When they took away the feat system, skills, environment dangers/interactions, linear path/experiance in a quest/dungeon, varying class builds (swapping powers is not a build) and went after a more MMOified feel/mechanics then they took away the D&D imo.
The UGC is the only saving grace for Neverwinter and even then they need to expand player's freedom with Persistent World and DM hosted event capabilities. Sure the game looks pretty but that's not the end all be all in a game.
Given that this game is not undergoing an open Beta, and given that this game is based on Champions Online, I would recommend people, who want things to change, try CO to see what is possible with this engine and so what might be applied to NO.
Of the free archetypes The Grimoire maps to a Wizard (or Magic user), The Blade is roughly like a Fighter, The Marksman is like a Ranger, The Radiant is vaguely like a healing Cleric and The Unleashed is like well, maybe a Paladin (or Jedhi?).
Then you'll be able to recommend what changes can be done to NO to make it more like D&D4, or even may like D&D instead.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
So, in order for it to be "constructive," it now has to be able to be done within six months or it can't be discussed?
Look, the game started Closed Beta - anyone who's been around Crytpic's betas knows that what we see is pretty much what we're getting at launch. Nobody here is saying that the changes we would like to see have to come at launch, only that these are the changes you should make if you want anyone to believe it's a real Dungeons and Dragons game.
I don't expect any changes to be made at all. Cryptic has proven time and again that they'll take the path of least resistance when it comes to their games, and actually putting DnD into a DnD game is much harder than just reskinning Champions. However, you can't sit here and say that it isn't constructive suggestion if it can't be done by launch or immediately thereafter.
jedidethfreak823,
It's not that saying 'we want free form classes' isn't constructive in a sense...
It's more along the lines that the reality of the situation dictates it will not happen. The game can be improved by other smaller steps until free form classes can be worked on.
Basically if possible feedback is drowned out by 'free form classes' then chances are nothing will get done.
It's not that saying 'we want free form classes' isn't constructive in a sense...
It's more along the lines that the reality of the situation dictates it will not happen. The game can be improved by other smaller steps until free form classes can be worked on.
Basically if possible feedback is drowned out by 'free form classes' then chances are nothing will get done.
*please check your PM's jedidethfreak823*
NWN 1 class creation and class building. copy paste it then just balance feats and stats for mmo. I really can't see what is so hard? Yeah sure some will pop up and say oh you are not a programator you have no idea..
Response in advance: They are a game making corporation. It's they're job to do things like this. Why focus so much on face and moustache lenght and so little on the things that affect the gameplay like feats,skills,spells,classes etc. ? I just don't get it.
You all know that the d&d fans are not kids that eat graphics and special efects, most of us can live with some low <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> magic missiles as long as this is d&d. Rember that we got only tiny plastic statuets, a map and imagination when we play the board game.
Please focus more on character creation,character build,d&d mechanics.
I am willing to even give up to more races and classes (for now) just focus on making the game more d&d. Sheer content can be added later
If I were to suggest a way to implement a deeper class customization feature, it would be like this:
I don't mind having the builds as specific classes really. It shows what would inevitably happen if you had a freeform character and you min-maxed it (you'd get a build). Now if you could go and sort of "zoom in" to customize those builds, it would add a new layer of depth to your character. This is old news, but I haven't seen a viable solution yet.
This version of D&D focuses on 4 roles, right? Striker, control, leader, and defender. Sometimes people want to play a certain class, but not be locked into a certain role. A GWF may be the leader of the group, cleric might end up controlling more, etc.
If you have a talent tree-like system in place, we could keep the builds as classes (as you're doing now), and your "talent tree" (almost like a Paragon Path from Lv1) could influence the powers you get or specialize in. What would these trees be? Well, striker, controller, leader, and defender, of course. Play the role you want, with the class you want. More specialization in a specific role or tree would be ideal, but you could also dabble in other roles (like how Borderlands did it kind of).
