Okay, then I shall edit it and list it better. I appreciate good grammar and always will be there to help.
My apologies if that is not what you meant in your reply.
You do know that I am dislexic and reading/writing is not my strong point no ?:)
If the game does not have D&D character creation (one of the most important parts of the game for me) I will not play it.
Download -> install -> create character different from D&D rules -> Delete game.
The fighting and gameplay I allready know that they are different from D&D. It's not on rounds it's a cursive action arcade like.
So the game will only have names from D&D -> not D&D game just a game with D&D polish
0
providenttMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Not the system I'd like, but it's the system we're getting. I'm sure it'll still be functional and everything and I'll still really enjoy the game for what it is.
You do know that I am dislexic and reading/writing is not my strong point no ?:)
If the game does not have D&D character creation (one of the most important parts of the game for me) I will not play it.
Download -> install -> create character different from D&D rules -> Delete game.
The fighting and gameplay I allready know that they are different from D&D. It's not on rounds it's a cursive action arcade like.
So the game will only have names from D&D -> not D&D game just a game with D&D polish
Also note that the nature of MMOs is to evolve over time. With patches and updates, they add more content and get better (or sometimes worse....), and hopefully closer to the target audience's ideal game. What they release at launch (after open beta) won't necessarily be the final product before the game dies.
Call me crazy, but I'm going to defend the 0/5 feat bit. Here is why.
A feat system (or Alternate Advancement system) is pretty grounded into game mechanics. Changing that after launch would take a good sized version update. If the clip is true-- I think they are keeping true to the genre.
Consider that leveling is 3 NWO levels = 1 4e Level. Right? Also, disclaimer, NWO != 4e... but it is pulling 'What made 4e fun and can we move that to NWO?' in it.
If we got 1 feat every two levels in 4e thats the same as saying I get 6 talent points every two 'levels' (6 NWO levels) to spend. A full 'talent' in the tree is only 5 points-- which makes up for the extra feats you would otherwise get at level 1 and 11 (you actually end up ahead). So if you are looking to translate this into the 1:1 you see in 4/3.5, which NWO cant do because of the different way you level, consider it at 6:5 instead.
Call me crazy, but I'm going to defend the 0/5 feat bit. Here is why.
A feat system (or Alternate Advancement system) is pretty grounded into game mechanics. Changing that after launch would take a good sized version update. If the clip is true-- I think they are keeping true to the genre.
Consider that leveling is 3 NWO levels = 1 4e Level. Right? Also, disclaimer, NWO != 4e... but it is pulling 'What made 4e fun and can we move that to NWO?' in it.
If we got 1 feat every two levels in 4e thats the same as saying I get 6 talent points every two 'levels' (6 NWO levels) to spend. A full 'talent' in the tree is only 5 points-- which makes up for the extra feats you would otherwise get at level 1 and 11 (you actually end up ahead). So if you are looking to translate this into the 1:1 you see in 4/3.5, which NWO cant do because of the different way you level, consider it at 6:5 instead.
However those aren't feats you described but an MMO talent point system, all the way down to being tiered. Feats are crucial decisions that dramatically affects your character and build. If they are going for the talent tree system that it seems to be going for, then please don't refer to them as feats as they clearly are not.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You do know that I am dislexic and reading/writing is not my strong point no ?:)
If the game does not have D&D character creation (one of the most important parts of the game for me) I will not play it.
Download -> install -> create character different from D&D rules -> Delete game.
The fighting and gameplay I allready know that they are different from D&D. It's not on rounds it's a cursive action arcade like.
So the game will only have names from D&D -> not D&D game just a game with D&D polish
However those aren't feats you described but an MMO talent point system, all the way down to being tiered. Feats are crucial decisions that dramatically affects your character and build. If they are going for the talent tree system that it seems to be going for, then please don't refer to them as feats as they clearly are not.
There is character creation. NDA is still up so can;t detail. ANd I'm also a bit dyslexic but still believe in Dog.
