Well since this will be a MMO would like to see a summoner/tamer class added would bring in more players and is an interesting class or classes to play. Adding a skill or such to the Ranger would work as well allow the class to be able to tame and use a pet to fight with. Not sure if they will have the dark races as playable but a necro who summins forth minions that fight for him/her would be cool. Of course if they do add a Druid giving him/her the ablility to bring forth helpers would also be a nice touch. I aggre a craftinging system that would be useful for the player as well as others would be good. Housing would be useful to keep trophy's and such plus maybe a way to have your friends over to raise a tanker or two in fond memory of past adventures.
Well since this will be a MMO would like to see a summoner/tamer class added would bring in more players and is an interesting class or classes to play. Adding a skill or such to the Ranger would work as well allow the class to be able to tame and use a pet to fight with. Not sure if they will have the dark races as playable but a necro who summins forth minions that fight for him/her would be cool. Of course if they do add a Druid giving him/her the ablility to bring forth helpers would also be a nice touch. I aggre a craftinging system that would be useful for the player as well as others would be good. Housing would be useful to keep trophy's and such plus maybe a way to have your friends over to raise a tanker or two in fond memory of past adventures.
There are two themes in D&D that do this: Animal Master and Fey Beast Tamer.
That is, in addition to any classes (such as ranger or druid for example) that give you an animal buddy when starting or the ability to control an animal from the wild in an encounter (temporarily through a power.)
A true Necromancer would make my heart sing, especialy if we can dual class. Mix Necromancer w/a Cleric & you have my long-lived & much feared XiliX Lifebain
A wall of undead nasties between me & those mobs that like to get all touchie-feelie.
Ghouls, vampires & liches... oh my! :eek:
My biggest hope for Neverwinter is not only that you all will enjoy it as much as I have in our playtests here, but rather that our community here will continue to grow, and thrive.
I hope to have an MMO community based around Neverwinter that will be the envy of Community Managers everywhere. A group of individuals who not only respect one another, and each others opinions, but also one that offers constructive criticism, and feedback to our developers, and other members of the community, rather than cheap one liners meant for a quick laugh.
It's a dream that only you guys can help me bring about. But so far, I think we're doing a pretty good job.
Thanks,
Stormshade
*DISCLAIMER* I AM NOT BUSTING STORMSHADES BALLS
My hope is to have a staff (Community Managers, Development, Q.A., etc....) that cares about this game as much about the game as the community does. A team that not only respects the game but also the player who play. A team that not only accepts constructive criticism and feedback from its players but also looks at any upgrades/changes to the game and bases that off the feedback of the community and attempts to verify if this is "what the players wanted" or just "what we think the players want".
Too many times a great community is lead to slaughter by a less than motovated staff just as a great staff can be run aground due to a horrid community. A community can provide all the feedback and constructive critisicism in the world but if the staff is too proud, stubborn, or worse lazy to act upon it then the community is wasted. This is a two way street and my hope is that the community can be truely awesome in regards to what Stormshade but that also the game staff can apply what we give them and not just give the community some good old lipservice.
My greatest hope is that with Neverwinter a company finally learns that communication is the most important commodity you have and it should not all be held like the last ration beans in a hooverville. Your community is smarter than most give them credit for and is willing to accept a lot of errors if the information and communication is there. For example is the higher ups put a strangle hold on the march/april info just say "Hey guys, sorry to disappoint but there will not be any new info as promised. The decision was made above my head that it should be withheld until <insert time frame here>/indefinatly. Im just as bummed about this as you are since I was really looking forward to releasing it."
My biggest hope for Neverwinter is not only that you all will enjoy it as much as I have in our playtests here, but rather that our community here will continue to grow, and thrive.
I hope to have an MMO community based around Neverwinter that will be the envy of Community Managers everywhere. A group of individuals who not only respect one another, and each others opinions, but also one that offers constructive criticism, and feedback to our developers, and other members of the community, rather than cheap one liners meant for a quick laugh.
It's a dream that only you guys can help me bring about. But so far, I think we're doing a pretty good job.
Thanks,
Stormshade
This is a good salvo, but you, I, and most "early birds" here know that the community is not going to be 100% as you wish. Regardless how good or how bad the dev team is, there will be a minority showing their arses and nothing more. I have no doubt that once entrenched, we will have one of the best gaming communities around. The NWN and DDO communities have been too dedicated for too long to mess this up. On the contrary ...
Its the dev team that's holding the ball now... and corporate brass needs to get two dates correct.
#1 March/April announcement needs to have concrete data for when the game will be released, and even better an itemized proposed timeline from that day forward when beta begins, launch date, etc.
#2 The second date that needs to be solid is the launch date of the live product.
Commitment and Communication.
There can be no more delays, no more reasons for delays as I see it. Get it to the beta testers asap, then and only then will this community blossom. Promotion alone wont do it... promotion with an authentic timeline is the only way to go that will make everyone involved happy.
I hope to see the announcement come BY THE END OF THIS MONTH.
DEV TEAM: YOU NEED TO SHOW THE COMMUNITY YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS GAME.
PS: This is not a knock towards you Stormshade, you are clearly demonstrating that you "get it." This was meant as a wakeup call for all those around and above you that we havent "met" yet.
#1 March/April announcement needs to have concrete data for when the game will be released, and even better an itemized proposed timeline from that day forward when beta begins, launch date, etc.
#2 The second date that needs to be solid is the launch date of the live product.
There can be no more delays, no more reasons for delays as I see it. Get it to the beta testers asap, then and only then will this community blossom. Promotion alone wont do it... promotion with an authentic timeline is the only way to go that will make everyone involved happy.
I hope to see the announcement come BY THE END OF THIS MONTH.
Giving a Concrete, set date this early could possibly be the worst thing one could do. Let's say they give a date, everyone cheers, things get hyped up. But then something catastrophic happens- an act of the gods causes the game release to be pushed back. Some people may be understanding, but many will rage and yell "YOU LIED TO US!" The community's faith in the game team wanes, and morale plummets.
I also respectfully disagree with "Get[ting] it to the beta testers asap."
Pushing an unfinished game to beta would probably kill the game, rather than cause the community to "blossom." I would rather wait longer for a more polished game than get a rough game pushed too early. There are more steps between development and Beta.
