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Impressions of Neverwinter Online from the NWN1/2 community
kamaliicious
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
Mod Zebular said "go for it". http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=247921&postcount=76
Thread for the Neverwinter Nights community to give their impression of Neverwinter Online.
NWN2 forum
NWN1 forum
For reference, This is mine. You can scroll down to the comments where I confirm my NWO username if you wish.
edit: If you are/were a NWN1/2 builder, please link to your content and confirm it's you.
Thread for the Neverwinter Nights community to give their impression of Neverwinter Online.
NWN2 forum
NWN1 forum
For reference, This is mine. You can scroll down to the comments where I confirm my NWO username if you wish.
edit: If you are/were a NWN1/2 builder, please link to your content and confirm it's you.
Post edited by kamaliicious on
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Comments
Regardless of your opinions feel free to post. Feedback is welcome and our community willl do their best to answer any concerns you have about Neverwinter. Information is still somewhat limited because the game is still in Alpha but we will do our best none-the-less.
I myself used to be an award winning NWN Content Developer. If you have any worries about content limitation believe me I had (have) the same fears as you but regardless of those fears this game has shown great promise and solves many issues I felt shouldn't have existed in NWN.
There is quite a bit of information out on The Foundry (Toolset) now and while it is more limited it seems to be far more user friendly. In some other cases I feel it provides even better support.
I hope some of you can look past your fears and try NW when the Open Beta Test starts. It is free so all you have to lose is a bit of time!
Welcome again and I we can answer any questions you have!
Just a reminder to any of our users that wish to discuss NW on the NWN2 Forums, please be civil and follow all of the NWN2 Forums rules. The last thing we want to do is impose or disrupt on the NWN2 Forums.
Hey for reference, what NWN content did you author? I know forum names change a lot in online communities and I'd like to know your NWN stuff.
My comment on the next post.
I am also an MMO player. I have played Ultima Online, EQ, WoW, LotRO, Runes of Magic, Allods Online, Champions Online, STO, SWToR and most recently GW2.
As far as NWN is concerned, I've worked on many projects for single player as well as PWs. I have a HoF Single player module called the Vertex Chronicles that has at least one person who likes it, so I guess it is OK. I also have worked on area design/development for Wyvern Crown of Cormyr as well as some design stuff for the DLA (Dragon Lance Adventures) folks. I also did some writing for the NW Vault with a humor/satirical series of Dear Abby type articles called the Dear Strumpet Letters, some of which can still be found on the now crumbling Vault. There's actually 23 in total.
For NWN2, most of my time has been spent developing areas for various projects as well as prefabs for other builders. You can see the full list here. I am in the midst of a really large module development project called Jabberwocky, which is a playable version of the classic poem. I also had a small module added to the NWN2 Community Halloween Project. Careful what you drink.
All this to say, I play and build with games. Rather extensively. So when I comment, know one thing: I'm asking a question based on what I would like to see possible in a game and what my "dream" game would be from a modding and story telling point of view.
So what does the Grumpy Strumpet think of NWO?
Originally when NW was introduced it was a different game. It was a co-op RPG with a toolset. I was very excited, because it meant that a developer was making a game designed to tell stories to a group of players. When it changed to an MMO, I have to be honest and say that my heart sank, because no matter how you slice it, an MMO just CANNOT do what an offline/local LAN game can. There are balance and fairness issues that you just can't get around. What does that mean? Why does that matter? Story depth, and complexity is very much impacted. Even my simplest module storyline would be hard to reproduce in a MMO toolset environment. We have some info but not a lot so my impressions are going to be very limited.
Here is what I like:
What I'm skeptical about:
This list is just my initial impressions of what I have read, seen and heard about this game. YMMV, of course so take it with a grain of salt. After all, I'm just a simple strumpet...
The idea of the Foundry intrigues me and I'm interested to see how it plays out. Unfortunately, there are few specifics on the site. A few questions I have include:
1) What function will custom modules (is that the right word?) serve in NWO. Are they just one-off single adventures or can they be mini persistent worlds unto themselves?
2) How big can they get (number of areas or filesize)? Will they support complex stories or more simple/linear stories?
3) How do they relate to the NWO world? Are they separate entities or do they somehow fit into the mmo experience.
At the end of the day, a key benefit is that NWO will have lots of players and if there's one thing a custom creator likes, it's people interacting with his/her work.
What remains to be seen is whether the Foundry will support the ability of NWN creators to tell the stories that NWN allows us to tell.
