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How to Succeed in (Foundry) Advertising

thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
edited June 2013 in The Foundry
Hey All,

While carrying on a discussion in this thread -

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?142331-Let-s-talk-about-quest-qualification&p=2073571#post2073571

I hit upon an idea I wanted to share in a more visible way. The idea is the Foundry as a marketplace. That's right kids, we're gonna use economics to help the Foundry flourish!

The idea is simple: Add an advertising space in the Foundry search tool. This advertising space is like any other web site with ads, except it only advertises Foundry modules that the community has produced.

How does one get their module featured in this space you ask? You pay for it! In AD of course. Perhaps PWE sells this space in units of impressions (fancy marketing talk for how many times it shows up), or clicks, or length of time. But the end goal is that Foundry Authors are investing in their modules to get them out before the players.

"But why would anyone give up hard earned AD to advertise a module, especially after they've worked so hard on it?" I'm glad you asked! Because I'm proposing a second component to this formula, AD stipends for Authors.

The second part of this idea is that PWE starts rewarding Foundry Authors with a daily stipend of AD. This stipend would be based on the number of unique players that play that Author's module each day. So the more popular a module is, the more the Author is rewarded for creating it.

What's the best way to make a module popular? Make it *great*! And you may have noticed that I'm proposing that each day a player comes back you get rewarded again? That's right, loyal players who want to play your content again and again are worth *more* to Authors. (They're the gift that keeps on giving!) That means you should also focus on *replay* value if you want to get the most out of your investment!

So now there's a reason you'd want your module in front of as many players as possible! Because the more players that are playing your module, the more AD you rake in. What better way to reward yourself for all your hard work?

And that's really the point of all this you see. We should always be providing an incentive to the creative minds behind the awesome content we've yet to see come out for this game! And now Authors who really put the time in to make a spectacular experience for the players will be rewarded for taking that time!

Also those *new* Authors who want to break through, and who obviously believe that what they've built is also great, have a way to get *their* content front and center! The AD they're spending is an investment, not only in the content they've passionately spent time and energy developing, but also in the dividends that come from achieving popularity among the player base with their awesome module!

And this system is self reinforcing. Talented Authors who are building great modules are rewarded with a regular income of AD, which they can use to advertise follow up modules, without having to spend time farming for it. That allows them to focus on continuing making *awesome* content!

So there you have it. I wanna hear thoughts, impressions, here's how it could work better, and most importantly "This is now our team's top priority." (heh)

- Zesban

EDIT:
In an interesting development it would appear that there's at least a former Product Director(www.linkedin.com/in/hunterwalk/) at Google who thinks this model applies in a similar situation, the iOS App store -
http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130424060343-7298-promoted-apps-could-native-advertising-come-to-ios-app-store
Post edited by thetruezesban on
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Comments

  • zaphtasticzaphtastic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'll be blunt... I don't like this. Now, this doesn't mean this idea wouldn't work, or it wouldn't be effective in getting people to play quests. But I, personally, would not want to create content in this environment.

    First, some history. In COH there were some authors who paid people to play their arcs in the quest to 'break through' (and 'breaking through' took quite some effort... you needed 100+ plays with a 5-star average to even show up on the radar). It was a very effective way of advertisement -- certainly several orders of magnitude more effective than just posting on the forums about your new arc! There were some who just paid x inf (currency) to people who left a comment on the arc straight up. Others held raffles with high-end prizes (such as rare set enhancements, which'd be the equivalent of endgame gear), and even trivia contests (where you actually had to have played the arc to be able to answer the question). These were very much in the 'grey area' of arc promotion for me, and why I'd understand the reasons for doing it, I could never bring myself to do the same for my own arcs. Near the end of COH's life there was talk of some authors actually giving out real-world rewards, and that was the point where I covered my ears and started going "lalalalala". I'm not sure if it ever came to pass, but the fact it was actually seriously considered was a huge red flag for me... and it was an indictment of the system, not the authors who came up with the idea.

    Here's the thing. I am making content for an online game for free, and relinquishing all copyright while doing so. I'm doing this during my free time (a LOT of free time, if you're talking about a good quest). This is all fine -- I know what I signed up for, and it's really not that different from making a mod for Skyrim or whatever. But when I'm expected to do actual ingame marketing to even get people to play my content... that crosses a line for me. Even if there was only the weekly AD stipend for each author (which could not be spent on anything else, I presume), this adds a layer that most authors wouldn't know what to do about...

