@thefiresidecat I remeber when you use to PVP consistantly, and use to run PVE content as well. Now talking about the toxic nature of chat, that is just human nature, you get that in all pvp games. There is nothing new there, however I still believe that when the PVE gears became best in slot for PVP, that in itself started a downward spiral, people would hunt for days just to get the manticore main hood because it helped do major damage in PVP as an example. the separation of PVE gear from PVP would start to balance out PVP. That being said, more options of the types of game modes, maps , and yes maybe different abilities for the classes in general would help.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
I have zero interest in spending time on anything in this game that:
a) Doesn't advance my account in some way with a heavy preference for things that are useful to every toon on my account b) I have a reasonable chance of succeeding at right away c) Immerse me further in the world - adventurers fighting adventurers for the slimmest of reasons is not interesting
I used to PVP at the start of the game long ago - it was fun back then. Last time I went in though it was all about providing some other player with a boost to their ego.
I think:
Any system the developers work on should benefit a significant majority of the playerbase
The above doesn't mean PVP has to go because there must be a way to get PVE players either into or caring about PVP
The current system is doesn't seem to mesh well with the wider game. It adds a parallel grind I doubt many people have time for and does nothing to advance the worldstate / narrative
Its not helpful for new players - no one comes to the game from a love of D&D to fight other adventurers for a long grind for most of which they are being sodomized
I suspect there is no profitable way forward for current PVP which suggests to me this problem needs to be approached from a first principles standpoint and the solutions need to be relatively radical.
on that last part we can agree, @leadsaid I was just trying to counter the comment about removing PVP. I have not seen an MMO where there is no pvp aspect
@thefiresidecat I remeber when you use to PVP consistantly, and use to run PVE content as well. Now talking about the toxic nature of chat, that is just human nature, you get that in all pvp games. There is nothing new there, however I still believe that when the PVE gears became best in slot for PVP, that in itself started a downward spiral, people would hunt for days just to get the manticore main hood because it helped do major damage in PVP as an example. the separation of PVE gear from PVP would start to balance out PVP. That being said, more options of the types of game modes, maps , and yes maybe different abilities for the classes in general would help.
you couldn't possibly remember that because I have never pvp'd constantly in this game. i used to do a bit of stronghold siege for stronghold coffer but that was it maybe 20 or 30 times in my entire neverwinter career. other than that mode .. I've probably done maybe 20 total games of pvp (and that's probably an overestimation.) and are you pc or xbox because i've not even done a single pvp game on pc.
I do pvp a few hours a day. but not in this game. it's generally cod blackout. sometimes halo or destiny. I've seen a lot of toxic in various pvp games and honestly it is the worst in this game. I don't know why but somehow this brand of pvp brings out the worst in people.
This idea will probably get the LOLs but on the topic of some people saying PvP is so toxic and the Q not popping... Why not have moderators/devs that PvP in real matches? If someone is spewing garbage from their mouth give them a temporary ban. They do it again, give them a longer ban. A third time make it permanent. People can act like adults. I dont think it would take long before the word gets around and that toxicity was gone. Not to mention the devs would know how classes are performing and new equipment is interacting. Plus, we could constantly have the Q pop
@thefiresidecat I remeber when you use to PVP consistantly, and use to run PVE content as well. Now talking about the toxic nature of chat, that is just human nature, you get that in all pvp games. There is nothing new there, however I still believe that when the PVE gears became best in slot for PVP, that in itself started a downward spiral, people would hunt for days just to get the manticore main hood because it helped do major damage in PVP as an example. the separation of PVE gear from PVP would start to balance out PVP. That being said, more options of the types of game modes, maps , and yes maybe different abilities for the classes in general would help.
you couldn't possibly remember that because I have never pvp'd constantly in this game. i used to do a bit of stronghold siege for stronghold coffer but that was it maybe 20 or 30 times in my entire neverwinter career. other than that mode .. I've probably done maybe 20 total games of pvp (and that's probably an overestimation.) and are you pc or xbox because i've not even done a single pvp game on pc.
I do pvp a few hours a day. but not in this game. it's generally cod blackout. sometimes halo or destiny. I've seen a lot of toxic in various pvp games and honestly it is the worst in this game. I don't know why but somehow this brand of pvp brings out the worst in people.
I gotta ask, you say this community is abnormally toxic compared to other games, but you also said you've only done max 20 or 30 dom/GG PVP matches on neverwinter and max 30 siege matches, probably not a great sample size. Toxicity is a thing, its present in all PVP games but I've also heard people claim the opposite of what you say and that NW is less toxic than the other PVP games they played. Though I do agree that PVP toxicity is at a height right now in NW and that new and casual PVP players haven't had it worse in this game that I can remember.
Its also worth pointing out that the current version of PVP in this game does have some flaws with it that are causing increased player stress and frustration for all PVP demographics, which this thread has brought up and these things can be fixed or the severity of these issues reduced. Some people cope with frustration better than others and improving PVP will reduce some of these sources of stress, leading to less toxicity from the top and happier PVP players in all demographics.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
> @abn173d2003#3683 said: > @froger the only issue with using companions and bondings in pvp is that it gives newer pvp players a false sense of thier toon. once they go into a domination match and realize that thier stats are not right they don't come back and dot ask for help most of the time
This could be solved with good communication about gameplay. They are trying new things around here.
Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
0
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited March 2020
Pvp map suggestions
Rework black ice domination maps to be q able and isolated on the map rotation ...they are 2 good maps to use
how about a spectator mode ?? or tag team cage match etc
a lobby for making a party and map gameplay type rules. Low gravity .. limit deaths/ limit spawn/ etc set match time no drains ..etc
also set Old node Capture/contesting rules or new node Capture/contesting rules they were changed on the pvp community a many mods ago with no warning or feedback from us
a pvp map with more hazards walls moving spike pit opening fire trap moving platforms etc teleporting platforms ... randomized spawn locations ,,) gravity or super trampoline bounce switches that can change a maze map layout ..deathmatch pvp maps low light maps etc
a map slowly filling with lava or water or gas as time runs out and combatants have to climb up to stay out of the hazards
a cage that opens up and a huge monster comes and starts attacking everyone
an invisible wall that slowly pushes camping /afk players out of spawn or teleports them randomly somewhere on the map : d
2
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited March 2020
we need to talk about rewards as well as the penalties to discourage bad pvp behaviour
Need to be able to kick in pvp but limited per day or you get one for free kick vote every X matches say 10 for example so it is not abused ..or no kicking at all..
rewards that are attainable and Unique to 5v5 or solo Q Gg etc . and some that you must have qed for solo and or a mix of events (random pvp Q with auto roll filling and item level matching )....
bonuses for a winning teams with no disconnects or player replacements .. bonuses for taking the solo Q on the first pop (bravery ) penalties to rewards for constantly declining the solo Q (cowardice) or disable declining all together
better rewards for longer matches (in minutes ) less rewards for shorter blowout matches
rewards for having at least 1 kill or 1 death per match and 3 caps ..should help people try way more ...and stop that campers from trying to preserve dying and sabotage their team cause if they dont give it thier all and risk dying once then why should they get good rewards either for their bad selfish playing style behaviours ...this should also help the stigma of people not wanting to target people from their own alliance or guild
players staying at the campfire for more then 40 seconds get randomly ejected or pushed out
add pvp potions and usable potions to the reward drops tables create unique amour kits for pvp only that are craft able or drop as rewards ... the better more unique ones being rarer power points as rewards ... coins as rewards bonus glory lumps as rewards
cursed items that are actually worth using with drawbacks .... rewards token of kicking lol insignia or mount bonuses/ mounts that are unique to pvp rewards that speed up the building of special pvp structures to help pve guilds catch up that complain about pvp structures new pvp rings with a set bonus or revamp the old pvp rings with set bonuses handicaped mode where all your stats are halved yet rewards are doubled : D rewards for Q as 5 different classes (rainbow )
custom overloads that are pvp only as rewards / purchasable with reward currency or rewards that let you unlock the powers on your offhand and main hand without the gamble RNG bs
temp pvp weapon and armour enchants that are rank 12 13 14 with very limited special duration / conditions essentially "rented disposable expirable enchantments"
> @thefiresidecat said: > (Quote) > you couldn't possibly remember that because I have never pvp'd constantly in this game. i used to do a bit of stronghold siege for stronghold coffer but that was it maybe 20 or 30 times in my entire neverwinter career. other than that mode .. I've probably done maybe 20 total games of pvp (and that's probably an overestimation.) and are you pc or xbox because i've not even done a single pvp game on pc. > > > I do pvp a few hours a day. but not in this game. it's generally cod blackout. sometimes halo or destiny. I've seen a lot of toxic in various pvp games and honestly it is the worst in this game. I don't know why but somehow this brand of pvp brings out the worst in people.
...you've only played 20 matches (an overestimate) of domination in your entire neverwinter career - and you feel certain about your assertions? I played 20 games last week. Are there some trolls? Yes, but it's not nearly as toxic as it once was.
PvP players I know have had to come together somewhat as a community so we can all continue to enjoy the game. People I have had a rivalry with for literally years in some cases are now friends I hop into party with.
If your still seeing that much toxicity it may be a reflection of you and not the community?
there doesn't need to be more than 20 times when every single time you go in to see how it is it's exactly the same as the last time. I'm not the only person who has had this experience. go read thru this thread for the people that aren't die hard pvp in this game. it's pretty much a universal sentiment. You also see it spill over into zone chat. neverwinter is small enough that it bleeds into other parts of the game thru rivalries and even people you don't know hate you and go out of their way to make your life miserable because you're in a guild that they perceive as being the enemies territory.
5
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,153Arc User
2.Also will bring PvE players to pvp for the PvE rewards and honor.
Doubtful, since that was what Stronghold Siege was supposed to do and it got altered because they didn't like how the majority were using it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Companions and bondings should be deactivaded as soon as the player is flagged for PVP. Less gear/investment needed to play PvP content = more players playing PvP
I like the idea of being able to use companions and bondings in PVP. I ask why not have both? There could be different open world zones with different PVP rules.
Because existence of companions in open world zones has a lot to do with why icewind dale PVP is pretty much dead except for a small group of trolls. The community there has become reliant on their many overpowered pets, many of the people there don't even know how to build toons for PVP you que for and I regularly saw things like people stacking tons of CC proc pets, broken heals, damage off the charts, ect last time I was there.