And D&D feats are translated to work in an MMO setting syfylis.
However those aren't feats you described but an MMO talent point system, all the way down to being tiered. Feats are crucial decisions that dramatically affects your character and build. If they are going for the talent tree system that it seems to be going for, then please don't refer to them as feats as they clearly are not.
Eh. You are getting hung up on semantics. If someone told me that to pick up a Fighter's Weapon Specialization Feat for +5 damage as a 'feat' in 4e-- and it translated into +1/2/3/4/5 in NWO... there is literally no difference. When I am level 2 in 4e, I do +5 damage by picking up that feat. When I am level 2(6) in NWO I do +5 damage by putting 5 points into that talent.
The tiered part is the only thing that isnt the same. It is just a requirement so that you don't have the same confusing pre-reqs in 4E: Must Be Dwarf, Str 15+, BAB +4. Versus 'Must have 2 feats (10 points) in Dwarf Rage'.
TL;DR: 3.5e/4e Feats are a mechanic for alternate advancement rewards when you level up. Talent trees are a mechanic for alternate advancement rewards when you level up. They are similar.
I'll add my two cents worth, as a long time player of D&D, and in particular Neverwinter Nights. I can see both sides of the argument, and validity in both. On the one hand, you have the "D&D Purists," who want to be able to have that carefully crafted character, who may be a rogue, or a fighter, or whatever, but is also very different from other rogues and fighters in more than just roleplay aspects, essentially through feat and skill selection. On the other, you have the more MMO minded players, who enjoy the standard MMO style progression systems for their simplicity and ease of use (and for many this includes not really having to learn a rule set).
One of the things I like about the D&D system historically is that any character can be made to be versatile, or highly specialized, or extremely unique, based on the race, class/multclassing, skill, and feat choices. Among my favourite characters in Neverwinter Nights (under the 3.0 ruleset), were a ranger/shadowdancer swordsman, and a paladin/cleric archer. Using feat choices, I could make a paladin that was not only viable as an archer, as well as very skilled with a scimitar, but was in fact more powerful than an arcane archer, using divine feats and spells, and unorthodox feat selections for the paladin type. Item power never outpaced spell power of the same level, usually capped at +5. That sort of freedom is what I like about D&D (I never really bothered with the Forgotten Realms stuff, preferring to play custom campaigns/servers). Losing out on that kind of customization in a D&D title is a bit disheartening, because multiclassing and freedom of feat selection was always something that I really enjoyed, and unique character concepts will be much more difficult to think up. I'm one of those who plays to make a powerful character as well as one that's fun to RP, and with reasonable stats (no 8 wisdom just to get higher dexterity in a rogue). I'm trying to get past this point and give the game a fair chance, because in spite of this, it's still likely going to be the game most like Neverwinter Nights that will be made any time soon, in terms of allowing custom campaigns and the like.
Now, we already know that NWO is a strong departure from the D&D ruleset in terms of game mechanics. Just watching the damage numbers ranging from 90 to 5400 in some of the videos I've seen shows that. We thus need a system where the feats are applicable to the game mechanics that already exist. Getting a 1d6 sneak attack, or +5 damage from power attack, or +2 or +4 damage from weapon specialization will do little in the grand scheme of things when damage numbers are regularly over 1000. The overall result would be about 1% increased damage for three feats. Similarly, attack bonus feats would mean even less in a system where you manually target and don't just tell your avatar to 'kill that orc,' since manual missing as well as dice-based missing would result in more misses than mechanics alone would dictate. Much of this probably stems from what I call 'big number syndrome' (the compulsive need to have higher and higher numbers to show steady progression), which is well demonstrated by the point where the Final Fantasy series opted to uncap the 9999 damage limit.
The forementioned need for a relevant system means that the feat system becomes something other than what a D&D player will readily recognize, and in part becomes a hurdle to those stuck in their golden days of gaming from the second or third edition books. Is it forgivable? That depends on if the player is willing to see it as something other than traditional D&D being turned into something else, which can be difficult given the title.