Instead, I hope the info from March/April includes maybe a video tour of a completed area, or maybe some info about gameplay? Hell, even a look at the character creation would be neat. Just a taste to whet the appetites of those of us who are already wicked excited for this game.
I truely hope that Stormshade and Jendrak get there wish.
A word of warning no knee jerk changes from a vocal minority. Make a poll for the whole community in game to decide. One logs in and there is a poll about a change see if the majority of the community wishes the change.
One thing i have learned is you can't please everyone. I truely hope Neverwinter Online pleases me
I do hope that rogues can pick locks, disable traps (and traps are dangerous) climb walls, backstab etc etc.
Giving a Concrete, set date this early could possibly be the worst thing one could do. Let's say they give a date, everyone cheers, things get hyped up. But then something catastrophic happens- an act of the gods causes the game release to be pushed back. Some people may be understanding, but many will rage and yell "YOU LIED TO US!" The community's faith in the game team wanes, and morale plummets.
I also respectfully disagree with "Get[ting] it to the beta testers asap."
Pushing an unfinished game to beta would probably kill the game, rather than cause the community to "blossom." I would rather wait longer for a more polished game than get a rough game pushed too early. There are more steps between development and Beta.
Instead, I hope the info from March/April includes maybe a video tour of a completed area, or maybe some info about gameplay? Hell, even a look at the character creation would be neat. Just a taste to whet the appetites of those of us who are already wicked excited for this game.
I disagree, and here's why. There's been so many broken promises already, and the hype and community is almost nulled and voided. Look at this place, all thats left is a bit more than a few hopefuls. The volume on this site and communication so far is downright pitiful. And its not Storm's fault. He's doing all he can do.
Last thing Cryptic should do is to come out with a foggy "Who knows" answer. Anything like it and I bank on it that you can divide the few of us into thirds and kiss two thirds of us goodbye.
They need to do better than that, and soon.
The solution, at least from my viewpoint, is to include a hard timeline of events in their upcoming announcement. On this date we start our promotion engine. On this date we start our beta. On this date.... etc. As long as all goes well, we should be able to go live by _______.
A delay of a few months will be no problem for most because it can be sold as "quality assurance" that the final product will rock. They also would have kept us in the loop to the point that WE KNOW there's a product, and its this far along.
However just promising "quality assurance" without a timeline, without an explanation on the state of the game now, and how far along they think they are, is a recipe for failure.
Any announcement, without a majority of these details, will come off to many as "Cryptic isn't committed to this game". They've already stated a "soft release date" in Q4 of 2012. They have to get moving.. and they should communicate fully, and prove they are sticking as close to the deadlines they set so they will look ready, and be ready, to develop this game into the next decade.
Last thing Cryptic should do is to come out with a foggy "Who knows" answer. Anything like it and I bank on it that you can divide the few of us into thirds and kiss two thirds of us goodbye.
The solution, at least from my viewpoint, is to include a hard timeline of events in their upcoming announcement. On this date we start our promotion engine. On this date we start our beta. On this date.... etc. As long as all goes well, we should be able to go live by _______.
Again, putting hard dates out before things are ready is a terrible idea. Look at how many times SWtOR was pushed back? Things happen. Making a promise they may not be able to keep is a terrible way to build confidence in the community.
A delay of a few months will be no problem for most because it can be sold as "quality assurance" that the final product will rock. They also would have kept us in the loop to the point that WE KNOW there's a product, and its this far along.
However just promising "quality assurance" without a timeline, without an explanation on the state of the game now, and how far along they think they are, is a recipe for failure.
Again, the game is still a looong ways away. We might be able to ask for some Dev Diary type things, but hard dates? Not a chance.
Any announcement, without a majority of these details, will come off to many as "Cryptic isn't committed to this game". They've already stated a "soft release date" in Q4 of 2012. They have to get moving.. and they should communicate fully
I don't see why any gaming company should have to divulge every single step they're going through on the path to release. An estimated release date is good enough, if they can stick to it. If it were September and they hadn't released any info, then maybe there would be reason to be a bit concerned. But until then, I think things are still in such an early stage that hard dates are not possible, and there is nothing they CAN communicate.
and prove they are sticking as close to the deadlines they set so they will look ready, and be ready, to develop this game into the next decade.
In a perfect universe, people could put out deadlines and stick to them 100% of the time. In the real world, that just is not possible. Putting out a roadmap like that to the public could seriously damage the faith of the community because if ANYTHING happens to push things back, people will be upset.
Pushing a game too hard, too early will kill it and I am far to excited about this game to want it pushed before it's ready.
Pushing a game too hard, too early will kill it and I am far to excited about this game to want it pushed before it's ready.
Its perfectly ok to have different viewpoints on how Cryptic should proceed. You aren't looking for hard promises, but a good game. I am looking for a timeline (starting with hard dates for promotion and getting to beta release, then switching to soft dates to allow for bug fixes/quality control etc till release.) In essence, keeping us in the loop, much more often than they are doing now, with more concrete details.
"NWN 3" has been a boatload of broken promises, including changes to its very name, genre and dev team. The shiny inner-lining to me is, I feel Cryptic has the talent to make a helluva game and just like you, I'm looking for a great game.
As for specific examples there are many documented ones, but I'll quote a single article:
The Escapist - 6 October 2011 1:49 pm:
A year ago, Cryptic's Jack Emmert described Neverwinter as "a co-op Dragon Age with a touch of Oblivion." But while instanced dungeons, social hubs and other MMO-like features were on the menu, he made a point of noting that it would not in fact be an MMO. "I want people going in knowing that we're doing things differently to an MMO," he said.
But the situation got a little sticky back in May of this year when Atari offloaded Cryptic and Neverwinter to Chinese MMO company Perfect World. A few months later, the game was delayed, as Perfect World said it wanted to make the game "a more immersive experience."
All in all, I don't think our desires for Neverwinter are very far apart at all, and hopefully the next big announcement brings us closer on the details
In software development, it's notoriously difficult to accurately predict when tasks will be finished. In general, to figure out how long a task takes to do, the most reliable way is to see how long it took to do the same task in the past. For example, if a real estate developer is building a neighborhood of identical houses, and they observer that it takes their team 3 months per house, they can look at the number of remaining houses left, multiply by 3 months per house, and get a good estimated completion date for the neighborhood.