Companions are terrible for PVP, they aren't made with PVP in mind, they are balanced for PVE and grossly overpowered in PVP. The last time even just some pets were working in the PVP ques, which wasn't that long ago, it was a disaster, people were constantly healing to max from busted healing pets like bulette pup and pig and the massive hp and stat pool they introduced caused some classes to become overpowered due to benefiting from them more than other classes.
Pets in PVP also add a massive amount to the costs to build a maxed out PVP toon, pets are expensive, even more so if upgrading another set just for PVP.
I still like the idea of companions. I agree the current execution of it is broken. Hell, a lot is broken in PVP. But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be an option.
I also agree the cost would be expensive. But that shouldn’t mean this style of game play shouldn’t be considered. After all, this game exists to make money, and they should.
Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Hey folks! As stated in the stream, we are moving on to the next phase where we'd like everyone to list their top 3 feedback/suggestions! We'll keep this thread open throughout at least tomorrow (March 11)
Intersection between PvP and PvE: PvP Accessibility costs
Feedback Overview Accessing fun in PvP is highly costly in terms of PvE-linked time and resources. As a player who derived the near-entirety of the pleasure in playing NWO from PvP, I find the fixed time-cost investment one needs to sink into PvE, so as to enjoy PvP, exhausting. My 2 PvP oriented characters have been depreciating in value for the last several mods and are increasingly uncompetitive (in the last 6 months I have quit the game). Every hour I need to sink into PvE, I now strictly prefer to spend outside the game. The last thing I want to do coming home from work and logging onto NWO is spend time grinding for the 1 or 2 hours I decide to allocate to the game when I would like to just relax with some PvP. Decouple PvP from PvE: just as PvP is an option for PvE-lovers, make PvE nothing more than an option for PvP-lovers. @rhroudadev#5641 the above also constitutes an answer to the questions in your post.
Feedback Goal (1) Make full character progression possible by playing (1) PvP only; (2) PvE only or (3) a combination of PvP and PvE. The mix is fully up to the player. (2) Give each class PvP-specific powers only. Decouple PvP powers from PvE completely.
Feedback Functionality Many implementation options exist. The one I suggest below is motivated by my belief that if the elargement of the PvP playerbase is the goal, nothing short of a reset is required: Totally separate PvE-items from PvP items. This would mean that enchantments, artifacts, equipment, etc can only be gained and refined in PvP. Replace these PvE items with new PvP-only items that are potentially capped at certain level to control power-creeping. PvP items are unusable in PvE and vice-versa: this will ensure that anyone playing PvP is there for the right reasons. The corollary would be that the whole NWO population is reset to zero for PvP-purposes since no current gear would be useful. This could be a one-off opportunity to entice a broad section of the NWO population to give the totally new game mode a chance. One possibility would be to keep the progression cap quite low at first, to keep item level inequalities low too. Depending on whether the measured population participation is high, a bracket could be inserted at a later point in conjunction with a cap-raise.
Risks & Concerns -The main dev-time cost would be in designing some PvP-specific gear/enchants/artifacts etc. -Maps are there, classes are there. I see this as a one-off chance to both spike interest from the whole community and aleviate concerns about gear-disparities, in the short-run at least. -Careful monitoring would have to follow so as not to repeat mistakes of the past in terms of power creep. -So many times I read “I played PvP in mods 1 through 3”; “the good old days of PvP prior to mod 6” etc. Maybe its time for a big reset! -Careful consideration of “how rewards are won” - you need to allow for the whole distribution of players (in terms of how good they are) have access to items and rewards. Perhaps each team starts out with equal probability of winning, but the randomness is reduced for the team who wins (either as a proportion of the total points gained during the match, or as a fixed probability e.g. if you win the match your probability of winning the best items is increased 50%). Options for including RNG via wins. I don’t think making rewards decisively contingent upon wins is a good idea though. -It will now be much easier to balance the item-side/power-side of things for PvP without interfering with PvE. -We also all get to try out other classes in PvP, which is impossible to do with the current state!
Something small which may or may not help boost the PVP community is adding the ability to challenge other players to a duel on the interact menu, temporarily allowing them to harm each other in the open world, in whichever zone they may be in. Being able to watch fights occur organically, while waiting around in PE for example, may create some additional interest in PVP.
I like this idea in that it might spark curiosity in PvP. Ideally, pets would be disabled.
Feedback Overview Playing support classes in PvP is very boring since mod 16. This did not used to be the case – ally-buffers, enemy-debuffers, crowd-control specialists, etc used to provide a variety of options for intriguing strategy and gameplay. If you cleave PvP from PvE, institute PvP-specific progression and powers, then support classes can be diversified and provide more options. Any changes to their feats and powers would not influence PvE. Ensure that tradeoffs are a key part of the new options: a DPS character should not have enhanced cc-powers or be able to buff allies, for instance.
Feedback Goal Make support classes fun to play again.
Feedback Functionality -Allow for additional PvP-only path trees. Carve out specialisations with respect to buffing, debuffing, healing, crowd-control and make sure there is minimal overlap between all areas. -Pre-mod16 feats and powers can provide some interesting insight into what types of paths can be created. DCs used to be able to heal and provide some buffing or go the “full buff/debuff” path to support their team in strategic ways. This is now gone. Cws and Hrs used to be able to provide immense control on the battlefield while losing out on substantial DPS. In an era where self-healing was off the charts, they also used to be near-impossible to kill – this is much less of an issue now.
