iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
Long story short, Jack's info was when this was a co-op and no longer applies to the game's layout. Please don't use the "OMG" as a current "template" anymore as that 2+ year old article is out of date. Thank you.
I have re-read that several times to try to grasp what exactly Jack Emmert was trying to say and after so many times of reading it my concluding opinion is he describes a Co-Op.
It seems like all he said was that NW wouldn't be an MMO but it would support more players than the typical Co-Op. Take for instance the NWN PW worlds where we often only had 20-40 players on a server maximum.
In those instances there may be 3-4 parties on each server doing their own thing but for the most part everybody knew each other.
I feel he was more alluding to using modern technology to make a co-op more capable of supporting 100+ player servers so that there would be a lot of interactions, more so than NWN, but not truly breaking the boundary of having thousands of players on each server with hundreds of people in each area.
In a nutshell he said the game was to go into the gray area between co-op and MMO. Just because he wanted to make a distinction that the original plan for NW was to not limit Co-Op to 5-20 players doesn't mean it's an MMO or capable of handling MMO Demands.
The OMG he discussed is nothing more than a Co-Op capable of handling a lot of players.
EDIT - in this case my bus analogy would be:
Co-Op = Minivan
OMG = Small School Bus
MMO = Full-size School Bus
It's still a complete restructure of the original work.
Let's look at the key piece that it seems like is being ignored here and actually is the flaw in the Minivan to School bus analogy. The engine. A game engine can be likened to a chassis as well as the actual engine (powertrain), There are no chassis out there that allow for moving from a minivan to a school bus, but game engines allow more flexibility, especially when your engine is used to power other MMO's.
Neverwinter is being built on the same engine as STO and CO. In fact the foundry (the forge), a key part of Neverwinter and what was in fact the selling point of Neverwinter before the delay. It was designed for Neverwinter, but introduced into STO. The games run on the same engine they have many of the same working parts. Now when the OMG monkier came out people actually started applying it to STO in retrospect.
Based on Emmert's comments in that interview and others like it Neverwinter appears to have been planned originally to be like a STO in many ways heavily instanced for starters. But with less focus on any open world elements or developer made content. Imagine taking STO removing the sector space and having all missions launch from Earth Space dock. That would be the public space Emmert refers to, and the missions (all instanced) would be the private space.
Those of us who had experienced STO's launch six month before that interview actually saw the OMG monkier as rather appropriate for STO. In fact, I personally feel that the OMG term was partly coined as a result of STO's launch. Both CO and STO met to rather poor receptions because of how small they seemed compared to other MMO's, many people don't consider either of the MMO's to this day. Emmert himself never calls the game a cooperative in that interview, he refers to the Neverwinter IP as a cooperative RPG, but he actually uses the OMG monkier to correct the interviewer's referral to the Cryptic Neverwinter game as a cooperative.
Gillrmn point about Atari is probably spot on. Atari was clearly trying to shove another IP cash-grab game out the door like they did with STO.
I'm not denying that the focus has clearly shifted with Neverwinter, what I am saying is that the work that had been done was not for a completely unrelated style of game. Again, engine here is the key. Neverwinter is using the same engine as STO and CO, that alone means that most of the work done on the previous iteration was not necessarily completely shelved or thrown out. The foundry (forge) is another thing that wasn't thrown out.
The game is going to come out when it does, but I don't take the delay or their closed lips on somethings as any sign that they've rebuilt from ground up or that the game will be delayed again.
It isn't that hard to make Full-size school bus when you have all the spare part of school buses lying around. All they had to do was change the engine and put the body. It isn't that hard to do that for cryptic as that is what cryptic does - make MMOs. Not co-ops.
The quest storyline is still there. Art is still there. Most of the coding can be exported.
However I am glad that they took time to make it slowly and carefully instead as they really care about it. After all we don't need another daggerdale...
See my post above, but they had the engine, it is the same engine they've used for their other MMO's.
These posts and the articles they link to are great examples of why much of the underlying structure would need re-done to turn this from a Co-Op to MMO. A lot of the problems mentioned in these articles would require different solutions for each of those two systems.
LoL called OOP doesnt take them effort to move the earth, just takes time and they had a lot of time. Dont have give us beta to see how the game works just a Q&A with useful and new infomation. They said they just needed extra time to add PvP and polish the game. Polish doesnt mean a re-design of the game. Just means to make the game more sparkly and smoother.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
And that "polish" is what is subject to the most change.
