Wish you luck on Champions' survival @blargskull , though you may have just given him an idea where to mess with next
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,161Arc User
I don't expect the shutdown of Magic Legends to impact on Neverwinter at all. Neverwinter will continue to sink all on its own.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
I find it very weird the main topic of conversation is about another game that is in the process of being shutdown.
I just came in to check on my ZAX thread, still no movement there. It won't surprise me to be two or three weeks before we get another "Hey! I got some Zen!" posting in there.
BTW I don't know when Cryptic got the new Neverwinter developer? I was out stalking my usual prey and I stumbled across this YouTube video of Neverwinter's Lead Game Designer, Salim Grant. At 4 minutes a viewer asked, "How can I make a game fun to play?" His answer should be pretty obvious... instead he says, "Fun is super subjective, but ... I don't know... you gotta ... (laughs) that's tough, whatever your design is you got to define what it is and break it down into its core components and execute on that."
No offense Mr. Grant, you never had fun a day in your life... ever, have you? This is man is the future that is soon to be Neverwinter. Best of luck to all of you!
After watching the entire video, please Mr. Grant, stay away from Champions. Thank you and best wishes to you too.
only numbers($$) attract investers, not player hype, players hype is a small addition, we have some neverwinter "whales" that buy the most expensive stuff they add to zen store, multiple buys, and put the possible sales items in ah, so free to play players buy them and then they have their income ad, they dont make ad through zax.
a developer point of view of fun is different from player point of view,
> @arcanjo86 said: > only numbers($$) attract investers, not player hype, players hype is a small addition, we have some neverwinter "whales" that buy the most expensive stuff they add to zen store, multiple buys, and put the possible sales items in ah, so free to play players buy them and then they have their income ad, they dont make ad through zax. > > a developer point of view of fun is different from player point of view,
When you make games for reaching certain metrics, you stop making games for people. I think that's something that's been forgotten over the past few years. There seems to be a large disconnect between what players want and enjoy versus what the company wants in terms of "metrics." They really should probably go do some soul searching and rediscover the "people aspect" because metrics numbers don't play games, people do.
"I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..." Featured Foundry Quest:Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
To be fair, the question was very broad and open ended. The person asked about a "generic game". But Salim Grant seems to be thinking too much and is over analyzing the question. My simple answer would be, People make your games fun.
Beyond that, each player likes different styles and genre. If I were making a horror game, it will not appeal to people who want sci-if or combat games. Most players like risk, they like gamble and take a chance. If your game deals with combat, some players will not care for an army of bullet sponges, the direct opposite is also true they don't like to one-shot kill everything either.
We have to remember, he was put on the hotseat for that question, I can look at it with 20/20 hindsight, and tell you my response. Mr. Grant is like most developers, they have lost their inner child, the world has hardened them to facts, numbers, and demographics. When I am bouncing my grandchild on my knee and he asks me, "What makes Christmas fun?" I sure don't want to tell the boy, stuff about 401K plans, lower unemployment rates, resurgence of the economic growth, and discount sales.
So you are saying I should learn to keep my fat mouth shut @sagakaiyume#0847 ?
I suppose @hotfrostworm is correct, I don't think I could be snappy with answers. I still don't see fun time sunshine sitting in charge of the game. I would like to have at least heard something along the lines of "people are into different things", or even asked the question, "That depends, what kind of game are we talking about?". To get all bewildered and say I don't know fun is, let's get a focus group together and find out, is not good.
Oh btw, I can't wait until I get a grandson so I can tell him exactly what you said... and I will add, and that is why the Easter Bunny has nothing to do with it.
Just killing time...
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,161Arc User
Family makes Christmas fun.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
they are not making the game for us, they are making the game to attract investors
What's attractive to investors is return on investment, that equates to income and income equates to happy players who keep coming back and are retained while a constant stream of new players come and build income and also stay. At the moment and for quite some time we have too many unhappy players who leave, both existing and new.
One thing which makes happy players is consistency. They want to keep coming back because they have built something they enjoy and are proud of and know what to expect each time they return. Consistency is an important thing. I'm not comparing games because they are so different, but I've been playing an online multiplayer social game with similar themes to Neverwinter (orcs, monsters, mages, rogues, clerics, warriors, guilds, PVP) called Castle Age for so many years I've lost count. It could have been 2009 I started playing but I forget. It wasn't long after that if it was later. It's basically exactly the same as it was when it started, they just slowly add to the content/items and add a few new abilities and introduce the usual events throughout the year. It's an extremely active and busy game even today and guilds are very invested. But the interface has not changed one bit, the way the game works and how combat works has not changed one bit, battles, monsters, guilds, all work the same as they always have, they did re-do the graphics on some of the generals at one point so they look different to how they used to, but really, it's all pretty original. I know when I go there exactly what I need to do and how it works and I would never dream of leaving.
Neverwinter should be able to develop and grow and introduce new content without altering what's already there so much it becomes a new game and pushes people away because that was not what they signed-up for. Players who know what to expect even before they log-on will be happy players who keep coming back again and again, and happy (retained) players are what investors want.
Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,161Arc User
Investors should play the game for a while. If they aren't willing to spend money in the game then they shouldn't consider spending money on the game.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
It's so funny, when here players talks that Neverwinter where OK before mod 16 and then it become terrible.
The reason why such big change where made with mod 16 was not cuz staff where bored. It was done cuz game was not OK.
Perhaps time to refresh everyones memories here.
The pre mod 16 where, Brain Dead, buff/debuff creep based gameplay, where dungeons difficulity where measured by speedruning. Boss where very tought, lasting few seconds at best. Party variety aslo where "great" 1 dps and rest of group buff/debuff feeders, regular party composition x2 DC's, x1 OP as buff providers.
