OFFICIAL M17: Tower of the Mad Mage Feedback

trgluestickz

asterdahl said:

thefabricant said:

Loot: @asterdahl
I get that you do not want the weapons to be sold on the auction house, but I feel that at the very least, all the rings up to +4 should be sell able on the auction house with +5 remaining the illusive, hard to get item that is farmed for. This is good for multiple reasons:

1) AD sink. Selling +4 rings drains 10% of their sale value from the auction house.
2) Incentive to continue running the trial for a long period of time. There are very few people who will be able to initially complete the trial. To my knowledge, on preview, my group is the only one which is currently successful at that. Out of that list, there are even fewer who would continue to farm for the +5 rings. Giving us something to do with the excess rings we don't want is some form of incentive.
3) Getting a high ranking ring of a type you do not need, which is good for someone else is frustrating. There is a great video by the developers of path of exile on trade and 1 of the things they comment on is that having a super rare and hard to get item is cool, but part of the bragging rights of having the item comes from the ability to trade it.
4) Incentive to players who have not already unlocked it, to work towards unlocking it as an alternative way of making currency.
5) This isn't something that is going to be, "on farm" for a while. Groups will be trying it and failing it for a long time and being able to complete it, proves that you don't "need" the drops anyhow.
6) Once people have their weapons, there is little incentive to keep running it if it is hard to find people who want to run it. The rings would keep people running it and incentivize them to teach new players how to do the dungeon as they won't always have all the people online they need, instead of just quitting running it entirely.

If you are unwilling to do that, in my opinion then no ring lower than +4 should drop and +1, +2 and +3 should be removed from the drop table. Having rings that serve no purpose to you drop which are bound or have no value is quite frankly insulting, considering the amount of effort and coordination it takes to be able to complete this trial.

We had actually been discussing what to do with these rings internally. Those rings were actually originally made for a totally different piece of more casual content that you'd be able to do much more easily and they were meant to be a reason to keep coming back. That being said, we ended up moving some rewards around and these got moved onto the trial.

We re-examined them and the changes we landed on for live will be the following: the 3 lower ranks of the rings will remain bind on pickup and will not be rewarded in the trial, they'll be rewarded in other more casual content. The two highest rank rings, the 990s and 1010s will drop from the chests in the trial and be bind on equip. Currently, the rings have a chance to replace the random salvage equipment, but they will now have an independent chance of dropping, which will be higher than their chance to replace salvageable gear used to be.

In short, you'll now be able to earn the 990 and 1010 rings from the trial final chests, and sell them or wear them as you see fit.

I was concerned that the trial wouldn't have good enough rewards to keep players interested in running it often, which would have been sad considering how good this trial is. I was also concerned about how low the odds of getting the ring you want would be since they are gated behind a difficult hour long trial and there are so many different ones.

I would like to thank you for this change to ring drops from TOMM, I think will be very well received and would resolve both of my above concerns.

If this isn't already in the loot table for TOMM, I would suggest also offering a good chance at some other unbound goodies that retain value even after better rings get released. Such as enchanting stones/marks of potency, purple mounts, purple companions, ect.

gonzakotwi

asterdahl said:

We plan for the Lionheart weapons to remain best in slot for the foreseeable future. While we will certainly eventually be offering other weapons at their item level, we plan to ensure Lionheart remain superior until such time as a new challenge is added with comparable difficulty with new excellent equipment to earn.

Well, your (devs) definition of bis seems to be different than mine. I have 2 tanks and a warlock, due to stamina consumption that weapon would be a self nerf, plus the stats are not much different than the ones I have (about 2% more damage, nerfed by using shift).

Regarding tomm, I haven't tried it because i don't like spoiling myself from new content, but if it is hard but doable as stated here, please leave it as it is. It would be a meta for ppl to get good and optimize their toons.