Risks & Concerns -The trade-offs between the areas of specialisation need to be thought out carefully.
adjusting current meta (items, tenacity, team comp rules) – fireball310 p1, gweddry p2, trgluestickz p3;
accessibility in some implementation – ramesh84 p1, ninefingers222 p1, gweddry p2;
rewards – trgluestickz p3.
I would also like to fit removing solo (in favor of the original queue or some alternative implementation) in here but it feels like a slightly lower priority.
1. separate pvp and pve entirely. make pvp it's own load out and animal. 2. make premade pvp toons and pvp gear that is equivelent to boons. that you unlock by ranking up. part of pvp being separate from pve is in making ranks uncoupled as well. everyone starts off as level 1 in pvp system and ranks up separately from pve. unlocking gear that takes no inventory spaces. this lowers the bar for any pve person to come in and be at par without strain on the system. as pve people are not looking to be invested in pvp this makes it entry friendly. 3. more variety to pvp.
4
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
1. separate pvp and pve entirely. make pvp it's own load out and animal. 2. make premade pvp toons and pvp gear that is equivelent to boons. that you unlock by ranking up. part of pvp being separate from pve is in making ranks uncoupled as well. everyone starts off as level 1 in pvp system and ranks up separately from pve. unlocking gear that takes no inventory spaces. this lowers the bar for any pve person to come in and be at par without strain on the system. as pve people are not looking to be invested in pvp this makes it entry friendly. 3. more variety to pvp.
watching the cryptic studio stream you would know that your point 1 is predictably not happening so it is essentially a wasted vote for a top 3
I really miss the PVP Event that ran a few years ago for a month, that also included no pre-made teaming, I honestly wish we'd see more of that. Also the PVP event with special currency that gave several NICE items was only ran like 1-2x at most then it was mostly scrapped which was a shame.
Almost the entire Driftwood Tavern stream was a broadcast to say PvP is dying and the reason it is dying is because "we" (the developers) have no idea what pvp is or should be.
I don't even understand why there is a CDP on PvP when today's stream basically stated what they would do and not do. Not even a mention of "we might consider that" or "perhaps we can try that for a short time and see how it works out."
The Dev basically supported toxic play style by giving the example that he was "kicked from a pvp match" because he wasn't good enough.
He doesn't even see the major problem with this and even goes as far as to support that line of thinking. How is a player suppose to get better if they are constantly kicked? And are you even certain the motivation for kicking was based on your performance or something even more broken like they are trying to preserve their win to loss ratio and you were HAMSTER that up by dying to the wrong players?
Today's stream basically solidified for me that pvp is dying, been dying and will continue to die with zero hope of ever recovering. That might sound overly dramatic or even exaggerated, but if you don't believe that, watch the stream.
5
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited March 2020
well at least lets wait until the devs release their "pvp road map" that they should gleam/compile / propose from the second part of this threads "focused top 3 feedback" before passing judgement ...
Top 3 1. Remove all of the PvE and PvP choke points which unbalance both. 2. Add in a mode to PvP that brings in new players where everyone who queues into it is made extremely close to the same abilities and slowly gives rewards to make your toon better in PvP. 3. Leave in old modes for legacy hard core players to still PvP with builds and customization.
FYI: If you don't add in a lower entry level PvP separate from the end game PvP we have then all your doing is: 1. Forcing two groups to queue into a setting where the old players hate when they get a new player in the game since it unbalances the teams. 2. New players just get slaughtered over and over and quit PvP. 3. Leaving as is will certainly leave PvP in the same state as it is at until it is removed from the game.
You have to build entry points into PvP and any situation that tries to just give rewards won't build up a long term player base. The new players will quit after getting the reward when they get it or you will force them to get it through wins which means they will never get the rewards (unless they are made equals of end game players from those rewards). Neither will expand the PvP player pool. The rewards to keep new players would have to be quick enough that players don't get discouraged but then you will bring in jealousy of players who have everything and are upset at how quickly new players get to max rewards and become their equals.
I personally don't play PvP because I want to only play if I am on near equal footing as other players when I start a match (skill vs money). The needed enchants/boons/etc... to be able to do PvP takes too long and makes too much of a difference to to make it worth while for me to play (max should be 3% effectiveness from new person to maxed out player in my opinion at least in the mode that attracts players to PvP).
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
1. separate pvp and pve entirely. make pvp it's own load out and animal. 2. make premade pvp toons and pvp gear that is equivelent to boons. that you unlock by ranking up. part of pvp being separate from pve is in making ranks uncoupled as well. everyone starts off as level 1 in pvp system and ranks up separately from pve. unlocking gear that takes no inventory spaces. this lowers the bar for any pve person to come in and be at par without strain on the system. as pve people are not looking to be invested in pvp this makes it entry friendly. 3. more variety to pvp.
watching the cryptic studio stream you would know that your point 1 is predictably not happening so it is essentially a wasted vote for a top 3
the driftwood tavern presents Pvp CDP
I didn't watch the stream. I'm mostly deaf so those tell me nothing. but they asked for what my top three are. those are they. they want to know how they can get people back in. that's how. if they ignore the people who aren't playing now as to what would bring them back then it's their own failing that pvp is going to remain stagnant. lol. it's all good. no skin off my nose. I'll continue to not play pvp in neverwinter. so will others like me. the ques will remain dead.
