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Protecting Paladin vs Guardian Fighter
byph
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 10 Arc User
I'm all for seeing a Protecting Paladin class in this game, but how would it distinguish itself from the existing Guardian Fighter?
Equipment
- Largely the same, in fact the artwork in the official Guardian Fighter video including the shield coat of arms and the winged helmets strike me as rather paladin-like.
Blocks
- It seems like you'd want the same block mechanic for both shield users
Damage and dailes
- Here's where they divurge. Fighters are strength-based and do physical damage.
- Paladins tend to do more radiant damage. However, if damage types are not implemented then this difference is negated.
Stats
- Fighters typically focus on Strength/Constitution or maybe Strength/Dexterity.
- Paladins have a number of options: Strength/Wisdom (Straladin), Charisma (Chaladins), or balanced (Baladins)
Stickiness
- The threat mechanics, or "marks" are different for the Fighters and Paladins in 4E, but I don't know that we've seen if marks have been implemented.
Non-AC Defenses (NADs)
- No tank is perfect, and good game design will drive a tank to specialize to some degree (AOE vs. single target, threat generation vs. health pool vs. damage mitigation, damage avoidance vs. damage resistance, etc.). In D&D 4E, it seems that every tank has at least one relatively vulnerable NAD (or in the case of the Baladin, no strong one). A Strength/Dexterity Fighter has high Fortitude and Reflex but low Will. A Strength/Wisdom Straladin or Charisma/Constitution Chaladin will have high Fortitude and Will but low Reflex. A good party will know their enemy and try to use the right tank for the job.
Equipment
- Largely the same, in fact the artwork in the official Guardian Fighter video including the shield coat of arms and the winged helmets strike me as rather paladin-like.
Blocks
- It seems like you'd want the same block mechanic for both shield users
Damage and dailes
- Here's where they divurge. Fighters are strength-based and do physical damage.
- Paladins tend to do more radiant damage. However, if damage types are not implemented then this difference is negated.
Stats
- Fighters typically focus on Strength/Constitution or maybe Strength/Dexterity.
- Paladins have a number of options: Strength/Wisdom (Straladin), Charisma (Chaladins), or balanced (Baladins)
Stickiness
- The threat mechanics, or "marks" are different for the Fighters and Paladins in 4E, but I don't know that we've seen if marks have been implemented.
Non-AC Defenses (NADs)
- No tank is perfect, and good game design will drive a tank to specialize to some degree (AOE vs. single target, threat generation vs. health pool vs. damage mitigation, damage avoidance vs. damage resistance, etc.). In D&D 4E, it seems that every tank has at least one relatively vulnerable NAD (or in the case of the Baladin, no strong one). A Strength/Dexterity Fighter has high Fortitude and Reflex but low Will. A Strength/Wisdom Straladin or Charisma/Constitution Chaladin will have high Fortitude and Will but low Reflex. A good party will know their enemy and try to use the right tank for the job.
Post edited by byph on
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Avenging paladin will probably like 2 handed fighter with some powers of healing and radiant.
EDIT: Also the three classes shown are different from each other because of different roles. Witin same roles, class mechanics will probably a lot similar with fewer variations.
I could be wrong about that, but it's a guess. Since they do the same basic thing, but one is a little stronger/flashier (but not by a ton) it would be sort of like the Guardian Fighter being an Assault Cruiser, and the Protecting Paladin being an Assault Cruiser Refit. Not being pay 2 win, you could become a Protecting Paladin by sinking a lot of time into the game, and slowly trading up for it (like people do in STO) or just drop $25 and get it instantly and bypass a month or so of work.
Races have not yet been explicitly said to be free, but it seems like it.
And now don't go bashing that cryptic says and won't keep their promise for the only data/statement we know of I have presented above. If and when they go back on their word, that would be the time to unleash Rage. If you rage now, you will be rage-fatigued by the time it is actually justified and required.
