If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
It's up to you if you push your stats for the betterment of your team members and higher chance of success in every group you join or not. You ofc free to do the minimal possible, and someone else will pick up the slack (hopefully for you).
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
(This reminds me why I don't PUG)
I find this statement 100% contradictory. You are telling me, that I should as you put it, "push your stats for the betterment of your team" yet shouldn't these players who decide to wear the boots be pushing their incoming healing? Or simply NOT wearing the boots to start with?
So absurd that you insist that I should improve my stats yet there are players who are retarding their stats and expecting other players to make up for it.
No my argument stands..
Lets play a sorting game.
Sort the following groups from the most effective to the least:
1. DPS wearing +5% damage bonus, competent enough to adjust their stats to where they don't die, for most it will be low incoming healing or low negative ~(-5 +5), and competent enough healer that understands that it is in their interest that the whole group function well, so they do try to improve both their gear and skill.
2. DPS not wearing boots, due to some limitation, their skill, or healers skill/gear (this usually comes as a mix of previous too).
3. DPS wearing the boots when their skill / gear and the healers can't compensate.
4. A healer that is petty and will not heal someone with the boots regardless if the DPS can compensate by gear or skill.
Well, to save time I've sorted them.
I'm doing groups 1,2. Pugs doing groups 3. You just stated earlier that you are type 4.
Q.E.D
Team effectiveness is about how the team works overall, not a personal squabble of "This is not my job". Anyone ofc, free to play solo in whatever way to choose.
People cry about how healers no longer can debuff, so how about a feat that reduces outgoing healing by 25% and increases everyone damage by 5%?
The funny thing is, where is the number 5, dps wearing the boots, and doesn't compensate their stats for them and doesn't give a HAMSTER about the impact it causes to the rest of the party and will blame the healer even when its not the healers fault?
I've even seen paladin tank builds wearing those boots. Like their tank build does any damage yet they want to make themselves even more difficult to heal. Where is this option? Number 6.
You still think it's petty? If you think I am being petty, then #3, #5 and #6 are just as petty.
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
It's up to you if you push your stats for the betterment of your team members and higher chance of success in every group you join or not. You ofc free to do the minimal possible, and someone else will pick up the slack (hopefully for you).
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
(This reminds me why I don't PUG)
I find this statement 100% contradictory. You are telling me, that I should as you put it, "push your stats for the betterment of your team" yet shouldn't these players who decide to wear the boots be pushing their incoming healing? Or simply NOT wearing the boots to start with?
So absurd that you insist that I should improve my stats yet there are players who are retarding their stats and expecting other players to make up for it.
No my argument stands..
Lets play a sorting game.
Sort the following groups from the most effective to the least:
1. DPS wearing +5% damage bonus, competent enough to adjust their stats to where they don't die, for most it will be low incoming healing or low negative ~(-5 +5), and competent enough healer that understands that it is in their interest that the whole group function well, so they do try to improve both their gear and skill.
2. DPS not wearing boots, due to some limitation, their skill, or healers skill/gear (this usually comes as a mix of previous too).
3. DPS wearing the boots when their skill / gear and the healers can't compensate.
4. A healer that is petty and will not heal someone with the boots regardless if the DPS can compensate by gear or skill.
Well, to save time I've sorted them.
I'm doing groups 1,2. Pugs doing groups 3. You just stated earlier that you are type 4.
Q.E.D
Team effectiveness is about how the team works overall, not a personal squabble of "This is not my job". Anyone ofc, free to play solo in whatever way to choose.
People cry about how healers no longer can debuff, so how about a feat that reduces outgoing healing by 25% and increases everyone damage by 5%?
The funny thing is, where is the number 5, dps wearing the boots, and doesn't compensate their stats for them and doesn't give a HAMSTER about the impact it causes to the rest of the party and will blame the healer even when its not the healers fault?