(ignoring the current bugs that need to be fixed and crashes that have to be addressed)
1. Bring PvP gear back to the forefront of PvP - either through tenacity reinstatement or generally better stats and bonuses (that potentially increase when flagged for PvP as current ones do).
2. Rewards - seasons are going the right direction, but really rewards is what will bring people in and make them keep trying PvP. Rewards per match need a re-work, as well as being rewarded for playing continuously (the leaderboard decay conversation)
3. New PvP content - whether this is as simple as pulling the black-ice domination maps into the Q, or as labor intensive as creating a PvP event (such as a 3v3v3, king of the hill type game that could be developed from the black ice maps)
Edit: honorable mention - open world PvP duel that can be started similar to opening a trade with someone. Having people randomly have an epic battle in PE could grow more interest - (heck - maybe put a reward in the campaign for in winning X amount of open world duels)
Either remove the solo que or move fowards with two domination ques and update/modify both of them:
Either remove the solo que entirely or rework solo que to be more casuals oriented instead of a frustration-amplifying blend of incompatible competitive and casual features. Also make the regular/premade allowing domination que the endgame oriented que with updates oriented more towards competitive teamplay. This would include giving the solo que and regular/premade que separate leaderboards and the regular/premade que would need an item level requirement.
Update the rewards system with much better rewards that make it so players can actually progress their characters from doing PVP:
My suggestions are introducing repeatable milestone tasks with repeatable rewards and updating the trade of blades vendors with rewards that include providing basic gear essentials new PVPers need to not get crushed into dust.
Glory currency should be the only thing you get for matches you lose, and everything else is either granted through indirect systems (like the milestone tasks suggestion) or only for winning matches (the safest direct match rewards system). Repeatable milestone task rewards should be (and would likely be safe to be) mostly unbound items and actually worth something to players. The stuff in the trade of blades store should be bound to account to prevent botters and moochers.
The milestone tasks themselves should include some tasks that are healer role oriented in addition to the tasks dps roles can do and everybody can do; they also should incentivize people to play in helpful way when possible.
The items in the trade of blades stores should include: -- A basic set of gear you can get for 1 copper, this gear's stats are only active when in PVP -- A BIS set of gear that costs glory, grym coins, and seals of triumph to acquire, this gear should be desirable but shouldn't be a must have. -- Weapon, armor, and stat enchantments that have no stats in PVE but have R13 stats in PVP -- Insignias that have no stats in PVE but have epic or legendary stats in PVP -- At least 1 epic mount you can buy for glory, grym coins, and seals of triumph
Add a decay system to the leaderboard (or leaderboards if moving fowards with two ques):
This will remove the current incentive to play fewer matches in order to get rewarded at all. It also will stop people from parking characters on high ranking parts of the leaderboard for excessively long periods of time without playing much.
From what I heard on stream, there apparently is a decay system in place right now, however, it would appear this system is outdated and it likely was built back when the leaderboard was only wiped once a module. Its also worth pointing out that even when the leaderboard was being wiped once a mod, we still had people parking characters in the high ranking places of the leaderboard for excessively long periods of time; this strategy isn't new. The current decay system is woefully ineffective either way you slice it and needs to be updated.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I haven't read the thread yet (I have skimmed it). Thanks all for taking the time to comment and share your thoughts, ideas and concerns. Now that the CDP CDP thread is closed I will be reading the entire CDP PVP. Upon closure of this CDP (not sure when) Rob and Julia will present their thoughts and summary of the CDP to the leads and then following some discussion I will put a proposal together and post it in the thread.
Comments
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
I have zero interest in spending time on anything in this game that:
a) Doesn't advance my account in some way with a heavy preference for things that are useful to every toon on my account
b) I have a reasonable chance of succeeding at right away
c) Immerse me further in the world - adventurers fighting adventurers for the slimmest of reasons is not interesting
I used to PVP at the start of the game long ago - it was fun back then. Last time I went in though it was all about providing some other player with a boost to their ego.
I think:
- Any system the developers work on should benefit a significant majority of the playerbase
- The above doesn't mean PVP has to go because there must be a way to get PVE players either into or caring about PVP
- The current system is doesn't seem to mesh well with the wider game. It adds a parallel grind I doubt many people have time for and does nothing to advance the worldstate / narrative
- Its not helpful for new players - no one comes to the game from a love of D&D to fight other adventurers for a long grind for most of which they are being sodomized
I suspect there is no profitable way forward for current PVP which suggests to me this problem needs to be approached from a first principles standpoint and the solutions need to be relatively radical.I do pvp a few hours a day. but not in this game. it's generally cod blackout. sometimes halo or destiny. I've seen a lot of toxic in various pvp games and honestly it is the worst in this game. I don't know why but somehow this brand of pvp brings out the worst in people.