Here I noted someone mentioned that we should get back to Multiplicative dmg formula, what a nonsense. As example, in mod 10.5 ( Sea of Moving Ice) My warlock had 50k power, in FBI run with not even max out x2 clerics x1 paladin due buff creep I easily hit 190+k power. And I was not even mid tier player. Multiplicative forumula can be used only on few buffs, but with long cool downs. Otherwise there is no way to have any game balance. And thats not only here in NWO in other mmos is same situation. If you have multiplicative formula based bufffs and there are a lot, then you break game..
A big portion of playerbase left in mod 14, cuz lot of players where bored, mod 15 which was aimed for low/mid tier players made even bigger dissapointment among high end players, which caused another big wave of playerbase lose.
And to remind everyone, in that time mod 15 big portion of playerbase begged, I repeat Begged devs to give a challenge.
So you all want it back? Where your presence as player is not even required, and usually gamplay where > log in> ~30 ming gameplay, then go play other mmo.
In mod 10 players where telling that old days where better,, but in old days we had same posts too. Same now,, everyone repeating that old days where better,, yet all forgot all old complain fiestas..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
It's so funny, when here players talks that Neverwinter where OK before mod 16 and then it become terrible.
Personally some think they hit peak on module 14 Ravenloft and would like to rewind back before module 15 Heart of Fire. I kind of liked Heart of Fire, not for the repetition, but the zany characters that invaded Neverwinter. It wasn't taking itself so serious, and I found the humor was ok. The issue was all the office humor, but that is A.I. schtick. I always felt, if you didn't like 15 then just don't play it.
The reason why such big change where made with mod 16 was not cuz staff where bored. It was done cuz game was not OK.
Perhaps time to refresh everyones memories here.
The pre mod 16 where, Brain Dead, buff/debuff creep based gameplay, where dungeons difficulity where measured by speedruning. Boss where very tought, lasting few seconds at best. Party variety aslo where "great" 1 dps and rest of group buff/debuff feeders, regular party composition x2 DC's, x1 OP as buff providers.
Here I noted someone mentioned that we should get back to Multiplicative dmg formula, what a nonsense. As example, in mod 10.5 ( Sea of Moving Ice) My warlock had 50k power, in FBI run with not even max out x2 clerics x1 paladin due buff creep I easily hit 190+k power. And I was not even mid tier player. Multiplicative forumula can be used only on few buffs, but with long cool downs. Otherwise there is no way to have any game balance. And thats not only here in NWO in other mmos is same situation. If you have multiplicative formula based bufffs and there are a lot, then you break game..
A big portion of playerbase left in mod 14, cuz lot of players where bored, mod 15 which was aimed for low/mid tier players made even bigger dissapointment among high end players, which caused another big wave of playerbase lose.
I think you are confusing module numbers here? Ravenloft 14 was the population increase of 35%. People were not leaving that I am aware of at that point?
And to remind everyone, in that time mod 15 big portion of playerbase begged, I repeat Begged devs to give a challenge.
So you all want it back? Where your presence as player is not even required, and usually gamplay where > log in> ~30 ming gameplay, then go play other mmo.
In mod 10 players where telling that old days where better,, but in old days we had same posts too. Same now,, everyone repeating that old days where better,, yet all forgot all old complain fiestas..
Most of what I am seeing here is character balance and has little to do with what module 15 to 16 introduced and took away from the game. From this, I would say you are seeking old character stats and not the removal of actual modules.
Let's pretend the developers actually gave a hoot, if they made a Neverwinter Classic game like Blizzard. What would be the perfect restore point for this game? Meaning all the new features would get pulled and old features returned to the game. I will start by saying module 5, this eliminates a lot but the first major screw up was Elemental Evil module 6. This would remove Paladins but bring back the Foundry at it's best. Everything up to Tyranny of Dragons while it was grindy, most players were ok with it. Do you agree? What is the best cut off for a classic version?
It's so funny, when here players talks that Neverwinter where OK before mod 16 and then it become terrible.
Personally some think they hit peak on module 14 Ravenloft and would like to rewind back before module 15 Heart of Fire. I kind of liked Heart of Fire, not for the repetition, but the zany characters that invaded Neverwinter. It wasn't taking itself so serious, and I found the humor was ok. The issue was all the office humor, but that is A.I. schtick. I always felt, if you didn't like 15 then just don't play it.
The reason why such big change where made with mod 16 was not cuz staff where bored. It was done cuz game was not OK.
Perhaps time to refresh everyones memories here.
The pre mod 16 where, Brain Dead, buff/debuff creep based gameplay, where dungeons difficulity where measured by speedruning. Boss where very tought, lasting few seconds at best. Party variety aslo where "great" 1 dps and rest of group buff/debuff feeders, regular party composition x2 DC's, x1 OP as buff providers.
Here I noted someone mentioned that we should get back to Multiplicative dmg formula, what a nonsense. As example, in mod 10.5 ( Sea of Moving Ice) My warlock had 50k power, in FBI run with not even max out x2 clerics x1 paladin due buff creep I easily hit 190+k power. And I was not even mid tier player. Multiplicative forumula can be used only on few buffs, but with long cool downs. Otherwise there is no way to have any game balance. And thats not only here in NWO in other mmos is same situation. If you have multiplicative formula based bufffs and there are a lot, then you break game..
A big portion of playerbase left in mod 14, cuz lot of players where bored, mod 15 which was aimed for low/mid tier players made even bigger dissapointment among high end players, which caused another big wave of playerbase lose.