    Some other potential issues depending on implementation details:
    • If you allow authors to spend their own AD for marketing, you end up with pay-to-win. There'll be lots of authors with - I'll go ahead and say it - mediocre quests but great amounts of AD to spend on promoting the product, and this'll overwhelm the authors with a great 'product', but little clout for advertisement.
    • Similarly, if AD tips from players to authors ever become substantial enough to sustain an advertisement campaign (as of BWE4 they aren't), the 'rich get richer' concept is exacarbated even more. You have popular quests raking in AD, which the authors use to promote their other quests... which will also get popular and rake in even more AD. This system should help new/unknown authors get noticed, not cement the pedestal of a handful of Foundry rock stars!
    In closing, consider what kind of content most players want (which directly feeds into the entire popularity bit). Not authors, not us people posting in the Foundry forums... actual average players. It's not going to be quests with intricate storylines or awesome dungeons... it's going to be 'farming' quests that have just enough content in them to qualify for the daily AD reward, and are extremely easy to complete. This has been the case in both the COH MA and the STO Foundry so far, I see no reason why NW would be any different.

    Again, this all is my personal opinion. I'm sure a lot of people would love this system... but for me, it crosses a line I don't want to cross in my MMO UGC authoring efforts. Just sayin'.
  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    zaphtastic wrote: »
    I'll be blunt... I don't like this. Now, this doesn't mean this idea wouldn't work, or it wouldn't be effective in getting people to play quests. But I, personally, would not want to create content in this environment.

    First, some history. In COH there were some authors who paid people to play their arcs in the quest to 'break through' (and 'breaking through' took quite some effort... you needed 100+ plays with a 5-star average to even show up on the radar). It was a very effective way of advertisement -- certainly several orders of magnitude more effective than just posting on the forums about your new arc! There were some who just paid x inf (currency) to people who left a comment on the arc straight up. Others held raffles with high-end prizes (such as rare set enhancements, which'd be the equivalent of endgame gear), and even trivia contests (where you actually had to have played the arc to be able to answer the question). These were very much in the 'grey area' of arc promotion for me, and why I'd understand the reasons for doing it, I could never bring myself to do the same for my own arcs. Near the end of COH's life there was talk of some authors actually giving out real-world rewards, and that was the point where I covered my ears and started going "lalalalala". I'm not sure if it ever came to pass, but the fact it was actually seriously considered was a huge red flag for me... and it was an indictment of the system, not the authors who came up with the idea.

    Here's the thing. I am making content for an online game for free, and relinquishing all copyright while doing so. I'm doing this during my free time (a LOT of free time, if you're talking about a good quest). This is all fine -- I know what I signed up for, and it's really not that different from making a mod for Skyrim or whatever. But when I'm expected to do actual ingame marketing to even get people to play my content... that crosses a line for me. Even if there was only the weekly AD stipend for each author (which could not be spent on anything else, I presume), this adds a layer that most authors wouldn't know what to do about...

    Some other potential issues depending on implementation details:
    • If you allow authors to spend their own AD for marketing, you end up with pay-to-win. There'll be lots of authors with - I'll go ahead and say it - mediocre quests but great amounts of AD to spend on promoting the product, and this'll overwhelm the authors with a great 'product', but little clout for advertisement.
    • Similarly, if AD tips from players to authors ever become substantial enough to sustain an advertisement campaign (as of BWE4 they aren't), the 'rich get richer' concept is exacarbated even more. You have popular quests raking in AD, which the authors use to promote their other quests... which will also get popular and rake in even more AD. This system should help new/unknown authors get noticed, not cement the pedestal of a handful of Foundry rock stars!
    In closing, consider what kind of content most players want (which directly feeds into the entire popularity bit). Not authors, not us people posting in the Foundry forums... actual average players. It's not going to be quests with intricate storylines or awesome dungeons... it's going to be 'farming' quests that have just enough content in them to qualify for the daily AD reward, and are extremely easy to complete. This has been the case in both the COH MA and the STO Foundry so far, I see no reason why NW would be any different.

    Again, this all is my personal opinion. I'm sure a lot of people would love this system... but for me, it crosses a line I don't want to cross in my MMO UGC authoring efforts. Just sayin'.


    Thank you for your thoughtful analysis.

    First, I'd like to say this is the beginning of an idea, not the final implementation. This isn't a reality yet, and yes there are ways it could be abused. That's where I'm looking for input on how to improve upon it. I can see where you'd be discouraged by behavior you've seen in the past, but I'd venture to say that it was the symptom of a poorly regulated market, and not a side effect of economics at work.

    Second, promoting a product does not equate to consumption of a product. Just because something is advertised does not invariably mean that people will start buying it. If that were the case Windows 8 would be killing it right now. =)

    Ratings of the content should still be available to people even in advertised space, so that the consumer is aware of what's being advertised. That's because the purpose of this is to give exposure to products that *could* become popular. Products that are already popular also already have a market place designation, as evidenced by the top modules section of the search tool.