I've even seen paladin tank builds wearing those boots. Like their tank build does any damage yet they want to make themselves even more difficult to heal. Where is this option? Number 6.
You still think it's petty? If you think I am being petty, then #3, #5 and #6 are just as petty.
a tank wearing those boots, especially when they do very little dps, is stupid, but thats ok. I think you should give ppl the room to make mistakes. If you are in a party with this tank, and he starts flaming you, any person with a brain will tell him to shut up and get some new boots.
I agree with both sides as far as the boots are concerned. The problem isn't the boots themselves, but the player base as a whole. The average player should've be able to get them, since they shouldn't be wearing them anyway. If you die due to lack of heals, it's usually (not always) your own fault. If you have -(any number)% incoming heals you have no business wearing them. Odds are you were going to die to stupid mistakes anyway, but at least it'll up your chances of survival.
The mistake made with the boots...they should've been a reward in ToMM/Citadel rather than easily obtainable by everyone. That way only the players with the ability to use them most effectively would have them.
I've even heard of tanks using them in REDQ/RTQ....that hurts my brain.
That's the thing I don't like about this. If the healer wears these boots (let's make this example #7) it's up to their judgement if it's enough to heal themselves and stay alive. Items that mess negatively with incoming healing (or theoretically threat other then damage) are directly impacting other players.
Also Paladin and Range classes have no other good options for damage. That's probably another issue and why the adaption of the boots likely would have been similar with it's old equip bonus.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If you think the boots are a choice, then I also have the choice not to heal you as a protest against those boots. If you think that is petty, then its also petty to wear those boots and expect me to push my stats to make up for YOUR choice.
It's up to you if you push your stats for the betterment of your team members and higher chance of success in every group you join or not. You ofc free to do the minimal possible, and someone else will pick up the slack (hopefully for you).
If you are petty enough to not heal someone in advance just for a gear choice, then it is others choice to not run with you.
(This reminds me why I don't PUG)
I find this statement 100% contradictory. You are telling me, that I should as you put it, "push your stats for the betterment of your team" yet shouldn't these players who decide to wear the boots be pushing their incoming healing? Or simply NOT wearing the boots to start with?
So absurd that you insist that I should improve my stats yet there are players who are retarding their stats and expecting other players to make up for it.
No my argument stands..
Lets play a sorting game.
Sort the following groups from the most effective to the least:
1. DPS wearing +5% damage bonus, competent enough to adjust their stats to where they don't die, for most it will be low incoming healing or low negative ~(-5 +5), and competent enough healer that understands that it is in their interest that the whole group function well, so they do try to improve both their gear and skill.
2. DPS not wearing boots, due to some limitation, their skill, or healers skill/gear (this usually comes as a mix of previous too).
3. DPS wearing the boots when their skill / gear and the healers can't compensate.
4. A healer that is petty and will not heal someone with the boots regardless if the DPS can compensate by gear or skill.
Well, to save time I've sorted them.
I'm doing groups 1,2. Pugs doing groups 3. You just stated earlier that you are type 4.
Q.E.D
Team effectiveness is about how the team works overall, not a personal squabble of "This is not my job". Anyone ofc, free to play solo in whatever way to choose.
People cry about how healers no longer can debuff, so how about a feat that reduces outgoing healing by 25% and increases everyone damage by 5%?
The funny thing is, where is the number 5, dps wearing the boots, and doesn't compensate their stats for them and doesn't give a HAMSTER about the impact it causes to the rest of the party and will blame the healer even when its not the healers fault?
I've even seen paladin tank builds wearing those boots. Like their tank build does any damage yet they want to make themselves even more difficult to heal. Where is this option? Number 6.
You still think it's petty? If you think I am being petty, then #3, #5 and #6 are just as petty.
If 3,6 were here in this discussion, you think for a moment I would spare a post for them? I assure you, I spare no posts, and my post count of uselessness can attest to that. BtW, I did mention what I think about players stupidity. Also I would say those are not the same, petty is one thing, stupid is another.
