Suggestion for Idris

hustin1

First, let me say that it's gratifying to be able to run Throne of Idris again, even if it's only as a one-time quest like the Clockwork Tomb. It fills a MAJOR plot hole that has been there since Mod 6 (April 11, 2015 to be precise). That's a long time, but thanks for addressing it.

Now, I have one gripe (though I think I understand your reasoning), and a suggestion. I noticed that you closed off the alternate route through the spider area. I'm guessing here that you want new players (as this is a leveling quest) to have a consistent experience. That makes sense. However, I would handle the spider area a little differently. Here's what I think you should do.

Players running this quest are roughly midway in the leveling process. This is a good time to introduce them to exploration beyond the strict confines of the quest. Open up the rear entrance to the spider area. This way, the path to Idris is still consistent, but players have the option of exploring a side passage. You can even have a hover appear saying that you don't think it leads to Idris. Exploration should be encouraged and rewarded. The reward is relatively minor as it's loaded with enemies, but there are (still) three skill nodes there and this bit of lore:



As it stands, only a Whisperknife can get in (as they are wont to do), and this is a shame. An inherent part of D&D is exploration. This is a good opportunity to let new players get their feet wet with it.

greywynd

An inherent part of the game rework of dungeons and such, has been railroading. If they decide no one has been going through an area, then no one gets to go through that area ever again.

Otherwise, why just ToI? Why not undo all the blockages of all the dungeons?

auron

why block the areas at all in the first place?

greywynd

Talk to the guy that started the blockages and ask?

hustin1

greywynd said:

Talk to the guy that started the blockages and ask?

I'm sure that person is long gone. They've been blocked since Mod 6, so we're talking seven years ago. I'd love to engage a dev on why they stay blocked, though.

greywynd

No bandwidth to do the unblocking? No motivation to do it? Right up there with "why aren't all the dungeons back in place?"

pitshade

That side passage was open for Tales of Old. Closing it, and also the secret room with the mimic near the beginning, were done for the solo version. Frozen Heart also had a side path removed as well as the looping tunnels at the first boss, which don't open up now. You can still get in using parkour. However the full version of FH is still in the available dungeon queues.

hustin1

pitshade said:

That side passage was open for Tales of Old. Closing it, and also the secret room with the mimic near the beginning, were done for the solo version. Frozen Heart also had a side path removed as well as the looping tunnels at the first boss, which don't open up now. You can still get in using parkour. However the full version of FH is still in the available dungeon queues.

Fair enough. So the questions I'd like to ask a dev become:

1. Is Idris ever going to come back to the dungeon queue, in its complete form?

2. Why not unblock the passages in the dungeon queue versions of Cragmire Crypts, Temple of the Spider, and Gray Wolf Den? In the case of Gray Wolf Den, "unblocking" also requires restoring a lever that opens a door into the small room with chests, saw traps, and an ogre who blasts out of a boarded-up door.

From what I've seen when investigating, to properly unblock each of the dungeons would require a small amount of work involving restoring some enemies.

1. Cragmire Crypts: one room needs to have some undead restored (one says something like, "Blackdagger bandits are never more dangerous than when we're dead!") Another passage needs a couple groups of spiderlings restored.

2. Temple of the Spider: while the lore scroll is still on the ground, the area is now devoid of enemies. The first area should have duergar and the second area should be loaded with undead. The second area also should have two gelatinous cubes, one that appears immediately and another that appears behind you when you reach the room with the sarcophagi.

3. Gray Wolf Den: some of the side rooms need to have enemies restored. The surprise ogre room might also need its saw traps restored.

Of course, if you have backups of these dungeons stored, you can check them to see what elements are missing.

chaderickrax

One of the most disappointing change in the rework was the removal of exploration.

I mean, the whole point was to get closer to D&D. So, they went to a 20-level system (good) and then removed all choice from the game (bad).

If you're playing a game of D&D that is as railroaded as Neverwinter is now, then you have a TERRIBLE Dungeon Master.

When I started (November 2020, I'm still pretty new), Neverwinter had a great sense of exploration. Run into trouble in Helm's Hold? Go to Ebon Downs! Run into trouble in Skyhold? Hop over to Icespire Peak!

ALL those options have gone the way of race- and class-based quests.

There is only one way through Neverwinter.

And now, due to Milestone-leveling, there is no purpose in exploration. You won't find any surprising gear or lore (unless you bump into the guy in a robe who will give you "lore quests," but after you find him you're done). You won't get any growth for your character. And the only thing you WILL find is random mobs of the same monsters that you've fought since you arrived in that adventure zone.

I enjoy the new leveling campaign, I really do. But every time I play it, I look down the passages that no longer hold meaning and think, "I remember when exploration was a part of this game. I miss feeling like it was worth my time to actually go down that passage."

Moral of the story: 20 levels doesn't mean D&D. Milestone leveling might be mainstream, but it only works when done properly. If you remove exploration and relegate the game to killing boss monsters, you really don't have D&D anymore...and you're not doing milestone leveling properly.

For decades I've groaned every time someone told me I was "doing D&D wrong," but Dear Lord, this doesn't feel right at all.

chaderickrax

(NOTE: The answer is not to remove the passages that used to hold wonder! The answer is to return wonder to the game!!!)

hustin1

There was a little-known quest, almost certainly gone now with the leveling rework, in Icespire Peak. No existing quest led you there. You could only find it on your own by exploring the map. You could stumble upon an obscure cave partway up the mountain. Inside were a number of trolls and goblins, and dead dwarf messenger. Searching the messenger gave you a quest to take his message up to a dwarf outpost.

There was a similar quest in Pirates' Skyhold where you could come upon the lair of a giant spider called The Predator. There is a feeling of wonder in discovering something entirely upon your own instead of being led there by the nose.

"But most people won't find it," I can hear a Cryptic designer saying. That's okay, indeed that's the point. There's nothing wondrous in finding an off-grid quest that everyone knows about. Quests like that reward exploration and induce players to explore more. One of the entire points of D&D is that it's a world limited only by imagination. You can find just about anything in D&D. Exploration is expected and rewarded. Play any D&D module and that point is obvious.

Whoever originally designed those maps really got it. That person understood the drive to explore and the wonder in discovery. As long as off-grid quests aren't critical to player advancement, not only is there no harm in them, the game's richness benefits from them. Some lore, some gold, a cool transmute, a short quest chain: it's enough for quests like those. There should be many such off-grid quests and many off-grid areas to explore, both in maps and in dungeons. Chris used to talk about "building worlds" but this is anything but. it's a one-dimensional, formulaic experience. Someone is way too enamored with the notion of "everyone gets the same experience" and has completely lost touch with his inner child.

pitshade

The cave and quest are both still there in Icespire Peak. I imagine the new devs didn't know about it. The Thief's dropped quest is still available in the Chasm as well.

hustin1

Out of curiosity I'm replaying the Cloaked Ascendancy quest where you go to Blacklake. Now it drops you directly in the hideout instead of letting you find it. So Blacklake District has been completely wiped from existence. Man, you devs are just determined to make playing this game as dull and uninspiring as possible.

greywynd

hustin1 said:

Man, you devs are just determined to make playing this game as dull and uninspiring as possible.

Maybe they think it is a gift.