    Also, I'd recommend that PWE regulate the amount of time, space, whatever you want to call it, that Authors have access to in the advertising section of the Market. Perhaps space increases exponentially in price as you try to buy more in a given period, to where it's obviously unsustainable.

    As to the "rich getting richer" that again implies that the income from such an endeavor would make someone an "AD billionaire" or somesuch. If this became possible I'd again argue that this was implemented poorly/incoorectly. Since the purpose is to encourage Talented Authors to continue to contribute and ease their time investment so they have the time to do so, if it were to reward to a point of beyond needing to contribute it'd work counter to its stated goal. The rewards should be enough to be pleasant, and to help offset the advertising of their next module. It should by no means be a Neverwinter retirement plan.

    As to your final point, of what players want, I'd again refer to the excellent source of web based marketing. Advertising only has value to consumers if it is informing them of products or services that they would find useful. This is why Google has *all* the money (that's right, *they* win). That's because they figured out that when people are looking for a thing, if you offer to sell them that thing, they are happy and you have money. So they gave exactly that to people who want to sell things and asked for money. Yay money! But this means we can apply the same concept here -
    1. Add tagging to modules
    2. Allow players to search for tags
    3. Target advertising of modules based on tags searched
    4. Watch as many market segments emerge and Authors' advertised works start reaching the players they designed it for
    5. Profit!

    Again, more beginnings to ideas! Let's keep it coming! We can make the Foundry not just an awesome feature, but the reason people *flock* to play this game!

    - Zesban
  • drakedge2drakedge2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    As a future content writer, I feel that the foundry quests should stand on the merit of people's enjoyment of the content. Not how much AD I spend on it. The other poster said it best.
    8IxArUQf.jpg
    A story driven quest, with a fun and challenging amount of combat, that takes you into the world of Planescape, carefully hand crafted by me.
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    I wont let anyone advertise on my quests. flat out.

    After i put a ton of hours into something fantastic, the only company or logo or anything else going on it is Cryptic.

    Unless they pay me, and then my greed will win, but that isnt gonna happen.

    EDit: I reread it, and this is Dungeons and Dragons. You are out of your mind.

    I am a talented author, but i dont want to stop people from playing quests that others just put out, and are excited about. There is no way in the history of this game that your advertisement idea will happen. that isnt DnD. That is another mmo somewhere else.
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  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    drakedge2 wrote: »
    As a future content writer, I feel that the foundry quests should stand on the merit of people's enjoyment of the content. Not how much AD I spend on it. The other poster said it best.

    I completely agree that any content should stand on it's own merit, but there is the problem of exposure of new content.

    The question is, how best to separate the content that people are experimenting with, have published just for them/their friends, have made just for grinding, or the Author is just plain not that proud of but can't bring themselves to unpublish from the content that players truly believe the community, or some sub section of the community will truly enjoy?

    And I think zaphtastic very clearly enumerated the ways that come about when the Authors are left with no tools for doing so otherwise.

    The idea here is to provide Authors a way to do just that. It's also a way to offset the cost of doing so and provide a feedback mechanism in to that system. And it also regulates what is introduced, and the amount of exposure that is provided, by using a combination of regulating the limits of what is exposed and market forces to provide a fair platform for exposure.

    The *merit* of the content is already well represented by the ratings the community provides. And there's already a perfectly functional market for that in the form of the top modules section of the Foundry marketplace as well. But that only provides a place for established content to be discovered.

    This is to solve a different problem.

    So let's hear it! What are some other ways we can solve this problem? Or what are some ways we can improve on the proposal I've put forward to make it more fun/palatable/fair/rewarding/useful/effective/etc...?

    - Zesban
  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I wont let anyone advertise on my quests. flat out.

    After i put a ton of hours into something fantastic, the only company or logo or anything else going on it is Cryptic.

    Unless they pay me, and then my greed will win, but that isnt gonna happen.

    EDit: I reread it, and this is Dungeons and Dragons. You are out of your mind.

    I am a talented author, but i dont want to stop people from playing quests that others just put out, and are excited about. There is no way in the history of this game that your advertisement idea will happen. that isnt DnD. That is another mmo somewhere else.

    This has nothing to do with advertising on your quest. This has to do with giving you a way to advertise your quest to other players. =)

    EDIT: Ok, now I'm really confused? How is this any different than seeing an ad in Dungeon Magazine for a Mongoose or AEG adventure module? It's precisely how D&D has flourished for almost 40 years!