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mentinmindmaker

pariswinters#7118 said:

poisd2strike#7598 said:

asterdahl said:

thefabricant said:

Loot: @asterdahl
I get that you do not want the weapons to be sold on the auction house, but I feel that at the very least, all the rings up to +4 should be sell able on the auction house with +5 remaining the illusive, hard to get item that is farmed for. This is good for multiple reasons:

1) AD sink. Selling +4 rings drains 10% of their sale value from the auction house.
2) Incentive to continue running the trial for a long period of time. There are very few people who will be able to initially complete the trial. To my knowledge, on preview, my group is the only one which is currently successful at that. Out of that list, there are even fewer who would continue to farm for the +5 rings. Giving us something to do with the excess rings we don't want is some form of incentive.
3) Getting a high ranking ring of a type you do not need, which is good for someone else is frustrating. There is a great video by the developers of path of exile on trade and 1 of the things they comment on is that having a super rare and hard to get item is cool, but part of the bragging rights of having the item comes from the ability to trade it.
4) Incentive to players who have not already unlocked it, to work towards unlocking it as an alternative way of making currency.
5) This isn't something that is going to be, "on farm" for a while. Groups will be trying it and failing it for a long time and being able to complete it, proves that you don't "need" the drops anyhow.
6) Once people have their weapons, there is little incentive to keep running it if it is hard to find people who want to run it. The rings would keep people running it and incentivize them to teach new players how to do the dungeon as they won't always have all the people online they need, instead of just quitting running it entirely.

If you are unwilling to do that, in my opinion then no ring lower than +4 should drop and +1, +2 and +3 should be removed from the drop table. Having rings that serve no purpose to you drop which are bound or have no value is quite frankly insulting, considering the amount of effort and coordination it takes to be able to complete this trial.

We had actually been discussing what to do with these rings internally. Those rings were actually originally made for a totally different piece of more casual content that you'd be able to do much more easily and they were meant to be a reason to keep coming back. That being said, we ended up moving some rewards around and these got moved onto the trial.

We re-examined them and the changes we landed on for live will be the following: the 3 lower ranks of the rings will remain bind on pickup and will not be rewarded in the trial, they'll be rewarded in other more casual content. The two highest rank rings, the 990s and 1010s will drop from the chests in the trial and be bind on equip. Currently, the rings have a chance to replace the random salvage equipment, but they will now have an independent chance of dropping, which will be higher than their chance to replace salvageable gear used to be.

In short, you'll now be able to earn the 990 and 1010 rings from the trial final chests, and sell them or wear them as you see fit.

@asterdahl I would like some clarification please. You stated that originally the new rings were going to be a possible reward for more casual content, that players would presumably run repeatedly. The rings were then moved to ToMM. Are you saying that the 990 and 1010 versions of those rings can be traded with other players or sold on the Auction House for AD ? If so, that is a terrible idea. The cost of those rings will be exorbitant on the AH, depending upon the bonus. This is made even worse by the fact that ToMM is geared toward a ridiculously small percentage of the playerbase and those rings were originally going to be made part of content that a much larger majority of the playerbase would have been able to complete. Granted, RNG is still RNG and numerous attempts would have been needed to acquire one or more of those 990 or 1010 rings.

first +5 rings on the AH will be 20 million AD or more, and people will buy them

And those few being able to run ToMM will get super-rich super-quick

tom

I support the ring change 100%
This game needs more unbound loot and thats great.
While we are add it, can we also make pet gear from MEs unbound? With a limitation of 3x per day ppl can get shafted by rng for the hole module, +it would increase the replayabilty by alot

arcanjo86

@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

adinosii

arcanjo86 said:

@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account

I totally, completely disagree. In fact, I would love to see almost all high-end dungeon drops unbound. More unbound loot means more player-to-player trading, which would be a very good AD sink, because of the 10% AH cut.

This would also encourage people to improve their characters to the point where they can handle the toughest content, and it keeps players motivated to play.

I am fine with drops from easier content being bound - basically, if a bot can candle it easily, leave the rewards bound to account. Quest rewards should be BtC.

adinosii

asterdahl said:

The set bonus for the Lionheart weapons was actually a typo, the effect that occurs when your stamina is empty is -5% damage taken, not dealt. I'd like to apologize for the confusion in regards to this effect. To clarify, those effects are both on a ramp, so at 100% stamina you have +5% damage dealt, at 0% stamina, you have -5% damage taken. At 50% stamina you have +2.5% damage dealt and -2.5% damage taken.

Now, that makes sense. I was really struggling to understand how the set was supposed to be "BiS" with the set bonus as it looked on Preview originally.

tom

arcanjo86 said:

@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.

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arcanjo86

adinosii said:

arcanjo86 said:

@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account

I totally, completely disagree. In fact, I would love to see almost all high-end dungeon drops unbound. More unbound loot means more player-to-player trading, which would be a very good AD sink, because of the 10% AH cut.

This would also encourage people to improve their characters to the point where they can handle the toughest content, and it keeps players motivated to play.