Why not have moderators/devs that PvP in real matches? If someone is spewing garbage from their mouth give them a temporary ban. They do it again, give them a longer ban. A third time make it permanent. People can act like adults. I dont think it would take long before the word gets around and that toxicity was gone. Not to mention the devs would know how classes are performing and new equipment is interacting. Plus, we could constantly have the Q pop
Its also worth pointing out that the current version of PVP in this game does have some flaws with it that are causing increased player stress and frustration for all PVP demographics, which this thread has brought up and these things can be fixed or the severity of these issues reduced. Some people cope with frustration better than others and improving PVP will reduce some of these sources of stress, leading to less toxicity from the top and happier PVP players in all demographics.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
> @froger the only issue with using companions and bondings in pvp is that it gives newer pvp players a false sense of thier toon. once they go into a domination match and realize that thier stats are not right they don't come back and dot ask for help most of the time
This could be solved with good communication about gameplay. They are trying new things around here.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
Rework black ice domination maps to be q able and isolated on the map rotation ...they are 2 good maps to use
how about a spectator mode ?? or tag team cage match etc
a lobby for making a party and map gameplay type rules. Low gravity .. limit deaths/ limit spawn/ etc set match time
no drains ..etc
also set Old node Capture/contesting rules or new node Capture/contesting rules
they were changed on the pvp community a many mods ago with no warning or feedback from us
a pvp map with more hazards walls moving spike pit opening fire trap moving platforms etc
teleporting platforms ... randomized spawn locations ,,) gravity or super trampoline bounce
switches that can change a maze map layout ..deathmatch pvp maps low light maps etc
a map slowly filling with lava or water or gas as time runs out and combatants have to climb up
to stay out of the hazards
a cage that opens up and a huge monster comes and starts attacking everyone
an invisible wall that slowly pushes camping /afk players out of spawn or teleports them randomly somewhere on the map : d
Need to be able to kick in pvp but limited per day or you get one for free kick vote every X matches say 10 for example so it is not abused ..or no kicking at all..
rewards that are attainable and Unique to 5v5 or solo Q Gg etc . and some that you must have qed for solo and or a mix of events (random pvp Q with auto roll filling and item level matching )....
bonuses for a winning teams with no disconnects or player replacements ..
bonuses for taking the solo Q on the first pop (bravery )
penalties to rewards for constantly declining the solo Q (cowardice) or disable declining all together
better rewards for longer matches (in minutes ) less rewards for shorter blowout matches
rewards for having at least 1 kill or 1 death per match and 3 caps ..should help people try way more ...and stop that campers from trying to preserve dying and sabotage their team cause if they dont give it thier all and risk dying once then why should they get good rewards either for their bad selfish playing style behaviours ...this should also help the stigma of people not wanting to target people from their own alliance or guild
players staying at the campfire for more then 40 seconds get randomly ejected or pushed out
add pvp potions and usable potions to the reward drops tables
create unique amour kits for pvp only that are craft able or drop as rewards ... the better more unique ones being rarer
power points as rewards ...
coins as rewards
bonus glory lumps as rewards
cursed items that are actually worth using with drawbacks ....
rewards token of kicking lol
insignia or mount bonuses/ mounts that are unique to pvp
rewards that speed up the building of special pvp structures to help pve guilds catch up that complain about pvp structures
new pvp rings with a set bonus or revamp the old pvp rings with set bonuses
handicaped mode where all your stats are halved yet rewards are doubled : D
rewards for Q as 5 different classes (rainbow )
custom overloads that are pvp only as rewards / purchasable with reward currency
or rewards that let you unlock the powers on your offhand and main hand without the gamble RNG bs
temp pvp weapon and armour enchants that are rank 12 13 14 with very limited special duration / conditions
essentially "rented disposable expirable enchantments"
> (Quote)
> you couldn't possibly remember that because I have never pvp'd constantly in this game. i used to do a bit of stronghold siege for stronghold coffer but that was it maybe 20 or 30 times in my entire neverwinter career. other than that mode .. I've probably done maybe 20 total games of pvp (and that's probably an overestimation.) and are you pc or xbox because i've not even done a single pvp game on pc.
>
>
> I do pvp a few hours a day. but not in this game. it's generally cod blackout. sometimes halo or destiny. I've seen a lot of toxic in various pvp games and honestly it is the worst in this game. I don't know why but somehow this brand of pvp brings out the worst in people.
...you've only played 20 matches (an overestimate) of domination in your entire neverwinter career - and you feel certain about your assertions? I played 20 games last week. Are there some trolls? Yes, but it's not nearly as toxic as it once was.
PvP players I know have had to come together somewhat as a community so we can all continue to enjoy the game. People I have had a rivalry with for literally years in some cases are now friends I hop into party with.
If your still seeing that much toxicity it may be a reflection of you and not the community?
I also agree the cost would be expensive. But that shouldn’t mean this style of game play shouldn’t be considered. After all, this game exists to make money, and they should.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
Feedback Overview
Accessing fun in PvP is highly costly in terms of PvE-linked time and resources. As a player who derived the near-entirety of the pleasure in playing NWO from PvP, I find the fixed time-cost investment one needs to sink into PvE, so as to enjoy PvP, exhausting. My 2 PvP oriented characters have been depreciating in value for the last several mods and are increasingly uncompetitive (in the last 6 months I have quit the game). Every hour I need to sink into PvE, I now strictly prefer to spend outside the game. The last thing I want to do coming home from work and logging onto NWO is spend time grinding for the 1 or 2 hours I decide to allocate to the game when I would like to just relax with some PvP.