    If you need a way to RP it think of it as "Tipping the Bards to sing your tale of woe in taverns across the Sword Coast, in hopes that a Brave Knight or Bold Sorcerer will heed the call to adventure and come some day to right the wrongs heard in your story of sorrow."

    Oh! I really like that actually! Instead of calling it an advertising space, call it the "Bard's Stage." Thanks for getting me thinking of Role Play ways to introduce it!

    - Zesban
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    Yea, i did the reread. lol. I had to do it twice cuz the first time i was yelling at a kid to go to sleep. This time i can give you my undivided attention. The foundry is a tool given to the world by Cryptic for free to make all the stuff your heart desires, but it isnt some sort of advertising tool.. If you want to advertise, there are already a ton of tools to do so, such as the demorecord demoplay options, that allow you to record custom views of all your stuff, with a camera that is free of the action. These files can be used to do anything you want to with.. screenshots, videos, etc. advertisements.. whatever. The actual foundry itself should never contain any advertisements, except the featured quests. EDIT: maybe not anything you want .lol. like you cant go try and make money with it.
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  • drakedge2drakedge2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    But I don't feel that it will solve a problem but rather create one.

    Lets say hypothetically that the Planescape campaign I am writing for the foundry is the next coming of RPG dom since torment.

    Now lets say trolfacelolo writes a dungeon crawl that gives people mad xp and is a one dungeon room. People play his quest a lot and tip him tons of AD. He then places an ad using that AD to advertize his quest and bam more people more ratings more rewards.


    He spends millions, i spend a 25,000 AD as using normal rewards and such, and my quest is still on the bottom of all lists.


    There should be a "popular this week" "popular this month" "highest rated" "newly created" filtering section rather than ads.
    8IxArUQf.jpg
    A story driven quest, with a fun and challenging amount of combat, that takes you into the world of Planescape, carefully hand crafted by me.
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    Im kinda confused by the concept that you want to spend AD on a quest.. you can donate, if you like a quest, but you dont have to.

    As for the number of tips a person receives, that is based on the enjoyment. there are safeguards in place to prevent abuse by shorter crappy content.
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  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    Like you cant write a 4 minute killfest, and get rewarded very well. its gonna go by a lot of variables, but average length is the most important factor in deciding a reward.. if it is under 15 minutes, you arent getting much.
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  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Yea, i did the reread. lol. I had to do it twice cuz the first time i was yelling at a kid to go to sleep. This time i can give you my undivided attention. The foundry is a tool given to the world by Cryptic for free to make all the stuff your heart desires, but it isnt some sort of advertising tool.. If you want to advertise, there are already a ton of tools to do so, such as the demorecord demoplay options, that allow you to record custom views of all your stuff, with a camera that is free of the action. These files can be used to do anything you want to with.. screenshots, videos, etc. advertisements.. whatever. The actual foundry itself should never contain any advertisements, except the featured quests. EDIT: maybe not anything you want .lol. like you cant go try and make money with it.


    Precisely. And this is a way to give new content creators a way to get their quests "featured."
    drakedge2 wrote: »
    But I don't feel that it will solve a problem but rather create one.

    Lets say hypothetically that the Planescape campaign I am writing for the foundry is the next coming of RPG dom since torment.

    Now lets say trolfacelolo writes a dungeon crawl that gives people mad xp and is a one dungeon room. People play his quest a lot and tip him tons of AD. He then places an ad using that AD to advertize his quest and bam more people more ratings more rewards.


    He spends millions, i spend a 25,000 AD as using normal rewards and such, and my quest is still on the bottom of all lists.


    There should be a "popular this week" "popular this month" "highest rated" "newly created" filtering section rather than ads.

    That's the point of regulating the market. He shouldn't ever be allowed to spend millions in the first place. And secondly, he shouldn't be making millions. That's why instead of running the rewards through player tips, it should be a reward distributed by, and controlled by, PWE.

    Also that's why tagging would be such an important component. When people search for content tagged similar to how your module is tagged yours should be the advertisement that is shown.

    The other critical concept here is that advertising wouldn't be a list you'd be ranked on. Your 25k determines how much exposure you get, relative to what others have invested. But when your module is advertised, your module is the one that is front and center. It's *not* surrounded by other content, not even trolfacelolo's.

    If you've tagged your module "Planescape, Role Play, Epic" and trolfacelolo has tagged his "Grind, XP, Trollface" then when players come and search for "Epic Role Play" modules your advertisement shows up, not his.

    The end goal is to increase the exposure of new content. And better yet, target it to those who would be most interested. It feels like we want to same thing. I'm just looking for how to solve it. And since market forces solve exactly these problems time and again in the real world I feel they're probably going to be effective here as well.