In regards to 5, the question now becomes who needs to compensate. As we talk about compensate we talk about char building and not a specific run, so just swapping out the boots is not the topic. We also discuss general aim, as in what people should build towards. So the question is not who can economically do the change, but who should work towards it.
Lets say I'm a dps with 200k power, lionheart, rank 15s, compy, and all the bling, and I have -7% incoming healing. And we have a healer with 5%-10% outgoing healing,
The DPS can replace a, for the very hypothetical example, the 8mil Compy and rank up some useless in a normal group incoming healing companion. Or we can in general (not a specific run) have expectation from a DC to invest into some crit, power, outgoing healing
Who out of those should "compensate"?
I like how many ask for challenge, more need for their class, team work, more engaging game-play, but at the end it all looks like a case of NIMBY. It's all ends as the investment is of someone else.
Since when it is not part of every member of the team interest, that everyone do their role better? It is suddenly not the healers interest that the DPS does more DPS?
When a healer that CAN improve their char (in all aspects, economical and otherwise) but refuses to do so, just due to the ideology that it's not their job to accommodate a bonus to DPS with decreased healing, it is indeed their fault.
This is not the same as a specific case, or a run where player who just can't afford it, or just needs help because, lets say that even with best gear video game skills is not their top thing (And I see nothing wrong about that). Then it is a compromise per and people can just remove the boots, simple as that.
A tank with 800k HP can say that it is the healers job to heal, and they don't need to compensate with tacticals for healers issues in LOMM, yet somehow most of us having tacticals and expensive companions like the Red dragon Ion stones to help.
A team game is where everyone try to invest into what help the team to reach the end goal the best, and if it means that a healer can heal well enough that a DPS can use boots, then yes, a healer should aim towards that goal.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I agree with both sides as far as the boots are concerned. The problem isn't the boots themselves, but the player base as a whole. The average player should've be able to get them, since they shouldn't be wearing them anyway. If you die due to lack of heals, it's usually (not always) your own fault. If you have -(any number)% incoming heals you have no business wearing them. Odds are you were going to die to stupid mistakes anyway, but at least it'll up your chances of survival.
The mistake made with the boots...they should've been a reward in ToMM/Citadel rather than easily obtainable by everyone. That way only the players with the ability to use them most effectively would have them.
I've even heard of tanks using them in REDQ/RTQ....that hurts my brain.
This is a valid point, but you know the idiom:
"If you make something idiot-proof, someone will just make a better idiot."
There are things that should be minimized, I wouldn't argue, and like you said, limiting the drops to some places would have been better, but as a general item design, there is a limit of how much we need to be paralyzed due to idiots.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Clearly the game needs more items like these, so that players learn how to deal with them. The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
Clearly the game needs more items like these, so that players learn how to deal with them. The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
+1. Cursed items were common in the past. May be not this game or not this generation of players.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Clearly the game needs more items like these, so that players learn how to deal with them. The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
+1. Cursed items were common in the past. May be not this game or not this generation of players.
Even Ultima Online had cursed items that gave you a negative in one stat or skill and a positive in another. UO is considered to me the first MMO. So the concept has been around for a long time.
Clearly the game needs more items like these, so that players learn how to deal with them. The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
i think it's more that people are worried that even if the playerbase was familiar with dealing with these sorts of bonus/curse items... a lot of the playerbase wouldn't make the effort to deal with them properly.
and on that, i can see two perspectives.
1.) a lot of players make bad decisions because they tend to place burdens on others, not on themselves.
2.) there's a behavioural failure amongst more experienced players to *educate* new players.
There is a big difference between placing burdens on others we KNOW and others we pug with.