I think you are confusing module numbers here? Ravenloft 14 was the population increase of 35%. People were not leaving that I am aware of at that point?
he's probably talking about the ravenloft banwave, where a lot of people boycotted not because the game was unfun but because they got banned for cheating when cheating ofc, should have been ok. because stuff n junk
To comment on defining fun: People can help make a fun game but I'm pretty sure there are psychological metrics that have been measured in game making of things that engage people and make them stay. It's not all loosey goosey people are LOVEEEEEEEE..
No, this kind of game is all about engaging the OCD in people. That's the compulsive grind. We don't know why we want to grind here but we have shiny things to chase. Character building and PROGRESSION..
but now, there is no real progression. There is no reason to do end game content. nothing to chase anymore and because of scaling there is no reason to build out for end game. enchants are basically worthless. they don't add much to your character and the new gear is boring. Old weapons are better than new weapons but at the end of the day all weapons aren't that different so who cares... to top that all off its now incredibly convoluted on how to actually balance your stats. it was a tiny bit convoluted before but it made sense. Now it's just messy.
Chase items: endorphins are released when we see the shiny things at the end of a dungeon and we see that thing we've always wanted, because shiny. Those endorphins hook you in. I've had times where I was near walking away and got that legendary mount or a super rare drop in a dungeon and was like OMG I'M IN LOVE with this game again.
The problem here is nothing has value anymore. Nothing is really rare. There is nothing worth having or getting a brain buzz over. If that legendary thing drops now, it's ho hum.. another freaking thing. yay...
the market has been thoroughly broken. inflation is run away things that used to be gold standard for trading are worthless etc.
The pace of combat is also very important. The reason people liked speed runs is because fast is fun. Beating at a hp bar for 20 minutes makes you want to take a nap and your hands get carpal tunnel. A few loud voices were heard that hated it, but people did it because they enjoyed it. If people weren't enjoying it people would not be doing it compulsively. Most were not good enough to do those kinds of runs or just didn't care. It was the 2 percent club doing that.
Speed runs aside the pacing was good. team composition changed game play A LOT back then. I personally remember enjoying both premades that were optimal and doing sub optimal runs for challenge. There was more diversity in builds you could do in characters. It was NICE not having the holy trinity for group comp. It was one of the unique things about this game that made it great.
It wasn't bad.
The game was still fine and going strong mod 15. All they needed to do was a tuck here and a nip there. Instead they engaged thermonuclear warfare against their own game.
There are probably a few aspects I'm forgetting. I know the role players have been underserved as well.
So basically, you had all these various aspects before that did give joy to different kind of players. Not everyone was a dungeon chaser, not everyone was a role player, not everyone was trying to become scrooge mcduck or build a mastercrafting empire, not everyone had a second life built around building characters..
but ALL of those things have been basically taken out of the game or ruined in one way or another.
as far as classic cut off for me it would be mod 12. (before 12.b) but I liked the content up to 15. but I wouldn't stay long if there wasn't new content for it. no point
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,161Arc User
Before was better. Every zone had a dungeon. The Foundry was active.
Now, we are getting one of the dungeons back. Woo hoo... [/sarcasm]
We're crossing over with Krynn. The dragons are leaving.
No dungeons. No dragons.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Mod 14 was great before the banwave. I personally didn't encounter/see the kind of "fast hunt"/card cheat that got people banned until I heard of husas stream (and that was after it was ported over to consoles, obv) because I just had so much fun with the normal way of hunts. (Most people just play the game btw... We tend to blow huntgate out of proportion simply because a few people could make so much that it impacts HAMSTER even now... I never did, my friends never did it, and most people I know that knew if it never did it themselves) Everybody was online, everybody farmed, not everybody liked the hunts, but we still had salvage and it was great to just have this volume. The amount of people was great. Some spent all day in CR after it was out, some spent all day farming posters and selling sisters for a fortune, some farmed low posters for salvage and coins - there was something to do for various levels of difficulty that went hand in hand with eachother. My whole alli was getting stuff done.
I really do not understand people that think pre Mod 15 game was bad. It wasn't balanced, and it was great fun.
I started mod 14 during 2x exp event, quit after hitting 70, came back late mod 15 and actually enjoyed the game. I never knew about the "unbalance" the game had at the time, heck I couldn't get people to do dungeons with me in the guild I had joined until mod 16 when those people decided "oh, you know, now we do need a fighter tank".
Taking away exp leveling from the game is great, but the fact you hit max level in under 24 hours is a joke. Hitting max level and being given bad information is what ruined the game from me, so with them curating campaigns more I find it a good thing (required IL/ordering).
These devs' mistakes have purely been devaluing player's time/investments and removing content. Whichever 'version' of gear score/character sheet people liked most will be debatable. Sure, there are bugs but those can be fixed within current module if they wanted to, but content gone is always going to be bad.
The reason why Horizontal progression works in games like Guild wars 2, is because "zen" store there isn't selling bis companions, enchants, mounts and so on. You can't have a working store that sells you power, for your power to mean little if anything. For example, we went mod 15 darks being movespeed, then it was removed, now its back as Azures, with their excuses for removing them being completely worthless. People from mod 15-21 means we went from azures in utility, to darks (mod 16), to tacticals (tomm), to darks again (nerf tacticals) then azures again. Each time wiping the price of our stuff and making us change them.
I have made ~100m since I stopped playing after the combat changes, if I was playing the game, actively, doing dungeon runs, upgrading the best companions of the moment, I would have lost money simply due to drops being negligible, having to learn/carry groups and so on. A game that you make more not playing than playing is a failed game.
