Good for curse. They got the rights to post the official wiki, doesn't mean their info is up to date yet, if you read the post, says that they'll be supplying info over the coming weeks. And as wiki's go, they're not always the best source of info. Anyone with access can alter info.
Pass some popcorn this way.
I visit that wiki frequently and I can say this much.
1) Their info is absolutely not up to date, yet. Some of that stuff has been there since CB3 before the powers changed.
2) They are working on it daily. Every time I check back I see a little bit here or there done. But rather than working on one class at a time, they are working on all of them at once. I think we really will not know in time "officially" from Cryptic for open beta.
Honestly I am just going to study, read, and look at everything before I spend a single point in anything. I am going to hover over every tool tip before I even walk down the beach and get my gear. I am going to check my stats prior to the character entering the world and after to see that everything meshes up.
From what I have seen in CB4 I can see several viable specs for the GWF. I think we will never be = to the Guardian because their guard meter is going to smash our mitigation and on top of that they can self heal and threat gen circles around us. That is the one huge weakness in the GWF tank build, threat. I expect some buffs to that and fairly soon. Other than that one issue, we should be way more offensive than the Guardian, and I also believe with our dex and boosts to armor and defense we can easily rival them in non block mitigation / avoidance.
That being said there is no doubt that there is two very distinct PvE damage builds. One down the destroyer line and one down the instigator line. And of course there is some pretty interesting PvP builds. I believe if we build solely for PvP that our combination of offense, defense, mobility, and control could be a real handful for any class we come up against.
Offensive builds need slight love. I am not sure why they nerfed our str bonus damage feat. That just did not make sense at all to me.
Defensive builds need some threat love, especially AoE and on demand threat gen.
PvP is a whole different animal and I really don't know the other classes well enough in PvP to really say if we need anything there, but it seems good from what I can see.
Edit: For instance I just looked at the Curse wiki, and they now have the 0.5 DR per Con removed on the class page, but it is still up on the Constitution page for GWF. Slowly it will become reliable as they work with Cryptic to get it all up to date. But it definitely is not all there yet.
0
dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Can already see chat. LFM for party , no GWF please.
Let me ask, out of sheer curiosity, would such definition - if it was official - bother you personally?
There is no concrete definition. It's like the main page GWF description, does http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=859381
"With a never-ending thirst for combat, the Great Weapon Fighter charges into battle any given opportunity – recklessly at times. Similar to other classes like the Trickster Rogue or Guardian Fighter, the timing of your attacks is essential for any combat situation."
Honestly that statement is comparing apples to oranges, are the able to become either class, or are we orples or appanges. No one wants to play a bad hybrid, no one. If we can become either class great! If we are trying to be both at the same time, not a full dps but not a full tank either, then yes, I'd like to know before I invest time in the class, because I could find another class in that case.
could you please link said post because i can't find it for the life of me and in the same vein of OP's post would love some clarification on the subject as open beta is 6days3hours and 29mins away:(
It was a moderator.
The one who's forum name looks like he randomly slammed his face into a keyboard and hit enter.
I'm still a bit fuzzy on why they decided on the GWF in the first place. I suspect there might be some debate between the devs on how "Primal Magic" they want to make Barbarian, but it's gonna be hard to differentiate a more mundane Barbarian from a GWF in terms of playstyle. They even have "Unstoppable" which might as well be called "Rage" and give the guy hide armor instead of mail. Boom, barbarian.
Then they could reduce his survivability, expand his single-target damage options, and call him a Striker. Easy peasy.
(...) No one wants to play a bad hybrid, no one. If we can become either class great! If we are trying to be both at the same time, not a full dps but not a full tank either, then yes, I'd like to know before I invest time in the class, because I could find another class in that case.
That's fair enough. I think nobody wants to play a bad class, hybrid or not, though if you think that there is nobody that would like to play a semi-tank semi-dps then you are in for a surprise .
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I believe I've read a PW/red (whatever you call them here?) post saying that GWF will be outdpsed by rogues becuase it's a dps/tank hybrid - as in: capable of both at the same time but not really master at either, rather then being able to master either with proper spec. That seems pretty clear to me, you can steer it a bit more towards one extreme or the other, but you will not deal as much dps as a rogue or be tough as a GF, and that's perfectly fine.
That was me formed based on my knowledge and understanding of D&D and the classes as they felt to me.
