Something the devs need to understand about players and content

hustin1

I've been away for a year, but I've been back for about a week to both make sure my account doesn't get nuked and to get my (21) alts transitioned to the new refining system (since trade-in windows never last forever). I've since learned that a whole lot of leveling maps have been removed for "reworking".

Now, let me get this out right at the start: I don't buy the reworking line for a single second, at least not entirely. We were fed the same line in 2015 regarding nine dungeons prior to Mod 6, and seven years later most of them are still MIA. Sorry, but no.

That said, another reason a dev mentioned is one that I do in fact believe: that at least some of them, according to their analytics, were hardly being utilized.

I actually think this is very plausible, at least according to my experience.

When I was still playing, most of our new guild members were new to the game. The overwhelming majority weren't interested in the leveling process and simply wanted to gear up as quickly as possible so they could run endgame or near-endgame content. They speedran to 80 as fast as they could and then they wanted to know the most efficient way to gear up.

The point here is that, at least in this game, most players will only run content under two circumstances:

- The game literally forces them to run it
- They cannot survive in later content without the gear that the content provides

I'd love for there to be a third reason, that they want to experience the content for what it is, but sadly, this isn't the case. My point here is that if people weren't running those introductory quests, the reason was the *exact same* reason that players weren't running Foundry content: there wasn't anything in it for them, at least as far as they were concerned. They were skipping introductory quests that dropped introductory loot. When you factor in scaling and how item level progressed, they could acquire enough gear in certain introductory quests such that they could skip entire maps without any impact to their ability to progress. They would miss out on the content, the lore, and some unique transmutes, but this doesn't matter to a player who is entirely goal-oriented.

This is something that the devs should bear in mind: reworking an introductory quest into a flashier introductory quest won't make any difference when you take player mentality into account. Goal-oriented players will still skip content that they don't absolutely need to get to endgame content. Those players aren't in it for the storytelling or the journey. It makes me wonder why they're even playing a game in a virtual world if they aren't interested in the actual world it's in, but that's a topic for another discussion.

Regardless, it's a mentality that should inform what the devs "rework" all those maps into. Not that I'm holding my breath for their return. As for myself, it means that I have zero incentive to start a new alt, even of the new bard class, as going through all those leveling stories was for me the most fun part of the game. But then I'm not a goal-oriented player: I play for the journey along the way.

hustin1

I'm going to follow up a little with what interests *me*. I presume that I'm in the minority based on how the game has progressed over the years.

First let me start off by saying that grinding through a campaign for the next set of gear so I can run the latest dungeon, just to get the next piece of dungeon gear, repeated ad nauseam, doesn't interest me. If that's the goal of the game then I can't be bothered. I'm not here for the occasional dopamine hit of seeing my stat numbers increase or the adrenaline rush of beating Incredibly Hard Boss(tm) #672. That sort of experience leaves me nonplussed.

What does interest me is getting pulled into the fact that we're in the Forgotten Realms and feeling like we're actually in a dynamic world that lives and breathes of its own accord. By this I'm *not* talking about dynamically-changing content. Please get your heads out of game-mechanics-space. I'm talking about that feeling like there is more going on than meets the eye.

For example: I've enjoyed speculating *why* a Thayan is helping the Blackdagger bandits in Cragmire Crypts, and then slinking around the little-used, hardly-ever-visited side areas to look for clues (there are four such areas in said dungeon, all blocked off nowadays). I've enjoyed brainstorming with alliance members about *why* certain enemies are appearing at the stronghold, why they're saying what they're saying, and wondering if some obscure clues could be found elsewhere.

I've wondered a lot why Thayans are capturing tribes in Vellosk to such a degree that it's driving them to our stronghold.

I've wondered why there are Drow runes at the stronghold and whether a clue or two lies hidden in the (rather large) side area in the Temple of the Spider (that area is also blocked off by a boulder nowadays).

I've wondered why repairs in Protector's Enclave have gone so slowly over the past eight years. Is there a conspiracy? Is there something being hidden beyond one of the city's inner gates, possibly even from Neverember himself?

Too much of the game is concentrated on campaigns and the endless grind for loot. I'm here to ***adventure***, not to grind. I could harp for the thousandth time about losing the Foundry, but that's only part of the equation. There's a real void in the game experience, and while the Foundry helps fill it, even at its height it couldn't do it entirely.