TLDR
The MMO and high numbered combat mechanics render almost all of the standard D&D feats irrelevant, so a new system had to be made up as they went, but this is at the cost of some of the D&D franchise's most enduring qualities, character uniqueness, and ability to be powerful while playing an entirely unorthodox character (Mages in full plate, fighters in cloth using weapon finesse with a few rogue levels as dex tanks, paladin archers).
Much of this probably stems from what I call 'big number syndrome' (the compulsive need to have higher and higher numbers to show steady progression), which is well demonstrated by the point where the Final Fantasy series opted to uncap the 9999 damage limit.
Larger numbers are much better than smaller numbers for an MMO (to a point obviously, we don't need 1,651,725 point hits) this is why. Ok so lets say that you are trying to balance damage on a weapon and that weapons does say 1-8 points of damage. Now you want to reduce its overall damage by 5%. Now you need to either add decimal places to everything including hit points or you can make the damage 100 - 800 and scale all numbers the same and now you can scale up and down as little as 1% without causing display or math problems. Now lets say you change that to 1000 - 8000, not with no problems you can scale as much as .1% and not have a problem. Now I think the 1000 - 8000 range is unnecessary as making .1% changes should not really be necessary for balancing reasons and it was just to make a point, but 100 - 800 well that makes it much easier than 1 - 8.
As far as the reason being to show steady progression, that is all in game design. Sometimes that increase is not to show steady progression but to render certain content void or to create a need to make old items ineffective for new content. Not my favorite thing but it is a strategy.
A point I'm familiar with, and can agree to. I've done a lot of math with the D&D system, and you tend to be working with differences of 1-2 damage on the whole, when working with immunities or resistances, due to the way percentages will calculate. That's good for dice, due to using the small numbers meant to be calculated around a table, but not necesarily computers, where hundreds of calculations to the 50th decimal place can happen in fractions of a second. The point I meant to make, however, was that due to this change of the system (through scaling mostly) it does render many of the feats from D&D useless right out of the box. Granted they could be recalculated to affect a similar result, but they would still be different.
Most people probably don't want to play a character that can be killed instantly by the weapon damage of a level 1 NPC before strength bonus is figured in (rogue with 1d6 HP vs a longsword of 1d8). This means scaling, and rebalancing to make it less 'hardcore' than the D&D books would otherwise allow for, particularly as there's no DM to fuzz the dice roll with an injury that could be treatable. It's all part of the give and take between PnP game and MMO. My only real disappointment is the apparent lack of being able to go against the grain with a character concept, in terms of multiclassing, or choosing to use feats/gear that would be atypical of a given class. Much of the fun in D&D is experimentation.
Larger numbers are much better than smaller numbers for an MMO (to a point obviously, we don't need 1,651,725 point hits) this is why. Ok so lets say that you are trying to balance damage on a weapon and that weapons does say 1-8 points of damage. Now you want to reduce its overall damage by 5%. Now you need to either add decimal places to everything including hit points or you can make the damage 100 - 800 and scale all numbers the same and now you can scale up and down as little as 1% without causing display or math problems. Now lets say you change that to 1000 - 8000, not with no problems you can scale as much as .1% and not have a problem. Now I think the 1000 - 8000 range is unnecessary as making .1% changes should not really be necessary for balancing reasons and it was just to make a point, but 100 - 800 well that makes it much easier than 1 - 8.
As far as the reason being to show steady progression, that is all in game design. Sometimes that increase is not to show steady progression but to render certain content void or to create a need to make old items ineffective for new content. Not my favorite thing but it is a strategy.
I have to disagree with your example of large numbers being there for balance reasons. I think it is there purely for psychological reasons.