Also another notable difference which is pertinent for discussions about this topic is that the rogue is mainly single target attacks while the GWF is mainly AoE.
They are different. You shouldn't expect the GWF to behave the same as a rogue.
Both are strikers but the GWF has much more sustain. Rogues do more damage...to a single target. Comparitively players and developers alike can argue which is better and at the end of the day nobody will be right or wrong.
That was me formed based on my knowledge and understanding of D&D and the classes as they felt to me.
Also another notable difference which is pertinent for discussions about this topic is that the rogue is mainly single target attacks while the GWF is mainly AoE.
They are different. You shouldn't expect the GWF to behave the same as a rogue.
Both are strikers but the GWF has much more sustain. Rogues do more damage...to a single target. Comparitively players and developers alike can argue which is better and at the end of the day nobody will be right or wrong.
I wouldn't expect 2 classes to play the same. Though I wouldn't expect 2 strikers to be all that different in regards to role expectations, regardless of AoE or Single target distinction. Ultimately they'll be judged by the amount of damage they contribute to an instance, PvP or PvE.
I'm still a bit fuzzy on why they decided on the GWF in the first place. I suspect there might be some debate between the devs on how "Primal Magic" they want to make Barbarian, but it's gonna be hard to differentiate a more mundane Barbarian from a GWF in terms of playstyle. They even have "Unstoppable" which might as well be called "Rage" and give the guy hide armor instead of mail. Boom, barbarian.
Then they could reduce his survivability, expand his single-target damage options, and call him a Striker. Easy peasy.
I can only speculate, but my guess is that the game design elements that are not DnD, the Jack Emmert 1,000 adds of death thing, made the group dynamic over emphasize the role of the controller from what PnP normally has. Therefore they added in two controllers at launch. One a pure control specialist and one a secondary that can either focus in defense or damage to compliment the control element that they bring to the group. It seems like they also added in a lot of control elements to the Guardian Fighter and Devoted Cleric as well. Really when 4 of the starting 5 classes feature major control elements in the game it pretty much tells you everything that you need to know about the most important dynamic for success in a group.
To be fair PnP does indeed emphasize this quite a bit, I just think the Jack Emmert school of MMO design takes it a step further.
I could be completely off base on this too and they may have just wanted to wait until they unveiled the drow race to the public to put the ranger melee striker in.
One thing I am confident in is the AoE damage aspects of the class. IMO the GWF should dominate the damage meters based on that add nature of fights and the way they are built to do control damage. I don't think we will ever have to worry about being a "striker". The defender aspect is the part falling seriously short right now. The class really needs more grouping and aggro gain aspects to them in order to handle the adds. We also need normal, every day, threat gain instead of this threat on critical junk. The only way I am left to interpret it in the current form is that they must also want the defenders to out damage every other class in order to be an effective defender, because we sure don't have any other options to generate threat.
I wouldn't expect 2 classes to play the same. Though I wouldn't expect 2 strikers to be all that different in regards to role expectations, regardless of AoE or Single target distinction. Ultimately they'll be judged by the amount of damage they contribute to an instance, PvP or PvE.
That is the difference though, strikers do single target damage and controllers do AoE damage. So they are not both going to be strikers if one does single target and the other does AoE damage.
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silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
That is the difference though, strikers do single target damage and controllers do AoE damage. So they are not both going to be strikers if one does single target and the other does AoE damage.
That's why I'd love some official clarification for the class vision. I wouldn't go so far as calling our AoE damage a controller element, but more of a strikers. But as you say above every class gets elements of the other roles, we even have a self heal strike and some debuffs, but i wouldn't go so far as to classify us as a leader. I'd rather be more akin to the Barbarian, but that in itself would be a contradiction for the defensive play styles as barbarians aren't really good defenders.
So is this it? we aren't going to get a damage boost? this is where we stand? its Ret paladins/DAoC paladins/DnDO paladins/Tera berserkers all over again. *SIGH*
Pinkamena Diane Pie - Great Warrior Fighter
One, two, Pinkie's coming for you, three, four, you better lock your door, five, six, grab your crucifix, seven, eight, gonna stay up late, nine, ten, never party again.