    But I'm open to other ideas, or feedback on how to improve on this idea.

    - Zesban
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    A better idea is to offer incentive to try the new quests, and take all of that out of the equation. such as a reward for reviewing new content. Way less convoluted.
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  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Like you cant write a 4 minute killfest, and get rewarded very well. its gonna go by a lot of variables, but average length is the most important factor in deciding a reward.. if it is under 15 minutes, you arent getting much.

    This is a very good point. I think that the rewards that are doled out should scale with the complexity and effort of the module.

    Along these lines I think the rewards should also be distributed along a bell curve for the number of players that are engaging in a module. The first few players don't reward a lot, but likewise an exceptionally large number of players begets diminishing returns beyond a "sweet spot" where the reward per player is maximized.

    So no matter how many players are playing the module on a given day, your reward income is effectively limited to something *still* rewarding, but not unreasonable or system breaking. This helps to prevent the "AD billionaire" concern that keeps coming up.

    Limiting it further by the complexity of the module tends to normalize the rewards between shorter and simpler modules and the longer and more complex ones, so that Authors aren't producing "one shot wonders" to try to maximize the income they can receive, but can equally focus on longer and more complex modules for similar rewards.

    - Zesban
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    If you rock at the foundry, and people like your stuff, there is no reason to limit the tips. you can only get 100 per person, so expecting a lot is a bit presumptuous.
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  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    A better idea is to offer incentive to try the new quests, and take all of that out of the equation. such as a reward for reviewing new content. Way less convoluted.

    While this gives players an incentive to go looking for new content, it does nothing to bring content forward, nor give players a costly way to vouch for their content, which helps separate the "because I coulds" from the "because I think it could be greats."

    So it doesn't increase how discoverable new content is, it only creates more earnest to look for it.

    Further, it doesn't incite Authors to create content, only players to try content being created. I think it's important to give Authors as many reasons as possible to create great content! The merit of a job well done is great! Getting "paid" to also have done a job well is also great! More incentives, I would hope, leads to more quality content being generated.

    - Zesban
  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If you rock at the foundry, and people like your stuff, there is no reason to limit the tips. you can only get 100 per person, so expecting a lot is a bit presumptuous.

    The tips don't become an issue until they become leverage for getting your content out there. Once they do, as drakedge2 keenly pointed out, it becomes a matter of the rich getting richer. This is an unregulated market that slides in to an unhealthy monopoly. And there creativity stagnates, and intellectual property contributers seek shelter from the monopoly, rather than contributing to the market.

    That's exactly what I think we'd all prefer to avoid.

    And as zaphtastic pointed out, the creators that truly do want the fame will create that market by themselves. But if PWE creates one for them, then it can also regulate it. Which helps prevent this from happening, just as a government, which can regulate currency and trade, can keep unhealthy monopolies like the old telecoms and older oil conglomerates, from dominating a market.

    - Zesban
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    The foundry is its own reward. lol.. trust me. whether people play it or not is beside the point. I see you want to get stuff out there, but the best way to do that, is to make something they want to play.

    There is no bellcurve to being awesome.
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  • zaphtasticzaphtastic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Like I said, I understand where you're going with this idea, and see its merits. It's just that if this was actually implemented, I'd probably stop creating content. I have done adwords campaigns at work (as a primary stakeholder / project manager assisting our marketing/sales team), and I don't want that kind of busywork in my volunteer UGC efforts. This is completely separate from the merits of the system (or lack thereof).

    Now, tags are obviously a must... but that's unrelated to the entire advertisement bit. If you check the post linked in my sig, you'll see that I consider tags an absolute must as the primary way of players finding content that matches their expectations (I have elaborated on the system further in the silverstar forums, I may post that here later after OB starts and we get a clearer picture of how the system works in practice). As far as I know, adding tags is something everyone agrees on (authors, players, devs, everyone), and they WILL be implemented in the future. Tags provide all the segmentation you need by themselves, if the system is implemented well. As long as the player can narrow down his preferences to a list of 100 quests, the star rating system can actually be fairly efficient in separating the wheat from the chaff... and providing all of those 100 quests with plays. This is not the case with 100000+ quests. I don't see the advantage of adding an advertisement layer on top of that.
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    There are no issues with creative content. If you use a famous character in your quest, you wont be featured. simple as that. However, you may feel free to do with them as you wish, for your own enjoyment.

    EDIT: you wont be stopped from publishing content with famous copyrighted characters, to the best of my knowledge, but if you do use them, you automatically preclude yourself from any sort of reward.. or something like that.. i forgot how it is worded.
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  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The foundry is its own reward. lol.. trust me. whether people play it or not is beside the point. I see you want to get stuff out there, but the best way to do that, is to make something they want to play.

