Buying the equipment (or in this case, weapons, which is the only thing you equip in the game) does not offer an advantage over other players because every weapon that is sold in the item shop is also obtainable without spending any money at all, and are all side-grades anyways. Cash shops are going to be about cosmetics and CONVENIENCE aka "spend real money to unlock this now" or "spend money to get more exp to help you unlock things quickly".
That's pay to win.
Downright pay to win. Not good.
I could use that argument in any game with a rare drop...let's sell the rarest, hardest to get and most powerful item. It's not pay to win because you can kill the hardest boss in the game and have a 1/2,000 chance for the drop.
Pay to Win is simply player defined as something which gives an excessive edge over another player by paying money. Of course the line between convenience and pay to win is subjective but that's a concept 90% or more (honest) players would say is pay to win.
Not only has it been confirmed that business practice won't make it into Neverwinter but if it does you'll see me as the first to leave. Pay to win games are something most every person in the gaming community has lost patience for.
That's pay to win.
Downright pay to win. Not good.
I could use that argument in any game with a rare drop...let's sell the rarest, hardest to get and most powerful item. It's not pay to win because you can kill the hardest boss in the game and have a 1/2,000 chance for the drop.
Pay to Win is simply player defined as something which gives an excessive edge over another player by paying money. Of course the line between convenience and pay to win is subjective but that's a concept 90% or more (honest) players would say is pay to win.
Not only has it been confirmed that business practice won't make it into Neverwinter but if it does you'll see me as the first to leave. Pay to win games are something most every person in the gaming community has lost patience for.
I know it has been stated that there will be no subscription plan for NWO, but I'm curious how many players would like that option?
I must admit I'm pretty new to FTP....and i'm still not totally on board with the concept. I've paid for a monthly MMO since Everquest first came out, and often more then one at a time over the years (sometimes even 3). To me, if i'm playing a game more then 15 hours a month, it's worth $15 to me (well as long as i'm enjoying myself while playing it hehe).
Dungeons and Dragons online was my first experience at FTP, and I have maintained a VIP account there still (Even though I've now purchased most of the content as well. I must admit i'm a bit scared by the whole FTP..since I don't really know how much it's going to cost to play the game. Obviously games are making a profit since it's becoming more and more common to see games go FTP, but are players still getting as much value?
Would you want a $15 monthly plan for NWO that gives you access to everything. Enough character slots for every class available (1 slot for each class), every class as it's released and say 30k astral diamonds a month?
You can already kinda of do this. I will be purchasing $20 (2,000 Zen) worth of Zen every month. To me this is $20 to support the game that I enjoy playing. Now what this converts to as far as AD, we don't know yet and wont until the game is released. It may be enough for exactly what you are suggesting.
Rigas
Rigas Crimstone, Officer
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Again, I would too. I like 15 dollars a month getting me anything and everything the game has to offer, period.
But those days are gone. F2P's genius is that it obscures how much you really pay for things. (You spend 72 dollars (plus tax) on 1250 diamonds and then you spend 170 diamonds on something, is not an equation most can do in their head).
It also provides an illusion that you can earn it all by just dedicating a lot of time to play, but usually that time is obscured too, you don't really realize it's going to take you 200 hours to earn that digital hat, until you are deep in the grind to earn it. At which point, the company hope you bail and just cough up the 8 bucks.
MMOs used to be buffets, you'd pay 15 dollars and you could eat anything on the menu as much as you like. Gaming companies have figured out that it's better to have prices for each menu item. Oh and if you want, you can go wash dishes in the back for 100 hours and we'll give you a free cheeseburger.
Good news is F2P stops distribution piracy, as in it no longer matters how/where you download the client. That's a positive thing, because the solutions to inhibit unpaid for distribution (like not being able to copy a game to multiple clients, or some kind of authorization mechanism to prove you bought the game), are a pain. So that whole fiasco is going the way of the dodo.
Retailers suffer, but I guess Best Buy just has to be content with selling "Unicorn Diamond Cards" on their pegs, rather than a big colorful box that says, "I have a really cool game inside".
But it brings up another point, my F2P account is more valuable than ever when its jacked up with 100 bucks worth of "Unicorn Diamonds" or whatever it is that is the supreme pay currency in the game. How does Cryptic protect that for me? Will they use things like Google Authenticator?