The problem is that in software development, if the work is being done efficiently, each task only has to be completed once and the results of that task can be reused infinitely. As a result, each task is unique, and can involve very different challenges. Because each task is effectively "uncharted territory", any predictions are made without the benefit of the experience of having completed those specific tasks and without the knowledge of what unexpected challenges or hurdles need to be dealt with. So, to expect that a software team can accurately lay out a timeline of goals and have them reliably met is wishful thinking, at best.
As a result, a business is left with 2 choices: choose a fixed release date, and ship on that date regardless of the state of the product, or choose a certain level of quality for the product at release and release whenever the product reaches that level of quality. I, for one, prefer and recommend the latter approach because when customers are given incomplete products, it's very frustrating that those products don't behave as expected or desired.
...a business is left with 2 choices: choose a fixed release date, and ship on that date regardless of the state of the product, or choose a certain level of quality for the product at release and release whenever the product reaches that level of quality. I, for one, prefer and recommend the latter approach because when customers are given incomplete products, it's very frustrating that those products don't behave as expected or desired.
Thats mostly true but you have left out how far along they are, and how much work is still left to do. That makes a big difference. They should be able to state if and when they plan to release a beta. Unless of course its simply too early in the process. Id hate to see a short-lived beta.
Considering the content will be free, and only consumables/vanity items will bare cost, they can have quite a long beta. Of course I agree with you that they shouldnt "release it" until its "ready". Quality is the highest priority.
However communication now and during the beta cycle can really solidify quality assurance and instill confidence in the gaming community.
In other words the release date should be soft dated, but good developer practices and procedures will ensure a better game sooner (through successful coding, testing and communication), and a game that will last longer, and be much more successful. That's the Neverwinter Im looking forward to playing.
If I spend another dime on games like Rift and star wars that use almost everything WoW has done and then add to it or slightly change it Ill shoot myself.
Second
This is D&D, give it some of what made the pen and paper so much fun, like multiple ways to do some fights or spells and abilities that are just for fun, not that are either a buff damage heal etc, but are just there to have some fun with.
And third
Its The Forgotten Realms, how bout some famous NPCs like Drizzt, and Elminster
But the situation got a little sticky back in May of this year when Atari offloaded Cryptic and Neverwinter to Chinese MMO company Perfect World. A few months later, the game was delayed, as Perfect World said it wanted to make the game "a more immersive experience."
So, the change because they were acquired by a different company=broken promise? That doesn't follow. Initially I'm sure the plan was to put out a game that wasn't an mmo, but when they were acquired by a different company who was producing the game, changes had to be made. That is hardly a legitimate reason to be disappointed in the team.
I don't think you quite understand how game production works. If the game isn't coming out til q4, beta won't come around until close to release. Many games have a Closed beta (invite only) and an Open Beta (pretty well anyone who wants in). But beta is not the first testing, hence the name BETA rather than ALPHA. I doubt the game- which is still around 7-9 months out, btw- is even in a legit Alpha, let alone any kind of Beta closed or otherwise. So a time line is, as nekoatl pointed out, wishful thinking.
Plus, what (other than when you can start playing) does knowing the release date do? Considering that a hard date is probably not even possible, more useful information that would more accurately show how far along they are would be screenshots, gameplay videos, or even more concept art. A timeline is just dates. Pics+vids are things we can drool over.
So, the change because they were acquired by a different company=broken promise? That doesn't follow. Initially I'm sure the plan was to put out a game that wasn't an mmo, but when they were acquired by a different company who was producing the game, changes had to be made. That is hardly a legitimate reason to be disappointed in the team.
I don't think you quite understand how game production works. If the game isn't coming out til q4, beta won't come around until close to release. Many games have a Closed beta (invite only) and an Open Beta (pretty well anyone who wants in). But beta is not the first testing, hence the name BETA rather than ALPHA. I doubt the game- which is still around 7-9 months out, btw- is even in a legit Alpha, let alone any kind of Beta closed or otherwise. So a time line is, as nekoatl pointed out, wishful thinking.
Plus, what (other than when you can start playing) does knowing the release date do? Considering that a hard date is probably not even possible, more useful information that would more accurately show how far along they are would be screenshots, gameplay videos, or even more concept art. A timeline is just dates. Pics+vids are things we can drool over.
I've done betas and seen alphas and know (ironically) the best thing to do is not say anything and wait for release on their proposed schedule.
Saying another company bought the game means a broken promise for release is a bit presumptuous, and we'll need something more than one "Escapist." Vin is right.
Well, i would like to see charakters in this game which look armored when they're going to join a fight.
As a roleplayer i absolutly hate those *****y asian games where all female armor looks like personally sponsored from Mr.Pimp. It totally kills the athmosphere!
As far as I've seen videos and screens of neverwinter the armor will look like i hoped for, THANKS FOR THAT! And please don't make any changes!!!
I've done betas and seen alphas and know (ironically) the best thing to do is not say anything and wait for release on their proposed schedule.
Saying another company bought the game means a broken promise for release is a bit presumptuous, and we'll need something more than one "Escapist." Vin is right.
That is good thinking for many games, such as rpgs.. but its a death sentence for MMOs. There is much more communication necessary for a well run MMO, as regularly scheduled content will require much additional thought from the dev team, which in tandem will result in much banter on these forums from this player base.
This is maybe the first deviation in thought Ive seen since I've been here in relation to how MMOs and RPGs dev teams need to operate, and I think there may be issues going forward in the same vein in the community. Neverwinters dev team will need to be much more open and much more interactive with this community than was ever necessary for NWN 1 or 2.
I know full well how games development works, I've seen many and played more then most. I've been a gamer since the early 1980s.
I dont totally disagree with ya Truth & Vin, I just feel both of ya'll are a bit off track when you discuss this subject. Here's my thoughts...
1. Atari is the impetus behind my "broken promise" comment. Atari has a long history of leaving games in the dust, not promoting them properly, and stifling growth and profit. Just look up "Atari lawsuit" and give yourself a day or so to read the briefings. Having Atari out of the picture is the best thing that's happened to Neverwinter. As far as Neverwinter being an MMO, I'm slightly disappointed, yet still very excited. Its still a broken promise to the playerbase, and many in this forum in fact left permanently because of it.