I think they might not even include a build if it's too redundant to fighter or (more likely) devoted cleric for a while, but as STO shows, there will be slight variances and special power abilities classes (ships were "classes" too right) can do in their actions (for specialty things from STO to NWO, translated to dailies refillable power globe,) as well as a mix of both offensive and defensive capabilities instead of the cleric's offensive and healing abilities or fighter's offensive and blocking abilities.
When they release devoted cleric as a class formally, I can go into specific details about those powers how they translated in an MMO game, but it's currently in the dev testing stages and extremely heavily under NDA. All of what little I mentioned for them might change even.
The moves will vastly differ too - rogues dummy, even its attacks are very very different.
But inside of one role, the powers will mostly do the same thing - slowing enemies, doing damage etc. just the way to do it will be different. For example, while control mage may use only ice magic, a telekinetic psion will use "Slow time" on enemies which will actually do the same thing, but with different animation and other fanfare.
Yes and no, in STO you have your character who chooses a race and a class, there are only three "classes" which are Science, Engineering, and Tactical, that each provide a few powers as you level up, most of your abillities come from skills you learn by distributing the points you earn as you level. More skills unlock as you advance through the ranks. There is both a ground and a space game, with the space game being far superior. Your ship basically acts as your character in space, but it's abillities and how it performs are largely governed by skills as well as what abillities you slot into it. Each class of ship has some differances though in terms of it's base hull strength, shield multiplier, what bridge stations it has to assign bridge officer abillities (you actually have sub-characters under your captain that can go down with him/her on missions and such), and it's exact number and type of console slots and weapon mounts. You have three general catagories of ships, Escorts, Cruisers, and Science vessels, each roughly cooresponding to the three classes (though nothing forces you to fly the specialized ship class for your character class) and there are varients with slightly differant abillities and layouts like Exploration Cruisers as opposed to Assault Cruisers, and Advanced Escorts as opposed to Patrol Escorts and so on. The ships they happen to sell tend to have slightly better stats in terms of hull strength, bridge officer slots, and things like that, and most come with a special console that when equipped gives that ship something special it can do, many of these consoles can also be transferred to other kinds of ships so if you say buy a lower tier ship the money it spent doesn't become "useless" when you advance, since you have the option to transfer it's console to your higher tier ship. The value of the C-store ship consoles is debatable and there is equipment comparable stat wise to what they do. Not to mention it's unwise to say load up on all "special abillity" consoles and neglect your basic damage booster, armor, manuver, etc... consoles.
Champions Online (which I'll mention before I tie it all together) sells these things called "Become" devices, which totally transforms your super hero into another form (Robot, Genie, Demon, etc..) and totally overrides their powers, in some cases giving you powers you could not otherwise obtain (and these can be very powerful for low level heroes indeed). They cannot be used in PVP however. The reason I mention this is that each become device is basically an entirely differant character build you carry around in your device slots. If your character is say largely based around being ranged DPS, you could use a become device to turn into a healer form, a tank form, or a differant flavor of DPS. It's also fairly quick to transform so it can put a library of powers at your fingertips. You can't PVP with it, but it's important to note that it can be a HUGE advantage throughout the rest of the game. "Ooops, the healer is down, let's pop celestrial form, rez him, throw some heals, and then go back to DPS".
Champions online also sells "Archetypes" which are alternate build structures for free to play players who do not have freeform slots. Roughly cooresponding to character classes.
My predictions on where this will probably go is simply based on Cryptic's earlier behavior, not to mention that while I might have missed it, I don't remember them ever saying they wouldn't do something similar here (though I could have missed it). They did mention that they wouldn't sell magical items and such (which is probably an important distinction since Dungeons and Dragons online DOES sell them apparently), and that the game wouldn't be "pay to win", but that can mean a lot of things as Cryptic/PWE's business structure so far has ultimatly made paid points availible through trade for in-game currency, and has generally made equivilents to most items availible to all players. For example they just gave away a "Breen War Cruiser" for the Christmas event which is easily equal to the C-store ships, including it's own special abillity console. Last year for the STO anniversary they gave away an Odyssey Star Cruiser which was packed with universal bridge officer slots (and was crazy competitive for it's time). Champions Online makes Become devices availible for Questionite. In short if you play a lot, your not going to fall signifigantly behind the curve of people who invest money. That's incidently one of the reasons why i've paid for things to try and help keep the games supported, I think it's one of the better run FTP games I've seen.