Let's face it, even if they added a classic version of the game, like most other companies that add classic, we'd still want things added back into the game or improvements which if they can't improve what we have now, do we really think a classic version run by the same company would do better?
(Most people just play the game btw... We tend to blow huntgate out of proportion simply because a few people could make so much that it impacts HAMSTER even now...
the economic dmg that happened from huntgate was inconsequential in comparison to the nuking of the market with the bonding and companion exp exchange. I think what was generated in huntgate moved the zax marginally. but with the bonding/comp exp introduction, it went from basically zero on xbox to a month wait in 12 hours. it's still in place and you can still generate bondings and companion experience treatises. pc went from months out to something nearish to a year.. there is no other word for it than ruinous.
Personally some think they hit peak on module 14 Ravenloft and would like to rewind back before module 15 Heart of Fire. I kind of liked Heart of Fire, not for the repetition, but the zany characters that invaded Neverwinter. It wasn't taking itself so serious, and I found the humor was ok. The issue was all the office humor, but that is A.I. schtick. I always felt, if you didn't like 15 then just don't play it.
The peak of Neverwinter popilarity where mod 5. The reason is very simple.
We had action combat based gameplay, thought Life steal was only whom where breaking perfect balance.. Low stats, thats mean players skills, team work and experience was center of gameplay not some minimal element.
We had 25 players tiamat( legecay) which where hard to clear, and required team work. On top we had normal dungeons, and epic ( same dungeons as regular ones just upscaled to epic tier). And on top we had Foundry.
Now during mod 14 ravenlof I have seen how multiple alliances bigger and smaller ones left game. So to say that it was peak of NWO sounds silly.
I think you are confusing module numbers here? Ravenloft 14 was the population increase of 35%. People were not leaving that I am aware of at that point?
Have you forgot mass ban wave due Barovia Hunt glitch explotation and that after ban, even more players left. Even before that happens I have seen how multiple alliances left game, the ones who already where capable to do end game content all in alliance formed groups.
Now your 35% playerbase increase is due Neverember Requirement feature. Players where creating tons of alts, lv up and for it gained rewards, Refinament realated stuffs, wards and so one.
In that time ( mod 14) one of my previous guild, where lead who had across multiple accounts over 500 alts. Few accounts he loss during mass banning, yet others where left alone..
Most of what I am seeing here is character balance and has little to do with what module 15 to 16 introduced and took away from the game. From this, I would say you are seeking old character stats and not the removal of actual modules.
IN early mod 16 there where lot of hates, that why devs removed legacy boons legacy feats. Some said it remove variety of possible builds.. Now take legacy feats for Hellbringer warlock, pick any random feat and campaing boon set ups. Even most craizy one. And here is thing I was used that set up too. I did all possible even most unorthodox warlock set ups, both feats/boons and encounter/daily power/class features and etc. IT was not matter what you where using, all was matter how many buff/debufffs group had. In some contnet runs I went without picking any feats/boons/even paragon path, and I was second by dealt dmg in score board.
Other thing, players where picking easiest, highest hitting set ups and thats it,, so most feats where just illusion and more less no one where ussing. So devs removed this illusion and thats it..
As for buff/debuff removal it was needed, game breaking, laging and so one happened due high effect/stat loops which caused high quantity and high size packages sent/receive between server and players client. Have you forgot mass lag spikes??
Let's pretend the developers actually gave a hoot, if they made a Neverwinter Classic game like Blizzard. What would be the perfect restore point for this game? Meaning all the new features would get pulled and old features returned to the game. I will start by saying module 5, this eliminates a lot but the first major screw up was Elemental Evil module 6. This would remove Paladins but bring back the Foundry at it's best. Everything up to Tyranny of Dragons while it was grindy, most players were ok with it. Do you agree? What is the best cut off for a classic version?
While I am not fan of mod 6, the action which devs took was needed.
In mod 5, while it was fun, life steal was breaking game, more less even Wizard could tank bosses, all is matter to proc life steal nonstop. Then artefact weapon set also due stat was starting break game balance,, so devs changed stat formula. Even if its changed a little bit, due buffs using multiplicative formula, all legacy epic dungeons where way too easy for all players. even low IL.
Thats why they had to choose, keep them and try fix them one by one while reading tons of complain comments. Or cut them from game.
Now here is thing lets say they would keep old dungeons,, how long they would be interesting?? After first 30 times you complete x dungeon you are bored and want something new. Thats why devs where introducing new dungeons, rahter bringing old ones with adjustments..
Just look to this Vault of Stars HC mode dungeon, and players hate it.. All wanted something new..
Same thing would be then ( in mod 6).
From all legacy stuffs I would like to have Foundry back and legacy 25 players tiamat, and finally upscaled Stronghold content.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
You think that everything gets boring, and you might not have picked suboptimal builds - but others did? There is a lot of people rerunning CN, FBI, Codg and Tong every day. There is many people willingly rerunning Barovia storyline content. I don't like the idea of tomm - but I am not assuming that thats what everybody else thinks as well. You are jumping to conclusions here.
Neverember Recruitment started with Mod15, not 14.
Neverember Recruitment started with Mod15, not 14.
Must've been at the start of 15 or whenever that happened, I wasn't aware of "mods" at the time. The 2x exp fast tracked me to 70, ruined the leveling experience and overwhelmed with campaigns being told to start with chult.