2. Beta for this game shouldn't start too close to release. I was suggesting it start much sooner... so that we can try to 'break the game'. We need time to test the game mechanics, make suggestions, and help Cryptic make Neverwinter a much better game. Much more testing is necessary in an MMO such as Neverwinter.
3. MMOs take years to produce... however this game was pretty far along before the corporate suits switched it to an MMO, so its anyone's guess how far along they are to completion. Saying it isnt alpha yet is nothing more than a common mans guess.
These are just 3 reasons why we need more information, and why I'd like to see a timeline, or schedule, of what's to come. I have no problem with soft dates, as long as the final product goes live in or awfully close to Q4 2012.
I am in full agreement with Truth and Vin that quality is paramount and should override any decision to stick with a hard release date. I'd just like to see more commitment from Perfect World, and proof that they won't be just another Atari.
Where was the word "promise" used?
There was noting to break. The original company people anticipated a 2011 4Q co-op release and then it was bought by PWE. PWE asked for a conversion to MMO options thus delaying the game up to a year.
Nothing about promises; the only word ever used in any regularity was "soon," when it came to posting updates.
And you can't demand immediate releases then say "Quality Assurance," if there are delays after claiming "broken promises." That method looks like lying even if it isn't. Nobody will believe the details because a "solid date" was mapped. This isn't just affecting customers but investors and shareholders.
And finally we get into proprietary/NDA issues where things just...can't be released without breaching contracts and risking the whole project.
And if the US and Iraq have taught us nothing else, you do not broadcast a hard timetable of milestones when you do not have guarantees what the outcome will be yet. It will be done when it is done and we should expect an estimate of developmental goals based on work-flow, nothing more.
I would respectfully ask you Andre not to demand further on release times unless you can back up your requests with developmental experience shaping this (and I can't remember the last time anybody made a game like this and had its play theme completely redesigned, DDO included.)
Yeah I've even done development as an employee and done Alpha/Beta testing as a player (not this company but in general,) and I am wise enough to say "I don't know how long this will actually take unless I get more information on their project timeline."
I disagree, and here's why. There's been so many broken promises already, and the hype and community is almost nulled and voided. Look at this place, all thats left is a bit more than a few hopefuls. The volume on this site and communication so far is downright pitiful. And its not Storm's fault. He's doing all he can do.
Last thing Cryptic should do is to come out with a foggy "Who knows" answer. Anything like it and I bank on it that you can divide the few of us into thirds and kiss two thirds of us goodbye.
They need to do better than that, and soon.
The solution, at least from my viewpoint, is to include a hard timeline of events in their upcoming announcement. On this date we start our promotion engine. On this date we start our beta. On this date.... etc. As long as all goes well, we should be able to go live by _______.
A delay of a few months will be no problem for most because it can be sold as "quality assurance" that the final product will rock. They also would have kept us in the loop to the point that WE KNOW there's a product, and its this far along.
However just promising "quality assurance" without a timeline, without an explanation on the state of the game now, and how far along they think they are, is a recipe for failure.
Any announcement, without a majority of these details, will come off to many as "Cryptic isn't committed to this game". They've already stated a "soft release date" in Q4 of 2012. They have to get moving.. and they should communicate fully, and prove they are sticking as close to the deadlines they set so they will look ready, and be ready, to develop this game into the next decade.
I don't know how long this will actually take unless I get more information on their project timeline.
Thank you for (albeit a bit sarcastically) repeating EXACTLY what I said. You are just not really comprehending what I've been asking for, and what has already been projected by the dev team. The dev team has already publically announced they are shooting for the game's completion by Q4 2012.
I was simply looking for a road map or timeline, and an extended beta, so that we can help make their plan a reality. A one or two month beta will not be enough for this game.
The hard dates that I'm looking for are in the beginning of the timeline... But I'd like to know much more than dates. I'd like to know how far along they are, and naturally see some graphics/videos/ etc and get into actual discussion of what the game is planned to ship with initially. The release date naturally cant be given assuringly, but a timeline or schedule of what is supposed to happen when, will make us all aware if they are on target for release or not.
By-the-by, I have worked in many phases for Hewlett Packard and other well known, and not-so-well-known computer companies in aspects ranging from game/computer/graphic design to sales to management. Yet sadly none of our experience matters in what I'm about to say..
If there's one thing Ive learned about MMO game design is the end users, the players have to play test the game moreso than ever before. And we are going to need time to find as many bugs, exploits and the many underlying issues that will certainly arise only when the largest QA pool (us) gets our hands on it. The day that the developer(s) were in charge of all the testing is long gone (traditional/waterfall development model). And that's even multiplied infinitely more where MMO's are concerned (a much more modern agile /extreme development/testing model will have to be used).
You are trying to show you have an understanding of game design, while putting others down, yet your attitude sadly is speaking louder and clouding not only your reading comprehension but your actual message, which is startlingly similar to what I've been saying.
I'm really done going back and forth about it. Let's wait until their announcement in a few weeks (hopefully) and see if we'll be able to shake hands and say we are satisfied, comfortable and excited about the pending release of Neverwinter.
My biggest hope for Neverwinter is not only that you all will enjoy it as much as I have in our playtests here, but rather that our community here will continue to grow, and thrive.
I hope to have an MMO community based around Neverwinter that will be the envy of Community Managers everywhere. A group of individuals who not only respect one another, and each others opinions, but also one that offers constructive criticism, and feedback to our developers, and other members of the community, rather than cheap one liners meant for a quick laugh.
It's a dream that only you guys can help me bring about. But so far, I think we're doing a pretty good job.
Thanks,
Stormshade
As mentioned elsewhere the key will be to talk with your players on a regular basis. At the end of the day you will be the GM, at least in the pve arena. From my days in good old pen and paper D&D the one thing I remember was it was all about making the players feel as if they had achieved something. You will get a forum populated by whiners and complainers, fanboi's and flamers. If you can pick your way through them all and keep an eye on what your real players want, the ones that will stick it out through thick and thin, then all will be well. The problem I think is many devs get jaded with the barrage of complaints and requests.
My apologies if it appeared if I was putting others down as I read you were looking to put the company down, when it seems we were actually in agreement in what needs to be looked into. The game needs to be thoroughly tested for the redesigns and the company should post timely updates on what it plans.