You've seen the screenshots. You've seen the foundry.
What you haven't seen is the things subject to balancing changes such as class abilities.
And whether you want to accept the truth of the matter or not, if they were to say <classes> do <abilities> with <effects> and end up revoking those claims you would be even more upset than not hearing any news at all.
When the classes are finalized we'll hear about them.
See my post above, but they had the engine, it is the same engine they've used for their other MMO's.
Neverwinter is being built with a modifiedseehere version of the same engine used for Cryptic's two most recent MMORPGs -- Star Trek Online and Champions Online + now intergrating simplygon
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I really don't understand why people believe that they have scrapped the old game. It was never labled a single player RPG, it was called an OMG.
The Phantasy Star Online analogy is a little interesting, but since there were no plans for an Offline mode, I don't see it as 100% accurate. I have no reason to believe that the man hours poured into that original game and the foundry, which was the key aspect of Neverwinter at inception, have been lost.
Do I think that means the game will come out in three months, probably not. I wouldn't be surprised to see a late Feb/early March launch though April is where my bets lie. It could always get delayed more, but I doubt that. Cryptic is actually really good about supporting games post launch, so they have no need to launch with every little feature they hope to put in.
Certain manhours have not been lost certainly. Mainly those spent on things like character models and the foundry - which is what we've been shown so far btw.
But then there are things that have to be completely redone from scratch. Maps that were designed for a single co-op party simply cannot support several thousands at once. It simply cannot be done, they have to redisign them. Same with the way mobs and NPCs function. Then they have to add a lot of stuff in the game, and then rebalance the gameplay around those things. For example, making it a full MMO likely means the addition of an Auction house. that means that drop rates and drop patterns have to be altered, so as to make rare gear drops still mean something. And then they have to re-bugfix the entire thing.
I'm still pretty confident that we will have something in our hands come december or january.
Neverwinter is being built with a modifiedseehere version of the same engine used for Cryptic's two most recent MMORPGs -- Star Trek Online and Champions Online + now intergrating simplygon
Yes, but if I put a roush supercharger on my mustang engine it is still a mustang engine and the way I worked on it before remains largely the same. That's the point. The engine they used and are using is the same one they've used on MMO's in the past. This isn't a situation where they were builing Mario Kart and decided to make a Mario MMO. They were for all intents and purposes making an MMO lite and now it is being made into a full MMO.
I am saddened by the fact that the only thing to talk about anymore is that there really isn't anything to talk about.
They've got a user generated content system in the game so that we won't so quickly (or ever) run out of content, even though people can use up content fairly quickly.
Well all of us here on the forums have proved that and have used up all the content provided for us fairly quickly. What we really need is a user generated content system for news about the game, so that there'll be more content for us to discuss?
Anyone up for making up some news?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
Making up news?
By all means go and write some stories, create some artwork, make some you-tube videos...give Aandre some competition and start up another podcost.
I'd love to see it.
This is a rough time because there really is very little to share but there's really nothing that can be done about it. Here's a suggestion, go plan out your UGC Stories in Art and Fiction so you'll have a head start when The Foundry is released.
*Makes a mental note to ask for a Campaign Sub-Forum*
Ive been here almost year now I thought it was coming Q1 2012. Well luckily Rifts expansion is out.
Huh, I quit Rift, because I knew I would play this game instead, so why waste time with Rift, I thought. However, I hope they keep Q1 -13 as releaseperiod, so I can make up my mind as soon as possible; continue with NwNO, or go back to Rift. And I hate to admit it, but I have to join the choir of people that's sceptic to that the release will happen Q1, with regards to so little having been shown yet. Also I find it hard to buy the argument that a finished game is better than a unfinished game when talking MMOs, so waiting is good. Is a mmo ever finished? Yeah, I know that the response to that is that: "We'd rather have a delayed game then a bug-ridden one." True, but then why say Q1 unless sure about it?
Now, there are no source saying anything about a delay, it's just me jumping to conclusions based on the lack of info. so far.
So in basic, I'm probably just trying to provoke a reaction from the company to release more info. or to comment about the release.
And making up news? Ok, let's give it a shot. *ahem* Have you heard that the cities of Luskan and Waterdeep will be in the game as safe areas and quest-hubs. And a city in another dimension with a "sharp" lady ruler will also be in. (Please note that the text after the word "shot" is mumbo-jumbo, so if you thought it to be true, please re-roll your intelligence roll.)