At any rate, having only a handfull of character types wouldn't lead to much diversity in the player base. That's why I think the idea is to expand the number of character types through the C-store, mostly in terms of providing alternative versions of things you already have that might wind up with a slight edge (similar to how many character types do in PnP). If they allow an exchange of in game money for points, and run festivals and such a few times a year where people could unlock the abillity to play varient characters, it's not likely to be a huge deal for a dedicated player.
That said a FTP company does have to sell things that the player base is going to value. Purely cosmetic items and account services don't generated a whole lot of revenue on their own, things that people can actually use are a bit differant though. The trick of course is to make it so that those things don't totally unbalance the game away from free players, and how anything can be unlocked with enough play time (making spending money a matter of speeding things up, rather than getting things that nobody who hasn't invested money could ever have).
Hence why I mention that something like a "Protecting Paladin" sounds like Z-store fodder. It is kind of reundant with what the Guardian Fighter does, which is kind of the point, your not going to have to buy one to be an effective tank (even up to the endgame). Given the way the abillities function in an MMO, the Protecting Paladin probably comes with a bit of advantage in terms of engagement range and hurting various kinds of purely evil creatures as benefits a Paladin. A mild advantage, equivilent of one of the ship consoles in STO, where someone running around with an extra special attack on a 3 minute cooldown isn't going to break anything given how many attacks people have availible anyway, especially seeing as that abillity generally comes at the expense of loading more armor or a damage booster for whatever class of weapons your packing which arguably makes it a sidegrade at best, simply giving you another option. No argueing that the hull point bonuses and such are an advantage, but not all that major of one, in general your surviviability comes more from your skills than straight hull points, and your liable to get one shotted by a Borg torp no matter what you do (assuming it hits).
I don't know anything, this is purely speculation, I'm going into more detail to explain why I think this based on other Cryptic games. You might know more than I do, but I never remember seeing a statement saying this wasn't what they had in mind. But if they limit this game to a scant handfull of character classes (STO has 3, but it goes well beyond that given the ships and stuff) it might be balanced but I'm not sure how well that would support long term play. Especially seeing as everyone probably has their favorite character type, or non-standard sub-class or sub-race. Catering to that seems like a natural evolution of their business model.
Basically what truth is saying is about how powers look. In DDO, allthe fight moves are slashes. In NW, if you see videos, you will see how unique each move is - teleporting behind, putting a dummy out, slashes(for cleave), stabs(for rogue), block etc.
Next that he says is that the powers themsleves will vary due to stats and bonus as on main site - various races getting various bonus on stat - but in a single build, variations may not be very large.
(@truth Last para I don't really understand... :rolleyes:)
Classes in STO are not really a good comparison. STO does not have an official class system like D&D.
Also, unlike fake f2p that CO and STO are, NW will be pure-blooded f2p. So comparison of freeform does not translate well. Basically, everyone knows and considers freeforms as overpowered classes which they are - more like experiments you do after getting bored.
"Become" like in CO was something we asked devs about ages ago - if we can have it in foundry. All we got the response was, "the engine has that capability and in future"... so basically not yet but if users ask, they can.
"Regarding handful of character types" - they have not yet discussed what classes are in launch yet. But they have already clarified that classes would be added on regular interval as their NW engine makes it easy to add a new class. Comparing it with Sci-fi where more than a few classes are not even in lore is moot.
Lastly, first you are assuming that "It is kind of reundant with what the Guardian Fighter does, which is kind of the point" without even seeing what paladin does in this game. Then you are assuming that ""Protecting Paladin" sounds like Z-store fodder" which cryptic has its voice hoarse from crying everytime that CLASSES ARE FREE! - if only everytime I had a dollar...
So speculation should be based on something substantial. If they have said already that classes are free, you will have to drop speculations in contradiction to it unless they contradict themselves.