The beef of this would be finding (and/or creating) enough skills and powers to fill out each of the 4 roles for each and every individual class (build) that is created, and making sure they all play differently. This could potentially take a lot more time, but it would have a huge impact in customizing your character.
Aside from that, I vote for putting points into weapon proficiencies again! ^^
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dogmaraiderMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited February 2013
I vote for picking pockets and picking locks. What's the point of playing without those? :rolleyes: Come one... where are those non-combat skills that made everything so fun....:D
As for skills as some have been saying there is a crafting system coming so some of those skills should play in there. As for opening chests always thought it was the rogues area of skill. But as i have seen some chests can only be opened by some classes don't have issue with that. But most skills are for role play but could be used in the game as well Acrobatics could mitigate damage (falling, area effect spells ect...or help avoid sub of this is balance could be used as a way to avoid being knocked down by area of effects unstable ground, slick ice ect.. and also the skill help with escaping being held as well, Athletics is the physical skill running, jumping, climb swim all fall under here, so this could in a mmo help with land movement for the character only if they can do that. Bluff is a skill that might have to be worked a bit in combat giving a bonus to score a crit by catching some one off guard or getting information from some one or trying to scare some one in to running away or an agro breaker not sure. Diplomacy is a role play skill so not sutre how this could be used in a mmo would have to be out of combat. well you see were i am headed with this they could do it add them in later maybe
NWN 1 class creation and class building. copy paste it then just balance feats and stats for mmo. I really can't see what is so hard? Yeah sure some will pop up and say oh you are not a programator you have no idea..
Response in advance: They are a game making corporation. It's they're job to do things like this. Why focus so much on face and moustache lenght and so little on the things that affect the gameplay like feats,skills,spells,classes etc. ? I just don't get it.
You all know that the d&d fans are not kids that eat graphics and special efects, most of us can live with some low <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> magic missiles as long as this is d&d. Rember that we got only tiny plastic statuets, a map and imagination when we play the board game.
Please focus more on character creation,character build,d&d mechanics.
I am willing to even give up to more races and classes (for now) just focus on making the game more d&d. Sheer content can be added later
Actually the problem isn't one of development it is more a case of D&D4 versus D&D.
NWN 1 class creation and class building was based on D&D and if the NO was going to be based on that then using Cryptic to produce the MMO simply wouldn't make sense.
Since 2008 D&D itself was replaced by D&D4 with the old classes were completely overhauled to make a D&D-like game that was internally more consist with itself with lots of semi-random skill/powers that generally involved an attack with side-effects. Wizards in D&D4 don't actually have spells, instead they have spell-like skill/powers not much different from "non-magical" skill/powers.
I recommend that D&D players catch up with the D&D4 bowdlerisations as much as I would recommend purist D&D4 players look into the history of the D&D game to understand why D&D players will constantly arrive to say NO does not seem to resemble D&D.
If people plan to play NO, and use the forums, this point will constantly arise and it helps to realise (for example) that although in D&D the Magic Missile spell always tended to attack multiple targets in D&D4 it became a skill/power that only ever attacked one person. It doesn't help that D&D4 players refer to D&D4 as D&D, which deepens this kind of confusion.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Because there's always somebody else with more money, and you can never win that unless you're that guy. If you successfully take users away from the old stuff, then the guys with more money upgrade that beyond what you can achieve, and why would anybody play your version? So, you do something different, and hope people like it. If enough do, you succeed.
Cryptic succeeded with City of Heroes, failed with Champions Online (because they tried to make a better City of Heroes, although admittedly this was an externally-induced problem when Marvel pulled out, because "City of Heroes with a top tier IP" would have been sufficiently different), and succeeded with Star Trek Online.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they can succeed with "medieval fantasy + action combat + state of the art cosmetic customization + state of the art chat + the only MF IP that's bigger than Warcraft". I think that's a sufficiently unique combination that it can succeed; "it's like DDO but with better graphics" isn't.