Feel free also to introduce yourself officially speaking in the Introductions thread if you wish, and keep doing this great feedback so our developers can hone the feedback to solidity the features being mentioned! I hope this becomes a great dialog place from one developer group (PWE/Crypric) to another (NWN!)
I want to HAMSTER in Neverwinter, whenever I want, for as long as I want.
and a second post:
Without further ado.....Welcome to All the NWN/NWN2 players/ builders to the Neverwinter Online forums, please continue to post your thoughts, opinions, and hopes as well as dreams for this game, because without feedback the Dev's can't help make the game more of what we are wanting out of this game.
Faleth77
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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If I can create customized challenges that test a player's skill over luck, I'm happy enough. What would be a dream come true is customizable cutscenes and scripted boss battles where at say, 75% they spawn adds, at 50% they set fire on the ground that needs to be avoided etc.
Also, having my own persistent lobby area where people who want to play my content can chill, form parties and/or RP would be nice too. Yes, I will be the sadistic DM that will force players to have to party to even stand a chance b:angry
Anyway, NWO looks promising so far. I'd like to join the beta but I spent $60 on CO instead of $20 on TL2. Apparently that makes me $240 short on the beta access key @sadpanda
link
Conclusion: it's fine. Problems are due to human tendency to remember the randomly occurring multiple failures.
Physically rolling in PnP is less random, special precision dice do help:
Forbes
If you look at the plots, physically rolling the dice is less random than the nwn1/2 rng, even with precision dice.
I'm sure there will be complaints about the NWO rng not being "random" as well, because of the human perception factor.
I hope Cryptic doesn't pull a Blizzard and start only listening to specific sets of fans for direction >.>
There are many posts here about hoping the nwn1/2 community comes and creates content for nwo, so seeing what those communities think of nwo is relevant. It would be listening to what this community wants, which is for nwn1/2 content creators to come to nwo.
Just in case there is a misunderstanding.
However, it is a good idea to have a thread like this seeing the open tradition with which actual competitive competition has been discussed ("DDO") and has not been closed by stromshade. The devs on these forums are quite nice and open about their development which I quite like.
EDIT: though @aeternys123 is also expressing his opinion like all others and is free to do so.
EDIT2: source quote below.
EDIT3: So mods are basically the most level-headed people in our community who have volunteered for this game out of goodness of their hearts.
Looking at the link you provided the OP's list of numbers illustrates exactly the problem I was having. I plotted the first 400 numbers on a graph and it looks like this:
http://imageshack.us/a/img832/9150/rngs.jpg
What I noticed was that spikes are a lot more common in the NWN RNG. When it hits a high number it almost invariably drops down steeply. In practical situations, this is most noticeable in 1 attack per round combat, or low levels, where very often if you start combat with a high roll, you will consistently roll high throughout the fight while your target takes the alternating low roll, and vice versa.
Easy way to test this, make a mod with 2 Lv2 full plate/tower shield Fighter NPCs hostile to each other and watch them go at it. Two Full Plate/Tower Shield Fighters with 16 Strength and WF: Longsword, as per the toolset wizard, will have 6AB and 22AC, or a 20% chance to hit each other. However, after the first fighter lands a hit, there is a less than 20% chance for the second fighter to land a hit in the next successive attack. Conversely, there is a larger than 20% chance for the first fighter to score a successive hit in the next round.
Now compare that to a more random distribution, like the one here: http://alexander-stoyan.blogspot.sg/2012/07/getting-pseudo-random-numbers-at.html
Note that the distribution is harder to predict. There are still skinny spikes like the ones generated by NWN's RNG, but there is also a chance to get a series of numbers within a similar range - high or low, characterized by fatter spikes or valleys with forks in them.
That aside, I don't think RNG has much of a place in a twich action combat system in the first place, and judging by the trailer, Cryptic seems to be using denominations much larger than d20, at least for damage numbers, and I think that's a good thing because the abstractions made in turn-based PnP don't need to be made in a real-time game.
First: "Loyalty" can be a great thing, but we don't even HAVE a game yet! It hasnt been played by 99.9999% of the posters on this forum.
The only NWN community members that will read your negative comments are ones interested in playing, probably for the exact same reasons you do! These are the ones actually OPEN to playing and enjoying our game. They have EVERY RIGHT to be heard as much as we are being heard. After all, they are as much a part of the NWO community as we are at this point.
Second: Many long time NWO forum posters have played NWN.
I realize there will always be some that must say "our game is better than your game". "Who cares what you think, its our game" These sound downright silly when you break it down...
As ONE community, its clear what the common denominator is to many in the NWN and NWO communities, Dungeons and Dragons.