In general, I try not to succumb to this if I pug/If I take pugs on dungeons (I seldomly RQ) but I think this is true for many people (alright, not everybody, I know there are so many angels here) that they reach out more / don't mind being called out as much if it is alliance/guild/friends. There is the general notion of running RQs as a daily grind step that we "have to do" so the effort in RQs to team up / communicate / play as a team is minimal as long as it isn't a premade guild/alliance RQ imo.
I agree with @some1stolemynickname ... I have no issue with gear like that in any other game simply because there usually is a learning curve with items like that along of valuable items like that being a drop in endgame, and endgame usually reached by catching up with the majority of the game, not by opening some starter chests and following others into a few BHEs.
Clearly the game needs more items like these, so that players learn how to deal with them. The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
Why are you so convinced the playerbase is unfamiliar with this concept? Not only did mod16 include a slew of gear with stat tradeoffs (Gurdunn's Defense, etc), and not only has the game long featured BiS gear that gives bonus damage at the expense of daily damage, but for well over a year we've even had peculiar malus gear like this:
It's become impossible to discuss the virtues of this particular piece without someone grandly proclaiming that the problem, the "only reason" in your words, is that Neverwinter players just don't understand the concept of gear with a benefit and an attached malus. Some people do understand that concept, but also don't like these boots. And until that understanding is respected there'll never be a constructive discussion.
I like the concept of the boots... but the reason this conversation is happening... half (or more) of DPS is wearing them. They are BiS or at least a top-runner. The "fix" is for everyone to cope patiently until they release competing BiS boots.
Boots of the Willed and Exhalted boots (3% AP per kill) were the only Low IL boots of note for DPS. Now that extreme IL boots and 5% DPS boots are out.. those no longer compete.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Clearly the game needs more items like these, so that players learn how to deal with them. The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
Why are you so convinced the playerbase is unfamiliar with this concept? Not only did mod16 include a slew of gear with stat tradeoffs (Gurdunn's Defense, etc), and not only has the game long featured BiS gear that gives bonus damage at the expense of daily damage, but for well over a year we've even had peculiar malus gear like this:
It's become impossible to discuss the virtues of this particular piece without someone grandly proclaiming that the problem, the "only reason" in your words, is that Neverwinter players just don't understand the concept of gear with a benefit and an attached malus. Some people do understand that concept, but also don't like these boots. And until that understanding is respected there'll never be a constructive discussion.
Except your examples of alternate cursed items are not valid for this discussion, because they are not items that are good and hence have no purpose in real gameplay. For an item to be a good cursed item, there needs to be a reason why you would put it on. All of those items you listed are not something you would consider using, they are all basically just bad items, hence they in no way challenged a players perspective and players automatically dismissed them when considering what to use. You would not use Gurdunn's Defense over Enduring boots or boots of the willed, or any of the other decent boots. You would not use that helmet over the damage helmet for underdark. These are non choices, people would not consider making them.
How do you know a cursed item is good? Well, a good way to tell is it causes some controversy. If players are discussing (arguing about an item), the chances are, it does *something* right.
I’m not sure why you are greatly affected if dps blames you(heals) when you’ve done all you can by informing him that the boots he is using along with his skill of playing does not prove to be going well.
Do you feel so attacked when your pride or reputation is being poked at by a possibly incompetent person?
LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO FIGHT ALL THE BATTLES YOU COME ACROSS.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Gurdunn or was it Gurdunk armor is something like +1.5k power -1.5k defense. Basically if you overcap or sacrifice some of your defense you gain power. In absense of Ebony and 3% damage gear this would have been a good item when it comes to choice. I used it on my Paladin for a while, tank still capped, heal squishier but also slightly stronger heals.
How do you know a cursed item is good? Well, a good way to tell is it causes some controversy. If players are discussing (arguing about an item), the chances are, it does *something* right.
The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
1. we're only arguing about these boots because we're ignorant regarding what makes cursed items "good" 2. strong evidence for these boots being "good" is that we're arguing about them
???