I know these solutions aren't fool-proof either, but because this design rewards high purchase up front (100 dollars get you way more "Rainbow Money" dollar for dollar than 10 dollars), then I want that protected.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Any of you people old enough to remember Mega Wars III on the compuserve network? Now that was expensive to play, at $6 an hour. Fear the cost of some of the first "MMO's".
I think aol or something had pay by the hour games as well. I avoided those like the plague since I had already been playing online games for years (Lands, crossroads etc on BBSs, and muds through telnet and tinyfugue etc (started with batmud/stickmud back when they came out). I already knew how many hours you could sink into an online game and I thought it was INSANE that they were charging that much per hour.
Sure they milked a ton of people out of money that way though.
You can already kinda of do this. I will be purchasing $20 (2,000 Zen) worth of Zen every month. To me this is $20 to support the game that I enjoy playing. Now what this converts to as far as AD, we don't know yet and wont until the game is released. It may be enough for exactly what you are suggesting.
Rigas
I'll be doing something similar, even if you don't have to buy classes etc (I support the games I play..even the totally free ones), but having a subscription plan still might draw more people in to do something like that, and it allows the game to give some nice bonuses to players that are doing so (not pay to win, but pay to be more convienent etc).
More bank slots, character inventory slots, priority for logging in if servers get too crowded, faster movement speed in public zones, ability to play on test servers and see content before it's released (not to mention test out new classes without paying for them), bonus ZEN (subscribe for 3 months at $10 a month and get 1100 zen instead of only 1000 zen a month...etc.
Things like that are small bonus and don't make a huge difference in game. Everyone has the same power level/max when fighting etc, but those that support the game, get perks that make play easier for them and show that they are appreciated. They also have access to test servers etc and help shape the future of the game more.
A setup like that I think helps everyone. It ensures the game has a steady stream of income, but still allows the entire game to be free to play for everyone.
You should make a poll and yes I am a fan of subscriptions...it supplies more revenue for the devs to keep up a constant stream of content. I have always simply not liked ftp models at all, even if they are the future.
I think aol or something had pay by the hour games as well. I avoided those like the plague since I had already been playing online games for years (Lands, crossroads etc on BBSs, and muds through telnet and tinyfugue etc (started with batmud/stickmud back when they came out). I already knew how many hours you could sink into an online game and I thought it was INSANE that they were charging that much per hour.
Sure they milked a ton of people out of money that way though.
AOL did, they had the first Neverwinter Nights actually. As for the cost, people buy Ferrari's they can't get out of 2nd gear (in the US) and pay millions for modern art that is a red dot on a white canvas....Which is more insane?
Even if a poll is conducted I doubt that Cryptic would be able to charge a "subscription" for NWO since the publisher is a FTP publisher and this would more than likely violate any business agreements that are in place. Now do I know this for a fact, no, but when you think about it from a business perspective it goes against everything PW is built upon. Here is an excerpt from there About Us page, "Perfect World Entertainment is a leading North American online games publisher specializing in immersive free-to-play MMORPGs......." There business model is FTP. About the best we could get from a poll is something like what wulfster42 mentioned and a bonus ZEN package for those that purchase multi-packs like 3 or 6 months at a time.
Rigas
Rigas Crimstone, Officer
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Even if a poll is conducted I doubt that Cryptic would be able to charge a "subscription" for NWO since the publisher is a FTP publisher and this would more than likely violate any business agreements that are in place. Now do I know this for a fact, no, but when you think about it from a business perspective it goes against everything PW is built upon. Here is an excerpt from there About Us page, "Perfect World Entertainment is a leading North American online games publisher specializing in immersive free-to-play MMORPGs......." There business model is FTP. About the best we could get from a poll is something like what wulfster42 mentioned and a bonus ZEN package for those that purchase multi-packs like 3 or 6 months at a time.
Rigas
I don't think a sub will be offered but PWE owns Cryptic. They can do whatever they want.
I used to feel subs were the only way to go. I hated cash stores, but didn't mind paying a sub. I know...stupid huh. I finally realized it was almost the same thing.
Now, however, I don't mind cash stores. If there's something I want, I'll throw some $$$ in for the points. Then, if there's nothing I want for a while, I play for free.
My problem is when they offer a lifetime subscription that includes access to everything PLUS free points every month. I'm a sucker for that.
I have a lifetime in CO, STO, LOTRO, and TSW. I don't play them often, BUT...I know I have points building up; so I feel compelled to keep checking in and seeing what's going on. I'm permanently attached to them (not really a bad thing).