We need to think of ourselves as ONE community, as that will be the single most important thing we can do to grow our community.
just my 2 coppers.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
I do think that overall we have to accept (in any community) that this game will not appeal to some players. There is a basic game design philosophy that Cryptic is taking, it appears to be similar to that of STO and CO, even if the details end up being different. They want the game to be accessible, user friendly and "fun". We all need to accept these principles because they are not going to change, I'm sure aspect of the game will change in beta and after launch (looks at STO and CO), but the fundamentals of the game will not change, not at this point in the design process.
This game will appeal to some and it won't appeal to others, regardless of what other DnD communities we might belong to. It will not be NWN 3 and it was never billed as being such, that's one fundamental we need to accept. But in saying that we also acknowledge that it will be it's own game, and that's the exciting part it's something new another way to experience DnD, I might end up hating it as much as I did Ebberon, or I might love it, but the fear of not liking something because it is different is no reason to not try something.
i?m a NWN custom content creator since 2005 or 06? not sure anymore... anyway. First thing is this game is totally different to what I have been working with. I use 3dsmax and other tools to develope content for nwn and this whole process is about 85% of what i?m actually doing. I just love and need my creative freedom (that nwn gave me all these years) and Neverwinter has to provide me some of this freedom to satisfy my passion for "bringing ideas into view".
When you work so long with a game you cant just leave that behind and start something new you dont even know from the inside a little bit so I?ll see what it?s editor has to offer. And there is nothing like nostalgic here because no one who?s active in our community has abandoned his work...makes sense?!
So dont know, i will give the game itself a try for sure if the price is correct and then, who knows. Well, i thought i would write more...
my name there is NWN_babayaga
greetings from the Order of the NWN fanatics:D
I've played many a game over the years, some I liked, others not so much so. My reasons for playing were quite simple, I enjoyed the time spent in game with either my family members or the friends that I made within the game. This game will be no exception from that standpoint. I am of the opinion that the game will be enjoyable and offer me many creative outlets as well.
I, as I'm sure the rest of the forum members agree, welcome each and every person who joins these forums and look forward to what you have to offer and will read each of your posts and value your thoughts and opinions.
Welcome one and all to what we hope to be a great game and community.
My Best,
Ezra Steel
Welcome to the NWO community, NWN_babayaga!
Yes, the Foundry will be entirely different than what you are used to. It will be more limited in some ways, but more diverse in others. However, I'll bet you have the skill to take the more advanced elements of the Foundry and utilize them in such ways so that you'll be able to tell amazing stories...
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Let's get into some interesting points I personally liked while reading this
I couldn't have said it better. While I won't attempt to access any "secret information" to mention the game compared to the "gamer on the street" since my new volunteer position, I can say with confidence that this game is different than the Bioware successors. Not better, not worse, different. It's like when the RTS games emerged over seventeen years ago (and I'm a big fan of C&C BTW and they have recently released their seventeen title collection with their next C&C going beta.) Saying it was better or worse than (geez, you're making me have to look up what was released in 1995...here we go...) Ravenloft II: Stone Prophet is an argument of apples and oranges. The two systems even if they shared some similar theme or mechanic are two different game types.
As is the case with this upcoming game and the prior D&D releases.
Another big issue is the Engine that is used. Long story short, this shapes how the future of the MMO's are done. Cryptic has its own game engine and they have had some successes in producing games with it. (I'm not going to argue features of lack thereof in a game's initial MMO release but this often is the reason for criticism in a game's difficulty post launch.) This means a lot of things one becomes accustomed to is due to the strengths and limitations both of said engine. This is/was true for Bioware's engine and the Auora Toolset. Quite bluntly, I doubt it could have had a more "graphical" interface in its ease of use versus the Current Foundry's demonstration without modifying it into something that risks its integrity. Not that it's bad for that, but it literally was not built that way.
The same is true for the Foundry engine. It's primarily not done the same way as Auroa's setup, it's differently made. This means a different way of making adventures. It also is an MMORPG as people are often noting. It's not a privately hosted game anymore. This means it has to be set up to run games in said MMO as linked to it, not with its own modeling and physics and database "house rules" exceptions. Can we make changes to the appearances and place custom looking items in it? Sure. But the moment we start "altering the core rules on how things function that could change advantages," we get similar STO-like Foundry exploit issues (the original which took some time to curb and keep the game balanced without hurting authors.) Of all games, Diablo the old version taught me if you have exploits and non exploits "servers" it's not going to work when you start having network play sanctioned. The hackers will keep finding ways around it once you give an opening. Better to stop a problem before it starts then try and spend a lot of time stopping it.