We get called adventurers but we rarely adventure. We grind and farm. It's a pitiful experience for players who are here to really adventure. Dungeons are completely one-dimensional today. They are *solely* about getting the loot at the end chest. I find this incredibly boring and I don't run any of them. A dungeon that has multiple purposes and areas, that you might enter for a variety of reasons, is far more interesting.

Maybe I don't want to enter Temple of the Spider to defeat Sydryth for the thousandth time. Maybe I want to enter it because either a quest or a clue is leading me there -- not to face her, but to search for something else entirely.

None of the examples I've outlined above need a campaign or even a specific "adventure". They only need an NPC to hand out a kickoff quest. That's all adventuring requires: a good story and a set of quests to implement it. You have lots of talented artists. What you need to use are talented writers.

Adventuring doesn't require lots of unique, ultra-flashy maps. They only require quests with engaging stories. You already have plenty of maps, used and unused, that would suit the purpose.

greywynd

Speed-leveling never should have been allowed to become a thing.

The fact that the removed areas hardly saw use is a failure of the developers. When one can run the storyline and get enough xp to skip a zone or two, that's a red flag that should have been addressed in a manner other than letting players get through zones even faster.

silente07

Let’s be honest, the game isn’t close to what it was before mod 6 or 16.
The casual aspects are gone once you finish the adventures to level 20.
After that it’s all grinding and punishing content. The simple act of gathering resources on maps can be life or death.
There is no more adventure, it’s just get the higher item level gear.
It’s a game about economy and stats.

plasticbat

Nobody knows what kind of player they want to deal with and try to "understand".
Stuff I want probably is the stuff you hate and vice versa.
I am pretty sure I am not the kind of player they want though.

And nobody can force me to run anything that I don't want to run.

strathkin

hustin1 said:

What does interest me is getting pulled into the fact that we're in the Forgotten Realms and feeling like we're actually in a dynamic world that lives and breathes of its own accord...

For example: I've enjoyed speculating *why* a Thayan is helping the Blackdagger bandits in Cragmire Crypts, and then slinking around the little-used, hardly-ever-visited side areas to look for clues (there are four such areas in said dungeon, all blocked off nowadays). I've enjoyed brainstorming with alliance members about *why* certain enemies are appearing at the stronghold, why they're saying what they're saying, and wondering if some obscure clues could be found elsewhere.

I've wondered a lot why Thayans are capturing tribes in Vellosk to such a degree that it's driving them to our stronghold.

I've wondered why there are Drow runes at the stronghold and whether a clue or two lies hidden in the (rather large) side area in the Temple of the Spider (that area is also blocked off by a boulder nowadays).

I've wondered why repairs in Protector's Enclave have gone so slowly over the past eight years. Is there a conspiracy? Is there something being hidden beyond one of the city's inner gates, possibly even from Neverember himself?

...

Maybe I don't want to enter Temple of the Spider to defeat Sydryth for the thousandth time. Maybe I want to enter it because either a quest or a clue is leading me there -- not to face her, but to search for something else entirely.

Adventuring doesn't require lots of unique, ultra-flashy maps. They only require quests with engaging stories. You already have plenty of maps, used and unused, that would suit the purpose.

I would AGREE with much of that, while I admit I don't mind Campaigns now, especially since the change to more weekly friendly schedule!

I do however SUPPORT far more story telling in campaigns, especially if each class could learn different things in a Campaign. You could team with another class to unlock or discover more, and might encourage more to earn titles or other items! With 9 Classes that a lot of opportunity to party with various others to reveal different parts of the story! Early on they did that a bit in some of the earlier area's, it happened a little in Tower district, yet never really spend much time of developed it. In Campaigns or Dungeons it could also unlock alternative rewards for side quests; then when you unlock all 9 on a Character choose a decent reward.

Their is certainly a lot of options available to them, yet I would certainly love better story-telling for sure!

Unknown

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aslan3775

I thought the storytelling aspect of the game was something the Devs learned they needed when they used Salvatore to write an entire module--after they removed a bunch of the flavor of the game. He did a great job creating a storyline quest, including having multiple options for saving throws based upon different character classes. When you encountered his characters and needed to make choices, there were repercussions for those choices--sometimes giving different titles, sometimes causing npcs to become frustrated or angry.

In short, it was fun to interact with the storyline.