I also have a monthly sub to SWTOR and SOE station pass....because I want all the stuff plus free points every month. (Although I will be dropping SWTOR to free level when NW gets released).
If PWE offered a lifetime sub for NW, I'd jump on it...even though I already paid $200 for the hero pack. Full access plus free points every month are like an addiction to me if it's a game a like. I'm such a sucker for these things. Of course, I'm assuming that's what a lifetime sub would entail, since it's what the others do.
So...to keep me safe...please...no subs. I'll just pay as I go in the store if I see something I like. And, I would probably end up paying more in the long run...sigh...I'm a lost cause.
I used to feel subs were the only way to go. I hated cash stores, but didn't mind paying a sub. I know...stupid huh. I finally realized it was almost the same thing.
Now, however, I don't mind cash stores. If there's something I want, I'll throw some $$$ in for the points. Then, if there's nothing I want for a while, I play for free.
My problem is when they offer a lifetime subscription that includes access to everything PLUS free points every month. I'm a sucker for that.
I have a lifetime in CO, STO, LOTRO, and TSW. I don't play them often, BUT...I know I have points building up; so I feel compelled to keep checking in and seeing what's going on. I'm permanently attached to them (not really a bad thing).
I also have a monthly sub to SWTOR and SOE station pass....because I want all the stuff plus free points every month. (Although I will be dropping SWTOR to free level when NW gets released).
If PWE offered a lifetime sub for NW, I'd jump on it...even though I already paid $200 for the hero pack. Full access plus free points every month are like an addiction to me if it's a game a like. I'm such a sucker for these things. Of course, I'm assuming that's what a lifetime sub would entail, since it's what the others do.
So...to keep me safe...please...no subs. I'll just pay as I go in the store if I see something I like. And, I would probably end up paying more in the long run...sigh...I'm a lost cause.
Might I ask what TSW is? I keep seeing people mentioning it. Thought I'd played most of the MMO's out there but don't recognize that.
Wow thats alot of lifetime subs lol. I woulda paid one for DDO in a second, but I have never been sure enough I'd want to play a MMO longer then a few months to pay for another one. I might have possible done so with City of heroes/villians though if they had offered one.
Wish I could have gotten into Champions Online, but I tried twice with no luck:( City of heroes ruined that game for me.
I don't think a sub will be offered but PWE owns Cryptic. They can do whatever they want.
They are. But that doesn't mean they don't operate as separate entities. Regardless my point was mainly that since FTP is PWEs business model, then I, as you mentioned as well, doubt they will ever be a "sub" for NWO.
Rigas
Rigas Crimstone, Officer
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Oh yeah, totally forgot about that game. Never tried it as there was something in the reviews on it that turned me off on the game. Can't remember what....but I was kinda busy with other games when it came out anyway.
Again, I would too. I like 15 dollars a month getting me anything and everything the game has to offer, period.
How about you just buy 15 dollars worth of credit every month and pretend it's a subscription? That way, remember, the developers won't fall into the trap of figuring out the best way to waste everyone's time, because that's what they do.
How about you just buy 15 dollars worth of credit every month and pretend it's a subscription? That way, remember, the developers won't fall into the trap of figuring out the best way to waste everyone's time, because that's what they do.
Because $15 a month won't get you that. Games with optional subs DDO/SWTOR, it's just easier to pay the sub and just have all the content and perks.
I'd love to just pay a nice simple subscription, and NOT have to pay for inventory space, bank space, character slots, Foundry slots, and whatever other barriers to fun they're going to throw in that you have to buy your way past.
How I have handled F2P games in the past was that once I started getting hooked on it I would spend a whole bunch of money on any of the features I wanted over roughly a 2 month period. Then, unless there was new content, I did not pay them a dime for the rest of the time I played. I think the best example was DDO where I probably spent about $150 in the first couple months, then played off and on for the next two years and maybe spent another $20 during that time. Had I been on a subscription they would have gotten more out of me for sure.
I can only think about what would have happened if City of Heroes, which I played and had a subscription for 7 years, had launched as F2P. With all the extra packs, the CoV release, the Going Rogue add-on, and 7 years of subscription time, I easily gave that game over $1000, but had it been F2P it probably would have been around a third of that amount. It makes me wonder how different the game would have been if they got so much less money from their players, if it would have survived as long as it did, and what will happen with other games in the longer run that take the F2P approach. Sure it can survive, but will it have as much content will be added on a regular basis 3 years from now?
I'm glad the folks behind Neverwinter realize that's it's actually a bad idea to copy the business model of painful failures like SWTOR.