And then it gets difficult to regulate all playing whether campaigns are "publicly played" or "private groups."
But in regards to "change and progress:"
While some things may be loved or hated or have some degree of indifference, expecting a game to stay the same while the world changes (socially, technically, and collectively,) is simply not going to happen.
I love my classic games. Heck, I download stuff from GoG and play it today.
But I know those games I love are not going to be made the same way, or very similar unless it's done in a tribute to the original form. A good example of this is the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition. It's awesome they retold a classic homage like the way a company redid Space Quest 2.
But a re-mastery or replica is just that. I may honor a classic car like a Cadillac from the Fifties or Mustang from the Sixties, but want to see what a modern car like a Tesla from this decade (and century and millennium) can do.
I love the old, but live in the new. And whether we like it or not, PWE and Cryptic are going with current gamer interests in appealing to a marketplace as much as its classic fan base. This means current trends for a live-action interest. If this development happened in the mid nineties, I'm sure Lens Flair could have been an expected demand. But we look at that now and roll our eyes at such a thing in this current time.
We aren't going to be a slave to what is modern, but it is going to effect decisions on how the game is developed.
So what does all this mean?
Yes this means some things are going to be "locked down" to stop exploiting, and the old scripting and downloaded mod files are not being done now. But other things that may not have been thought of taking minutes instead of hours are also done from many months of developer's work making 'routine" options now simpler" so people can build and story tell easier.
All I can hope is when people are invited in, to give it a try and understand it's a different way than NWN's is/was. And then they can review the Features that work or not based on that new setup.
Speaking of...
Funny, I was reading updated posts from earliest to most current and unknowingly responded this way (sort of) on a post about Things you want to see in NW from STO or CO. My specific reply is here. Everyone's opinion is important and should be weighted. Old and new. Action and RPGer. Let's all understand how they got their point of view whether you agree or disagree.
And finally after all that seriousness...
Yep, out of the goodness of my own heart b:chuckle
Now as mentioned I have played MMOs and even enjoyed them. NWo could potentially completely break the mold. I simply don't know that yet. So here are some negative points I have generally about OTHER MMO's. With the hopes that NWO doesn't fall into the same cookie cutter.
1: Catering to the masses- This can have many meanings, but to me it mainly means class balancing after the fact. Class A complains because class B beats them up constantly, and can't solo things like class C. So Class A gets a buff. Class B and C are now furious and whinge on the forums about not being as powerful as A. So class B and C are now entitled to a buff, but with a minor nerf to class A. Class A is now slightly miffed, but class D is furious because they are being ignored. So class D gets a buff, making them more powerful. Class A, B, and C are now furious because Class D is the most powerful. I could go on with this all day but you get the gist... Changing a class after the fact is like apologizing for not balancing things the first time. I don't feel like this type of coddling has any place in a D&D setting. Mages are suppose to have god like powers at later levels, while starting out weak, and needing fighters to stand behind. Fighters start out strong and begin to taper off at some point. If NWO wants things to be balanced, I got no beef with that but... get it RIGHT the first time. You have a vision for what classes should be, stick with that vision and don't apologize for it later. WoW is a horrible offender of this.
2: Fast leveling- This might even fall under #1, as it caters to the ADD populace. I'm a gamer. I like to play and feel like I'm working toward something. I want to see a max level character and be impressed by that. It's not very impressive if I'm max level 3 weeks of casual play after buying the game. "But nobody likes to grind/farm." See catering to the masses. I want the time sinks. Especially if it's fun. I want to be playing this for a long time. GW2 is a horrible offender of this, where as I liked more the EQ style of leveling.
3: Mudflation- This was an old EQ term, meaning as soon as some new content or expansion comes out, it renders the previous stuff obsolete.
4: Customization and custom content- This is non existent in other MMO's and I'm really excited to see the foundry in action. Being a dabbling content builder, this is what I look forward to the most about NWO. Even if it doesn't live up to NWN's customization and freedom, still at least it is offering something new and exciting to MMO's.
That's about all I can think of for now. If I come up with some more I'll check back later.
Hey, welcome to the NWO forum, wkbuilder! Looking forward to what you can do with the Foundry editor!
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Very well thought out and some concerns I share as well!
And thank you to all the other players who have come from the NWN Forums to post their concerns. I have truly enjoyed reading all the opinions and I'm glad many of you are open minded to the idea of a NW MMO even if you don't have high hopes.
That's more than some other threads Kam has posted displayed.
These are the major things I've been seeing come up again and again.