Presumably the Crown of Brambles was intended to be good, with higher-than-usual power for its day, though it (obviously) wasn't worth it. But the fact the crown never caused controversy isn't proof of why it's "bad": a self-stun is always going to be less controversial than an incoming healing cost, which can be felt immensely by other players when handled badly.
Obviously the boots are good---overpowered---for their slot. Certainly BiS. But that's demonstrated by simple math, not forum bickering. The controversy has arisen because, for a subset of players, they are frustrating to work with. This touches on all kinds of sensitive issues that defenders of the boots are not especially tactful about engaging with---for example, the impression that the boots are a toy for an imagined "BiS" elite. I don't happen to agree with this, but the vibe is out there, and it has nothing to do whether the boots are good or bad. And arguing that we can run the boots in our content, in our alliances, with our friends only puts fuel on the fire. Again, none of that speaks to the quality of the item, but how clumsily much of this discussion has overlooked the social fracture in the playerbase.
Consider Demogorgon as a slightly oblique analogy: it's the easiest trial---I don't think many would disagree. It's impossible to fail if you're even slightly attentive. But nobody could argue that, when it goes badly, it isn't frustrating: a few players using green tears to flood the arena, Goristro being punted into the black portals, tanks parking Demo right in the well... a bad Demogorgon quickly erupts into zone-wide fury.
IMHO all these topics have spoken to a boilover of player frustration, rather than a ignorance regarding "good" and "bad" tradeoffs (trust me, I'm over here running Life Bind every day). Or to put it more simply: the boots are badly received because the game is ailing, undergeared supports experience that malaise acutely, and players aren't happy. I've given my alliance permission to run them when I'm healing (of course), but I also don't want to distance myself from understanding that POV entirely.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
How do you know a cursed item is good? Well, a good way to tell is it causes some controversy. If players are discussing (arguing about an item), the chances are, it does *something* right.
The only reason a thread exists complaining about this is because the concept is unfamiliar to so many people.
1. we're only arguing about these boots because we're ignorant regarding what makes cursed items "good" 2. strong evidence for these boots being "good" is that we're arguing about them
???
Arguing and complaining are 2 different things. You can complain into thin air and nobody could respond and there would be no argument. You could be in a heated debate about something and there would be no complaining. Those statements are not mutually exclusive. Here, there is both arguing and complaining.
Presumably the Crown of Brambles was intended to be good, with higher-than-usual power for its day, though it (obviously) wasn't worth it. But the fact the crown never caused controversy isn't proof of why it's "bad": a self-stun is always going to be less controversial than an incoming healing cost, which can be felt immensely by other players when handled badly.
Lets say that the crown of brambles caused you do deal double damage after the stun for 10 seconds. People would probably be using it. You would probably also see complaints (and arguments) stemming from this item. And as for those other +power minus defense boots, I do not even consider that to be an item bonus. They could have removed the bonus from the text, implemented it into the base stat distribution and nobody would realize the item had that as a bonus. Anyone who considers that "+stat -stat" bonus to be a bonus in the first place is fooling themselves.
For a bonus to be "interesting" (in my opinion) it needs to do 1 of these 3 things, in addition to being worth putting on:
You need to be able to tell the difference between wearing it and not wearing it without doing maths to check if it works.
It changes a core game mechanic (if you couldn't crit but crit scaled lifesteal chance).
It changes the way you play the game.
You can tell the difference between having the boots on and off, look at how much shielded hp an op gives you, there is a difference. You can also feel it in dungeons, things that would have fully healed you won't anymore. Whilst this is also true for the crown of brambles, the crown isn't worth putting on and so people don't complain about it.
Obviously the boots are good---overpowered---for their slot. Certainly BiS. But that's demonstrated by simple math, not forum bickering. The controversy has arisen because, for a subset of players, they are frustrating to work with. This touches on all kinds of sensitive issues that defenders of the boots are not especially tactful about engaging with---for example, the impression that the boots are a toy for an imagined "BiS" elite. I don't happen to agree with this, but the vibe is out there, and it has nothing to do whether the boots are good or bad. And arguing that we can run the boots in our content, in our alliances, with our friends only puts fuel on the fire. Again, none of that speaks to the quality of the item, but how clumsily much of this discussion has overlooked the social fracture in the playerbase.