Well, let's be fair, for all of SW:TOR's failure (and I agree it failed, sadly, it had amazing potential), part of what you see with games like SW:TOR is the clunky conversion of subscription to F2P. Particularly when lifetime subscriptions were offered, you're pretty much stuck with having to offer some kind of subscription service afterward.
Look F2P is here to stay, but the reason it's here to stay is you generally get more than 15 a month out of your user base. What appears like a real "deal", is actually quite costly. Look at the average expenditure of your active World of Tanks user. It's really high. Even more, take a look at your average spend rate on Magic Online. Ouch. Those people, drop serious cash.
I am glad the impoverished get access to a game for free, but make no mistake F2P isn't a bargain, it's a cash cow for gaming companies.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Look F2P is here to stay, but the reason it's here to stay is you generally get more than 15 a month out of your user base. What appears like a real "deal", is actually quite costly.
I am glad the impoverished get access to a game for free, but make no mistake F2P isn't a bargain, it's a cash cow for gaming companies.
I can only think about what would have happened if City of Heroes, which I played and had a subscription for 7 years, had launched as F2P.
It's an interesting question...your suggesting F2P games are more disposable, that people pick them up, tinker with them for a bit, then move on to the next F2P game.
It's possible I suppose, there's not a whole lot of data on F2P games to be sure one way or the either. All I know is it can make bank. So I think it is here to stay.
I've gone off P-A in the last few years, but that particular strip was classic, proving those guys can still, every once in a while, hit it out of the park. Thanks for sharing it out!
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
I am glad the impoverished get access to a game for free, but make no mistake F2P isn't a bargain, it's a cash cow for gaming companies.
You neglected to mention the other group that benefits - the cows being milked. Make no mistake, most of the customers spending the hundreds per month are glad to have the opportunity and would have been spending that much for years, except the standard subscription rate prevented them from doing so, unless they turned to the black market.
Free-to-play is interesting in that it makes companies like IGE.com irrelevant, so the company actually making the game gets paid instead of a group operating outside the terms of service. Players could always buy prestige and power, to an extent, they just had to buy it illegally and risk being banned or scammed. Now they can do it legally in a safe manner that benefits the right people.
Free-to-play, by letting customers spend as much or as little as they want, solves a lot of problems. Does it create more? It can. Balancing what is sold is difficult, to be sure. Still, a properly done free-to-play game with microtransactions, in my opinion, is more viable and serves customers better than a subscription game.
How I have handled F2P games in the past was that once I started getting hooked on it I would spend a whole bunch of money on any of the features I wanted over roughly a 2 month period. Then, unless there was new content, I did not pay them a dime for the rest of the time I played. I think the best example was DDO where I probably spent about $150 in the first couple months, then played off and on for the next two years and maybe spent another $20 during that time. Had I been on a subscription they would have gotten more out of me for sure.
I can only think about what would have happened if City of Heroes, which I played and had a subscription for 7 years, had launched as F2P. With all the extra packs, the CoV release, the Going Rogue add-on, and 7 years of subscription time, I easily gave that game over $1000, but had it been F2P it probably would have been around a third of that amount. It makes me wonder how different the game would have been if they got so much less money from their players, if it would have survived as long as it did, and what will happen with other games in the longer run that take the F2P approach. Sure it can survive, but will it have as much content will be added on a regular basis 3 years from now?
We seem to have similar tastes as DDO is my favorite MMO so far and CoH was my next favorite.
With current VIP subscription rates though, 2 years of play on DDO is like $180 I think. In addition you get 500 TP a month so 12k TP as well (about 2/3 of the tp you would get just purchasing it for cash in the first place). Course, I've spent over $1000 over the years on DDO by now but that was by choice, not necesity.
Even just from when DDO first offered FTP, if I had just thrown down a big wad of change and bought everything..and then kept buying everything as time went on, it would have been much cheaper over all...so that game at least is cheaper (in the very long run) to go FTP with (especially if you wait for deals before purchasing things).
In the short term though subscription plans are WAAAAY cheaper. Take DDO for example again, if you shell out $30, you get 3 months of being able to play everything (plenty of character slots, all classes (well except favored soul which you unlock in game), all races and all adventure packs. It costs you only $30 AND you get 1500 TP as well to buy extra stuff with.
If you went FTP though and bought everything you needed from the store, it would cost you well over $100 just in the first month (between adventure packs, races/classes (even saying you don't buy em all) etc. So in that case FTP costs WAY more.