I'm sorry, but no. Cryptic failed with City of Heroes. PARAGON STUDIOS and...I hate to say it....NCSoft succeeded. Once Cryptic sold it to NCSoft, the game got much better. More communication from its developers, more content, playtesters were actually listened to, new, innovative ideas were added to the game system...tons of other stuff. Cryptic cannot claim City of as "its" success, any more than they can claim the game as one of theirs. They sold it off. Abandoned it.
And let's face it...if Cryptic owned the IP for STO...it would be languishing now, too. Just like CO is. Sure, Star Trek has a built in fanbase numbering in the millions....but I'll bet dollars to donuts the actual population of that game isn't in the millions. Why? I can't say for sure, but speculation and logic say....dedicated fans of the genre view Cryptic as "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up the name". I'm reasonably certain, even though there's no actual proof beyond my personal observations and experience for all of this(well, except for the City of Heroes claim. THAT is truth.) that Cryptic is "under the gun" so to speak to develop content for STO, as Paramount still owns the IP and technically can yank it from Cryptic the moment Paramount feels Cryptic is losing more than it's taking in.
And don't blame Marvel pulling out for CO's "failure". When a game company doesn't add content to a game in a year or more, THAT is when it fails. When developers won't even pop in to respond to the players on the forums for more than a year, THAT is when a game fails. The onus of Co's "failure" is dead on Cryptic's lap, nobody else's.
It's alright though, syber....you're a paid Cryptic employee. You CAN'T talk the truth about your company. You kinda have to play them up so they don't come down on you. It's alright. I understand.
But back to the topic at hand....I've actually posted my opinion on this subject before...but I'll reiterate. No. Not D&D. Not even in spirit.
There are so many things I can point out to justify that claim...but I'll stick with the most glaringly obvious. Clerics that worship different gods get DIFFERENT HOLY SYMBOLS. Every video I've seen, every cleric has that gods-awful chain connected abomination, and it looks identical to every other cleric's. For a company that people say has gotten character customization down to a science....that's tripe. And purely Cryptic's fault.
, as Paramount still owns the IP and technically can yank it from Cryptic the moment Paramount feels Cryptic is losing more than it's taking in.
Wrong, CBS owns the majority, and they approve everything that goes into game.
It's alright though, syber....you're a paid Cryptic employee. You CAN'T talk the truth about your company. You kinda have to play them up so they don't come down on you. It's alright. I understand.
Wrong, he is a volunteer moderator. aka he doesn't get paid. He
Many of us say it is not DnD because it misses most of the things in your list. I feel the game misses the spirit of DnD in that if gives me no real control over my character. I don't play 4e and have spent most of my playing time in private sandboxes not canon lore. I have no opinion on how well they translated the rule set. I do have a problem with how much they left out. I want my skills to mean something and have an effect on the game beyond you can now open this box. It is a fun game it just misses the essence of what DnD is to me.
You have complete control over your character. You control what they do and say.
And in responce to visionstorm01's Sharnwall of text: You call attention to all the systematic changes to D&D over the years, which itself if a testament to how Neverwinter has truly captured the spirit of D&D: The builds and stats and rules will be in a state of constant flux. These parts of D&D will never be consistent, yet the dungeons, and the dragons and the adventure is what D&D has always been, and that is what Neverwinter has captured.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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cragarionMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The Simple fact here is that anything that fails to evolve dies out.
Even if this is not the D&D that you know it is a New D&D an Evolved D&D.
Wrong, he is a volunteer moderator. aka he doesn't get paid. He
the fact moderators are working for free does not make them less cryptic employee...they signed an agreement and have a job to performed, they get directives from paid cryptic employees how to do their job...and they can get dismissed at anytime...i honestly don t believe they have full freedom of speech or if they do they got picked up cause they seem to have moderate to positive opinions about the game...
The Simple fact here is that anything that fails to evolve dies out.