Consider Demogorgon as a slightly oblique analogy: it's the easiest trial---I don't think many would disagree. It's impossible to fail if you're even slightly attentive. But nobody could argue that, when it goes badly, it isn't frustrating: a few players using green tears to flood the arena, Goristro being punted into the black portals, tanks parking Demo right in the well... a bad Demogorgon quickly erupts into zone-wide fury.
IMHO all these topics have spoken to a boilover of player frustration, rather than a ignorance regarding "good" and "bad" tradeoffs (trust me, I'm over here running Life Bind every day). Or to put it more simply: the boots are badly received because the game is ailing, undergeared supports experience that malaise acutely, and players aren't happy. I've given my alliance permission to run them when I'm healing (of course), but I also don't want to distance myself from understanding that POV entirely.
The controversy has arisen because apparently its too hard to ask people to take off their boots and people's ego's are so fragile that when someone blames them for not healing enough, even though they can very easily point towards the other person as the source of the problem, they instead start a thread complaining on the forums. That right there is a perception problem. Here, an interesting article (on something else) which happens to mention something similar, where it talks about players complaining about a specific hero in another game being overpowered despite the fact that the stats said it was not. The problem was not the hero, the problem was players were bad at playing the game. After players got better, the complaining stopped.
Similar issue here. The item's design is fine, the problem is player perception. Leave the item (well actually, raise the penalty higher imo, its too good as is) and wait for player perception to change. The only solution to that is time.
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,423Arc User
edited February 2020
The healer can easily point out: please check your incoming healing bonus. Is it negative? The issue is not the boot. It is their negative incoming healing bonus which (in theory) can be obtained from other sources too. "Fix your negative incoming healing bonus. No, you don't have to take off your boot."
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"Fix your negative incoming healing bonus. No, you don't have to take off your boot."
"But what about my Dank Enchantments Rank 15 that give me +100 to all stats and epeen level! You're telling me I should downgrade to filthy 5x Tactical Rank 8 enchants for 5000 inflated PC AD that is probably less expensive on consoles? Even if I could, the Rank 8 Tacticals would only offset the incoming healing penalty to 14.5%, which 'totally' doesn't help at all."
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,423Arc User
"But what about my Dank Enchantments Rank 15 that give me +100 to all stats and epeen level! You're telling me I should downgrade to filthy 5x Tactical Rank 8 enchants for 5000 inflated PC AD that is probably less expensive on consoles? Even if I could, the Rank 8 Tacticals would only offset the incoming healing penalty to 14.5%, which 'totally' doesn't help at all."
I don't know. I only use 2 rank 10 tacticals and the guild boon (used to be defense) to lower that to -1.1%. I probably will raise my tactical higher later.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
"But what about my Dank Enchantments Rank 15 that give me +100 to all stats and epeen level! You're telling me I should downgrade to filthy 5x Tactical Rank 8 enchants for 5000 inflated PC AD that is probably less expensive on consoles? Even if I could, the Rank 8 Tacticals would only offset the incoming healing penalty to 14.5%, which 'totally' doesn't help at all."
I don't know. I only use 2 rank 10 tacticals and the guild boon (used to be defense) to lower that to -1.1%. I probably will raise my tactical higher later.
I was making fun of all the people that have an item that lowers their incoming healing, don't bother trying to work around the penalty with cheap Tacticals (even if 5x Rank 8s "only" lowers the penalty by 11.5%), then qq about not getting healed enough when they clearly took an item that practically states "you get healed for less you idiot".
Now, if they didn't notice the incoming healing penalty stated in the description, that's a reading comprehension error on the player's part, not a fault of the item design.