So is this it? we aren't going to get a damage boost? this is where we stand? its Ret paladins/DAoC paladins/DnDO paladins/Tera berserkers all over again. *SIGH*
That is OK, I will play their crappy class and suck up groups all across Faerun! I really hope that they do a better job of eventually getting stuff balanced and leaving it alone. Unlike Blizzard who did a flavor of the month patch to continually change the class balance. If Cryptic does that it will not be good. They need to get this right and get it right by the time open beta is over. Players are not going to tolerate constant adjustments when a respec token will not address racial choices and starting ability scores.
That is OK, I will play their crappy class and suck up groups all across Faerun! I really hope that they do a better job of eventually getting stuff balanced and leaving it alone. Unlike Blizzard who did a flavor of the month patch to continually change the class balance. If Cryptic does that it will not be good. They need to get this right and get it right by the time open beta is over. Players are not going to tolerate constant adjustments when a respec token will not address racial choices and starting ability scores.
Being that crappy class is going to be hard to get in groups unless you're the group leader.
Pinkamena Diane Pie - Great Warrior Fighter
One, two, Pinkie's coming for you, three, four, you better lock your door, five, six, grab your crucifix, seven, eight, gonna stay up late, nine, ten, never party again.
Can I necro this thread once people complain about GWF being overpowered at level 60?
As long as Cryptic balances the class, there shouldn't be any issue amongst any of the Striker classes. That said, balancing that out will take time as new damage dealing classes get added. I'm not expecting instantaneous balance, but so long as the long term vision is that any striker is interchangeable, just as any defender should be interchangeable or any controller or leader is interchangeable.
Not sure what the issue is with the GWF, I had many groups in the beta 4 lvl 52 dungeon that had a GWF, and i didn't feel my group was gimped at all. They did good damage while assuming a competent off-tank role, allowing us to mow down mobs with great efficiency.
Being that crappy class is going to be hard to get in groups unless you're the group leader.
Hardly. Just Queue up for whatever Dungeon/Skirmish/PvP you wanna play and you'll get plugged in a group. Nobody is going to bother booting you from a PUG.
0
silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
Hardly. Just Queue up for whatever Dungeon/Skirmish/PvP you wanna play and you'll get plugged in a group. Nobody is going to bother booting you from a PUG.
That's how I'm going to play the game. I've joined a Guild but my gaming schedule isn't going to be organized around it. I'll play when I wanna play, group when I wanna group, and the Queue system means I don't need to worry about finding groups/getting kicked from groups. Easy peasy.
People are making way to much of this issue. Every dev interview I've read or listened to states that the GWF does great dps. The class also has a paragon path that's designed for tanking. Cryptic employees have also stated that they have tons of metrics that they keep a close eye on. It's pretty obvious, using basic deductive reasoning skills, that the class is intended to be a hybrid. And it will be able to fill both tanking and dps roles. If not initially, then it will be retuned so that it's able to do so. I tend to believe Cryptic metrics way more than I believe people's opinions that are based on very limited play times.
In summary, if you enjoyed the way the class played in beta, go ahead and play it. The sky is not falling. Everything will be just fine.
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silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
edited April 2013
Well thankfully, come end of week, people will see what the current version of GWF is, and most of the speculation will end. Hard to argue with game play.
People are making way to much of this issue. Every dev interview I've read or listened to states that the GWF does great dps. The class also has a paragon path that's designed for tanking. Cryptic employees have also stated that they have tons of metrics that they keep a close eye on. It's pretty obvious, using basic deductive reasoning skills, that the class is intended to be a hybrid. And it will be able to fill both tanking and dps roles. If not initially, then it will be retuned so that it's able to do so. I tend to believe Cryptic metrics way more than I believe people's opinions that are based on very limited play times.
In summary, if you enjoyed the way the class played in beta, go ahead and play it. The sky is not falling. Everything will be just fine.
At this point I think people are just bored. Not to mention that I myself, get pretty bipolar about the GWF, I love it! I hate this! Ohhh this is cool! This sucks! Really I think it is just all of us sorting things out in our heads. BTW I do agree that they can fill an AoE damage role or defender role depending on how they are built. I am a bit skeptical about the threat generation on the defender and they definitely messed things up with Dex being superior to Con, that is if we don't get DR off of Con.
All in all there is a couple of speculative points, and as you said, I am counting on Cryptic to make adjustments down the road, namely to the threat mechanics in the Sentinel Paragon.