After quitting I came back in December with my fighter.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited July 2021
The first great fall of NW was mod5. The game became so trivial and easy most of the more invested players just left. The economy was ruined, and all the long term goals, like the weapon sets and T1, T2 unbound armor sets were removed, by making the items dropping left and right in Tiamat. Adding instead bound Artifacts..
Those players never return, and by the time the devs tried to fix the issue, they started too late, and delivered half broken solution, named mod6.
Tiamat was not hard to clear, even on the first week after release groups managed to clear ~3 in one go, finishing and moving instances. Like all group content it was hard for people who didn't communicated. And with the lack of private queues it was especially hard to teach newer people in a controlled manner.
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I have made ~100m since I stopped playing after the combat changes, if I was playing the game, actively, doing dungeon runs, upgrading the best companions of the moment, I would have lost money simply due to drops being negligible, having to learn/carry groups and so on. A game that you make more not playing than playing is a failed game.
It's sad and funny, over all the enchantment "reworks" I've lost millions and millions. Each time all my enchantments, lost value, and I had either to upgrade all over again, or they just lost value, took at months to get all rank10? Now we have rank12..and your rank 10 worth like 8 did before. Got rank 12, now we have rank 15 and your 12 are worthless because we changed the upgrade system. Got Rank 15? Now we have a rework that makes all your BI enchants worthless. Oh you remade all radiants? Lets throw in a ZEN pack that make all the 2mil enchants worth 500k.. Ty and F' you.
It became absurd., and you will find years old arguments right on here on the forums, that it became more economically viable, and you make more progress by not playing the game and wait for the next rework, over those who play the game and upgrade gear.
Now I too listened to history, and made millions more by not playing, unlike all the previous times when I've lost millions by playing the game. And by no means chasing BiS, I've never been BiS, just good enough comfortably to run all content.
once I fully groked how the enchantment thing works on reworks I have never failed to make ad on it. I sell all enchants a month before the change and play with cheap non optimal enchants for a month and then buy back. it only backfired on me once but I came out even on it. I came out roses with the enchant packs too because I saved for a couple months before selling and just decked out all my alts in style.
once upon a time gaming the system was fun, in and of it self. now there is no reason. nothing has value. 15 enchants... who really cares?
You know what I would've preferred to the removal of zones? Introducing a player choice pathway, where decisions a player makes takes them into different zones and a different levelling experience.
E.g. the underdark route: Rothe Valley leading all the way up to Mantol Derith or the villains & cutthroats route; Blacklake leading up to Helm's Hold.
With a bit of work they could've kept all the zones whilst introducing a completely new story based varied levelling experience.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
time to repost that, I guess, just to help analysis of which mods worked in growing the playerbase, which were "waiting mods", and which mods trully failed.
(so far, mod 19 and 20 don't seem to be huge failures, though a steady slight decrease in playerbase can be felt over the course of each, I think I would qualified them more as waiting mods rather than failures).
to me it looks like mod 16 killed the game and it's been slowly dying since then. that's why they keep reinventing the wheel. they're trying to reverse their loss but they're just making it worse every time. steam is also probably showing newer players rather than vets. it would be interesting to see the actual over all numbers.
Based on your above chart the game almost looks like it stopped growing as a game after mod 7.
Up until mod 7 new classes and things were being added, the team was bringing new things to the game.
After mod 7, at least by your chart it mostly looks to be reworks, and improvements or at least changes to things already implemented in the game.
Obviously the various things i noted on the chart can be a bit of a bias, as I show or omit depending on how much importance I value things from my point of view.
Kind of agree with you, but also not. They added quite some content (each mod brought at least one dungeon, skirmish or trial + a new campaign [except mod7 and mod17, suspiciously consecutive to the 2 mods that failed badly]), but there were only few things that felt to be true novelties : the stronghold, the hunt system and maybe more debatable things like the workshop, the wardrobe, master expeditions, the hellpit/nightmare, the avernus car (quite a missed opportunity there to use this in more depth, even if it was only an ability to paint your car as you can chose colors in your wardrobe) and top 100 phases in Avernus. What is sad IMHO, is they had also removed quite too much (old dungeons, leveling skirmishes, the foundry, old sharandar...), and sometimes didn't even bothered saying it is officially gone (like portobello, call to arms, and more recently the tales it seems).
I do think (mmh, more hope than think ^^) the bard will add some refreshing air during a short period of time, at least from a "vet" perspective. Personnally i'm currently holding myself to check the preview and avoiding as much as I can all the comments and talks about the bard so I don't spoil myself, and keep the opportunity to embrace and enjoy this new class on the live server as a true fresh experience.
to me it looks like mod 16 killed the game and it's been slowly dying since then. that's why they keep reinventing the wheel. they're trying to reverse their loss but they're just making it worse every time. steam is also probably showing newer players rather than vets. it would be interesting to see the actual over all numbers.
Yeah that's what those numbers look like to me too. I'd love to see the ones for XBox and Playstation.
Things appeared to recover a little from M17 but not back to pre M16 levels - I see M20 is missing from this chart, my guess is that it'll show even more decline.
I came back from a 2 year break in M19 and I was ok with how things were - M20 hit a few months later and I was definitely unimpressed with the changes, particularly with how it impacted tanks and as I (and others) predicted on the preview forums, the number of players running tanks has decreased in relation to other class types, lengthening wait times for queues.
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Things appeared to recover a little from M17 but not back to pre M16 levels - I see M20 is missing from this chart, my guess is that it'll show even more decline.
Mod20 is the green bars on the right (the legend is a bit messed up as i didn't update the end of mod20). In my opinion, the recovering is mostly due to the "covid lockdown" period rather than the success of module 18. Mod 19 & 20 seem to have been reasonnably good at "players retention" despite the slight decrease.