Comments
I've even seen paladin tank builds wearing those boots. Like their tank build does any damage yet they want to make themselves even more difficult to heal. Where is this option? Number 6.
You still think it's petty? If you think I am being petty, then #3, #5 and #6 are just as petty.
The mistake made with the boots...they should've been a reward in ToMM/Citadel rather than easily obtainable by everyone. That way only the players with the ability to use them most effectively would have them.
I've even heard of tanks using them in REDQ/RTQ....that hurts my brain.
Also Paladin and Range classes have no other good options for damage. That's probably another issue and why the adaption of the boots likely would have been similar with it's old equip bonus.
Also I would say those are not the same, petty is one thing, stupid is another.
In regards to 5, the question now becomes who needs to compensate.
As we talk about compensate we talk about char building and not a specific run,
so just swapping out the boots is not the topic. We also discuss general aim, as in what people should build towards. So the question is not who can economically do the change, but who should work towards it.
Lets say I'm a dps with 200k power, lionheart, rank 15s, compy, and all the bling, and I have -7% incoming healing.
And we have a healer with 5%-10% outgoing healing,
The DPS can replace a, for the very hypothetical example, the 8mil Compy and rank up some useless in a normal group incoming healing companion.
Or we can in general (not a specific run) have expectation from a DC to invest into some crit, power, outgoing healing
Who out of those should "compensate"?
I like how many ask for challenge, more need for their class, team work, more engaging game-play, but at the end it all looks like a case of NIMBY. It's all ends as the investment is of someone else.
Since when it is not part of every member of the team interest, that everyone do their role better? It is suddenly not the healers
interest that the DPS does more DPS?
When a healer that CAN improve their char (in all aspects, economical and otherwise) but refuses to do so, just due to the ideology that it's not their job to accommodate a bonus to DPS with decreased healing, it is indeed their fault.
This is not the same as a specific case, or a run where player who just can't afford it, or just needs help because, lets say that even with best gear video game skills is not their top thing (And I see nothing wrong about that). Then it is a compromise per and people can just remove the boots, simple as that.
A tank with 800k HP can say that it is the healers job to heal, and they don't need to compensate with tacticals for healers issues in LOMM, yet somehow most of us having tacticals and expensive companions like the Red dragon Ion stones to help.
A team game is where everyone try to invest into what help the team to reach the end goal the best, and if it means that a healer can heal well enough that a DPS can use boots, then yes, a healer should aim towards that goal.
"If you make something idiot-proof, someone will just make a better idiot."
There are things that should be minimized, I wouldn't argue, and like you said, limiting the drops to some places would have been better, but as a general item design, there is a limit of how much we need to be paralyzed due to idiots.
In general, I try not to succumb to this if I pug/If I take pugs on dungeons (I seldomly RQ) but I think this is true for many people (alright, not everybody, I know there are so many angels here) that they reach out more / don't mind being called out as much if it is alliance/guild/friends.
There is the general notion of running RQs as a daily grind step that we "have to do" so the effort in RQs to team up / communicate / play as a team is minimal as long as it isn't a premade guild/alliance RQ imo.
I agree with @some1stolemynickname ... I have no issue with gear like that in any other game simply because there usually is a learning curve with items like that along of valuable items like that being a drop in endgame, and endgame usually reached by catching up with the majority of the game, not by opening some starter chests and following others into a few BHEs.
It's become impossible to discuss the virtues of this particular piece without someone grandly proclaiming that the problem, the "only reason" in your words, is that Neverwinter players just don't understand the concept of gear with a benefit and an attached malus. Some people do understand that concept, but also don't like these boots. And until that understanding is respected there'll never be a constructive discussion.
Boots of the Willed and Exhalted boots (3% AP per kill) were the only Low IL boots of note for DPS. Now that extreme IL boots and 5% DPS boots are out.. those no longer compete.