    There is no bellcurve to being awesome.

    Actually just making a product people want has never been enough. If it ever had been there'd be no such thing as advertising. Even if you have the world's best product, you still need to let people know about it. =)
    zaphtastic wrote: »
    Like I said, I understand where you're going with this idea, and see its merits. It's just that if this was actually implemented, I'd probably stop creating content. I have done adwords campaigns at work (as a primary stakeholder / project manager assisting our marketing/sales team), and I don't want that kind of busywork in my volunteer UGC efforts. This is completely separate from the merits of the system (or lack thereof).

    Now, tags are obviously a must... but that's unrelated to the entire advertisement bit. If you check the post linked in my sig, you'll see that I consider tags an absolute must as the primary way of players finding content that matches their expectations (I have elaborated on the system further in the silverstar forums, I may post that here later after OB starts and we get a clearer picture of how the system works in practice). As far as I know, adding tags is something everyone agrees on (authors, players, devs, everyone), and they WILL be implemented in the future. Tags provide all the segmentation you need by themselves, if the system is implemented well. As long as the player can narrow down his preferences to a list of 100 quests, the star rating system can actually be fairly efficient in separating the wheat from the chaff... and providing all of those 100 quests with plays. This is not the case with 100000+ quests. I don't see the advantage of adding an advertisement layer on top of that.

    I think this is where we disagree. I think with only the Star rating system, you'll eventually end up with the top rated modules in most segments, and players will just stick to those. Most new content will reside at the bottom of those searches, largely untouched, as the cream has already risen, to continue your metaphor.

    And so eventually getting your module discovered will become more and more difficult. The point of an advertising system is to tackle the problem from the other end. So that you have contention between the unrated but new content and the highly rated but relatively old content for presense in front of the players.

    But if you just implement a "New Stuff" category, which there already is, it becomes a gamble as to the quality of what one would experience when trying something from it out. So there needs to be some system to let players vouch for the quality of their content. This is where the cost component comes in. If you truly think your module *is* good, you'll have no problem plunking down some AD to make the point. And now players browsing the new stuff see "Oh well this person wouldn't drop money to show me some crappy module they threw together." It builds trust through sponsorship.

    But now you have a sink, and that's drawing resources in to it. So that sink needs to be replenished. Do we want content creators spending their time farming in the game to be able to afford to sponsor their content? I don't. I'd rather see the same effort that they put in to creating the content be able sustain their sponsorship of their content.

    It's all about creating visibility to the stuff that's newly coming in and trust in its quality. And if no system is introduced and the Star rating system is the only thing in place creators will simply invest their AD to have people rate their content highly, falsely, to get the same effect. (I'm looking at you CoX.)

    I'd rather there be a fair and regulated way for this to happen then, rather than some wild and free system where you can't really trust the quality of what you're about to commit time to, and will more often be disappointed by the result. And I'd rather that system be automated, so that PWE can focus resources on enhancing the core experience of the game, but still allowing a marketplace of great content to thrive!

    - Zesban
    (I seriously need to go to bed, it's past 2 here. I'll look forward to continuing to improve on this idea with the community tomorrow. Already there's been some great points and some key ideas that have been touched on. Thanks all!)
  • zaphtasticzaphtastic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If the player knows that the quest he's about to play is intended to match his expectations, that's already a pretty huge advantage compared to playing noname quest #4278436 on the 'new quest' list... but yes, of course you'd need incentives to get new content played (hence my mention of 'good implementation of a tagging system'). To continue on that track, there have already been multiple suggestions. Sharable favorites lists, Amazon-style "If you liked this, you may also like" recommendations, viewing friends'/guildies' recent playlists (as filtered by tags), the ability for player reviewers to find and uncover new 'cool' content (maybe even being rewarded for it), just plain rewards for playing new/untested content, etc etc. I don't believe that straight up advertisement would resonate with the players more than these, especially when you consider that a lot of gamers may feel apprehensive towards in-game advertising (even if it's about actual in-game stuff) and/or just tune advertisements out entirely.

    These methods I just listed are all community-driven and give exposure to new content without requiring the authors to invest their ingame AD (in addition to having already invested 100+ hours of their time) to get their content noticed. They also don't require a skillset that is completely different from what is used normally to create content. How many hobbyist authors know how to create a proper marketing campaign, or use advertisement to good effect instead of it just getting ignored? It's the same thing with auction house moguls in MMOs -- some people live for controlling the market, most people don't. And that's what keeps auction house moguls moguls.