Even if this is not the D&D that you know it is a New D&D an Evolved D&D.
i think it s about personal feelings, it has D&D on it, it s supported by WotC, it s heroic fantasy...that s plenty enough for some people...the fact it s trying to mimic loosely the latest edition does not change anything...it s an official DnDish game.
Based on my personal experience (computer game and pnp), it s just another (heavy) action fantasy RPG MMO in a DnD settings, that s it. IMO NWO is a DnD game like start trek pinball was a star trek game.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
STO has a foundry too, so does that make it D&D also?
While creating content is iconic to D&D it is not everything. Character building and progression is a major element along with choices both of which are absent in Neverwinter. Neverwinter is a watered down D&D experience.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
STO has a foundry too, so does that make it D&D also?
While creating content is iconic to D&D it is not everything. Character building and progression is a major element along with choices both of which are absent in Neverwinter. Neverwinter is a watered down D&D experience.
Does the STO foundry use the iconic D&D setting?
And honestly, what we're seeing here is the stark divide that's always going to be a part of every edition of D&D. It's at every table, every conference, and in every forum.
You have those people who rollplay character sheets and those who roleplay characters.
I've been at gaming tables where, when asked to describe their characters, they talk about their appearance, personality and mannerisms. One person's rogue mighe be describe as:
"Jack dresses in tight leather clothes, with a loose cloak hiding various weapons within. He's always quick with a joke, or a retort as sharp as his daggers. Even when walking normally, he moves with a quite grace that might betray his cat-like reflexes. While always appearing cool and calm, his eyes are constantly darting about, following even the smallest movements, and his ear keens to even the faintest of sounds."
Other people read their character sheet.
Somone else's rogue is: "Jack is a Level 2 Rogue/Level 1 Ranger mutliclass. He dual wields +1 daggers, and wears magical +1 leather armor. He can sneak attack for an extra +1d6 damage once per turn, has a +8 to spot and a +12 to listen. His magic boots give him a +5 bonus to moving silently."
Now you tell me, which version of D&D was each character created in, and which one is MORE D&D than the other? Which one IS D&D and which one isn't?
I've been at gaming tables where, when asked to describe their characters, they talk about their appearance, personality and mannerisms.
Ever been at a gaming table where the fighter says, "I pick up that bow." Then the DM says, "Sorry, you can't pick up a bow, you're not the right class."?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Ever been at a gaming table where the fighter says, "I pick up that bow." Then the DM says, "Sorry, you can't pick up a bow, you're not the right class."?
You understand that this is a video game, and not a D&D tabletop simulator, right?
You understand that this is a video game, and not a D&D tabletop simulator, right?
Yes, I do. Did you know Neverwinter Nights was a video game? Fighters could use bows in NWN. It's 20 years later and now you can't?
Evolution? I think not. Something seems backwards here.
Dungeons and Dragons for years opened up doorways, not closed them. The earlier systems were rudimentary. They got better edition by edition, until... what? I'm not sure exactly, but if people are saying this is evolutionary I think they're a bit confused.
the fact moderators are working for free does not make them less cryptic employee...they signed an agreement and have a job to performed, they get directives from paid cryptic employees how to do their job...and they can get dismissed at anytime...i honestly don t believe they have full freedom of speech or if they do they got picked up cause they seem to have moderate to positive opinions about the game...
I must have missed signing that agreement.
One of the first questions we asked was if we could or could not post in a negative tone about the game and it was made very clear our freedom of speech would not be impeded by our position.
In fact it was almost encouraged to keep the distinction between mods and players to a minimum. What Cryptic wants us to be first and foremost are positive members of the player community.
Sure we try to keep unhappy posts to a minimum but we are in no way obligated to post happy happy about the games.
If you see a positive post it's genuine. We don't play devil's advocate.
the fact moderators are working for free does not make them less cryptic employee...they signed an agreement and have a job to performed, they get directives from paid cryptic employees how to do their job...and they can get dismissed at anytime...i honestly don t believe they have full freedom of speech or if they do they got picked up cause they seem to have moderate to positive opinions about the game...