"A rare display of intelligence, undoubtedly fleeting." - Edwin Odesseiron
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
Well remember, the end of Q1 is still 5 months away.
And even if the full game is delayed into Q2 I believe it's more than likely we'll be in beta by then, if not sooner.
Again they're not telling the Forum Mods any more than you guys on their beta release plans but I'm sure, personally and not as an employee, that we'll be playing the game in Q1 even if it's only in Beta.
Yea, at this point I'm thinking 2013 CBT. I know it's saddening to everyone, but I mean they've brought up NO info on the subject other than "somewhere between october-december". I mean, it's amazing that they've been so fortunate that other mmo's have done so badly (imo), cause I'd have left for 'em at this point. Not to say I wouldn't come back, but it'd be when the game releases, not before. I love the entire idea of this game, a few bits I'd change but all in all it's fantastic. Unfortunately, without the devs giving us more info than "soon", I'm getting bored quickly.
At this point, I come on here to talk to people or see what they're talking about. I hardly even see this as a game forum anymore, it's more of a fan-fic forum that's pretty great. I dunno if anyone else feels this way, but I hope the devs realize how lucky they are that they have some of the people they do in these forums, because I feel like I'm back at the local coffee house when I come on here now-a-days. Lets get some new stuff going guys! And I don't mean more backstory, though I LLOOOOOOVE it, I mean some real game stuff. Not the same HAMSTER we've had a while now. Anyhow, Hopefully the 11th will come quicker than I realize.
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alsarothMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well remember, the end of Q1 is still 5 months away.
And even if the full game is delayed into Q2 I believe it's more than likely we'll be in beta by then, if not sooner.
Again they're not telling the Forum Mods any more than you guys on their beta release plans but I'm sure, personally and not as an employee, that we'll be playing the game in Q1 even if it's only in Beta.
Yeah, it's still some time to go and unless the devs. state anything, we're all guessing here.
Still, would be nice with some updates.
Edit: Like Elder Scrolls online just did.
"A rare display of intelligence, undoubtedly fleeting." - Edwin Odesseiron
Comments
Let's look at the key piece that it seems like is being ignored here and actually is the flaw in the Minivan to School bus analogy. The engine. A game engine can be likened to a chassis as well as the actual engine (powertrain), There are no chassis out there that allow for moving from a minivan to a school bus, but game engines allow more flexibility, especially when your engine is used to power other MMO's.
Neverwinter is being built on the same engine as STO and CO. In fact the foundry (the forge), a key part of Neverwinter and what was in fact the selling point of Neverwinter before the delay. It was designed for Neverwinter, but introduced into STO. The games run on the same engine they have many of the same working parts. Now when the OMG monkier came out people actually started applying it to STO in retrospect.
Based on Emmert's comments in that interview and others like it Neverwinter appears to have been planned originally to be like a STO in many ways heavily instanced for starters. But with less focus on any open world elements or developer made content. Imagine taking STO removing the sector space and having all missions launch from Earth Space dock. That would be the public space Emmert refers to, and the missions (all instanced) would be the private space.
Those of us who had experienced STO's launch six month before that interview actually saw the OMG monkier as rather appropriate for STO. In fact, I personally feel that the OMG term was partly coined as a result of STO's launch. Both CO and STO met to rather poor receptions because of how small they seemed compared to other MMO's, many people don't consider either of the MMO's to this day. Emmert himself never calls the game a cooperative in that interview, he refers to the Neverwinter IP as a cooperative RPG, but he actually uses the OMG monkier to correct the interviewer's referral to the Cryptic Neverwinter game as a cooperative.
Gillrmn point about Atari is probably spot on. Atari was clearly trying to shove another IP cash-grab game out the door like they did with STO.
I'm not denying that the focus has clearly shifted with Neverwinter, what I am saying is that the work that had been done was not for a completely unrelated style of game. Again, engine here is the key. Neverwinter is using the same engine as STO and CO, that alone means that most of the work done on the previous iteration was not necessarily completely shelved or thrown out. The foundry (forge) is another thing that wasn't thrown out.
The game is going to come out when it does, but I don't take the delay or their closed lips on somethings as any sign that they've rebuilt from ground up or that the game will be delayed again.
See my post above, but they had the engine, it is the same engine they've used for their other MMO's.
Polish and accessories are what make a quality game and so delay is all about quality.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=90401&postcount=7
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=90402&postcount=8
These posts and the articles they link to are great examples of why much of the underlying structure would need re-done to turn this from a Co-Op to MMO. A lot of the problems mentioned in these articles would require different solutions for each of those two systems.