And then, a month down the line you discover you really are bored with DDO and don't want to play it anymore (I never did, but some do). If you got the 3 month subscription plan...no biggie, but if you invested over $100 in the cash store.....thats a bigger deal.
That is one reason I think subscription plans are better in some ways. You can try everything out and only spend a small amount of money to see if you like the game. It's long term that FTP starts having any chance of saving players money.
That is of course if it's not totally free to play like someone was mentioning before (like Path of Exile for instance). If you get ALL content for free and only pay for perks...well that is great. I don't see how that is going to be setup for NWO though if we already know you have to pay for additional character slots.
I'd love to just pay a nice simple subscription, and NOT have to pay for inventory space, bank space, character slots, Foundry slots, and whatever other barriers to fun they're going to throw in that you have to buy your way past.
But wouldn't you rather have the option to do that with in-game currency? It just becomes a natural way to grow your character.
In the short term though subscription plans are WAAAAY cheaper. Take DDO for example again, if you shell out $30, you get 3 months of being able to play everything (plenty of character slots, all classes (well except favored soul which you unlock in game), all races and all adventure packs. It costs you only $30 AND you get 1500 TP as well to buy extra stuff with.
I think you missed the part where you can also get all that stuff with in-game currency too. A subscription is not more cost-efficient than free.
You got to understand there is a difference here: 1.) League of Legends Free-to-play where you can buy special outfits for your characters, which people with expendable income, looooove. Otherwise things required to prep your play, champions and runes, cost an in-game currency, or you can pay real money to hasten the process. There has never been a subscription fee, and some people play it so enthusiastically its some people's full-time-job. This is the model games like Dota 2 and Team Fortress 2 are following. And they're a growing industry because of it.
2.) Those games with an optional subscription fee, which are not really free to play, but simply an extended free-trial without a level-cap or time-restriction. If you want to do the things you're eventually going to want to do, you're going to need to pay. Champions Online, DDO, Both Everquests, SWTOR are the games that follow this model, and they are neither growing nor dying. They are in MMO limbo.
Neverwinter is utilizing the former. Good Work Neverwinter
But wouldn't you rather have the option to do that with in-game currency? It just becomes a natural way to grow your character.
I think you missed the part where you can also get all that stuff with in-game currency too. A subscription is not more cost-efficient than free.
You got to understand there is a difference here: 1.) League of Legends Free-to-play where you can buy special outfits for your characters, which people with expendable income, looooove. Otherwise things required to prep your play, champions and runes, cost an in-game currency, or you can pay real money to hasten the process. There has never been a subscription fee, and some people play it so enthusiastically its some people's full-time-job. This is the model games like Dota 2 and Team Fortress 2 are following. And they're a growing industry because of it.
2.) Those games with an optional subscription fee, which are not really free to play, but simply an extended free-trial without a level-cap or time-restriction. If you want to do the things you're eventually going to want to do, you're going to need to pay. Champions Online, DDO, Both Everquests, SWTOR are the games that follow this model, and they are neither growing nor dying. They are in MMO limbo.
Neverwinter is utilizing the former. Good Work Neverwinter
Your right, I missed that option because I don't have much experience with it. I did try LOL but got bored quickly. Character building/customization is a big draw for me, and without that....I didn't really find much incentive to keep playing it (had a few favorite chars and that was about it).
FTP games that give everything for free are great, but I don't see how NWO is that type of game if we know they will at least be charging for character slots...and probably for classes as well. I know, in theory you can buy anything by selling in game currency (astral diamonds) for zen...but it's not really "free" since someone ends up still paying zen (or real life cash) for those astral diamonds....basically someone else is paying for your content (and your paying them with in game currency..or your time playing the game basically).
That is not free though. It's just transferring the cost to someone else.
If NWO gives enough char slots for each character that is release, makes all new classes free to play etc, then it would be a true free to play game. If it only sells cosmetic options (much like Path of Exile) then you are 100% right, it's a totally free game and awesome.
If though, you need to actually purchase new classes, character slots etc with money (either directly or by selling your in game currency to other players for money), then it's not free to play. It's pay to play with an option to pay with in game time/effort (as long as other players are willing to pay for it.
I'm not saying that is a bad setup, but it's not really free...and more to the point it relies on a smaller pool of players paying enough money to support the game (basically setting up a reason for those players to want to spend money buying astral diamonds AND all the content that the people selling astral diamonds want...or twice as much money in effect at least.
