-86.878
with stealth:
Kurahavi,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-95.5658
Seems like lashing blade base ap-gain is 80 = 8% of daily ap.
I guess this means, that feats that give extra ap gain becomes more valuable the more ap gain from recovery you got.
Some ap gain data from one of my runs pre-patch.
Lenght 48 mins, spell plague:
Cloud of steel: hits: 91, min: 3.39, max: 3.72, total: 314.55
Impossible to catch: hits: 23, min: 0, max: 76.18, total: 1142.76 => you gain 0 ap when using this skill out of combat.
Shadow Strike: hits: 45, min 67.72, max: 74.49, total: 3243.74
Trigger = bait and switch: hits: 228, min: 0.23, max: 141.36, avg: 19.45, total: 4435.19
DF Hit: hits: 2122, min: 3.39, max: 3.72, total: 6410.96
DF: hits: 713, min:8.46, max:14.9, total 6820.16
Total ap gain:22376 = 22 dailies worth of ap.
Some base ap gains, just finished my 4 hours of testing. 1k ap = 1 daily worth of ap:
DF 1. hit: 8 power, meaning the first strike of duelist flurry
DF 2. hit: 12.8 power, meaning the second strike of duelist flurry
DF Hit: 3.2 power, the hits on third strike. This x9 for full combo.
SF 1. hit: 4.16 power
SF 2. hit: 4.8 power
SF 3. hit: 5.28 power
SF 4. hit: 8 power
Cloud of steel: 3.2 power per hit
Lashing blade: 80 power
Blitz: 48 power, note that it doesn't matter how many targets you hit.
Wicked Reminder: 20 power.
Dazing: 40 power
Path of the blade: 6 power per hit, so one usage = 6 x 18 = 108 power.
Shadow strike: 64 power
Impact shot: 48 power
Smoke bomb: 72 power, gives ap only if you're in combat.
Impossible to catch: 72 power, gives ap only if you're in combat.
I tested all the skills both from stealth and non-stealth. Combat Advantage didn't give any benefit except the feat AA. AA didn't affect impossible to catch nor path of blade, the ap gain was exactly the same regardless if I was in stealth when I used the skill or not or if I had npc "tanking" from other side of the dummy.
I figured trying to count ap gains per second for skills. Most skills seems to have 4 ap per 1 second cd, except wicked has 5, path of blade, if all hits hit has 4.32 and impact shot, if we count 10s cd for charging it, gives 4.8ap/s. On path tho, AA doesn't affect so the gain drops a bit.
After this I thought counting ap gains from auto attack, there seems to be a lot of cases, when the first DF strike just disappears. Same thing seems to happen with SF, either 2nd or 3rd attack just disappears.
Full df rotation takes around 4 seconds, and ap gain 9 * 3.2 + 12.8 + 8 = 49.8 => 12.4 power / s
Full flourish rotation takes around 1.9 seconds, ap gain 4.16 + 4.8 + 5.28 + 8 = 22.24 => 11.7 power / s.
The 1.9 seconds could be 1.8 seconds, which makes these both quite equal in terms of ap gain.
After this I tried using DF first hit then flourish to get higher ap gain, but it seems I was only able to get roughly 10.3 daily power / s.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
Your other crit severity does not matter because crit severity scales linearly. The reason it is CS/2 with 50% critical is because 50% crit means you have a 50% chance of gaining CS% bonus damage. I am not sure why you are trying to overcomplicate it by compounding it.
I also already did the math to determine the formula for overrun critical. Overrun critical does not include vorpal enchants so you do not need to calculate any buff due to overrun when referring to vorpal enchants.
I mean I appreciate that you really want GPF to be useful since you probably dropped a lot of astrals on it, but it just isn't now that it is working as intended.
Also in terms of all the nerfs to executioner: All that really changed is that you can pull comparable numbers in a scoundrel spec that uses Duelist's Flurry to what you can accomplish as executioner. With a really lucky overrun critical crit bleed you will still do higher damage as executioner, but scoundrel is a bit more predictable in that the rest of the rotation backing the bleed is responsible for a bit more of your dps. So basically the spec in this guide is still on top, but if you wanted to play a build that uses scoundrel feats instead, then you won't be far behind on average.
