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Please use the B2P model, because F2P SUCKS
voqar
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Please use the buy 2 play model where players must buy the box for some amount, rather than going all out free to play.
You get money from every player and can still pillage players thru the store.
But the real reason F2P is the worst thing ever is because games that are F2P have the worst players and the worst communities.
When players are paying nothing, they have no reason to behave, no reason to care, and the most immature and lame players gather.
If you make players pay a nominal fee for the box they are at least somewhat invested and may care about being banned or prevented from playing (and hey, you'll actually have money to pay for customer support to GET RID of the crappy players too) and may care about the game somewhat, instead of logging in to be immature, grief, and/or just not give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
RaiderZ (another perfect world game) is/was plagued by gold spammers in every zone, with so many in the cities that you couldn't use public chat at all, because spammers were spamming literally nonstop over each other. If gold selling scumbags had to pay for boxes instead of just making free account after free account, the spam would be less. AND if you charge for the box you can afford customer service to remove bots AND to pay developers to accomplish the monumental feat of eliminating gold spam from chat (something that gets done in lots of other games or via player made addons - but not in F2P, because the devs don't care and/or can't afford to to it).
I just logged in to Tera to see how it was shaking after going F2P and it's a nightmare. General chat is filled with immature morons going on nonstop about who knows what. I sometimes wonder WHY some people log on to MMORPGs because they surely can't actually be PLAYING when they are spamming chat incessantly with juvenile idiocy. Anyways. I logged off after about 2 minutes since disabling all public chat to avoid childish players isn't really acceptable and I don't want to be in a game filled with immature and subhuman brats. Much like I quickly couldn't take RaiderZ because the quality of players is ultra low and gold spammers were completely out of control.
F2P is all around garbage. Less money up front for devs, with some players surely never paying a cent, and it's a disaster for community since you will definitely get the bottom of the barrel of scumbags who don't want to pay for their entertainment and/or feel like free games are an excellent avenue for griefing or carrying on like children since in the unlikely event that they get reprimdanded or removed, they have nothing to lose and don't care.
B2P is all around win. Sure money for the devs up front. Players are at least marginally invested and might give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about the game.
F2P doesn't really accomplish much if you get a bunch of people who either never pay or who make the game experience worse for other players.
F2P models tend to be more obnoxious since it's the ONLY revenue stream for the game and devs definitely have to hook game features and/or content into money. I would rather see designers/devs focus on making games better, not figuring out how to monetize gameplay.
B2P ensures some revenue and usually features less obnoxious cash shop hooks moving forward. Win for all.
You get money from every player and can still pillage players thru the store.
But the real reason F2P is the worst thing ever is because games that are F2P have the worst players and the worst communities.
When players are paying nothing, they have no reason to behave, no reason to care, and the most immature and lame players gather.
If you make players pay a nominal fee for the box they are at least somewhat invested and may care about being banned or prevented from playing (and hey, you'll actually have money to pay for customer support to GET RID of the crappy players too) and may care about the game somewhat, instead of logging in to be immature, grief, and/or just not give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
RaiderZ (another perfect world game) is/was plagued by gold spammers in every zone, with so many in the cities that you couldn't use public chat at all, because spammers were spamming literally nonstop over each other. If gold selling scumbags had to pay for boxes instead of just making free account after free account, the spam would be less. AND if you charge for the box you can afford customer service to remove bots AND to pay developers to accomplish the monumental feat of eliminating gold spam from chat (something that gets done in lots of other games or via player made addons - but not in F2P, because the devs don't care and/or can't afford to to it).
I just logged in to Tera to see how it was shaking after going F2P and it's a nightmare. General chat is filled with immature morons going on nonstop about who knows what. I sometimes wonder WHY some people log on to MMORPGs because they surely can't actually be PLAYING when they are spamming chat incessantly with juvenile idiocy. Anyways. I logged off after about 2 minutes since disabling all public chat to avoid childish players isn't really acceptable and I don't want to be in a game filled with immature and subhuman brats. Much like I quickly couldn't take RaiderZ because the quality of players is ultra low and gold spammers were completely out of control.
F2P is all around garbage. Less money up front for devs, with some players surely never paying a cent, and it's a disaster for community since you will definitely get the bottom of the barrel of scumbags who don't want to pay for their entertainment and/or feel like free games are an excellent avenue for griefing or carrying on like children since in the unlikely event that they get reprimdanded or removed, they have nothing to lose and don't care.
B2P is all around win. Sure money for the devs up front. Players are at least marginally invested and might give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about the game.
F2P doesn't really accomplish much if you get a bunch of people who either never pay or who make the game experience worse for other players.