Wrong; they cannot give us tasks, orders, directives, or anything of the kind. The only thing they can do is override our actions and/or dismiss us. I have in fact been moderated myself since becoming a moderator. Our only directives how to do our job are the forum rules. If they were able to give us orders, they'd run afoul of California and Federal labor laws and have to pay us.
I have disagreed with Cryptic's decisions publicly on multiple occasions. If I didn't think their vision was fundamentally sound, however, I wouldn't want to moderate their forums. It's the same with the other moderators.
Ever been at a gaming table where the fighter says, "I pick up that bow." Then the DM says, "Sorry, you can't pick up a bow, you're not the right class."?
ooh I have!
I was playing a cleric and apparently my class felt it was wrong to shoot somebody.
Bit of a different argument there but it has happened. But as another said, fourth edition is vastly different than any other..and this live action combat is different yet based on fourth edition.
Some limits were unavoidable at the current time frame but arguing about whether fourth edition is or is not D&D is pointless. I don't hold it against people for not liking fourth edition...honestly it's my least favorite too...
But bickering about official D&D versions won't get us anywhere...
And one thing I can promise above anything else there is absolutely No chance this game will be modified to resemble anything but fourth edition No matter how much anybody would prefer a different version.
I just wish someone would make a sticky asking people to stop using the Neverwinter forums as a proxy for the D&D Edition Wars.
How about discussion on the thread subject?
Just because NW is based on 4e and not under constraint to adhere to every detail doesn't mean they can go very far from the theme without getting flak.
They seem like they very much want to stay close and we are just helping them do exactly that.
Solutions are like that. You address the problem and the leadership supplies the tools to move ahead.
I voted no for a very good reason: squeaky wheel gets the grease.
My issues: No DM client....I can see why on the main server but not in the user created adventures.
They are doing pretty well solving all of my issues and doubts. No reason to get all lovey dovey until the job is complete.
.... But as another said, fourth edition is vastly different than any other..and this live action combat is different yet based on fourth edition.
Some limits were unavoidable at the current time frame but arguing about whether fourth edition is or is not D&D is pointless. ...fourth edition No matter how much anybody would prefer a different version.
Just like any other edition, you can gain any proficiency in any class in fourth edition too. The fact of 4th edition has nothing to do at all with any argument of limitations.
Fourth edition is vastly diverse and there is no locking of any kind at all. It is even more versatile than 3rd edition when considered that it does not have alignment locks over classes.
Blaming limitations of game on fourth edition is very misleading and untrue.
EDIT:
Besides the game's mechanics have nothing to do with 4e PnP mechanics at all except for faking of similar names and "trend keywords" picked from the PnP books.
My issues: No DM client....I can see why on the main server but not in the user created adventures.
Exactly. This is a perfect example. It's system agnostic, and would be a desired feature regardless of what edition D&D we're playing.
Personally, I'd love to see other players be able to step inside their foundry designs and actually DM and control the encounters. That'd be awesome, and hopefully it's on Cryptic's radar as a "need to add" feature after launch.
But what's frustrating is to see great criticisms like yours buried beneath so much back and forth over hating 4E that the devs never get to see it.
Comments
The UGC is the only saving grace for Neverwinter and even then they need to expand player's freedom with Persistent World and DM hosted event capabilities. Sure the game looks pretty but that's not the end all be all in a game.
Of the free archetypes The Grimoire maps to a Wizard (or Magic user), The Blade is roughly like a Fighter, The Marksman is like a Ranger, The Radiant is vaguely like a healing Cleric and The Unleashed is like well, maybe a Paladin (or Jedhi?).
Then you'll be able to recommend what changes can be done to NO to make it more like D&D4, or even may like D&D instead.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
jedidethfreak823,
It's not that saying 'we want free form classes' isn't constructive in a sense...
It's more along the lines that the reality of the situation dictates it will not happen. The game can be improved by other smaller steps until free form classes can be worked on.