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a developer point of view of fun is different from player point of view,
> only numbers($$) attract investers, not player hype, players hype is a small addition, we have some neverwinter "whales" that buy the most expensive stuff they add to zen store, multiple buys, and put the possible sales items in ah, so free to play players buy them and then they have their income ad, they dont make ad through zax.
>
> a developer point of view of fun is different from player point of view,
When you make games for reaching certain metrics, you stop making games for people. I think that's something that's been forgotten over the past few years. There seems to be a large disconnect between what players want and enjoy versus what the company wants in terms of "metrics." They really should probably go do some soul searching and rediscover the "people aspect" because metrics numbers don't play games, people do.
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Beyond that, each player likes different styles and genre. If I were making a horror game, it will not appeal to people who want sci-if or combat games. Most players like risk, they like gamble and take a chance. If your game deals with combat, some players will not care for an army of bullet sponges, the direct opposite is also true they don't like to one-shot kill everything either.
We have to remember, he was put on the hotseat for that question, I can look at it with 20/20 hindsight, and tell you my response. Mr. Grant is like most developers, they have lost their inner child, the world has hardened them to facts, numbers, and demographics. When I am bouncing my grandchild on my knee and he asks me, "What makes Christmas fun?" I sure don't want to tell the boy, stuff about 401K plans, lower unemployment rates, resurgence of the economic growth, and discount sales.
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I suppose @hotfrostworm is correct, I don't think I could be snappy with answers. I still don't see fun time sunshine sitting in charge of the game. I would like to have at least heard something along the lines of "people are into different things", or even asked the question, "That depends, what kind of game are we talking about?". To get all bewildered and say I don't know fun is, let's get a focus group together and find out, is not good.
Oh btw, I can't wait until I get a grandson so I can tell him exactly what you said... and I will add, and that is why the Easter Bunny has nothing to do with it.
Just killing time...
One thing which makes happy players is consistency. They want to keep coming back because they have built something they enjoy and are proud of and know what to expect each time they return. Consistency is an important thing. I'm not comparing games because they are so different, but I've been playing an online multiplayer social game with similar themes to Neverwinter (orcs, monsters, mages, rogues, clerics, warriors, guilds, PVP) called Castle Age for so many years I've lost count. It could have been 2009 I started playing but I forget. It wasn't long after that if it was later. It's basically exactly the same as it was when it started, they just slowly add to the content/items and add a few new abilities and introduce the usual events throughout the year. It's an extremely active and busy game even today and guilds are very invested. But the interface has not changed one bit, the way the game works and how combat works has not changed one bit, battles, monsters, guilds, all work the same as they always have, they did re-do the graphics on some of the generals at one point so they look different to how they used to, but really, it's all pretty original. I know when I go there exactly what I need to do and how it works and I would never dream of leaving.
Neverwinter should be able to develop and grow and introduce new content without altering what's already there so much it becomes a new game and pushes people away because that was not what they signed-up for. Players who know what to expect even before they log-on will be happy players who keep coming back again and again, and happy (retained) players are what investors want.
The reason why such big change where made with mod 16 was not cuz staff where bored. It was done cuz game was not OK.
Perhaps time to refresh everyones memories here.
The pre mod 16 where, Brain Dead, buff/debuff creep based gameplay, where dungeons difficulity where measured by speedruning. Boss where very tought, lasting few seconds at best.
Party variety aslo where "great" 1 dps and rest of group buff/debuff feeders, regular party composition x2 DC's, x1 OP as buff providers.
Here I noted someone mentioned that we should get back to Multiplicative dmg formula, what a nonsense.
As example, in mod 10.5 ( Sea of Moving Ice) My warlock had 50k power, in FBI run with not even max out x2 clerics x1 paladin due buff creep I easily hit 190+k power. And I was not even mid tier player. Multiplicative forumula can be used only on few buffs, but with long cool downs. Otherwise there is no way to have any game balance. And thats not only here in NWO in other mmos is same situation. If you have multiplicative formula based bufffs and there are a lot, then you break game..
A big portion of playerbase left in mod 14, cuz lot of players where bored, mod 15 which was aimed for low/mid tier players made even bigger dissapointment among high end players, which caused another big wave of playerbase lose.
And to remind everyone, in that time mod 15 big portion of playerbase begged, I repeat Begged devs to give a challenge.
So you all want it back? Where your presence as player is not even required, and usually gamplay where > log in> ~30 ming gameplay, then go play other mmo.
In mod 10 players where telling that old days where better,, but in old days we had same posts too. Same now,, everyone repeating that old days where better,, yet all forgot all old complain fiestas..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Let's pretend the developers actually gave a hoot, if they made a Neverwinter Classic game like Blizzard. What would be the perfect restore point for this game? Meaning all the new features would get pulled and old features returned to the game. I will start by saying module 5, this eliminates a lot but the first major screw up was Elemental Evil module 6. This would remove Paladins but bring back the Foundry at it's best. Everything up to Tyranny of Dragons while it was grindy, most players were ok with it. Do you agree? What is the best cut off for a classic version?
Just killing time...
To comment on defining fun: People can help make a fun game but I'm pretty sure there are psychological metrics that have been measured in game making of things that engage people and make them stay. It's not all loosey goosey people are LOVEEEEEEEE..