I'm compounding it because I'm trying to compare it to a all-damage amplification effect. If you have 50% crit chance, you can't say that another 50% crit chance is a (crit severity/2)% increase to your damage, because it isn't. You CAN say that Wicked Reminder is a 20% increase to damage when stacked, because defense reduction in this game stacks multiplicatively. The only way you can compare the two is to figure out their average damage amplification on a hit, which requires crit chance and existing severity. I prefer to put my end results as % increase to total damage, though I can also leave them undivided and say "x% of base non-crit damage" if you prefer. In that case, Overrun Critical Greater Vorpal with 50% crit chance and no crit severity buffs is an average of 167.75% of base damage, while GPF is (1.09*1.4875 = 162.14%), before factoring in the bonus damage, which ought to close the gap, if what ACT is telling me about its contribution to my DPS is accurate. You should be able to see why existing crit severity would probably favor Plague Fire there.
But yes, I may be a tad biased. I'm trying to be correct in the math, but agree that Plague Fire is a bad choice for Rogues to have. Thaumaturges, sure. Maybe GWFs. Rogues, no. You want to be able to apply it to as many targets as possible, and looking at it as single target DPS assuming no one else in the group has even a Lesser isn't realistic. (as soon as you do so, its effectiveness is effectively nothing) Time to unslot, mail to CW, and merge all those Vorpal Shards I've been holding on to. That's the way it SHOULD BE, frankly, because if the class with the most crit chance in the game doesn't benefit most from Vorpal, something is terribly wrong.
Crit severity is applied after all damage buffs. So.....no, it isn't compounded. It's linear. Also the issue here was never how crit chance changes your damage, we're talking about crit severity. I have a very lengthy and detailed post giving an accurate depiction of how to value crit rating.
Comments
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Now, if someone else is stacking Plague Fire for you, Vorpal wins easily, as expected. But if not, GPF is on-par with Greater Vorpal for solo DPS, and better if your team lacks it already.
Did you maintain Wicked Reminder as well?
Also I'm a bit confused how you got 9.09% for Normal Vorpal?
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
.-.
Is it worth losing out on 6% HP & 6% stamina regen?
Perfect Vorpal is 50% for sure. I would love to use it but it acts funny with tenebrous for pvp.
I realy doubt you have played with a good speeced gf or gwf post patch ! Cause honestly u would rather have 1 more gwf or gf taking ur place(TR) cause now they just provide more to the team than what u have to offer. I run a gwf, a cleric and tr and imo u can do easily without a tr right now .
Let the darkness prevail ,,For I rise from there ..
Before the patch GWF was already way underrated. If you've played with good gwfs in a party, the armor reduction they did was completely insane. Because of this, it is probably hard to see how much damage a good gwf really did before the patch. With GWF + CW and I think GF too, they can bring damage reduction close to -100%, at least before the patch. Now with this everyone would be hitting 2x the damage, so it isn't really that easily noticeable how good gwfs were before the patch.
*since enchantments will go higher and higher "maxed" cannot be achieved (dunno if theres a limit on ranks but guess not)
@ronshohan: i even saw groups running and clearing spell with 3x cw and 1x gf, 1 tr pre patch (without dc). i did dungeons without cws and with 2 good specced gfs, and so on. i guess you can do lots of things without several classes but if it makes sense or not - i am not sure about it (especially the none dc version ^^). fun fact: i guess you played with no real good cw(s) cause there goes your damage
___________
edit: what are we talking about btw.? i think most people (and thats the way it should be) play classes cause they have fun doing so - i have fun with my gf and gwf, but i have more fun personally with my tr. so i will keep playing him most of the time (and as i always do i try to max out my class in every possible way (testing different builds, group compositions, switching passives during trash and bossfights, switching abilities, reading a lot, talking with other players (all classes), etc.)). even without a ranking system how useful one class might be in dungeons (cannot be achieved at all - depends on various factors and how people engage the game). and to be honest (compared to other mmos (hard to i know cause no raids)) the content is really not that hard at all (like its mostly these days) - it's **** easy to be honest (at least for players that think about the game/classes/mechanics/encounters). so with nothing to achieve (no raids, no comp. pvp) just enjoy the game, the combat system and the class YOU have most fun with.