Basically if possible feedback is drowned out by 'free form classes' then chances are nothing will get done.
*please check your PM's jedidethfreak823*
NWN 1 class creation and class building. copy paste it then just balance feats and stats for mmo. I really can't see what is so hard? Yeah sure some will pop up and say oh you are not a programator you have no idea..
Response in advance: They are a game making corporation. It's they're job to do things like this. Why focus so much on face and moustache lenght and so little on the things that affect the gameplay like feats,skills,spells,classes etc. ? I just don't get it.
You all know that the d&d fans are not kids that eat graphics and special efects, most of us can live with some low <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> magic missiles as long as this is d&d. Rember that we got only tiny plastic statuets, a map and imagination when we play the board game.
Please focus more on character creation,character build,d&d mechanics.
I am willing to even give up to more races and classes (for now) just focus on making the game more d&d. Sheer content can be added later
I don't mind having the builds as specific classes really. It shows what would inevitably happen if you had a freeform character and you min-maxed it (you'd get a build). Now if you could go and sort of "zoom in" to customize those builds, it would add a new layer of depth to your character. This is old news, but I haven't seen a viable solution yet.
This version of D&D focuses on 4 roles, right? Striker, control, leader, and defender. Sometimes people want to play a certain class, but not be locked into a certain role. A GWF may be the leader of the group, cleric might end up controlling more, etc.
If you have a talent tree-like system in place, we could keep the builds as classes (as you're doing now), and your "talent tree" (almost like a Paragon Path from Lv1) could influence the powers you get or specialize in. What would these trees be? Well, striker, controller, leader, and defender, of course. Play the role you want, with the class you want. More specialization in a specific role or tree would be ideal, but you could also dabble in other roles (like how Borderlands did it kind of).
The beef of this would be finding (and/or creating) enough skills and powers to fill out each of the 4 roles for each and every individual class (build) that is created, and making sure they all play differently. This could potentially take a lot more time, but it would have a huge impact in customizing your character.
Aside from that, I vote for putting points into weapon proficiencies again! ^^
Actually the problem isn't one of development it is more a case of D&D4 versus D&D.
NWN 1 class creation and class building was based on D&D and if the NO was going to be based on that then using Cryptic to produce the MMO simply wouldn't make sense.
Since 2008 D&D itself was replaced by D&D4 with the old classes were completely overhauled to make a D&D-like game that was internally more consist with itself with lots of semi-random skill/powers that generally involved an attack with side-effects. Wizards in D&D4 don't actually have spells, instead they have spell-like skill/powers not much different from "non-magical" skill/powers.
I recommend that D&D players catch up with the D&D4 bowdlerisations as much as I would recommend purist D&D4 players look into the history of the D&D game to understand why D&D players will constantly arrive to say NO does not seem to resemble D&D.
If people plan to play NO, and use the forums, this point will constantly arise and it helps to realise (for example) that although in D&D the Magic Missile spell always tended to attack multiple targets in D&D4 it became a skill/power that only ever attacked one person. It doesn't help that D&D4 players refer to D&D4 as D&D, which deepens this kind of confusion.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I'm sorry, but no. Cryptic failed with City of Heroes. PARAGON STUDIOS and...I hate to say it....NCSoft succeeded. Once Cryptic sold it to NCSoft, the game got much better. More communication from its developers, more content, playtesters were actually listened to, new, innovative ideas were added to the game system...tons of other stuff. Cryptic cannot claim City of as "its" success, any more than they can claim the game as one of theirs. They sold it off. Abandoned it.
And let's face it...if Cryptic owned the IP for STO...it would be languishing now, too. Just like CO is. Sure, Star Trek has a built in fanbase numbering in the millions....but I'll bet dollars to donuts the actual population of that game isn't in the millions. Why? I can't say for sure, but speculation and logic say....dedicated fans of the genre view Cryptic as "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up the name". I'm reasonably certain, even though there's no actual proof beyond my personal observations and experience for all of this(well, except for the City of Heroes claim. THAT is truth.) that Cryptic is "under the gun" so to speak to develop content for STO, as Paramount still owns the IP and technically can yank it from Cryptic the moment Paramount feels Cryptic is losing more than it's taking in.