How do you know a cursed item is good? Well, a good way to tell is it causes some controversy. If players are discussing (arguing about an item), the chances are, it does *something* right.
Therefore, by logic of Sharp, they are good items and do something right for purposes of cursed items.
Problem solved.
Do you feel so attacked when your pride or reputation is being poked at by a possibly incompetent person?
LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO FIGHT ALL THE BATTLES YOU COME ACROSS.
2. strong evidence for these boots being "good" is that we're arguing about them
???
Presumably the Crown of Brambles was intended to be good, with higher-than-usual power for its day, though it (obviously) wasn't worth it. But the fact the crown never caused controversy isn't proof of why it's "bad": a self-stun is always going to be less controversial than an incoming healing cost, which can be felt immensely by other players when handled badly.
Obviously the boots are good---overpowered---for their slot. Certainly BiS. But that's demonstrated by simple math, not forum bickering. The controversy has arisen because, for a subset of players, they are frustrating to work with. This touches on all kinds of sensitive issues that defenders of the boots are not especially tactful about engaging with---for example, the impression that the boots are a toy for an imagined "BiS" elite. I don't happen to agree with this, but the vibe is out there, and it has nothing to do whether the boots are good or bad. And arguing that we can run the boots in our content, in our alliances, with our friends only puts fuel on the fire. Again, none of that speaks to the quality of the item, but how clumsily much of this discussion has overlooked the social fracture in the playerbase.
Consider Demogorgon as a slightly oblique analogy: it's the easiest trial---I don't think many would disagree. It's impossible to fail if you're even slightly attentive. But nobody could argue that, when it goes badly, it isn't frustrating: a few players using green tears to flood the arena, Goristro being punted into the black portals, tanks parking Demo right in the well... a bad Demogorgon quickly erupts into zone-wide fury.
IMHO all these topics have spoken to a boilover of player frustration, rather than a ignorance regarding "good" and "bad" tradeoffs (trust me, I'm over here running Life Bind every day). Or to put it more simply: the boots are badly received because the game is ailing, undergeared supports experience that malaise acutely, and players aren't happy. I've given my alliance permission to run them when I'm healing (of course), but I also don't want to distance myself from understanding that POV entirely.
For a bonus to be "interesting" (in my opinion) it needs to do 1 of these 3 things, in addition to being worth putting on:
- You need to be able to tell the difference between wearing it and not wearing it without doing maths to check if it works.
- It changes a core game mechanic (if you couldn't crit but crit scaled lifesteal chance).
- It changes the way you play the game.
You can tell the difference between having the boots on and off, look at how much shielded hp an op gives you, there is a difference. You can also feel it in dungeons, things that would have fully healed you won't anymore. Whilst this is also true for the crown of brambles, the crown isn't worth putting on and so people don't complain about it. The controversy has arisen because apparently its too hard to ask people to take off their boots and people's ego's are so fragile that when someone blames them for not healing enough, even though they can very easily point towards the other person as the source of the problem, they instead start a thread complaining on the forums. That right there is a perception problem. Here, an interesting article (on something else) which happens to mention something similar, where it talks about players complaining about a specific hero in another game being overpowered despite the fact that the stats said it was not. The problem was not the hero, the problem was players were bad at playing the game. After players got better, the complaining stopped.Similar issue here. The item's design is fine, the problem is player perception. Leave the item (well actually, raise the penalty higher imo, its too good as is) and wait for player perception to change. The only solution to that is time.
It's not like you don't already write entire essays to cover the many possibilities.
You're telling me I should downgrade to filthy 5x Tactical Rank 8 enchants for 5000 inflated PC AD that is probably less expensive on consoles?
Even if I could, the Rank 8 Tacticals would only offset the incoming healing penalty to 14.5%, which 'totally' doesn't help at all."
Now, if they didn't notice the incoming healing penalty stated in the description, that's a reading comprehension error on the player's part, not a fault of the item design.