Could you show some vids of ur runs? i would like to see it. Especially the "no DC" version
I take anyone into a instance as long as they can survive and do their job well.
All classes have a place in any dungeon as long as they play correctly.
A prime example is when going to CN as - DC, GF, GWF, TR(me), CW. We did great with the GF tanking whilst we took care of the adds (mainly the Fire Mages)
Going in with 2 CWs 2 TRs and DC. We failed and ended up abandoning the instance. all because one of the CW's couldn't control the adds properly and kept Pushing them all over the place. And we lacked defense to tank the adds.
Any suggestions I make are purely for PVE DPS, but extra AP regen is really good since our AP regen is so bad.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Wrong. If you have 50% crit and 75% crit severity, the value of crit severity is literally (CS/2.75)= damage buff, not counting overrun critical. Otherwise you're ignoring your EXISTING crit severity. I would have to do overrun critical checking, but it should amount to about 3.3/2.975 ratio with that factored in. That's 10.9% increase, which is better than plague fire, worse than GPF. Checking Greater Vorpal... 3.469/2.975, 16.6%, definitely better.
So IF Vorpal worked with overrun critical, it would be better. As it is (since I just figured out how to factor in Overrun crit), Greater Vorpal is a 12.8% damage increase, which is still worse than Greater Plague Fire, albeit barely. Vorpal is 8.4%, again, worse than Plague Fire (6% debuff, roughly 3% damage increase from DoT).
Makes more sense for Rogues to have Vorpal, since other classes apply PF debuff all over the place, and its multiplicative with vorpal, but not other PF. Still not better for solo DPS though.
I also already did the math to determine the formula for overrun critical. Overrun critical does not include vorpal enchants so you do not need to calculate any buff due to overrun when referring to vorpal enchants.
I mean I appreciate that you really want GPF to be useful since you probably dropped a lot of astrals on it, but it just isn't now that it is working as intended.
Also in terms of all the nerfs to executioner: All that really changed is that you can pull comparable numbers in a scoundrel spec that uses Duelist's Flurry to what you can accomplish as executioner. With a really lucky overrun critical crit bleed you will still do higher damage as executioner, but scoundrel is a bit more predictable in that the rest of the rotation backing the bleed is responsible for a bit more of your dps. So basically the spec in this guide is still on top, but if you wanted to play a build that uses scoundrel feats instead, then you won't be far behind on average.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
[derped]
Disregard this post.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
Base CA AP gain appears to be....nothing.
Could you post the results of your AP gain from lashing with and without CA?
Also I take the 6% stamina & HP to increase my PvE survival, sometimes you just need that extra roll or to buy yourself time to pot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLd_8shL9UQ&feature=youtu.be
Indeed. It's not a multiplicative gain to a bonus that's already there. It's an additive bonus to base CP gain when you have CA.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
From combat log with 386 recovery = 2.5% ap gain:
without stealth:
Kurahavi,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-81.9876
with stealth:
Kurahavi,,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-90.1863
I do not have points on cunning stalker that gives 20% extra daily power while stealth. I this is multiplied instead of added? Meaning if I had 5 points on the extra 20% more ap from stealth it gives base +30% or base * 1.1 * 1.2 = base * 1.32? Also 1k daily power = 100% daily power. I on the other hand do have points in action advantage that gives me 10% extra ap from stealth.
1010 recovery, 8.6% ap gain
without stealth:
Kurahavi,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-86.878
with stealth:
Kurahavi,Lashing Blade,Pn.Gji3ar1,Power,-95.5658
Seems like lashing blade base ap-gain is 80 = 8% of daily ap.
I guess this means, that feats that give extra ap gain becomes more valuable the more ap gain from recovery you got.
Some ap gain data from one of my runs pre-patch.
Lenght 48 mins, spell plague:
Cloud of steel: hits: 91, min: 3.39, max: 3.72, total: 314.55
Impossible to catch: hits: 23, min: 0, max: 76.18, total: 1142.76 => you gain 0 ap when using this skill out of combat.