Some of that is still available. To a certain extent, albeit annoying with some of the repetitive humor, the Incorporated adventure was a bit like that interaction. And it fulfilled a story line. Running on some alts now without all the repetitive stuff, it actually is much more enjoyable than running it when it came out.


those types of adventures seem to fulfill a limited type of D&D interaction--not just a "third person shooter" in a 'medieval setting'.

mynaam

Sorry to say this but saying something here will mean nothing the devs only listen to private preview players. That means they only listen to BIS players. By the time we get to test things on public preview they have their minds made up and we are there to do the test private previewers think is beneath them(reason so many bugs slip through)! Yes there is no mid game at all. Statements by devs on official channels like not meant for everyone when referring to trials hurt the game! Removing beloved content like the real sharandar/real demogorgon/ real tiamat and replacing it with bis only versions is just not helping!

CREATE A MID GAME and then have every 2nd mod be a non BIS ONLY mod. We have now had more than 13 BIS ONLY mods in a row!!!!! This is just not gonna help you keep players!!!!! You get a decent amount of player base bump every new mod (returning and new players) You fail to keep them and loose them in weeks!!! This should make it clear that you are doing the wrong things!

If you plan on releasing a stronghold mod in the near future please make sure you fix the current sh system first!!!! It is now impossible for new guilds (friends that just started and want to make their own guild .. don't have the fake sharandar unlocked) to level their STRONGHOLD AT ALL!!!!! You want players in mod 23 to choose between leveling sh and actually doing mod content? that makes no sense at all. PLEASE STOP BIS ONLY MENTALITY.

The player base is at its lowest EVER (more than 40% player base drop since NOVEMBER!!!) We need to start taking player base drop SERIOUS and not just cater to people that make video's for their ego's!!!

cracklepants

As the effects, textures and models have gotten prettier, the content has gotten stale and boring. Maybe they need to rebalance team resources and build compelling content first. In my opinion, the last compelling content was Barovia, but even then, they were moving towards grinding. Also, a first-time player should not be able to get to end-game content in a few weeks.

greywynd

But that's where the money is. Just ask them.

silente07

The Devs have stayed the game is not casual. Once you get to 20, casual fun is over. Now it’s just work. Long time players have resources to fall back on, new players if they don’t wish to grind forever, they can pay.
All trials are harder and scaling ensures EVERY time you play you are challenged, even farming resources.
Classes remain terribly imbalanced and story has been shaved for BIS.
Strongholds are a drain of resources and don’t bother leveling them.
They stated flat out casual is gone.
That’s why so many have left.
People want escapism from their games, not a second job.

mithrosnomore

How much income does "story" generate? Because that's why there is limited story now. It doesn't pay.

I am not opposed to the OP's viewpoints, but there are a lot of players to understand, and the devs have chosen to try and understand the players that spend a lot of money the most.
How can they get them to spend more? What do they like to spend money on? How much can we charge for this and that and still keep them paying? All that good stuff.


I am certainly not the type of player that they want. I just happened to log in this evening to do a little "adventuring" and discovered that enchantments have underwent some sort of change. Not at all sure what sort of change, exactly, since I can't figure out what I am supposed to do with the old ones or how to acquire whatever new things I am supposed to be using, but I have asked about that elsewhere.

Point being, I play a little. Last time I put money into the game I fell for the Aasimaar option in the Redeemed Citadel thing so I paid for the Reforger's Blessing... I was nowhere near geared to run that when it started so I paid the, what? $50.00 to be able to run it on my own time?
Well, however much time has passed and I *might* be ready to run it now, but I don't even know where to start. Somewhere in Avernus I am sure. Maybe I'll get around to it one day. After I get the enchantment issue squared away, of course. And I am not sure that a Paladin is the best class to try it with.
Or if it can be done solo.
Or if anyone else is doing it now days anyway.

And I really don't care anymore.

Oh, sure, I am out $50 and I care about that... Not that it's anyone's business but I am disabled and disability doesn't pay well. But I just see more and more monetization behind every turn and I am over it.

I'll take my "mundane" normal old F2P character and run them through some "mundane" old content and get my fill from swinging my sword or mace, and be satisfied with that, I guess.

But I think my time here draws to a close. 6 months since I last logged in. Pushing a year for other toons, including the Ranger who was my "main" before Paladin came into the game, but the game has changed a lot since those days, and not much, in this player's opinion, for the better.