F2P models tend to be more obnoxious since it's the ONLY revenue stream for the game and devs definitely have to hook game features and/or content into money. I would rather see designers/devs focus on making games better, not figuring out how to monetize gameplay.
B2P ensures some revenue and usually features less obnoxious cash shop hooks moving forward. Win for all.
Post edited by voqar on
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Guild Wars has always been a decent game. Not the best thing in the world, but decent. I have seen more spammers and arsehats in that game than even WoW though. So it is all based upon experiences.
B2P might be awesome for you.... but my experience with it is effin horrible. Want to support the game? Buy a pack and pretend it's B2P. You get enough in it to cover it and as a side bonus you still will have new people coming into the game.
Sure there are some downsides but as long as the company truly makes the game free to play and not pay to play/pay to win I have had an all around far better expereince on free to play games. There are also a large number of benefits to both players and developers you completely neglected such as increased availability.
A game with a box price can easily be overlooked by people who don't want to invest money in a game they don't know whether they will enjoy or not. I know I personally have shrugged off even trying certain games which have had a box price because I am most often happy plaaying a different MMO. That's why all the MMO's have gone the freemium route, the box price became a huge barrier to attracting a new player base.
MMO's simply don't work well with box prices. Box Priced items work for games which are meant to be played for a month or two and then die such as Skyrim. MMO's survive through the years by continually rotating players. Old players go and new players fill their spots. This is why the subscription model ultimately went the way of the dinosaur...
Paying up front limits the influx of new players and with so many other MMO's to play the box prices and subscription plans cause players to skip to other MMO's without such a high start-up cost.
So to sum it up, I wouldn't completely discredit the notion of b2p games.
Sure gold spammers are annoying but its not something that truly ruins a game in my opinion. And on that note B2P wouldn't get rid of gold spammers even World of Warcraft has gold spammers, and we all know that's a S2P.
As for people ruining in F2P that happen in ALL mmo games, its inevitable to get a few "bad eggs" when so many people are in one area.
And as for tera the population has doubled since F2P, in my eyes that's a success sure more people to ruin the game but potentially that much more to add to the games experience and depth.
But there are points i would agree with you on but as for this game i think the developers have a lot more to offer than most other games and will take the time to care and really cater to there players needs and wishes.
I could have never said it better myself ! Great reply.
PS: I just turn off Global chat and never see gold spammers and enjoy the game with my guild.:D
This. All this.
Skyrim: I feel ripped-off. $60 ($70 after taxes, etc.) - Got about 10 hours of play before becoming *completely* bored with it. Star Trek Online: $40 (or whatever it was) PLUS a subscription? Hell NO. I said no and I meant it. Screw that noise. HOWEVER a friend in the beta gave me a friend key that gave me 30-days of play. I came, I saw, I liked. I refuse the subscription model entirely (for ANY game, hence never have, never will play WoW) so I bought a Lifetime purchase at $300. Cryptic got a helluvalot more from me (and I'm still happy about it.) than some $60 box. It was going to FOLD (go defunct, in trouble financially, Atari gave up on it) until Perfect World acquired and turned it free to play. Now it's thriving leaps and bounds over and above what it was and that's better for everyone.
As STO slowed down for me (12 characters at or near level 50) I decided to look at Champions Online. Never would have given it a thought if it were B2P or still on subscription. So I came, I saw, I liked. Second Lifetime purchase from me. I'm still happy with that purchase and I have decided to throw-in with Cryptic (trust-wise) - hence my purchase of the Hero Founder's Pack: even though NWO is 100% F2P and not a conversion, I *wanted* to show Cryptic my support, that I have faith in their stuff and I'm "all-in" on this one.
Were the subscription thing still going I'd be playing STO and never would give Champions or Neverwinter even the casual blink of an eye.
So, sure, the "issues" you mention can be problematic. But in STO and CO I rarely if ever see *any* of what you (the OP) describe.
Am I "in Cryptic's pocket"? Meh. Call it want you want. The simple fact is the onus is on Cryptic to turn-out great quality stuff or the people won't bother staying or paying. This is win-win for US, the players and for Cryptic. It's try before you buy and the best part is that buying is 100% optional all the way around.
But I also know F2P is the future, gamers spend (on average) spend much more than 15 a month on a F2P game than they do B2P. It's a big money win for gaming companies, all the while keeping your active participant numbers nice and high.
I don't like it, but money talks and F2P is big $$$.
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I have actually hated most every b2p/subscription based game nowadays mainly because their cash shops are more pay to win than the free to play games being released in the last two years.
I actually was a huge Runescape player, yes throw the insults now, but they went from making a stand against including micro-transactions to adding micro-transactions which outright made my years of work meaningless. This is the story of many other boxed/subscription based games. There's just too much money in micro-transactions...but typically these games are too <explicitly deleted> to understand paying for power pisses off the loyal fanbase.