No, this kind of game is all about engaging the OCD in people. That's the compulsive grind. We don't know why we want to grind here but we have shiny things to chase. Character building and PROGRESSION..
but now, there is no real progression. There is no reason to do end game content. nothing to chase anymore and because of scaling there is no reason to build out for end game. enchants are basically worthless. they don't add much to your character and the new gear is boring. Old weapons are better than new weapons but at the end of the day all weapons aren't that different so who cares... to top that all off its now incredibly convoluted on how to actually balance your stats. it was a tiny bit convoluted before but it made sense. Now it's just messy.
Chase items: endorphins are released when we see the shiny things at the end of a dungeon and we see that thing we've always wanted, because shiny. Those endorphins hook you in. I've had times where I was near walking away and got that legendary mount or a super rare drop in a dungeon and was like OMG I'M IN LOVE with this game again.
The problem here is nothing has value anymore. Nothing is really rare. There is nothing worth having or getting a brain buzz over. If that legendary thing drops now, it's ho hum.. another freaking thing. yay...
the market has been thoroughly broken. inflation is run away things that used to be gold standard for trading are worthless etc.
The pace of combat is also very important. The reason people liked speed runs is because fast is fun. Beating at a hp bar for 20 minutes makes you want to take a nap and your hands get carpal tunnel. A few loud voices were heard that hated it, but people did it because they enjoyed it. If people weren't enjoying it people would not be doing it compulsively. Most were not good enough to do those kinds of runs or just didn't care. It was the 2 percent club doing that.
Speed runs aside the pacing was good. team composition changed game play A LOT back then. I personally remember enjoying both premades that were optimal and doing sub optimal runs for challenge. There was more diversity in builds you could do in characters. It was NICE not having the holy trinity for group comp. It was one of the unique things about this game that made it great.
It wasn't bad.
The game was still fine and going strong mod 15. All they needed to do was a tuck here and a nip there. Instead they engaged thermonuclear warfare against their own game.
There are probably a few aspects I'm forgetting. I know the role players have been underserved as well.
So basically, you had all these various aspects before that did give joy to different kind of players. Not everyone was a dungeon chaser, not everyone was a role player, not everyone was trying to become scrooge mcduck or build a mastercrafting empire, not everyone had a second life built around building characters..
but ALL of those things have been basically taken out of the game or ruined in one way or another.
Now, we are getting one of the dungeons back. Woo hoo... [/sarcasm]
We're crossing over with Krynn. The dragons are leaving.
No dungeons. No dragons.
I really do not understand people that think pre Mod 15 game was bad. It wasn't balanced, and it was great fun.
Taking away exp leveling from the game is great, but the fact you hit max level in under 24 hours is a joke. Hitting max level and being given bad information is what ruined the game from me, so with them curating campaigns more I find it a good thing (required IL/ordering).
These devs' mistakes have purely been devaluing player's time/investments and removing content. Whichever 'version' of gear score/character sheet people liked most will be debatable. Sure, there are bugs but those can be fixed within current module if they wanted to, but content gone is always going to be bad.
The reason why Horizontal progression works in games like Guild wars 2, is because "zen" store there isn't selling bis companions, enchants, mounts and so on. You can't have a working store that sells you power, for your power to mean little if anything. For example, we went mod 15 darks being movespeed, then it was removed, now its back as Azures, with their excuses for removing them being completely worthless. People from mod 15-21 means we went from azures in utility, to darks (mod 16), to tacticals (tomm), to darks again (nerf tacticals) then azures again. Each time wiping the price of our stuff and making us change them.
I have made ~100m since I stopped playing after the combat changes, if I was playing the game, actively, doing dungeon runs, upgrading the best companions of the moment, I would have lost money simply due to drops being negligible, having to learn/carry groups and so on. A game that you make more not playing than playing is a failed game.
Let's face it, even if they added a classic version of the game, like most other companies that add classic, we'd still want things added back into the game or improvements which if they can't improve what we have now, do we really think a classic version run by the same company would do better?
the economic dmg that happened from huntgate was inconsequential in comparison to the nuking of the market with the bonding and companion exp exchange. I think what was generated in huntgate moved the zax marginally. but with the bonding/comp exp introduction, it went from basically zero on xbox to a month wait in 12 hours. it's still in place and you can still generate bondings and companion experience treatises. pc went from months out to something nearish to a year.. there is no other word for it than ruinous.
The peak of Neverwinter popilarity where mod 5. The reason is very simple.
We had action combat based gameplay, thought Life steal was only whom where breaking perfect balance.. Low stats, thats mean players skills, team work and experience was center of gameplay not some minimal element.
We had 25 players tiamat( legecay) which where hard to clear, and required team work.
On top we had normal dungeons, and epic ( same dungeons as regular ones just upscaled to epic tier).
And on top we had Foundry.
Now during mod 14 ravenlof I have seen how multiple alliances bigger and smaller ones left game. So to say that it was peak of NWO sounds silly.
I think you are confusing module numbers here? Ravenloft 14 was the population increase of 35%. People were not leaving that I am aware of at that point?
Have you forgot mass ban wave due Barovia Hunt glitch explotation and that after ban, even more players left. Even before that happens I have seen how multiple alliances left game, the ones who already where capable to do end game content all in alliance formed groups.
Now your 35% playerbase increase is due Neverember Requirement feature. Players where creating tons of alts, lv up and for it gained rewards, Refinament realated stuffs, wards and so one.
In that time ( mod 14) one of my previous guild, where lead who had across multiple accounts over 500 alts. Few accounts he loss during mass banning, yet others where left alone..
IN early mod 16 there where lot of hates, that why devs removed legacy boons legacy feats. Some said it remove variety of possible builds..
Now take legacy feats for Hellbringer warlock, pick any random feat and campaing boon set ups. Even most craizy one. And here is thing I was used that set up too. I did all possible even most unorthodox warlock set ups, both feats/boons and encounter/daily power/class features and etc.