I also think it is the same reason they split the levels into smaller chunks. All these changes are there to make person "feel" like they are stronger and making progress.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
*sniffs* Me want ranger
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have to disagree with your example of large numbers being there for balance reasons. I think it is there purely for psychological reasons.
I also think it is the same reason they split the levels into smaller chunks. All these changes are there to make person "feel" like they are stronger and making progress.
No clue why. Can't say I'm a fan. I'll just look at the bars for them and me and figure it out that way.
Comments
You do know that I am dislexic and reading/writing is not my strong point no ?:)
If the game does not have D&D character creation (one of the most important parts of the game for me) I will not play it.
Download -> install -> create character different from D&D rules -> Delete game.
The fighting and gameplay I allready know that they are different from D&D. It's not on rounds it's a cursive action arcade like.
So the game will only have names from D&D -> not D&D game just a game with D&D polish
Also note that the nature of MMOs is to evolve over time. With patches and updates, they add more content and get better (or sometimes worse....), and hopefully closer to the target audience's ideal game. What they release at launch (after open beta) won't necessarily be the final product before the game dies.
A feat system (or Alternate Advancement system) is pretty grounded into game mechanics. Changing that after launch would take a good sized version update. If the clip is true-- I think they are keeping true to the genre.
Consider that leveling is 3 NWO levels = 1 4e Level. Right? Also, disclaimer, NWO != 4e... but it is pulling 'What made 4e fun and can we move that to NWO?' in it.
If we got 1 feat every two levels in 4e thats the same as saying I get 6 talent points every two 'levels' (6 NWO levels) to spend. A full 'talent' in the tree is only 5 points-- which makes up for the extra feats you would otherwise get at level 1 and 11 (you actually end up ahead). So if you are looking to translate this into the 1:1 you see in 4/3.5, which NWO cant do because of the different way you level, consider it at 6:5 instead.
However those aren't feats you described but an MMO talent point system, all the way down to being tiered. Feats are crucial decisions that dramatically affects your character and build. If they are going for the talent tree system that it seems to be going for, then please don't refer to them as feats as they clearly are not.
There is character creation. NDA is still up so can;t detail. ANd I'm also a bit dyslexic but still believe in Dog.
And D&D feats are translated to work in an MMO setting syfylis.
Eh. You are getting hung up on semantics. If someone told me that to pick up a Fighter's Weapon Specialization Feat for +5 damage as a 'feat' in 4e-- and it translated into +1/2/3/4/5 in NWO... there is literally no difference. When I am level 2 in 4e, I do +5 damage by picking up that feat. When I am level 2(6) in NWO I do +5 damage by putting 5 points into that talent.
The tiered part is the only thing that isnt the same. It is just a requirement so that you don't have the same confusing pre-reqs in 4E: Must Be Dwarf, Str 15+, BAB +4. Versus 'Must have 2 feats (10 points) in Dwarf Rage'.
TL;DR: 3.5e/4e Feats are a mechanic for alternate advancement rewards when you level up. Talent trees are a mechanic for alternate advancement rewards when you level up. They are similar.
One of the things I like about the D&D system historically is that any character can be made to be versatile, or highly specialized, or extremely unique, based on the race, class/multclassing, skill, and feat choices. Among my favourite characters in Neverwinter Nights (under the 3.0 ruleset), were a ranger/shadowdancer swordsman, and a paladin/cleric archer. Using feat choices, I could make a paladin that was not only viable as an archer, as well as very skilled with a scimitar, but was in fact more powerful than an arcane archer, using divine feats and spells, and unorthodox feat selections for the paladin type. Item power never outpaced spell power of the same level, usually capped at +5. That sort of freedom is what I like about D&D (I never really bothered with the Forgotten Realms stuff, preferring to play custom campaigns/servers). Losing out on that kind of customization in a D&D title is a bit disheartening, because multiclassing and freedom of feat selection was always something that I really enjoyed, and unique character concepts will be much more difficult to think up. I'm one of those who plays to make a powerful character as well as one that's fun to RP, and with reasonable stats (no 8 wisdom just to get higher dexterity in a rogue). I'm trying to get past this point and give the game a fair chance, because in spite of this, it's still likely going to be the game most like Neverwinter Nights that will be made any time soon, in terms of allowing custom campaigns and the like.