1 - Content Rebalancing
2 - Power Creep (wkbuilder called it mudflation)
3 - Customization limitations
I hope you all do, at the very least, give NW its chance. It won't be NWN and really won't be extremely similar in anything except having the D&D Spirit.
But Cryptic is putting a lot of work into the game and it just keeps looking better and better. I will miss the days of programming NWN but I'm really looking forward to logging into a world filled with players and custom content without fear of incompatibility issues.
And once the smoke clears and the dust settles I have high hopes for what Cryptic will do to support the community.
I don't have a strong impression of the NW MMO, as I've been following it generally, but not closely.
I do kind of wonder how big the world will be. While custom stuff is fantastic, I am curious how the "main" game will be. I'm also wondering, like a lot of people here, how the devs will find the balance between the D&D 20-level standard, and the general mmo practice of taking people up to level 100+ or whatever.
I'm curious as to how much I, as the generic player, can do with my character. Not just in terms of equipment and so on, but all the things that the NWN PWs have worked on for ages - player housing, mounts, etc. Can my wizard save his gold for a tower? Can my fighter buy himself a house (or even a tavern?) Can my cleric build a little shrine (or at least decorate an apartment to look like one?) These are things that the NWN engine doesn't do very well, but that a good PW can make happen, through human-and-human interaction with the players.
What I've read about the foundry generally sounds promising. I tried the EQ2 dungeon editor, and found it to be a disappointment. You're stuck with pre-made maps and limited content. There doesn't seem to be much room for plot - just stick the monsters and a few decorations in different places. The foundry sounds like it's a lot more complicated (npc conversations and everything) and that's great. However, there are still a lot of things that are unknown about it and its capabilities. In the end, I imagine it will look great, but I can't imagine it having the same storytelling capabilities of NWN 1 or 2. Some of the best modules are the ones that do something starkly different, like eliminate all monster xp and force you to get xp from completing objectives, introduce new subsystems via scripting, etc. I totally understand why cryptic can't do this (game balance would be instantly over after the "100,000 xp for pushing the button" dungeon was released from the foundry), but it is a limitation that hits the creative, responsible builders as well.
All in all, I'll definitely give NW a shot when it comes out. It looks quite pretty, and I'm hoping the gameplay will be excellent. I can't wait to get my hands on the foundry, and build some areas.
NW and surrounding areas(basically Neverwinter 4e pnp book) which may include more areas with time. That covers really really lot of area. And that is for official content only.
Custom content - you can only imagine.
While custom stuff is fantastic, I am curious how the "main" game will be.
The game was co-op so it was intended to have a quality single player game like content. That content storyline has not been abandoned. So you can be happy about that
I'm also wondering, like a lot of people here, how the devs will find the balance between the D&D 20-level standard, and the general mmo practice of taking people up to level 100+ or whatever.
There is a multiplier of 3x to levels as pnp players play about one-third times less hours per week than an MMO player. Game has abandoned turn based system and first truely active-time MMO. They have changed the rules of pnp here and there to accommodate that in close consultation with WotC.
I'm curious as to how much I, as the generic player, can do with my character.
Not much info on that
player housing(no info), mounts(Yes), etc.
Can my wizard save his gold for a tower?
The pesistant world foundry is in wishlist of devs but don't expect it anywhere soon. consider this an MMO and not a private server based game so it would be very very different than NWN.
What I've read about the foundry generally sounds promising.
I can't say a lot on this, but if you approach it with an open mind, you will be happy. Even if many things in MMO are not possible, as STO foundry makers have shown, many things can be replaced with many other things. Keep an ear out and more info on it will be revealed soon.
I have worked with both of these kind of softwares, and I think you can understand that if mesh deformation is included it would be a too resource consuming to test each and every map for bugs and quality(especially since the game follows collisions with dodge/jump mechanics). Cryptic uses another method - one like lego. Build you map using "Blocks" of thousand of objects. You can see foundry tutorials and videos for that. Many beautiful maps which are very different from each other are possible using that.
Also no custom content - position that has been maintained by cryptic from day 1.
Second thing is that this kind of approach (cryptic's foundry) is more user friendly with less learning curve. They want diverse authors coming in with lesser barriers to their creativity.
Though imo, balancing should be better than 3.5e in 4e due to all getting similar number of powers and defined roles.
One thing, cryptic does have experience with foundry with STO. It is a success story being extended to NW. D&D being more "foundrish" is stated to have much more features added to already existing foundry style of STO.
Secondly, on the same point "Even if it doesn't live up to NWN's customization and freedom, still at least it is offering something new and exciting to MMO's." I believe that it will be incomparable to NWN due to different environments of both games. It will just be different.