And don't blame Marvel pulling out for CO's "failure". When a game company doesn't add content to a game in a year or more, THAT is when it fails. When developers won't even pop in to respond to the players on the forums for more than a year, THAT is when a game fails. The onus of Co's "failure" is dead on Cryptic's lap, nobody else's.
It's alright though, syber....you're a paid Cryptic employee. You CAN'T talk the truth about your company. You kinda have to play them up so they don't come down on you. It's alright. I understand.
But back to the topic at hand....I've actually posted my opinion on this subject before...but I'll reiterate. No. Not D&D. Not even in spirit.
There are so many things I can point out to justify that claim...but I'll stick with the most glaringly obvious. Clerics that worship different gods get DIFFERENT HOLY SYMBOLS. Every video I've seen, every cleric has that gods-awful chain connected abomination, and it looks identical to every other cleric's. For a company that people say has gotten character customization down to a science....that's tripe. And purely Cryptic's fault.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Wrong, he is a volunteer moderator. aka he doesn't get paid. He
Neverwinter Wiki
And in responce to visionstorm01's Sharnwall of text: You call attention to all the systematic changes to D&D over the years, which itself if a testament to how Neverwinter has truly captured the spirit of D&D: The builds and stats and rules will be in a state of constant flux. These parts of D&D will never be consistent, yet the dungeons, and the dragons and the adventure is what D&D has always been, and that is what Neverwinter has captured.
Even if this is not the D&D that you know it is a New D&D an Evolved D&D.
the fact moderators are working for free does not make them less cryptic employee...they signed an agreement and have a job to performed, they get directives from paid cryptic employees how to do their job...and they can get dismissed at anytime...i honestly don t believe they have full freedom of speech or if they do they got picked up cause they seem to have moderate to positive opinions about the game...
i think it s about personal feelings, it has D&D on it, it s supported by WotC, it s heroic fantasy...that s plenty enough for some people...the fact it s trying to mimic loosely the latest edition does not change anything...it s an official DnDish game.
Based on my personal experience (computer game and pnp), it s just another (heavy) action fantasy RPG MMO in a DnD settings, that s it. IMO NWO is a DnD game like start trek pinball was a star trek game.
http://nw.perfectworld.com/about/foundry
STO has a foundry too, so does that make it D&D also?
While creating content is iconic to D&D it is not everything. Character building and progression is a major element along with choices both of which are absent in Neverwinter. Neverwinter is a watered down D&D experience.
Does the STO foundry use the iconic D&D setting?
And honestly, what we're seeing here is the stark divide that's always going to be a part of every edition of D&D. It's at every table, every conference, and in every forum.
You have those people who rollplay character sheets and those who roleplay characters.
I've been at gaming tables where, when asked to describe their characters, they talk about their appearance, personality and mannerisms. One person's rogue mighe be describe as:
"Jack dresses in tight leather clothes, with a loose cloak hiding various weapons within. He's always quick with a joke, or a retort as sharp as his daggers. Even when walking normally, he moves with a quite grace that might betray his cat-like reflexes. While always appearing cool and calm, his eyes are constantly darting about, following even the smallest movements, and his ear keens to even the faintest of sounds."
Other people read their character sheet.
Somone else's rogue is: "Jack is a Level 2 Rogue/Level 1 Ranger mutliclass. He dual wields +1 daggers, and wears magical +1 leather armor. He can sneak attack for an extra +1d6 damage once per turn, has a +8 to spot and a +12 to listen. His magic boots give him a +5 bonus to moving silently."
Now you tell me, which version of D&D was each character created in, and which one is MORE D&D than the other? Which one IS D&D and which one isn't?
Ever been at a gaming table where the fighter says, "I pick up that bow." Then the DM says, "Sorry, you can't pick up a bow, you're not the right class."?