When a game is free to play and easy to walk away from the micro-transactions have always tended to be either more affordable and/or easier to ignore. Because there is no money invested outright or over time with a subscription it puts *more* pressure on developers to not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off the player-base because the immediate result is that the game is easier to walk away from.
The developers have been keeping a close eye on RaiderZ. They saw what happened to the game and are taking a lot of precaustions to avoid a duplicate result in Neverwinter. The issues which plague RaiderZ is a shame but they have assured the Community Moderators it was a huge learning experience.
Careful with this though, business models quickly change and if your only defense of NWO right now is that "it's more like League of Legends", then you may need to assess again 6 to 9 months down the road.
Let's be honest, what gaming companies do today, change radically in 9 months after release and the game is starting to wither.
What particularly concerns me about Cryptic's F2P is that it transient and volatile. Not only does the shop expand but the currency bloats and shrinks, based on demand (and the exploitation of that demand). It sucks that behind the game is a commodity/currency market and what Cryptic declares "will never be sold" today, could wind up on the market 6 months from now.
In fact, I predict something goes on the market shortly after launch or right at launch that upsets this very forum. Because if it will make money Cryptic will sell it. At and often at very high prices too, because Cryptic's MO right now is charging a LOT of money for things as simple as wanting to dye your armor a different color. Look at weapon customization for one, I really believe NWO is setup to cost players a lot of money if they want a different kind of weapon than the boiler plate variants found in the game.
But I also need to recognize and respect that this is just how MMOs finance themselves now. And people pay and they pay big time. That's just how it is and because I value and support games like NWO and greatly admire the time and skill it takes to create them, I'll go along. But I miss the days of paying 15 a month to have anything and everything the game can offer.
One more thing, let's not rip too hard into the business model of games like City of Heroes. I understand how and why you made the point and it is a relevant and truthful one. But let's put a caveat on it too. City of Heroes lasted a very long time and if there is a MMO Hall of Fame, City of Heroes belongs in it. I think NWO would DREAM of lasting as long as City of Heroes did, or having the impact it did. In fact, I'll go so far to say that without City of Heroes we'd have no NWO today. It was the grandfather of the very game we are now so excited to play.
F2P works, it works because overall, on average you bilk more than 15 a month out of your player base. It creates obscure currency systems to really hide just how much you pay for certain items and in Cryptic's case creates a volatile market to make sure those values fluctuate.
It's allowing games like NWO to be made in the first place, which I am grateful for. But I'd by lying if I didn't say I'd prefer a subscription.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Want to know why Neverwinter is so laggy? Check out the "Latency" section in this thread.
And about normal spamming, I mean really, people some people just like doing that, or are bored, or are trolls, or are what ever you want to think. Its the nature of the way people act when there are no real world consequences for their duchebagery.
One detriment to having currency in the game that's directly purchased through real dollars, is it can increase credit fraud substantially. World of Tanks was riddled with it, so was Magic the Gathering Online. So fraud shifts from farming in-game currency, to swiping accounts with real money currency and swiping cards/codes to purchase that currency.
Again, I think F2P is clearly here to stay, so there's not much point in resisting that. It works, big time, because of how it is set up. I find it funny though that a gaming community that was adamantly against micro-transactions 5 years ago, is now singing its praises. To me, it's just a money grab, but then again, gaming companies could use it. It's actually a lot tougher to make money in video games than I think some fans realize.
Just again, don't get too married to the idea that NWO will be like League of Legends. That's not Cryptic's history and it's certainly not the history of MMOs. Watch how quickly this forum turns on the current model, once some of the things show up for sale, particularly as the numbers dwindle in the later months after release.
I defend the F2P choices made with NWO, but I also have my eyes wide open, this will be a very expensive game to play for most of us, who enjoy a custom/tailored experience. If you don't recognize that, I think you're going to be more miffed than pleased as the game progresses.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
I agreed with everything you posted but I quoted what resonated with me the most.
F2P wasn't created because the devs want a lot of people to play (well, that's not totally true but not because of the kindness of their hearts). It was created because it has the most potential to generate high revenue. Those who end up truly loving Neverwinter and end up playing for a long time will find they will most likely spend more than $15/month over the long haul.
Some people spend nothing on comics but follow the free media which surrounds them. Some people set limits on their comic books or only follow certain aspects...
But there are a few people who go all out and spend an exuberant amount on comics like Jack Emmert.
Sure there's more money in it for them from some people. I know I have paid League of Legends more than a subscription rate even though when I joined I laughed thinking I wouldn't spend a dime. Heh...
I don't think that's pure greed though. Sure certain players will spend more..but others won't. In the end they will win even if there's just a bunch of people playing the game without paying because an empty MMO is a dead MMO...and that's the main reason MMO's went freemium.