Decouple PvP from PvE: just as PvP is an option for PvE-lovers, make PvE nothing more than an option for PvP-lovers.
@rhroudadev#5641 the above also constitutes an answer to the questions in your post.
Feedback Goal
(1) Make full character progression possible by playing (1) PvP only; (2) PvE only or (3) a combination of PvP and PvE. The mix is fully up to the player.
(2) Give each class PvP-specific powers only. Decouple PvP powers from PvE completely.
Feedback Functionality
Many implementation options exist. The one I suggest below is motivated by my belief that if the elargement of the PvP playerbase is the goal, nothing short of a reset is required:
Totally separate PvE-items from PvP items. This would mean that enchantments, artifacts, equipment, etc can only be gained and refined in PvP. Replace these PvE items with new PvP-only items that are potentially capped at certain level to control power-creeping. PvP items are unusable in PvE and vice-versa: this will ensure that anyone playing PvP is there for the right reasons. The corollary would be that the whole NWO population is reset to zero for PvP-purposes since no current gear would be useful. This could be a one-off opportunity to entice a broad section of the NWO population to give the totally new game mode a chance. One possibility would be to keep the progression cap quite low at first, to keep item level inequalities low too. Depending on whether the measured population participation is high, a bracket could be inserted at a later point in conjunction with a cap-raise.
Risks & Concerns
-The main dev-time cost would be in designing some PvP-specific gear/enchants/artifacts etc.
-Maps are there, classes are there. I see this as a one-off chance to both spike interest from the whole community and aleviate concerns about gear-disparities, in the short-run at least.
-Careful monitoring would have to follow so as not to repeat mistakes of the past in terms of power creep.
-So many times I read “I played PvP in mods 1 through 3”; “the good old days of PvP prior to mod 6” etc. Maybe its time for a big reset!
-Careful consideration of “how rewards are won” - you need to allow for the whole distribution of players (in terms of how good they are) have access to items and rewards. Perhaps each team starts out with equal probability of winning, but the randomness is reduced for the team who wins (either as a proportion of the total points gained during the match, or as a fixed probability e.g. if you win the match your probability of winning the best items is increased 50%). Options for including RNG via wins. I don’t think making rewards decisively contingent upon wins is a good idea though.
-It will now be much easier to balance the item-side/power-side of things for PvP without interfering with PvE.
-We also all get to try out other classes in PvP, which is impossible to do with the current state!
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
Feedback Overview
Playing support classes in PvP is very boring since mod 16. This did not used to be the case – ally-buffers, enemy-debuffers, crowd-control specialists, etc used to provide a variety of options for intriguing strategy and gameplay. If you cleave PvP from PvE, institute PvP-specific progression and powers, then support classes can be diversified and provide more options. Any changes to their feats and powers would not influence PvE. Ensure that tradeoffs are a key part of the new options: a DPS character should not have enhanced cc-powers or be able to buff allies, for instance.
Feedback Goal
Make support classes fun to play again.
Feedback Functionality
-Allow for additional PvP-only path trees. Carve out specialisations with respect to buffing, debuffing, healing, crowd-control and make sure there is minimal overlap between all areas.
-Pre-mod16 feats and powers can provide some interesting insight into what types of paths can be created. DCs used to be able to heal and provide some buffing or go the “full buff/debuff” path to support their team in strategic ways. This is now gone. Cws and Hrs used to be able to provide immense control on the battlefield while losing out on substantial DPS. In an era where self-healing was off the charts, they also used to be near-impossible to kill – this is much less of an issue now.
Risks & Concerns
-The trade-offs between the areas of specialisation need to be thought out carefully.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
- adjusting current meta (items, tenacity, team comp rules) – fireball310 p1, gweddry p2, trgluestickz p3;
- accessibility in some implementation – ramesh84 p1, ninefingers222 p1, gweddry p2;
- rewards – trgluestickz p3.
I would also like to fit removing solo (in favor of the original queue or some alternative implementation) in here but it feels like a slightly lower priority.1. Separate the PVE gear out of PVP
2. Bring back the tenacity
3. Better reward for matches
2. make premade pvp toons and pvp gear that is equivelent to boons. that you unlock by ranking up. part of pvp being separate from pve is in making ranks uncoupled as well. everyone starts off as level 1 in pvp system and ranks up separately from pve. unlocking gear that takes no inventory spaces. this lowers the bar for any pve person to come in and be at par without strain on the system. as pve people are not looking to be invested in pvp this makes it entry friendly.
3. more variety to pvp.
the driftwood tavern presents Pvp CDP
I don't even understand why there is a CDP on PvP when today's stream basically stated what they would do and not do. Not even a mention of "we might consider that" or "perhaps we can try that for a short time and see how it works out."
The Dev basically supported toxic play style by giving the example that he was "kicked from a pvp match" because he wasn't good enough.
He doesn't even see the major problem with this and even goes as far as to support that line of thinking. How is a player suppose to get better if they are constantly kicked? And are you even certain the motivation for kicking was based on your performance or something even more broken like they are trying to preserve their win to loss ratio and you were HAMSTER that up by dying to the wrong players?