Beyond that, it can't be said what's happening without more released info which we all look forward to.
Again, my apologies if it seemed I was trying to put anybody down which was not my intention or goal.
Thank you for (albeit a bit sarcastically) repeating EXACTLY what I said. You are just not really comprehending what I've been asking for, and what has already been projected by the dev team. The dev team has already publically announced they are shooting for the game's completion by Q4 2012.
I was simply looking for a road map or timeline, and an extended beta, so that we can help make their plan a reality. A one or two month beta will not be enough for this game.
The hard dates that I'm looking for are in the beginning of the timeline... But I'd like to know much more than dates. I'd like to know how far along they are, and naturally see some graphics/videos/ etc and get into actual discussion of what the game is planned to ship with initially. The release date naturally cant be given assuringly, but a timeline or schedule of what is supposed to happen when, will make us all aware if they are on target for release or not.
By-the-by, I have worked in many phases for Hewlett Packard and other well known, and not-so-well-known computer companies in aspects ranging from game/computer/graphic design to sales to management. Yet sadly none of our experience matters in what I'm about to say..
If there's one thing Ive learned about MMO game design is the end users, the players have to play test the game moreso than ever before. And we are going to need time to find as many bugs, exploits and the many underlying issues that will certainly arise only when the largest QA pool (us) gets our hands on it. The day that the developer(s) were in charge of all the testing is long gone (traditional/waterfall development model). And that's even multiplied infinitely more where MMO's are concerned (a much more modern agile /extreme development/testing model will have to be used).
You are trying to show you have an understanding of game design, while putting others down, yet your attitude sadly is speaking louder and clouding not only your reading comprehension but your actual message, which is startlingly similar to what I've been saying.
I'm really done going back and forth about it. Let's wait until their announcement in a few weeks (hopefully) and see if we'll be able to shake hands and say we are satisfied, comfortable and excited about the pending release of Neverwinter.
... my apologies if it seemed I was trying to put anybody down which was not my intention or goal.
Not a problem at all. We are just looking forward to this game and were really saying the same things. Glad to see we worked it out
I'm really looking forward to being a valuable member of the community here, as I've been in DDO. I will praise when I feel its the right thing to do, regardless of how popular or unpopular it might be. I will give 'em hell too, if I feel they deserve it.
I must say I'm more upbeat than I was when I first came here, and I'm enjoying how the community is pulling together. Lets hope this time, its for keeps.
Well, that's what we do at Cryptic, and PWE. We make MMOs. From the beginning, we really wanted to make Neverwinter into a true MMO. However, due to development constraints imposed by Atari, we were originally making Neverwinter an Online Co-Op RPG.
Once we were purchased by PWE, we were allowed to take the extra time we needed to really make Neverwinter into a true MMO. Which we're very excited about.
We're full believers that we can deliver a tried and true D&D Experience, as well as an excellent MMO experience at the same time.
Thanks,
Stormshade
This (from the Why an MMO thread) has made my quarter! Now we know the term "MMO" means MORE content instead of RESTRICTED (co-op) content, I'm doing a Snoopy dance.
Lets say here is what I would not like to see in an MMO.
A Cross server LFD tool like WoW. Sorry but if you want this go back to WoW.
A LFR Finder Go back to WoW for this too
No Raid gear given to players who do not raid. I dont care how many dailies you finish you did not raid for the gear.
A Massive Single Player game like SWTOR is becoming more and more each patch.
Now what I do want to see.
A new way to build my Character I dont want it like DDO if you screw up you have to delete and start over. But I do want to see people not needing to do the standard cookie cutter specs.
I do want to see either 6/12 man raids, 8/16 man raids, 10/20 man raids or just strait 15 man raids.
I do want to see 10 to 15 instances for leveling that give out good xp like 20% of a level.
I do want to see a subscription where people can get the same stuff they could by piece meal from
Oo! That's an interesting notion. I don't honestly think retraining will happen as often as it does in 4E D&D, but I also agree that it needs to at least be an option.
A new way to build my Character I dont want it like DDO if you screw up you have to delete and start over. But I do want to see people not needing to do the standard cookie cutter specs.
Someone else said something to the effect of, "I don't need people yelling at me that I didn't min/max."
I've found good use for generalists in many games, multi-player or otherwise. In fact, I'd suggest that bards and clerics prove that D&D promotes jacks of all trades, as do multi-class fight/mage/thf etc, of course. And D&D is a natural source of character concepts, so if my mage has good Constitution for some reason, read my char bio, or leave it alone.
While I can see where a rogue would want as much Dex as he can get, and pile on it with Gloves of Dexterity or some such, in previous games the mental scores were only used for spell casters of the appropriate type. Maybe for talking with Intimidate or Bluff. But DDO has no speaking of any kind, so not there. I don't know how you'd put Int/Wis/Cha to use outside the combat mechanic, but it'd be a win if a way were found. I know some of the 4E classes promote cross-class mechanics. I'm not that up on 4E, but if a warrior needs to be more likeable for some reason, it sounds fine to me.
Skill training in 4e is more friendly to players who want to train in skills not normally associated with their character's class. The 3.x concepts of skill ranks and cross-class skills are gone.
Instead, each skill is tied to an ability score, and can be either trained or untrained, with training granting a +5 bonus. You get to select a few trained skills from your class list at level 1. You can opt to take a background bonus to allow you to pick 1 skill from outside your class when making these choices, or you can get a +2 background bonus to a skill instead. You also can get bonuses (usually +2) from your race, and certain feats, and some feats also grant training in specific skills.
So, practically speaking, the biggest limit is your ability scores. Aside from that, you can get respectable bonuses to any skills with any character.
Comments
There are two themes in D&D that do this: Animal Master and Fey Beast Tamer.
That is, in addition to any classes (such as ranger or druid for example) that give you an animal buddy when starting or the ability to control an animal from the wild in an encounter (temporarily through a power.)
A wall of undead nasties between me & those mobs that like to get all touchie-feelie.