    And I suspect at this point we'd have to agree to disagree. ;)

    edit: Though I'll say this -- I'm probably coming across as too harsh, and in that case I apologize. This is all just my opinion, and it is very possible that a well-implemented ingame quest advertisement system would be absolutely awesome for getting new content the exposure it deserves. It's just that, like I said, I'm very negatively predisposed towards the entire concept of quest advertising and marketing. Even in COH all I did was post in the requisite forum threads (without any fancy video trailers or fan art), which predictably didn't get me many plays at all.
  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    My suggestions are far more simple. give them a daily to review new quests, with a smaller reward, but beside the daily for the bigger rewards. Once a quest gets 20 plays, it is done being reviewed, anyway.. 20 might be off. but there is a definate number, and then it moves up. A system that provides incentive to try the review quests doesnt need to be complicated.. people want shinies. lol. thats it.
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  • thunderspankerthunderspanker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Silverstars Posts: 713 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    The only way to monopolize the foundry is on youtube, lol. and then you have to make it compelling, funny, or tragically a failure anyway.

    Oh, and i wanted to apologize for not being long winded with you.. i certainly can open an avalanche of words if i want to, but i choose to be straightforward, and not convoluted. when i say something, it is very easy to understand, by any intelligence level. This superhuge writeup makes me wonder what you expect from this game, and whether you even know what Dungeons and Dragons is, or what a dungeon master is.
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  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I read the first few posts, but then stopped.

    This thread is based on the wrong idea to begin with: the want to have your work float to the top of the pile.

    Here's the fact: the *best* Foundry quests (like STO Foundry missions) are always the one where the author didn't care if it was Featured, or how visible it is or how many people play it. The *best* Foundry content is created by authors who create theat content with a passion for no reason other than they love it.

    There is an old saying in stage production (and progresses through the Hollywood industry): Do it for the art in you, not you in the art. Those actors and stage hands who do it for no reason other than they love it (not for the money or popularity of it) always turn out to be the best.

    Foundry authors: forget the idea of being "Featured" and forget the idea of becoming among the most popular Foundry quests with a bazillion plays and floating to the top of the search results. Rather: focus on *what you love*. Make the quest for *yourself* - not anyone else. When you do this you will naturally make it perfect. it will never be "good enough". Even the slightest minute detail will not be missed.

    When you do this, *that* is when people will notice, and the play-counts will happen, and though you'll get some one or two star reviews initially, the satisfaction comes from the hundreds of five star reviews when others who like what you like find you and follow you (subscribe to you under Foundry subscriptions tab).

    This should never be a popularity game. Advertising of any kind just goes to show everyone that whomever it is doing the advertising thinks it's about popularity. It just shouldn't be about that in my view.

    Just my too-sense, your mileage may vary.
  • chili1179chili1179 Member Posts: 1,511 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'll be short and sweet.

    DO NOT WANT.

    If for no other reason than what was said in this post:
    drakedge2 wrote: »
    I feel that the foundry quests should stand on the merit of people's enjoyment of the content. Not how much AD I spend on it..


    No.
    There is a rumor floating around that I am working on a new foundry quest. It was started by me.
  • zaphtasticzaphtastic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I read the first few posts, but then stopped.

    This thread is based on the wrong idea to begin with: the want to have your work float to the top of the pile.

    Here's the fact: the *best* Foundry quests (like STO Foundry missions) are always the one where the author didn't care if it was Featured, or how visible it is or how many people play it. The *best* Foundry content is created by authors who create theat content with a passion for no reason other than they love it.

    There is an old saying in stage production (and progresses through the Hollywood industry): Do it for the art in you, not you in the art. Those actors and stage hands who do it for no reason other than they love it (not for the money or popularity of it) always turn out to be the best.

    Foundry authors: forget the idea of being "Featured" and forget the idea of becoming among the most popular Foundry quests with a bazillion plays and floating to the top of the search results. Rather: focus on *what you love*. Make the quest for *yourself* - not anyone else. When you do this you will naturally make it perfect. it will never be "good enough". Even the slightest minute detail will not be missed.

    When you do this, *that* is when people will notice, and the play-counts will happen, and though you'll get some one or two star reviews initially, the satisfaction comes from the hundreds of five star reviews when others who like what you like find you and follow you (subscribe to you under Foundry subscriptions tab).

    This should never be a popularity game. Advertising of any kind just goes to show everyone that whomever it is doing the advertising thinks it's about popularity. It just shouldn't be about that in my view.

    Just my too-sense, your mileage may vary.
    For all I'm saying about popularity here and there, I agree with much of this. BUT there's a significant caveat.