0
silknightMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 199
At this point I think people are just bored. Not to mention that I myself, get pretty bipolar about the GWF, I love it! I hate this! Ohhh this is cool! This sucks! Really I think it is just all of us sorting things out in our heads. BTW I do agree that they can fill an AoE damage role or defender role depending on how they are built. I am a bit skeptical about the threat generation on the defender and they definitely messed things up with Dex being superior to Con, that is if we don't get DR off of Con.
All in all there is a couple of speculative points, and as you said, I am counting on Cryptic to make adjustments down the road, namely to the threat mechanics in the Sentinel Paragon.
I concur, so much to like about the class, yet so much not too. We'll have to see what it boils down too once it goes open. Waiting doesn't make it any easier, and the speculation just goes round in circles.
Comments
I visit that wiki frequently and I can say this much.
1) Their info is absolutely not up to date, yet. Some of that stuff has been there since CB3 before the powers changed.
2) They are working on it daily. Every time I check back I see a little bit here or there done. But rather than working on one class at a time, they are working on all of them at once. I think we really will not know in time "officially" from Cryptic for open beta.
Honestly I am just going to study, read, and look at everything before I spend a single point in anything. I am going to hover over every tool tip before I even walk down the beach and get my gear. I am going to check my stats prior to the character entering the world and after to see that everything meshes up.
From what I have seen in CB4 I can see several viable specs for the GWF. I think we will never be = to the Guardian because their guard meter is going to smash our mitigation and on top of that they can self heal and threat gen circles around us. That is the one huge weakness in the GWF tank build, threat. I expect some buffs to that and fairly soon. Other than that one issue, we should be way more offensive than the Guardian, and I also believe with our dex and boosts to armor and defense we can easily rival them in non block mitigation / avoidance.
That being said there is no doubt that there is two very distinct PvE damage builds. One down the destroyer line and one down the instigator line. And of course there is some pretty interesting PvP builds. I believe if we build solely for PvP that our combination of offense, defense, mobility, and control could be a real handful for any class we come up against.
Offensive builds need slight love. I am not sure why they nerfed our str bonus damage feat. That just did not make sense at all to me.
Defensive builds need some threat love, especially AoE and on demand threat gen.
PvP is a whole different animal and I really don't know the other classes well enough in PvP to really say if we need anything there, but it seems good from what I can see.
Edit: For instance I just looked at the Curse wiki, and they now have the 0.5 DR per Con removed on the class page, but it is still up on the Constitution page for GWF. Slowly it will become reliable as they work with Cryptic to get it all up to date. But it definitely is not all there yet.
Don't worry.
If you create a char and chose a shard it will say.
Beholder (Devoted Cleric, Guardian Fighter, Trickster Rogue, Control Mage)
Dragon (Devoted Cleric, Guardian Fighter, Trickster Rogue, Control Mage)
Mindflayer (Great Weapon Fighter)
See, easy fix.
Part 1: NW-DMFKR9RPL http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427711-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-1
Part 2: NW-DLBTN8W28 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?444281-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-2
Icewind Dale campaign Osthafen sehen & sterben (German)
NW-DMC3IOWAE http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?477201-Osthafen-sehen-amp-sterben
There is no concrete definition. It's like the main page GWF description, does http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=859381
"With a never-ending thirst for combat, the Great Weapon Fighter charges into battle any given opportunity – recklessly at times. Similar to other classes like the Trickster Rogue or Guardian Fighter, the timing of your attacks is essential for any combat situation."
Honestly that statement is comparing apples to oranges, are the able to become either class, or are we orples or appanges. No one wants to play a bad hybrid, no one. If we can become either class great! If we are trying to be both at the same time, not a full dps but not a full tank either, then yes, I'd like to know before I invest time in the class, because I could find another class in that case.
It was a moderator.
The one who's forum name looks like he randomly slammed his face into a keyboard and hit enter.
Then they could reduce his survivability, expand his single-target damage options, and call him a Striker. Easy peasy.
That's fair enough. I think nobody wants to play a bad class, hybrid or not, though if you think that there is nobody that would like to play a semi-tank semi-dps then you are in for a surprise
That was me formed based on my knowledge and understanding of D&D and the classes as they felt to me.
Also another notable difference which is pertinent for discussions about this topic is that the rogue is mainly single target attacks while the GWF is mainly AoE.
They are different. You shouldn't expect the GWF to behave the same as a rogue.