Ghouls, vampires & liches... oh my! :eek:
wow am I sleepy.... that was a tad creepy lol
*DISCLAIMER* I AM NOT BUSTING STORMSHADES BALLS
My hope is to have a staff (Community Managers, Development, Q.A., etc....) that cares about this game as much about the game as the community does. A team that not only respects the game but also the player who play. A team that not only accepts constructive criticism and feedback from its players but also looks at any upgrades/changes to the game and bases that off the feedback of the community and attempts to verify if this is "what the players wanted" or just "what we think the players want".
Too many times a great community is lead to slaughter by a less than motovated staff just as a great staff can be run aground due to a horrid community. A community can provide all the feedback and constructive critisicism in the world but if the staff is too proud, stubborn, or worse lazy to act upon it then the community is wasted. This is a two way street and my hope is that the community can be truely awesome in regards to what Stormshade but that also the game staff can apply what we give them and not just give the community some good old lipservice.
My greatest hope is that with Neverwinter a company finally learns that communication is the most important commodity you have and it should not all be held like the last ration beans in a hooverville. Your community is smarter than most give them credit for and is willing to accept a lot of errors if the information and communication is there. For example is the higher ups put a strangle hold on the march/april info just say "Hey guys, sorry to disappoint but there will not be any new info as promised. The decision was made above my head that it should be withheld until <insert time frame here>/indefinatly. Im just as bummed about this as you are since I was really looking forward to releasing it."
This is a good salvo, but you, I, and most "early birds" here know that the community is not going to be 100% as you wish. Regardless how good or how bad the dev team is, there will be a minority showing their arses and nothing more. I have no doubt that once entrenched, we will have one of the best gaming communities around. The NWN and DDO communities have been too dedicated for too long to mess this up. On the contrary ...
Its the dev team that's holding the ball now... and corporate brass needs to get two dates correct.
#1 March/April announcement needs to have concrete data for when the game will be released, and even better an itemized proposed timeline from that day forward when beta begins, launch date, etc.
#2 The second date that needs to be solid is the launch date of the live product.
Commitment and Communication.
There can be no more delays, no more reasons for delays as I see it. Get it to the beta testers asap, then and only then will this community blossom. Promotion alone wont do it... promotion with an authentic timeline is the only way to go that will make everyone involved happy.
I hope to see the announcement come BY THE END OF THIS MONTH.
DEV TEAM: YOU NEED TO SHOW THE COMMUNITY YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS GAME.
PS: This is not a knock towards you Stormshade, you are clearly demonstrating that you "get it." This was meant as a wakeup call for all those around and above you that we havent "met" yet.
Giving a Concrete, set date this early could possibly be the worst thing one could do. Let's say they give a date, everyone cheers, things get hyped up. But then something catastrophic happens- an act of the gods causes the game release to be pushed back. Some people may be understanding, but many will rage and yell "YOU LIED TO US!" The community's faith in the game team wanes, and morale plummets.
I also respectfully disagree with "Get[ting] it to the beta testers asap."
Pushing an unfinished game to beta would probably kill the game, rather than cause the community to "blossom." I would rather wait longer for a more polished game than get a rough game pushed too early. There are more steps between development and Beta.
Instead, I hope the info from March/April includes maybe a video tour of a completed area, or maybe some info about gameplay? Hell, even a look at the character creation would be neat. Just a taste to whet the appetites of those of us who are already wicked excited for this game.
A word of warning no knee jerk changes from a vocal minority. Make a poll for the whole community in game to decide. One logs in and there is a poll about a change see if the majority of the community wishes the change.
One thing i have learned is you can't please everyone. I truely hope Neverwinter Online pleases me
I do hope that rogues can pick locks, disable traps (and traps are dangerous) climb walls, backstab etc etc.
I disagree, and here's why. There's been so many broken promises already, and the hype and community is almost nulled and voided. Look at this place, all thats left is a bit more than a few hopefuls. The volume on this site and communication so far is downright pitiful. And its not Storm's fault. He's doing all he can do.
Last thing Cryptic should do is to come out with a foggy "Who knows" answer. Anything like it and I bank on it that you can divide the few of us into thirds and kiss two thirds of us goodbye.
They need to do better than that, and soon.
The solution, at least from my viewpoint, is to include a hard timeline of events in their upcoming announcement. On this date we start our promotion engine. On this date we start our beta. On this date.... etc. As long as all goes well, we should be able to go live by _______.
A delay of a few months will be no problem for most because it can be sold as "quality assurance" that the final product will rock. They also would have kept us in the loop to the point that WE KNOW there's a product, and its this far along.
However just promising "quality assurance" without a timeline, without an explanation on the state of the game now, and how far along they think they are, is a recipe for failure.
Any announcement, without a majority of these details, will come off to many as "Cryptic isn't committed to this game". They've already stated a "soft release date" in Q4 of 2012. They have to get moving.. and they should communicate fully, and prove they are sticking as close to the deadlines they set so they will look ready, and be ready, to develop this game into the next decade.
You left out pick pockets.....
I agree totally with Storm, Jendrak and yourself on the rest.
Q4 is a bit better than a "who knows" imo.
Again, putting hard dates out before things are ready is a terrible idea. Look at how many times SWtOR was pushed back? Things happen. Making a promise they may not be able to keep is a terrible way to build confidence in the community.
Again, the game is still a looong ways away. We might be able to ask for some Dev Diary type things, but hard dates? Not a chance.
I don't see why any gaming company should have to divulge every single step they're going through on the path to release. An estimated release date is good enough, if they can stick to it. If it were September and they hadn't released any info, then maybe there would be reason to be a bit concerned. But until then, I think things are still in such an early stage that hard dates are not possible, and there is nothing they CAN communicate.
In a perfect universe, people could put out deadlines and stick to them 100% of the time. In the real world, that just is not possible. Putting out a roadmap like that to the public could seriously damage the faith of the community because if ANYTHING happens to push things back, people will be upset.
Pushing a game too hard, too early will kill it and I am far to excited about this game to want it pushed before it's ready.
Its perfectly ok to have different viewpoints on how Cryptic should proceed. You aren't looking for hard promises, but a good game. I am looking for a timeline (starting with hard dates for promotion and getting to beta release, then switching to soft dates to allow for bug fixes/quality control etc till release.) In essence, keeping us in the loop, much more often than they are doing now, with more concrete details.