And that's the important bit. NWO could have gone freemium like some of you seem to want and be little worse off. But I see that and all I hear is: get every annoyance of a subscription rate (pay me or you can't play) with all the negatives of a free game (cash shop)
Bottom line is pure subscription games can't survive anymore because players will simply play the free games before they try a pure subscription game. The day WoW went freemium to play was the day everybody in the world should have known the pure subscription plan kicked the can. SWToR proves this point loud and clear.
Since the pure subscription game kicked the can, and this is not arguable because SWToR tried very hard to not be freemium or free to play, the options are clear...have the worst of both worlds or have the worst of one. I'll take complete and utter free to play any day...
At least then I can choose what to pay rather than be told a base rate + the free to play model.
In all honesty, some of you talk like the subscription plan solves a lot. I see it as nothing but a limitation...a way to guarantee money. I don't see any bright side to it...
Freemium games, in my mind, don't give better or more frequent content than F2P games. In fact I feel F2P games have to supply better and more frequent content simply to retain their player base. Except for your fears of Pay to Win which exists just as much in a Freemium Game with their nonsensical subscription plans there's really little downside to a true free to play game.
NW will be using a single server architecture. There will be no themed servers.
I disagree with this comment. I think subs have failed recently because recent MMOs have been subpar. They all tried to copy WoW and failed, although I believe Rift still has subs.
And WoW is not freemium. You can play the trial to level 20 but you have some major restrictions, such as limited gold, unable to join guilds, chat limits, no trading...and much more.
It's a no-win situation until the next huge new innovation comes out. I'm hoping that will be the inclusion of UGC into the MMO environment.
And wow is a freemium game now.
Play for a while...hit a wall...subscribe to continue.
In some freemium models this wall is avoiding a grindfest. In others it's a literal wall like in WoW.
Freemium is a Premium Game (subscription based) with free content to draw players in. DDO, STO, WoW and CO are a few which are Freemium.
Free to Play games are cash shop only. Neverwinter will be Free to Play. Currently League of Legends is the only big name game which is iconic of the Free to Play marketing strategy as it became defined in recent years.
.. and IP bans work pretty well with 'free to make account scheme' Sure there are proxies and spoofing, but its far more limited.
The result of Dynamic IP Addresses is that banning a Dynamic IP can inadvertantly ban an innocent person.
Example 1: I get banned, spoof my IP and still play but a month later my IP Changes anyway. My neighbor happens to get my old IP and is suddenly IP Banned from the game for no reason. Not good for anybody involved
Example 2: I am and have always been a very honest player. I wouldn't steal from anybody and would sooner raise a helping hand than a hand in malice. My brother on the other hand tends to....well...not be a very nice person. He ends up doing stupid stuff and gets IP Banned. I often live in the same household as him so...while he might be justly banned they also banned a Forum Mod who has done nothing wrong. Also very bad.
Thus IP bans are avoided by virtually every big company in the world. The sad truth of the matter is that there is no way to reliably ensure you can ban a person with IP's or Mac Addresses so it is avoided. The notion of IP Banning is something which is most commonly waved around by those unfamiliar with network administration.
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Getting good content to players in the Foundry - challenges and solutions
Handle: @zaphtastic
I still say "ugh" out loud whenever I see those WoW adverts claiming "WoW is free for up to level 20" because that's simply what we used to call as a free trial!
Pretty sure they are good enough to work that one out.
Cryptic was made for F2P. It always produced games that were really a little off from the mainstream. STO and CO had their fans, but they were never "juggernauts" and the money they spent to develop them significantly less than what EA dumped into SWTOR and at times, that shows in the final product.
Cryptic's only real problem is it didn't jump on F2P fast enough. Champions should have been F2P from the start (I say that as someone who stopped playing 30 days after it switched, in other words as someone who wasn't happy at all at the switch, but recognize it helps the game tremendously).
So F2P suits this level of MMO nicely, you can bump up the amount of money per active player significantly and even better, you can often do it with a lower threshold and cost of development. This is particularly true once your game gets rolling. You can 3D model some nice shirts, or some cool looking chainmail and make bank, which is significantly less time and money than coming up with an entire new expansion pack, or entire new zones.
I like how F2P gave us more competition, more variety and gave gaming companies a business model that made NWO viable.
But if I were to take the economic argument out of it, I'd much rather just pay 15 a month and have access to everything NWO offers. I tend to spend far less that way and I tend to stay invested longer. But that's just me. The thing is, I am not alone, F2P tends to spur a lot of us to splurge and binge at first, then slowly fade away. But the beauty of F2P is that you're constantly recruiting new blood, to repeat the cycle.
The model works and it is here to stay.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!