I hope it's a LoL type system, but the evidence we have so far (from the founders packs) does not lend me to believe it's going to be that way. I think it'll be more like the TERA system....or the DDO system you were talking about above. I hope I'm wrong, but that is where the evidence points right now.
Comments
That's pay to win.
Downright pay to win. Not good.
I could use that argument in any game with a rare drop...let's sell the rarest, hardest to get and most powerful item. It's not pay to win because you can kill the hardest boss in the game and have a 1/2,000 chance for the drop.
Pay to Win is simply player defined as something which gives an excessive edge over another player by paying money. Of course the line between convenience and pay to win is subjective but that's a concept 90% or more (honest) players would say is pay to win.
Not only has it been confirmed that business practice won't make it into Neverwinter but if it does you'll see me as the first to leave. Pay to win games are something most every person in the gaming community has lost patience for.
^^^ this...
You can already kinda of do this. I will be purchasing $20 (2,000 Zen) worth of Zen every month. To me this is $20 to support the game that I enjoy playing. Now what this converts to as far as AD, we don't know yet and wont until the game is released. It may be enough for exactly what you are suggesting.
Rigas
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Banners of the Light
Again, I would too. I like 15 dollars a month getting me anything and everything the game has to offer, period.
But those days are gone. F2P's genius is that it obscures how much you really pay for things. (You spend 72 dollars (plus tax) on 1250 diamonds and then you spend 170 diamonds on something, is not an equation most can do in their head).
It also provides an illusion that you can earn it all by just dedicating a lot of time to play, but usually that time is obscured too, you don't really realize it's going to take you 200 hours to earn that digital hat, until you are deep in the grind to earn it. At which point, the company hope you bail and just cough up the 8 bucks.
MMOs used to be buffets, you'd pay 15 dollars and you could eat anything on the menu as much as you like. Gaming companies have figured out that it's better to have prices for each menu item. Oh and if you want, you can go wash dishes in the back for 100 hours and we'll give you a free cheeseburger.
Good news is F2P stops distribution piracy, as in it no longer matters how/where you download the client. That's a positive thing, because the solutions to inhibit unpaid for distribution (like not being able to copy a game to multiple clients, or some kind of authorization mechanism to prove you bought the game), are a pain. So that whole fiasco is going the way of the dodo.
Retailers suffer, but I guess Best Buy just has to be content with selling "Unicorn Diamond Cards" on their pegs, rather than a big colorful box that says, "I have a really cool game inside".
But it brings up another point, my F2P account is more valuable than ever when its jacked up with 100 bucks worth of "Unicorn Diamonds" or whatever it is that is the supreme pay currency in the game. How does Cryptic protect that for me? Will they use things like Google Authenticator?
I know these solutions aren't fool-proof either, but because this design rewards high purchase up front (100 dollars get you way more "Rainbow Money" dollar for dollar than 10 dollars), then I want that protected.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
I think aol or something had pay by the hour games as well. I avoided those like the plague since I had already been playing online games for years (Lands, crossroads etc on BBSs, and muds through telnet and tinyfugue etc (started with batmud/stickmud back when they came out). I already knew how many hours you could sink into an online game and I thought it was INSANE that they were charging that much per hour.
Sure they milked a ton of people out of money that way though.
I'll be doing something similar, even if you don't have to buy classes etc (I support the games I play..even the totally free ones), but having a subscription plan still might draw more people in to do something like that, and it allows the game to give some nice bonuses to players that are doing so (not pay to win, but pay to be more convienent etc).
More bank slots, character inventory slots, priority for logging in if servers get too crowded, faster movement speed in public zones, ability to play on test servers and see content before it's released (not to mention test out new classes without paying for them), bonus ZEN (subscribe for 3 months at $10 a month and get 1100 zen instead of only 1000 zen a month...etc.
Things like that are small bonus and don't make a huge difference in game. Everyone has the same power level/max when fighting etc, but those that support the game, get perks that make play easier for them and show that they are appreciated. They also have access to test servers etc and help shape the future of the game more.
A setup like that I think helps everyone. It ensures the game has a steady stream of income, but still allows the entire game to be free to play for everyone.
AOL did, they had the first Neverwinter Nights actually. As for the cost, people buy Ferrari's they can't get out of 2nd gear (in the US) and pay millions for modern art that is a red dot on a white canvas....Which is more insane?
Rigas
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Banners of the Light
I don't think a sub will be offered but PWE owns Cryptic. They can do whatever they want.