"NWN 3" has been a boatload of broken promises, including changes to its very name, genre and dev team. The shiny inner-lining to me is, I feel Cryptic has the talent to make a helluva game and just like you, I'm looking for a great game.
As for specific examples there are many documented ones, but I'll quote a single article:
The Escapist - 6 October 2011 1:49 pm:
A year ago, Cryptic's Jack Emmert described Neverwinter as "a co-op Dragon Age with a touch of Oblivion." But while instanced dungeons, social hubs and other MMO-like features were on the menu, he made a point of noting that it would not in fact be an MMO. "I want people going in knowing that we're doing things differently to an MMO," he said.
But the situation got a little sticky back in May of this year when Atari offloaded Cryptic and Neverwinter to Chinese MMO company Perfect World. A few months later, the game was delayed, as Perfect World said it wanted to make the game "a more immersive experience."
All in all, I don't think our desires for Neverwinter are very far apart at all, and hopefully the next big announcement brings us closer on the details
The problem is that in software development, if the work is being done efficiently, each task only has to be completed once and the results of that task can be reused infinitely. As a result, each task is unique, and can involve very different challenges. Because each task is effectively "uncharted territory", any predictions are made without the benefit of the experience of having completed those specific tasks and without the knowledge of what unexpected challenges or hurdles need to be dealt with. So, to expect that a software team can accurately lay out a timeline of goals and have them reliably met is wishful thinking, at best.
As a result, a business is left with 2 choices: choose a fixed release date, and ship on that date regardless of the state of the product, or choose a certain level of quality for the product at release and release whenever the product reaches that level of quality. I, for one, prefer and recommend the latter approach because when customers are given incomplete products, it's very frustrating that those products don't behave as expected or desired.
Thats mostly true but you have left out how far along they are, and how much work is still left to do. That makes a big difference. They should be able to state if and when they plan to release a beta. Unless of course its simply too early in the process. Id hate to see a short-lived beta.
Considering the content will be free, and only consumables/vanity items will bare cost, they can have quite a long beta. Of course I agree with you that they shouldnt "release it" until its "ready". Quality is the highest priority.
However communication now and during the beta cycle can really solidify quality assurance and instill confidence in the gaming community.
In other words the release date should be soft dated, but good developer practices and procedures will ensure a better game sooner (through successful coding, testing and communication), and a game that will last longer, and be much more successful. That's the Neverwinter Im looking forward to playing.
Please dont make another WoW clone
If I spend another dime on games like Rift and star wars that use almost everything WoW has done and then add to it or slightly change it Ill shoot myself.
Second
This is D&D, give it some of what made the pen and paper so much fun, like multiple ways to do some fights or spells and abilities that are just for fun, not that are either a buff damage heal etc, but are just there to have some fun with.
And third
Its The Forgotten Realms, how bout some famous NPCs like Drizzt, and Elminster
So, the change because they were acquired by a different company=broken promise? That doesn't follow. Initially I'm sure the plan was to put out a game that wasn't an mmo, but when they were acquired by a different company who was producing the game, changes had to be made. That is hardly a legitimate reason to be disappointed in the team.
I don't think you quite understand how game production works. If the game isn't coming out til q4, beta won't come around until close to release. Many games have a Closed beta (invite only) and an Open Beta (pretty well anyone who wants in). But beta is not the first testing, hence the name BETA rather than ALPHA. I doubt the game- which is still around 7-9 months out, btw- is even in a legit Alpha, let alone any kind of Beta closed or otherwise. So a time line is, as nekoatl pointed out, wishful thinking.
Plus, what (other than when you can start playing) does knowing the release date do? Considering that a hard date is probably not even possible, more useful information that would more accurately show how far along they are would be screenshots, gameplay videos, or even more concept art. A timeline is just dates. Pics+vids are things we can drool over.
I've done betas and seen alphas and know (ironically) the best thing to do is not say anything and wait for release on their proposed schedule.
Saying another company bought the game means a broken promise for release is a bit presumptuous, and we'll need something more than one "Escapist." Vin is right.
As a roleplayer i absolutly hate those *****y asian games where all female armor looks like personally sponsored from Mr.Pimp. It totally kills the athmosphere!
As far as I've seen videos and screens of neverwinter the armor will look like i hoped for, THANKS FOR THAT! And please don't make any changes!!!
That is good thinking for many games, such as rpgs.. but its a death sentence for MMOs. There is much more communication necessary for a well run MMO, as regularly scheduled content will require much additional thought from the dev team, which in tandem will result in much banter on these forums from this player base.
This is maybe the first deviation in thought Ive seen since I've been here in relation to how MMOs and RPGs dev teams need to operate, and I think there may be issues going forward in the same vein in the community. Neverwinters dev team will need to be much more open and much more interactive with this community than was ever necessary for NWN 1 or 2.
I know full well how games development works, I've seen many and played more then most. I've been a gamer since the early 1980s.
I dont totally disagree with ya Truth & Vin, I just feel both of ya'll are a bit off track when you discuss this subject. Here's my thoughts...
1. Atari is the impetus behind my "broken promise" comment. Atari has a long history of leaving games in the dust, not promoting them properly, and stifling growth and profit. Just look up "Atari lawsuit" and give yourself a day or so to read the briefings. Having Atari out of the picture is the best thing that's happened to Neverwinter. As far as Neverwinter being an MMO, I'm slightly disappointed, yet still very excited. Its still a broken promise to the playerbase, and many in this forum in fact left permanently because of it.
2. Beta for this game shouldn't start too close to release. I was suggesting it start much sooner... so that we can try to 'break the game'. We need time to test the game mechanics, make suggestions, and help Cryptic make Neverwinter a much better game. Much more testing is necessary in an MMO such as Neverwinter.
3. MMOs take years to produce... however this game was pretty far along before the corporate suits switched it to an MMO, so its anyone's guess how far along they are to completion. Saying it isnt alpha yet is nothing more than a common mans guess.
These are just 3 reasons why we need more information, and why I'd like to see a timeline, or schedule, of what's to come. I have no problem with soft dates, as long as the final product goes live in or awfully close to Q4 2012.
I am in full agreement with Truth and Vin that quality is paramount and should override any decision to stick with a hard release date. I'd just like to see more commitment from Perfect World, and proof that they won't be just another Atari.