    Most authors do, in fact, want to have their work played and enjoyed by others. They may not want to be top-of-the-pile, and that's exactly the point -- EVERYONE but the most extreme (and impossibly rare) idealist wants a fair chance to get their content played, get feedback on it, and use it to improve their future work.

    If you're an author, you put your heart and soul (not to mention countless hours of your free time) into creating fun for others only to have NONE of it played or even noticed, what are the chances you'll keep making new content? Because this is exactly what happened in COH. I am not posting endlessly about the browse/search/rating systems because I want to make sure the "right people end up on top of the pile" -- I want to make sure everyone gets a fair shot. Otherwise you have several hundred thousand quests in a pile, no way to find the actual good stuff among them, and all those silent authors making good content (without much in the way of advertising) quietly dropping off. And that road leads to what happened to the COH MA.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    zaphtastic wrote: »
    For all I'm saying about popularity here and there, I agree with much of this. BUT there's a caveat.

    Most authors do, in fact, want to have their work played and enjoyed by others. They may not want to be top-of-the-pile, and that's exactly the point -- EVERYONE but the most extreme (and impossibly rare) idealist wants a fair chance to get their content played, get feedback on it, and use it to improve their future work.

    If you're an author, you put your heart and soul (not to mention countless hours of your free time) into creating fun for others only to have NONE of it played or even noticed, what are the chances you'll keep making new content?

    All quests will always get played. It's also a reason to to be friendly with guilds (whether your a member or not) - they will play your quests. My rhetoric was primary in response to the idea of advertising - as a *basic rule of thumb*. When I think advertising, I do not include blog posts or home-grown video trailers on YouTube or Vimeo and that stuff. I'm referring to paid adverts, regardless of how it's paid for (in-world currency or the real deal).

    Just to be clear on my previous comment. :)
  • zaphtasticzaphtastic Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    All quests will always get played.
    Well, that's what I'd like, too... but it's really not what actually happened in COH. Yeah, you could get quests played by your friends and guildies (who'll probably like it, because they're your friends and guildies). You may even get a handful of plays from reviewers by explicitly asking them to. And... that's it, unless the system offers ways for your content to get discovered. But I know RoBoBo and the other devs are very much aware of that and have several features in the pipeline that'll help. And that's what keeps me going!

    I fully agree with you wrt advertising btw... like I said, if this game will have paid advertising (even if paid with ingame money), I'm out... regardless of the actual effect of the system.

    (Sorry for veering a bit off-topic here, I have a tendency to do that :P)
  • tilt42tilt42 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Any system that encourages an author to manipulate his way to the top of the quest list, whether through advertising or outright payments, gets two thumbs and two big toes down from me. Do not want. Not now. Not ever.
  • thetruezesbanthetruezesban Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I wonder how many read about this idea and think they're getting pop ups on their screen or something? The idea is that this featuring would reside in the search tool. The word advertising is used to draw a parallel, but it seems it's being taken too literally. I'm not suggesting advertising in exclusion of Top Modules, Tagging, or any other component. But I am suggesting using it to enhance the search tool.

    The thing that really astounds me here is how people are using the fear of a popularity contest as an argument against a system like this. This is a system that's meant to give new Authors a voice loud enough to be heard over the *already* popular ones. Almost all of the suggestions here by others provide incentives for players to search *for* new content, but provide absolutely no increased visibility of new to content to players. (With the exception of viewing friend's/guildie's recently played modules, which is an awesome idea.)

    The tagging makes it easier to search for content, which is also great. But even among the segments the highly rated content will be the content that is used, and most modules will just languish unnoticed.

    I'd like to avoid the type of scenario seen time after time in other games: A year from now, players only use the same 5 modules 95% of the time. Just like Big Game Hunters from Starcraft. Just like DotA from Warcraft 3. Just like Team Fortress. (All UGC from other games that did not have enhanced visibility and discoverability systems, so most people stuck to that and only that UGC because in each case it was the one they knew they'd like.)

    How many people played "I am Slayer" during BW4? And how many people tried one of the hundreds of other modules that were around? You already see this trend happening, and it's a great way to stagnate the creativity output of the community.

    Now what I'd really like to see are some more responses like zaphtastic, which lay out good points, offer other solutions if in disagreement, and generally contribute to solving the problem of visibility of new content. I think suggestions around getting players to try new content are off topic in this thread, as this thread's focus is on how to give Authors tools on getting that visibility, not on the incentives for players to try new modules.

    PS
    And thank you for the personal attack on my history as a role player and dungeon master. I'll let the 15 years of DM experience and thousands of hours of entertained players and stories that get retold from the well crafted and articulated scenarios that I've had the pleasure of leading reassure me that I do know what D&D is about. =)

    - Zesban
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