IT was not matter what you where using, all was matter how many buff/debufffs group had. In some contnet runs I went without picking any feats/boons/even paragon path, and I was second by dealt dmg in score board.
Other thing, players where picking easiest, highest hitting set ups and thats it,, so most feats where just illusion and more less no one where ussing. So devs removed this illusion and thats it..
As for buff/debuff removal it was needed, game breaking, laging and so one happened due high effect/stat loops which caused high quantity and high size packages sent/receive between server and players client. Have you forgot mass lag spikes??
Let's pretend the developers actually gave a hoot, if they made a Neverwinter Classic game like Blizzard. What would be the perfect restore point for this game? Meaning all the new features would get pulled and old features returned to the game. I will start by saying module 5, this eliminates a lot but the first major screw up was Elemental Evil module 6. This would remove Paladins but bring back the Foundry at it's best. Everything up to Tyranny of Dragons while it was grindy, most players were ok with it. Do you agree? What is the best cut off for a classic version?
While I am not fan of mod 6, the action which devs took was needed.
In mod 5, while it was fun, life steal was breaking game, more less even Wizard could tank bosses, all is matter to proc life steal nonstop.
Then artefact weapon set also due stat was starting break game balance,, so devs changed stat formula. Even if its changed a little bit, due buffs using multiplicative formula, all legacy epic dungeons where way too easy for all players. even low IL.
Thats why they had to choose, keep them and try fix them one by one while reading tons of complain comments. Or cut them from game.
Now here is thing lets say they would keep old dungeons,, how long they would be interesting?? After first 30 times you complete x dungeon you are bored and want something new. Thats why devs where introducing new dungeons, rahter bringing old ones with adjustments..
Just look to this Vault of Stars HC mode dungeon, and players hate it.. All wanted something new..
Same thing would be then ( in mod 6).
From all legacy stuffs I would like to have Foundry back and legacy 25 players tiamat, and finally upscaled Stronghold content.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
There is a lot of people rerunning CN, FBI, Codg and Tong every day. There is many people willingly rerunning Barovia storyline content.
I don't like the idea of tomm - but I am not assuming that thats what everybody else thinks as well. You are jumping to conclusions here.
Neverember Recruitment started with Mod15, not 14.
After quitting I came back in December with my fighter.
Those players never return, and by the time the devs tried to fix the issue, they started too late, and delivered half broken solution, named mod6.
Tiamat was not hard to clear, even on the first week after release groups managed to clear ~3 in one go, finishing and moving instances. Like all group content it was hard for people who didn't communicated. And with the lack of private queues it was especially hard to teach newer people in a controlled manner.
It became absurd., and you will find years old arguments right on here on the forums, that it became more economically viable, and you make more progress by not playing the game and wait for the next rework, over those who play the game and upgrade gear.
Now I too listened to history, and made millions more by not playing, unlike all the previous times when I've lost millions by playing the game. And by no means chasing BiS, I've never been BiS, just good enough comfortably to run all content.
once upon a time gaming the system was fun, in and of it self. now there is no reason. nothing has value. 15 enchants... who really cares?
E.g. the underdark route: Rothe Valley leading all the way up to Mantol Derith
or the villains & cutthroats route; Blacklake leading up to Helm's Hold.
With a bit of work they could've kept all the zones whilst introducing a completely new story based varied levelling experience.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
time to repost that, I guess, just to help analysis of which mods worked in growing the playerbase, which were "waiting mods", and which mods trully failed.
(so far, mod 19 and 20 don't seem to be huge failures, though a steady slight decrease in playerbase can be felt over the course of each, I think I would qualified them more as waiting mods rather than failures).
Up until mod 7 new classes and things were being added, the team was bringing new things to the game.
After mod 7, at least by your chart it mostly looks to be reworks, and improvements or at least changes to things already implemented in the game.
Kind of agree with you, but also not. They added quite some content (each mod brought at least one dungeon, skirmish or trial + a new campaign [except mod7 and mod17, suspiciously consecutive to the 2 mods that failed badly]), but there were only few things that felt to be true novelties : the stronghold, the hunt system and maybe more debatable things like the workshop, the wardrobe, master expeditions, the hellpit/nightmare, the avernus car (quite a missed opportunity there to use this in more depth, even if it was only an ability to paint your car as you can chose colors in your wardrobe) and top 100 phases in Avernus.
What is sad IMHO, is they had also removed quite too much (old dungeons, leveling skirmishes, the foundry, old sharandar...), and sometimes didn't even bothered saying it is officially gone (like portobello, call to arms, and more recently the tales it seems).
I do think (mmh, more hope than think ^^) the bard will add some refreshing air during a short period of time, at least from a "vet" perspective. Personnally i'm currently holding myself to check the preview and avoiding as much as I can all the comments and talks about the bard so I don't spoil myself, and keep the opportunity to embrace and enjoy this new class on the live server as a true fresh experience.
Things appeared to recover a little from M17 but not back to pre M16 levels - I see M20 is missing from this chart, my guess is that it'll show even more decline.
I came back from a 2 year break in M19 and I was ok with how things were - M20 hit a few months later and I was definitely unimpressed with the changes, particularly with how it impacted tanks and as I (and others) predicted on the preview forums, the number of players running tanks has decreased in relation to other class types, lengthening wait times for queues.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
In my opinion, the recovering is mostly due to the "covid lockdown" period rather than the success of module 18. Mod 19 & 20 seem to have been reasonnably good at "players retention" despite the slight decrease.