Both are strikers but the GWF has much more sustain. Rogues do more damage...to a single target. Comparitively players and developers alike can argue which is better and at the end of the day nobody will be right or wrong.
I wouldn't expect 2 classes to play the same. Though I wouldn't expect 2 strikers to be all that different in regards to role expectations, regardless of AoE or Single target distinction. Ultimately they'll be judged by the amount of damage they contribute to an instance, PvP or PvE.
I can only speculate, but my guess is that the game design elements that are not DnD, the Jack Emmert 1,000 adds of death thing, made the group dynamic over emphasize the role of the controller from what PnP normally has. Therefore they added in two controllers at launch. One a pure control specialist and one a secondary that can either focus in defense or damage to compliment the control element that they bring to the group. It seems like they also added in a lot of control elements to the Guardian Fighter and Devoted Cleric as well. Really when 4 of the starting 5 classes feature major control elements in the game it pretty much tells you everything that you need to know about the most important dynamic for success in a group.
To be fair PnP does indeed emphasize this quite a bit, I just think the Jack Emmert school of MMO design takes it a step further.
I could be completely off base on this too and they may have just wanted to wait until they unveiled the drow race to the public to put the ranger melee striker in.
One thing I am confident in is the AoE damage aspects of the class. IMO the GWF should dominate the damage meters based on that add nature of fights and the way they are built to do control damage. I don't think we will ever have to worry about being a "striker". The defender aspect is the part falling seriously short right now. The class really needs more grouping and aggro gain aspects to them in order to handle the adds. We also need normal, every day, threat gain instead of this threat on critical junk. The only way I am left to interpret it in the current form is that they must also want the defenders to out damage every other class in order to be an effective defender, because we sure don't have any other options to generate threat.
That is the difference though, strikers do single target damage and controllers do AoE damage. So they are not both going to be strikers if one does single target and the other does AoE damage.
That's why I'd love some official clarification for the class vision. I wouldn't go so far as calling our AoE damage a controller element, but more of a strikers. But as you say above every class gets elements of the other roles, we even have a self heal strike and some debuffs, but i wouldn't go so far as to classify us as a leader. I'd rather be more akin to the Barbarian, but that in itself would be a contradiction for the defensive play styles as barbarians aren't really good defenders.
That is OK, I will play their crappy class and suck up groups all across Faerun! I really hope that they do a better job of eventually getting stuff balanced and leaving it alone. Unlike Blizzard who did a flavor of the month patch to continually change the class balance. If Cryptic does that it will not be good. They need to get this right and get it right by the time open beta is over. Players are not going to tolerate constant adjustments when a respec token will not address racial choices and starting ability scores.
Being that crappy class is going to be hard to get in groups unless you're the group leader.
As long as Cryptic balances the class, there shouldn't be any issue amongst any of the Striker classes. That said, balancing that out will take time as new damage dealing classes get added. I'm not expecting instantaneous balance, but so long as the long term vision is that any striker is interchangeable, just as any defender should be interchangeable or any controller or leader is interchangeable.
yeah or if u dont play whit friends looking party for it on chat would take long time
Hardly. Just Queue up for whatever Dungeon/Skirmish/PvP you wanna play and you'll get plugged in a group. Nobody is going to bother booting you from a PUG.
That's hardly the right solution.
That's how I'm going to play the game. I've joined a Guild but my gaming schedule isn't going to be organized around it. I'll play when I wanna play, group when I wanna group, and the Queue system means I don't need to worry about finding groups/getting kicked from groups. Easy peasy.
In summary, if you enjoyed the way the class played in beta, go ahead and play it. The sky is not falling. Everything will be just fine.
At this point I think people are just bored. Not to mention that I myself, get pretty bipolar about the GWF, I love it! I hate this! Ohhh this is cool! This sucks! Really I think it is just all of us sorting things out in our heads. BTW I do agree that they can fill an AoE damage role or defender role depending on how they are built. I am a bit skeptical about the threat generation on the defender and they definitely messed things up with Dex being superior to Con, that is if we don't get DR off of Con.
All in all there is a couple of speculative points, and as you said, I am counting on Cryptic to make adjustments down the road, namely to the threat mechanics in the Sentinel Paragon.
I concur, so much to like about the class, yet so much not too. We'll have to see what it boils down too once it goes open. Waiting doesn't make it any easier, and the speculation just goes round in circles.