Now, we already know that NWO is a strong departure from the D&D ruleset in terms of game mechanics. Just watching the damage numbers ranging from 90 to 5400 in some of the videos I've seen shows that. We thus need a system where the feats are applicable to the game mechanics that already exist. Getting a 1d6 sneak attack, or +5 damage from power attack, or +2 or +4 damage from weapon specialization will do little in the grand scheme of things when damage numbers are regularly over 1000. The overall result would be about 1% increased damage for three feats. Similarly, attack bonus feats would mean even less in a system where you manually target and don't just tell your avatar to 'kill that orc,' since manual missing as well as dice-based missing would result in more misses than mechanics alone would dictate. Much of this probably stems from what I call 'big number syndrome' (the compulsive need to have higher and higher numbers to show steady progression), which is well demonstrated by the point where the Final Fantasy series opted to uncap the 9999 damage limit.
The forementioned need for a relevant system means that the feat system becomes something other than what a D&D player will readily recognize, and in part becomes a hurdle to those stuck in their golden days of gaming from the second or third edition books. Is it forgivable? That depends on if the player is willing to see it as something other than traditional D&D being turned into something else, which can be difficult given the title.
TLDR
The MMO and high numbered combat mechanics render almost all of the standard D&D feats irrelevant, so a new system had to be made up as they went, but this is at the cost of some of the D&D franchise's most enduring qualities, character uniqueness, and ability to be powerful while playing an entirely unorthodox character (Mages in full plate, fighters in cloth using weapon finesse with a few rogue levels as dex tanks, paladin archers).
One's at the end of their left leg, the other at the end of their right leg.
Wow that was really bad. I think you need a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!!
Larger numbers are much better than smaller numbers for an MMO (to a point obviously, we don't need 1,651,725 point hits) this is why. Ok so lets say that you are trying to balance damage on a weapon and that weapons does say 1-8 points of damage. Now you want to reduce its overall damage by 5%. Now you need to either add decimal places to everything including hit points or you can make the damage 100 - 800 and scale all numbers the same and now you can scale up and down as little as 1% without causing display or math problems. Now lets say you change that to 1000 - 8000, not with no problems you can scale as much as .1% and not have a problem. Now I think the 1000 - 8000 range is unnecessary as making .1% changes should not really be necessary for balancing reasons and it was just to make a point, but 100 - 800 well that makes it much easier than 1 - 8.
As far as the reason being to show steady progression, that is all in game design. Sometimes that increase is not to show steady progression but to render certain content void or to create a need to make old items ineffective for new content. Not my favorite thing but it is a strategy.
Most people probably don't want to play a character that can be killed instantly by the weapon damage of a level 1 NPC before strength bonus is figured in (rogue with 1d6 HP vs a longsword of 1d8). This means scaling, and rebalancing to make it less 'hardcore' than the D&D books would otherwise allow for, particularly as there's no DM to fuzz the dice roll with an injury that could be treatable. It's all part of the give and take between PnP game and MMO. My only real disappointment is the apparent lack of being able to go against the grain with a character concept, in terms of multiclassing, or choosing to use feats/gear that would be atypical of a given class. Much of the fun in D&D is experimentation.
I have to disagree with your example of large numbers being there for balance reasons. I think it is there purely for psychological reasons.
I also think it is the same reason they split the levels into smaller chunks. All these changes are there to make person "feel" like they are stronger and making progress.
This pun critically hit me and left me prone.
Or in other words:
The answer let me without a leg to stand on!
Gods, now I'M doing it...
No clue why. Can't say I'm a fan. I'll just look at the bars for them and me and figure it out that way.