I used to feel subs were the only way to go. I hated cash stores, but didn't mind paying a sub. I know...stupid huh. I finally realized it was almost the same thing.
Now, however, I don't mind cash stores. If there's something I want, I'll throw some $$$ in for the points. Then, if there's nothing I want for a while, I play for free.
My problem is when they offer a lifetime subscription that includes access to everything PLUS free points every month. I'm a sucker for that.
I have a lifetime in CO, STO, LOTRO, and TSW. I don't play them often, BUT...I know I have points building up; so I feel compelled to keep checking in and seeing what's going on. I'm permanently attached to them (not really a bad thing).
I also have a monthly sub to SWTOR and SOE station pass....because I want all the stuff plus free points every month. (Although I will be dropping SWTOR to free level when NW gets released).
If PWE offered a lifetime sub for NW, I'd jump on it...even though I already paid $200 for the hero pack. Full access plus free points every month are like an addiction to me if it's a game a like. I'm such a sucker for these things. Of course, I'm assuming that's what a lifetime sub would entail, since it's what the others do.
So...to keep me safe...please...no subs. I'll just pay as I go in the store if I see something I like. And, I would probably end up paying more in the long run...sigh...I'm a lost cause.
Might I ask what TSW is? I keep seeing people mentioning it. Thought I'd played most of the MMO's out there but don't recognize that.
Wow thats alot of lifetime subs lol. I woulda paid one for DDO in a second, but I have never been sure enough I'd want to play a MMO longer then a few months to pay for another one. I might have possible done so with City of heroes/villians though if they had offered one.
Wish I could have gotten into Champions Online, but I tried twice with no luck:( City of heroes ruined that game for me.
The Secret World.
They are. But that doesn't mean they don't operate as separate entities.
Rigas
"Perfecting the art of being a meatshield since 1998"
Banners of the Light
Oh yeah, totally forgot about that game. Never tried it as there was something in the reviews on it that turned me off on the game. Can't remember what....but I was kinda busy with other games when it came out anyway.
Thanks:)
Because $15 a month won't get you that. Games with optional subs DDO/SWTOR, it's just easier to pay the sub and just have all the content and perks.
I can only think about what would have happened if City of Heroes, which I played and had a subscription for 7 years, had launched as F2P. With all the extra packs, the CoV release, the Going Rogue add-on, and 7 years of subscription time, I easily gave that game over $1000, but had it been F2P it probably would have been around a third of that amount. It makes me wonder how different the game would have been if they got so much less money from their players, if it would have survived as long as it did, and what will happen with other games in the longer run that take the F2P approach. Sure it can survive, but will it have as much content will be added on a regular basis 3 years from now?
Well, let's be fair, for all of SW:TOR's failure (and I agree it failed, sadly, it had amazing potential), part of what you see with games like SW:TOR is the clunky conversion of subscription to F2P. Particularly when lifetime subscriptions were offered, you're pretty much stuck with having to offer some kind of subscription service afterward.
Look F2P is here to stay, but the reason it's here to stay is you generally get more than 15 a month out of your user base. What appears like a real "deal", is actually quite costly. Look at the average expenditure of your active World of Tanks user. It's really high. Even more, take a look at your average spend rate on Magic Online. Ouch. Those people, drop serious cash.
I am glad the impoverished get access to a game for free, but make no mistake F2P isn't a bargain, it's a cash cow for gaming companies.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Exactly. Calls to mind this classic Penny Arcade strip, "Unbeatable Value" - http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/06/10
It's SO free.
It's an interesting question...your suggesting F2P games are more disposable, that people pick them up, tinker with them for a bit, then move on to the next F2P game.
It's possible I suppose, there's not a whole lot of data on F2P games to be sure one way or the either. All I know is it can make bank. So I think it is here to stay.
I've gone off P-A in the last few years, but that particular strip was classic, proving those guys can still, every once in a while, hit it out of the park. Thanks for sharing it out!
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
You neglected to mention the other group that benefits - the cows being milked. Make no mistake, most of the customers spending the hundreds per month are glad to have the opportunity and would have been spending that much for years, except the standard subscription rate prevented them from doing so, unless they turned to the black market.
Free-to-play is interesting in that it makes companies like IGE.com irrelevant, so the company actually making the game gets paid instead of a group operating outside the terms of service. Players could always buy prestige and power, to an extent, they just had to buy it illegally and risk being banned or scammed. Now they can do it legally in a safe manner that benefits the right people.