There was noting to break. The original company people anticipated a 2011 4Q co-op release and then it was bought by PWE. PWE asked for a conversion to MMO options thus delaying the game up to a year.
Nothing about promises; the only word ever used in any regularity was "soon," when it came to posting updates.
And you can't demand immediate releases then say "Quality Assurance," if there are delays after claiming "broken promises." That method looks like lying even if it isn't. Nobody will believe the details because a "solid date" was mapped. This isn't just affecting customers but investors and shareholders.
And finally we get into proprietary/NDA issues where things just...can't be released without breaching contracts and risking the whole project.
And if the US and Iraq have taught us nothing else, you do not broadcast a hard timetable of milestones when you do not have guarantees what the outcome will be yet. It will be done when it is done and we should expect an estimate of developmental goals based on work-flow, nothing more.
I would respectfully ask you Andre not to demand further on release times unless you can back up your requests with developmental experience shaping this (and I can't remember the last time anybody made a game like this and had its play theme completely redesigned, DDO included.)
Yeah I've even done development as an employee and done Alpha/Beta testing as a player (not this company but in general,) and I am wise enough to say "I don't know how long this will actually take unless I get more information on their project timeline."
Thank you for (albeit a bit sarcastically) repeating EXACTLY what I said. You are just not really comprehending what I've been asking for, and what has already been projected by the dev team. The dev team has already publically announced they are shooting for the game's completion by Q4 2012.
I was simply looking for a road map or timeline, and an extended beta, so that we can help make their plan a reality. A one or two month beta will not be enough for this game.
The hard dates that I'm looking for are in the beginning of the timeline... But I'd like to know much more than dates. I'd like to know how far along they are, and naturally see some graphics/videos/ etc and get into actual discussion of what the game is planned to ship with initially. The release date naturally cant be given assuringly, but a timeline or schedule of what is supposed to happen when, will make us all aware if they are on target for release or not.
By-the-by, I have worked in many phases for Hewlett Packard and other well known, and not-so-well-known computer companies in aspects ranging from game/computer/graphic design to sales to management. Yet sadly none of our experience matters in what I'm about to say..
If there's one thing Ive learned about MMO game design is the end users, the players have to play test the game moreso than ever before. And we are going to need time to find as many bugs, exploits and the many underlying issues that will certainly arise only when the largest QA pool (us) gets our hands on it. The day that the developer(s) were in charge of all the testing is long gone (traditional/waterfall development model). And that's even multiplied infinitely more where MMO's are concerned (a much more modern agile /extreme development/testing model will have to be used).
You are trying to show you have an understanding of game design, while putting others down, yet your attitude sadly is speaking louder and clouding not only your reading comprehension but your actual message, which is startlingly similar to what I've been saying.
I'm really done going back and forth about it. Let's wait until their announcement in a few weeks (hopefully) and see if we'll be able to shake hands and say we are satisfied, comfortable and excited about the pending release of Neverwinter.
As mentioned elsewhere the key will be to talk with your players on a regular basis. At the end of the day you will be the GM, at least in the pve arena. From my days in good old pen and paper D&D the one thing I remember was it was all about making the players feel as if they had achieved something. You will get a forum populated by whiners and complainers, fanboi's and flamers. If you can pick your way through them all and keep an eye on what your real players want, the ones that will stick it out through thick and thin, then all will be well. The problem I think is many devs get jaded with the barrage of complaints and requests.
Beyond that, it can't be said what's happening without more released info which we all look forward to.
Again, my apologies if it seemed I was trying to put anybody down which was not my intention or goal.
Not a problem at all. We are just looking forward to this game and were really saying the same things. Glad to see we worked it out
I'm really looking forward to being a valuable member of the community here, as I've been in DDO. I will praise when I feel its the right thing to do, regardless of how popular or unpopular it might be. I will give 'em hell too, if I feel they deserve it.
I must say I'm more upbeat than I was when I first came here, and I'm enjoying how the community is pulling together. Lets hope this time, its for keeps.
This (from the Why an MMO thread) has made my quarter! Now we know the term "MMO" means MORE content instead of RESTRICTED (co-op) content, I'm doing a Snoopy dance.
A Cross server LFD tool like WoW. Sorry but if you want this go back to WoW.
A LFR Finder Go back to WoW for this too
No Raid gear given to players who do not raid. I dont care how many dailies you finish you did not raid for the gear.
A Massive Single Player game like SWTOR is becoming more and more each patch.
Now what I do want to see.
A new way to build my Character I dont want it like DDO if you screw up you have to delete and start over. But I do want to see people not needing to do the standard cookie cutter specs.
I do want to see either 6/12 man raids, 8/16 man raids, 10/20 man raids or just strait 15 man raids.
I do want to see 10 to 15 instances for leveling that give out good xp like 20% of a level.
I do want to see a subscription where people can get the same stuff they could by piece meal from
I want to see RETRAINING. Thank you very much.
That being said, what if it was that often?
Someone else said something to the effect of, "I don't need people yelling at me that I didn't min/max."
I've found good use for generalists in many games, multi-player or otherwise. In fact, I'd suggest that bards and clerics prove that D&D promotes jacks of all trades, as do multi-class fight/mage/thf etc, of course. And D&D is a natural source of character concepts, so if my mage has good Constitution for some reason, read my char bio, or leave it alone.
While I can see where a rogue would want as much Dex as he can get, and pile on it with Gloves of Dexterity or some such, in previous games the mental scores were only used for spell casters of the appropriate type. Maybe for talking with Intimidate or Bluff. But DDO has no speaking of any kind, so not there. I don't know how you'd put Int/Wis/Cha to use outside the combat mechanic, but it'd be a win if a way were found. I know some of the 4E classes promote cross-class mechanics. I'm not that up on 4E, but if a warrior needs to be more likeable for some reason, it sounds fine to me.
Instead, each skill is tied to an ability score, and can be either trained or untrained, with training granting a +5 bonus. You get to select a few trained skills from your class list at level 1. You can opt to take a background bonus to allow you to pick 1 skill from outside your class when making these choices, or you can get a +2 background bonus to a skill instead. You also can get bonuses (usually +2) from your race, and certain feats, and some feats also grant training in specific skills.
So, practically speaking, the biggest limit is your ability scores. Aside from that, you can get respectable bonuses to any skills with any character.