You've seen the screenshots. You've seen the foundry.
What you haven't seen is the things subject to balancing changes such as class abilities.
And whether you want to accept the truth of the matter or not, if they were to say <classes> do <abilities> with <effects> and end up revoking those claims you would be even more upset than not hearing any news at all.
When the classes are finalized we'll hear about them.
Neverwinter is being built with a modifiedseehere version of the same engine used for Cryptic's two most recent MMORPGs -- Star Trek Online and Champions Online + now intergrating simplygon
Certain manhours have not been lost certainly. Mainly those spent on things like character models and the foundry - which is what we've been shown so far btw.
But then there are things that have to be completely redone from scratch. Maps that were designed for a single co-op party simply cannot support several thousands at once. It simply cannot be done, they have to redisign them. Same with the way mobs and NPCs function. Then they have to add a lot of stuff in the game, and then rebalance the gameplay around those things. For example, making it a full MMO likely means the addition of an Auction house. that means that drop rates and drop patterns have to be altered, so as to make rare gear drops still mean something. And then they have to re-bugfix the entire thing.
I'm still pretty confident that we will have something in our hands come december or january.
Yes, but if I put a roush supercharger on my mustang engine it is still a mustang engine and the way I worked on it before remains largely the same. That's the point. The engine they used and are using is the same one they've used on MMO's in the past. This isn't a situation where they were builing Mario Kart and decided to make a Mario MMO. They were for all intents and purposes making an MMO lite and now it is being made into a full MMO.
They've got a user generated content system in the game so that we won't so quickly (or ever) run out of content, even though people can use up content fairly quickly.
Well all of us here on the forums have proved that and have used up all the content provided for us fairly quickly. What we really need is a user generated content system for news about the game, so that there'll be more content for us to discuss?
Anyone up for making up some news?
By all means go and write some stories, create some artwork, make some you-tube videos...give Aandre some competition and start up another podcost.
I'd love to see it.
This is a rough time because there really is very little to share but there's really nothing that can be done about it. Here's a suggestion, go plan out your UGC Stories in Art and Fiction so you'll have a head start when The Foundry is released.
*Makes a mental note to ask for a Campaign Sub-Forum*
Huh, I quit Rift, because I knew I would play this game instead, so why waste time with Rift, I thought. However, I hope they keep Q1 -13 as releaseperiod, so I can make up my mind as soon as possible; continue with NwNO, or go back to Rift. And I hate to admit it, but I have to join the choir of people that's sceptic to that the release will happen Q1, with regards to so little having been shown yet. Also I find it hard to buy the argument that a finished game is better than a unfinished game when talking MMOs, so waiting is good. Is a mmo ever finished? Yeah, I know that the response to that is that: "We'd rather have a delayed game then a bug-ridden one." True, but then why say Q1 unless sure about it?
Now, there are no source saying anything about a delay, it's just me jumping to conclusions based on the lack of info. so far.
So in basic, I'm probably just trying to provoke a reaction from the company to release more info. or to comment about the release.
And making up news? Ok, let's give it a shot. *ahem* Have you heard that the cities of Luskan and Waterdeep will be in the game as safe areas and quest-hubs. And a city in another dimension with a "sharp" lady ruler will also be in. (Please note that the text after the word "shot" is mumbo-jumbo, so if you thought it to be true, please re-roll your intelligence roll.)
And even if the full game is delayed into Q2 I believe it's more than likely we'll be in beta by then, if not sooner.
Again they're not telling the Forum Mods any more than you guys on their beta release plans but I'm sure, personally and not as an employee, that we'll be playing the game in Q1 even if it's only in Beta.
At this point, I come on here to talk to people or see what they're talking about. I hardly even see this as a game forum anymore, it's more of a fan-fic forum that's pretty great. I dunno if anyone else feels this way, but I hope the devs realize how lucky they are that they have some of the people they do in these forums, because I feel like I'm back at the local coffee house when I come on here now-a-days. Lets get some new stuff going guys! And I don't mean more backstory, though I LLOOOOOOVE it, I mean some real game stuff. Not the same HAMSTER we've had a while now. Anyhow, Hopefully the 11th will come quicker than I realize.
Yeah, it's still some time to go and unless the devs. state anything, we're all guessing here.
Still, would be nice with some updates.
Edit: Like Elder Scrolls online just did.