Well to be fair Champions is based off of a classless super hero RPG (PnP) where you have so many points to build a character. They couldn't quite do that in an MMO, but they tried to capture the flavor of it with the "Freeform" slots which were how characters were intended to be when the game first launched. I tend to see Freeform as being characters as they were intended to be, with Archetypes being a sort of "lite" version for free players.
That point aside, as I said in my ramble above, I personally do not remember seeing the bit about classes being free, but then again I'm relatively new.
I might not have explained what I was saying perfectly, or gotten distracted by my examples of their business model. My thought is simply that what we're talking about are builds under a specific class more than anything. If they say decide to release a Paladin and make it availible to everyone, that doesn't mean that alternative "builds" of Paladin are nessicarly going to be free. Sort of like the differance between an Assault Cruiser, and an Assault Cruiser Refit for example. This wouldn't exactly make them liars, because the classes ARE all free.
The initial point of this comparison in the thread, as I understood it, is that a "Protecting Paladin" would be pretty much exactly like a "Guardian Fighter" in terms of what it's supposed to do. I've simply been using the named class for point of referance since it's what was mentioned in the thread. I simply think characters that fill a redundant role, that could be filled by one of the basic builds would be perfect for Z-store fodder. If the Protecting Paladin winds up functionally doing the same thing as a "Guardian Fighter" despite the approach looking differant (yes I've seen the videos) it wouldn't be any big thing.
My theory is that they plan to make every class, Mage, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, etc.. availible for free with one or two varients of each, all of which bring slightly differant things to the table. Maybe not all at once, but they would be there. Then later for expansion and to make money off the game, they start selling alternative builds. For example if you want to play a Cleric who has a set of abillities that functionally makes him almost identical to a Control Mage (but you get to be a cleric) you might have to pay for that, BUT you can just choose to be a Cleric (the class) with one of the initial builds for free.
As I said, it's supposition based on observation, you could very well be right. Only time will tell.
The thing I'll mention is that being developed as a FTP game, as opposed to a subscription game that went FTP, the concept itself
has to include a way to make money. Running the game, and developing new content cost money, and on top of it the people financing this are out to make a profit. I don't begrudge them this as long as they do not get too ridiculous with it. To me at least, what I'm describing here seems fairly reasonable, and would still be possible under the promises you said they made given the differance between class and build.
Since we're inevitably both going to wind up playing after launch, I'd offer to bet you a beer in one of the game taverns, but alas I'm not entirely sure we'll be able to drink beer in game.
Also while I don't generally play it, I do have some familiarity with 4E (and own the rule books). I tend to gert scatter brained and ramble between editions, but I do indeed understand the basics of the current rules and lore changes. I'm just old and set in my ways. Ultimatly it's one of those things where I'm not going to knock 4E based on the superiority of dinosaur editions, but it should be noted that it's something I kind of "tolerate" for the sake of playing a game set in The Forgotten Realms (during any time period) rather than out of any paticular love for this generation of mechanics, that might seep through at times. Basically I tend to see editions since 2E (entirely subjectively, since that was my preferred editions) as largely telling me what I can't do, rather than giving me more options overall.
Classes are free. Adventure zones are free. In terms of devs, "We are never going to charge for them".
Races are assumed to be free but have not been explicitly pointed out like classes and adventure zones.
They have said they will charge only for vanity items and consumables.
*Ducks*
But we will see if therumancer's suggested idea would be done or not for "optional customization." Maybe they can test it in their testing server after the game launches.
Yeah, then "vanity consumables" will cost you.
*Whispered to*
Oh! I have been told that "Vanity Consumables" will not be on public display. You need to use the backdoor in Driftwood to make some shady deals.
*Whispered to*
Oh! I have been told that I was not supposed to tell you that.
S&P arrives and carries him away.
Uhh...gotta run...
*bolts from S&P*
Well if they do implements a protection paladin hopefully they actually make the distinction and style like WoW did with their Warr and Pally tanks unlike DDO where it was pretty much mirror abilities of the PrE and where Epic Destinies were not even class themed at all but more on the grounds of role as in there was no Fighter tanking ED or a Paladin DPS ED.
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If there will be paladins, don't do THIS.