Shadow Strike: hits: 45, min 67.72, max: 74.49, total: 3243.74
Trigger = bait and switch: hits: 228, min: 0.23, max: 141.36, avg: 19.45, total: 4435.19
DF Hit: hits: 2122, min: 3.39, max: 3.72, total: 6410.96
DF: hits: 713, min:8.46, max:14.9, total 6820.16
Total ap gain:22376 = 22 dailies worth of ap.
Some base ap gains, just finished my 4 hours of testing. 1k ap = 1 daily worth of ap:
DF 1. hit: 8 power, meaning the first strike of duelist flurry
DF 2. hit: 12.8 power, meaning the second strike of duelist flurry
DF Hit: 3.2 power, the hits on third strike. This x9 for full combo.
SF 1. hit: 4.16 power
SF 2. hit: 4.8 power
SF 3. hit: 5.28 power
SF 4. hit: 8 power
Cloud of steel: 3.2 power per hit
Lashing blade: 80 power
Blitz: 48 power, note that it doesn't matter how many targets you hit.
Wicked Reminder: 20 power.
Dazing: 40 power
Path of the blade: 6 power per hit, so one usage = 6 x 18 = 108 power.
Shadow strike: 64 power
Impact shot: 48 power
Smoke bomb: 72 power, gives ap only if you're in combat.
Impossible to catch: 72 power, gives ap only if you're in combat.
I tested all the skills both from stealth and non-stealth. Combat Advantage didn't give any benefit except the feat AA. AA didn't affect impossible to catch nor path of blade, the ap gain was exactly the same regardless if I was in stealth when I used the skill or not or if I had npc "tanking" from other side of the dummy.
I figured trying to count ap gains per second for skills. Most skills seems to have 4 ap per 1 second cd, except wicked has 5, path of blade, if all hits hit has 4.32 and impact shot, if we count 10s cd for charging it, gives 4.8ap/s. On path tho, AA doesn't affect so the gain drops a bit.
After this I thought counting ap gains from auto attack, there seems to be a lot of cases, when the first DF strike just disappears. Same thing seems to happen with SF, either 2nd or 3rd attack just disappears.
Full df rotation takes around 4 seconds, and ap gain 9 * 3.2 + 12.8 + 8 = 49.8 => 12.4 power / s
Full flourish rotation takes around 1.9 seconds, ap gain 4.16 + 4.8 + 5.28 + 8 = 22.24 => 11.7 power / s.
The 1.9 seconds could be 1.8 seconds, which makes these both quite equal in terms of ap gain.
After this I tried using DF first hit then flourish to get higher ap gain, but it seems I was only able to get roughly 10.3 daily power / s.
I'm compounding it because I'm trying to compare it to a all-damage amplification effect. If you have 50% crit chance, you can't say that another 50% crit chance is a (crit severity/2)% increase to your damage, because it isn't. You CAN say that Wicked Reminder is a 20% increase to damage when stacked, because defense reduction in this game stacks multiplicatively. The only way you can compare the two is to figure out their average damage amplification on a hit, which requires crit chance and existing severity. I prefer to put my end results as % increase to total damage, though I can also leave them undivided and say "x% of base non-crit damage" if you prefer. In that case, Overrun Critical Greater Vorpal with 50% crit chance and no crit severity buffs is an average of 167.75% of base damage, while GPF is (1.09*1.4875 = 162.14%), before factoring in the bonus damage, which ought to close the gap, if what ACT is telling me about its contribution to my DPS is accurate. You should be able to see why existing crit severity would probably favor Plague Fire there.
But yes, I may be a tad biased. I'm trying to be correct in the math, but agree that Plague Fire is a bad choice for Rogues to have. Thaumaturges, sure. Maybe GWFs. Rogues, no. You want to be able to apply it to as many targets as possible, and looking at it as single target DPS assuming no one else in the group has even a Lesser isn't realistic. (as soon as you do so, its effectiveness is effectively nothing) Time to unslot, mail to CW, and merge all those Vorpal Shards I've been holding on to. That's the way it SHOULD BE, frankly, because if the class with the most crit chance in the game doesn't benefit most from Vorpal, something is terribly wrong.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.