Free-to-play, by letting customers spend as much or as little as they want, solves a lot of problems. Does it create more? It can. Balancing what is sold is difficult, to be sure. Still, a properly done free-to-play game with microtransactions, in my opinion, is more viable and serves customers better than a subscription game.
We seem to have similar tastes as DDO is my favorite MMO so far and CoH was my next favorite.
With current VIP subscription rates though, 2 years of play on DDO is like $180 I think. In addition you get 500 TP a month so 12k TP as well (about 2/3 of the tp you would get just purchasing it for cash in the first place). Course, I've spent over $1000 over the years on DDO by now but that was by choice, not necesity.
Even just from when DDO first offered FTP, if I had just thrown down a big wad of change and bought everything..and then kept buying everything as time went on, it would have been much cheaper over all...so that game at least is cheaper (in the very long run) to go FTP with (especially if you wait for deals before purchasing things).
In the short term though subscription plans are WAAAAY cheaper. Take DDO for example again, if you shell out $30, you get 3 months of being able to play everything (plenty of character slots, all classes (well except favored soul which you unlock in game), all races and all adventure packs. It costs you only $30 AND you get 1500 TP as well to buy extra stuff with.
If you went FTP though and bought everything you needed from the store, it would cost you well over $100 just in the first month (between adventure packs, races/classes (even saying you don't buy em all) etc. So in that case FTP costs WAY more.
And then, a month down the line you discover you really are bored with DDO and don't want to play it anymore (I never did, but some do). If you got the 3 month subscription plan...no biggie, but if you invested over $100 in the cash store.....thats a bigger deal.
That is one reason I think subscription plans are better in some ways. You can try everything out and only spend a small amount of money to see if you like the game. It's long term that FTP starts having any chance of saving players money.
That is of course if it's not totally free to play like someone was mentioning before (like Path of Exile for instance). If you get ALL content for free and only pay for perks...well that is great. I don't see how that is going to be setup for NWO though if we already know you have to pay for additional character slots.
I think you missed the part where you can also get all that stuff with in-game currency too. A subscription is not more cost-efficient than free.
You got to understand there is a difference here: 1.) League of Legends Free-to-play where you can buy special outfits for your characters, which people with expendable income, looooove. Otherwise things required to prep your play, champions and runes, cost an in-game currency, or you can pay real money to hasten the process. There has never been a subscription fee, and some people play it so enthusiastically its some people's full-time-job. This is the model games like Dota 2 and Team Fortress 2 are following. And they're a growing industry because of it.
2.) Those games with an optional subscription fee, which are not really free to play, but simply an extended free-trial without a level-cap or time-restriction. If you want to do the things you're eventually going to want to do, you're going to need to pay. Champions Online, DDO, Both Everquests, SWTOR are the games that follow this model, and they are neither growing nor dying. They are in MMO limbo.
Neverwinter is utilizing the former.
Your right, I missed that option because I don't have much experience with it. I did try LOL but got bored quickly. Character building/customization is a big draw for me, and without that....I didn't really find much incentive to keep playing it (had a few favorite chars and that was about it).
FTP games that give everything for free are great, but I don't see how NWO is that type of game if we know they will at least be charging for character slots...and probably for classes as well. I know, in theory you can buy anything by selling in game currency (astral diamonds) for zen...but it's not really "free" since someone ends up still paying zen (or real life cash) for those astral diamonds....basically someone else is paying for your content (and your paying them with in game currency..or your time playing the game basically).
That is not free though. It's just transferring the cost to someone else.
If NWO gives enough char slots for each character that is release, makes all new classes free to play etc, then it would be a true free to play game. If it only sells cosmetic options (much like Path of Exile) then you are 100% right, it's a totally free game and awesome.
If though, you need to actually purchase new classes, character slots etc with money (either directly or by selling your in game currency to other players for money), then it's not free to play. It's pay to play with an option to pay with in game time/effort (as long as other players are willing to pay for it.
I'm not saying that is a bad setup, but it's not really free...and more to the point it relies on a smaller pool of players paying enough money to support the game (basically setting up a reason for those players to want to spend money buying astral diamonds AND all the content that the people selling astral diamonds want...or twice as much money in effect at least.
I hope it's a LoL type system, but the evidence we have so far (from the founders packs) does not lend me to believe it's going to be that way. I think it'll be more like the TERA system....or the DDO system you were talking about above. I hope I'm wrong, but that is where the evidence points right now.