Today's stream basically solidified for me that pvp is dying, been dying and will continue to die with zero hope of ever recovering. That might sound overly dramatic or even exaggerated, but if you don't believe that, watch the stream.
1. Remove all of the PvE and PvP choke points which unbalance both.
2. Add in a mode to PvP that brings in new players where everyone who queues into it is made extremely close to the same abilities and slowly gives rewards to make your toon better in PvP.
3. Leave in old modes for legacy hard core players to still PvP with builds and customization.
FYI: If you don't add in a lower entry level PvP separate from the end game PvP we have then all your doing is:
1. Forcing two groups to queue into a setting where the old players hate when they get a new player in the game since it unbalances the teams.
2. New players just get slaughtered over and over and quit PvP.
3. Leaving as is will certainly leave PvP in the same state as it is at until it is removed from the game.
You have to build entry points into PvP and any situation that tries to just give rewards won't build up a long term player base. The new players will quit after getting the reward when they get it or you will force them to get it through wins which means they will never get the rewards (unless they are made equals of end game players from those rewards). Neither will expand the PvP player pool. The rewards to keep new players would have to be quick enough that players don't get discouraged but then you will bring in jealousy of players who have everything and are upset at how quickly new players get to max rewards and become their equals.
I personally don't play PvP because I want to only play if I am on near equal footing as other players when I start a match (skill vs money). The needed enchants/boons/etc... to be able to do PvP takes too long and makes too much of a difference to to make it worth while for me to play (max should be 3% effectiveness from new person to maxed out player in my opinion at least in the mode that attracts players to PvP).
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
(ignoring the current bugs that need to be fixed and crashes that have to be addressed)
1. Bring PvP gear back to the forefront of PvP - either through tenacity reinstatement or generally better stats and bonuses (that potentially increase when flagged for PvP as current ones do).
2. Rewards - seasons are going the right direction, but really rewards is what will bring people in and make them keep trying PvP. Rewards per match need a re-work, as well as being rewarded for playing continuously (the leaderboard decay conversation)
3. New PvP content - whether this is as simple as pulling the black-ice domination maps into the Q, or as labor intensive as creating a PvP event (such as a 3v3v3, king of the hill type game that could be developed from the black ice maps)
Edit: honorable mention - open world PvP duel that can be started similar to opening a trade with someone. Having people randomly have an epic battle in PE could grow more interest - (heck - maybe put a reward in the campaign for in winning X amount of open world duels)
Thanks again,
K3Gs
1. Better Rewards/PvP-Gear
2. Separate solo & normal domination with their own leaderboards and better rewards for normal domination
3. Nerf critical severity in Pvp.
Either remove the solo que or move fowards with two domination ques and update/modify both of them:
Either remove the solo que entirely or rework solo que to be more casuals oriented instead of a frustration-amplifying blend of incompatible competitive and casual features. Also make the regular/premade allowing domination que the endgame oriented que with updates oriented more towards competitive teamplay. This would include giving the solo que and regular/premade que separate leaderboards and the regular/premade que would need an item level requirement.
Update the rewards system with much better rewards that make it so players can actually progress their characters from doing PVP:
My suggestions are introducing repeatable milestone tasks with repeatable rewards and updating the trade of blades vendors with rewards that include providing basic gear essentials new PVPers need to not get crushed into dust.
Glory currency should be the only thing you get for matches you lose, and everything else is either granted through indirect systems (like the milestone tasks suggestion) or only for winning matches (the safest direct match rewards system). Repeatable milestone task rewards should be (and would likely be safe to be) mostly unbound items and actually worth something to players. The stuff in the trade of blades store should be bound to account to prevent botters and moochers.
The milestone tasks themselves should include some tasks that are healer role oriented in addition to the tasks dps roles can do and everybody can do; they also should incentivize people to play in helpful way when possible.
The items in the trade of blades stores should include:
-- A basic set of gear you can get for 1 copper, this gear's stats are only active when in PVP
-- A BIS set of gear that costs glory, grym coins, and seals of triumph to acquire, this gear should be desirable but shouldn't be a must have.
-- Weapon, armor, and stat enchantments that have no stats in PVE but have R13 stats in PVP
-- Insignias that have no stats in PVE but have epic or legendary stats in PVP
-- At least 1 epic mount you can buy for glory, grym coins, and seals of triumph
Add a decay system to the leaderboard (or leaderboards if moving fowards with two ques):
This will remove the current incentive to play fewer matches in order to get rewarded at all. It also will stop people from parking characters on high ranking parts of the leaderboard for excessively long periods of time without playing much.
From what I heard on stream, there apparently is a decay system in place right now, however, it would appear this system is outdated and it likely was built back when the leaderboard was only wiped once a module. Its also worth pointing out that even when the leaderboard was being wiped once a mod, we still had people parking characters in the high ranking places of the leaderboard for excessively long periods of time; this strategy isn't new. The current decay system is woefully ineffective either way you slice it and needs to be updated.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I haven't read the thread yet (I have skimmed it). Thanks all for taking the time to comment and share your thoughts, ideas and concerns. Now that the CDP CDP thread is closed I will be reading the entire CDP PVP. Upon closure of this CDP (not sure when) Rob and Julia will present their thoughts and summary of the CDP to the leads and then following some discussion I will put a proposal together and post it in the thread.
Chris