You understand that this is a video game, and not a D&D tabletop simulator, right?
Yes, I do. Did you know Neverwinter Nights was a video game? Fighters could use bows in NWN. It's 20 years later and now you can't?
Evolution? I think not. Something seems backwards here.
Dungeons and Dragons for years opened up doorways, not closed them. The earlier systems were rudimentary. They got better edition by edition, until... what? I'm not sure exactly, but if people are saying this is evolutionary I think they're a bit confused.
That is a HUGE matter of opinion not a fact.
I must have missed signing that agreement.
One of the first questions we asked was if we could or could not post in a negative tone about the game and it was made very clear our freedom of speech would not be impeded by our position.
In fact it was almost encouraged to keep the distinction between mods and players to a minimum. What Cryptic wants us to be first and foremost are positive members of the player community.
Sure we try to keep unhappy posts to a minimum but we are in no way obligated to post happy happy about the games.
If you see a positive post it's genuine. We don't play devil's advocate.
Wrong; they cannot give us tasks, orders, directives, or anything of the kind. The only thing they can do is override our actions and/or dismiss us. I have in fact been moderated myself since becoming a moderator. Our only directives how to do our job are the forum rules. If they were able to give us orders, they'd run afoul of California and Federal labor laws and have to pay us.
I have disagreed with Cryptic's decisions publicly on multiple occasions. If I didn't think their vision was fundamentally sound, however, I wouldn't want to moderate their forums. It's the same with the other moderators.
I still feel strongly about the rest of the post, however. 4e isn't D&D to me. At all.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
No kidding. Some of these people feel the need to bash 4E as though they're on a holy crusade.
ooh I have!
I was playing a cleric and apparently my class felt it was wrong to shoot somebody.
Bit of a different argument there but it has happened. But as another said, fourth edition is vastly different than any other..and this live action combat is different yet based on fourth edition.
Some limits were unavoidable at the current time frame but arguing about whether fourth edition is or is not D&D is pointless. I don't hold it against people for not liking fourth edition...honestly it's my least favorite too...
But bickering about official D&D versions won't get us anywhere...
And one thing I can promise above anything else there is absolutely No chance this game will be modified to resemble anything but fourth edition No matter how much anybody would prefer a different version.
How about discussion on the thread subject?
Just because NW is based on 4e and not under constraint to adhere to every detail doesn't mean they can go very far from the theme without getting flak.
They seem like they very much want to stay close and we are just helping them do exactly that.
Solutions are like that. You address the problem and the leadership supplies the tools to move ahead.
I voted no for a very good reason: squeaky wheel gets the grease.
My issues: No DM client....I can see why on the main server but not in the user created adventures.
They are doing pretty well solving all of my issues and doubts. No reason to get all lovey dovey until the job is complete.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
Just like any other edition, you can gain any proficiency in any class in fourth edition too. The fact of 4th edition has nothing to do at all with any argument of limitations.
Fourth edition is vastly diverse and there is no locking of any kind at all. It is even more versatile than 3rd edition when considered that it does not have alignment locks over classes.
Blaming limitations of game on fourth edition is very misleading and untrue.
EDIT:
Besides the game's mechanics have nothing to do with 4e PnP mechanics at all except for faking of similar names and "trend keywords" picked from the PnP books.
A DM client would be good but NO is a D&D4 MMO, based on a superhuman MMO, rather than another NeverWinter Nights.
Such a game should nether-the-less be very entertaining. I certainly have enjoyed the base game, Champions Online.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Exactly. This is a perfect example. It's system agnostic, and would be a desired feature regardless of what edition D&D we're playing.
Personally, I'd love to see other players be able to step inside their foundry designs and actually DM and control the encounters. That'd be awesome, and hopefully it's on Cryptic's radar as a "need to add" feature after launch.
But what's frustrating is to see great criticisms like yours buried beneath so much back and forth over hating 4E that the devs never get to see it.