I am fine with drops from easier content being bound - basically, if a bot can candle it easily, leave the rewards bound to account. Quest rewards should be BtC.

if you want to get 990 and 1010 rings you need to run the trial and not pay up for the rings, this is a game to play not a jewelry shop to buy rings.

tom

arcanjo86 said:

adinosii said:

arcanjo86 said:

@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account

I totally, completely disagree. In fact, I would love to see almost all high-end dungeon drops unbound. More unbound loot means more player-to-player trading, which would be a very good AD sink, because of the 10% AH cut.

This would also encourage people to improve their characters to the point where they can handle the toughest content, and it keeps players motivated to play.

I am fine with drops from easier content being bound - basically, if a bot can candle it easily, leave the rewards bound to account. Quest rewards should be BtC.

if you want to get 990 and 1010 rings you need to run the trial and not pay up for the rings, this is a game to play not a jewelry shop to buy rings.

thats not a valid argument, u could say this about anything that exists in this game. I hope u arent saying what u are saying beacuse of envy.

jules

arcanjo86 said:

adinosii said:

arcanjo86 said:

@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account

I totally, completely disagree. In fact, I would love to see almost all high-end dungeon drops unbound. More unbound loot means more player-to-player trading, which would be a very good AD sink, because of the 10% AH cut.

This would also encourage people to improve their characters to the point where they can handle the toughest content, and it keeps players motivated to play.

I am fine with drops from easier content being bound - basically, if a bot can candle it easily, leave the rewards bound to account. Quest rewards should be BtC.

if you want to get 990 and 1010 rings you need to run the trial and not pay up for the rings, this is a game to play not a jewelry shop to buy rings.

Or, you could see it as a way to reward people putting a lot of time and nerves on running that trial.
I mean, its not like new players will be able to afford them, and if they can, well, then they will be the reason the ZAX backlog is low.

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jules

pariswinters#7118 said:

those able to run it already are

And that doesn't really matter imo. People like to play with the economy. I know a lot of people that just... like their AD stack. They are not waiting for tomm, but still make a lot of money.

If thats what they like to do ingame, why does that matter?
The game is providing many ways to make quite some AD / Zen without running endgame content, I think it depends on what you really want to do.
I don't see myself running tomm anytime soon. But I don't mind running 50 DR keys a day on 2x and equally "boring" stuff.

Perhaps it got to do with the rings being some sort of way to demonstrate "look I completed tomm!!"
But that's like having the M15 MW stuff bound to account just so you could show "look I unlocked all that stuff! look how much it took me to have this!"
You invested a lot of time to get to that level, why not make some AD with it.
A bit chunk of the M16 discussion were the poor rewards compared to how much longer/more effort some content took all of a sudden, compared to before-M16. Now theres rewards ... happy time.

asterdahl

To clarify as some questions came up about the rings, the 3 ranks of ring lower than 990 will be available in more casual content and remain bind on pickup. Only the 990s and 1010s will be BoE. I understand that this is always a touchy subject with many in favor and many opposed (bind on equip loot in difficult content.)

That being said, the weapons will remain bind to account on pickup, and so there is still plenty of reason to run the trial yourself, as the weapons serve as a prestigious and powerful upgrade.

quickfoot

I think the decision to make the +4/5 rings unbound is a good one. Will the price be ridiculously high at first? Sure, but then they will drop.

One thing people always seem to want back in the PVE department, is unbound loot they can sell or trade. They always talk about how people used to be able to farm t2 and t3 content to sell the gear on the ah and that's the "heyday" of PVE to many people.

asterdahl

quickfoot#7851 said:

I think the decision to make the +4/5 rings unbound is a good one. Will the price be ridiculously high at first? Sure, but then they will drop.

One thing people always seem to want back in the PVE department, is unbound loot they can sell or trade. They always talk about how people used to be able to farm t2 and t3 content to sell the gear on the ah and that's the "heyday" of PVE to many people.

Just to make our position clear, as I've talked some about that time period in the past—but we absolutely do not intend to return to a point where whole sets of BoE armor are available in content. Although a handful of players made tidy profits right when that content launched, the value of those armor sets quickly hit a floor and you could then spend a few AD on the auction house to be best in slot.

That's not a world we want to return to, we'd like to keep the primary armor slots and weapons especially as something to be earned. We think there's space for accessory slot items to be sold on occasion. With the trial specifically, because of the difficulty, they should maintain their value for some time.

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micky1p00

From game release (mod 0) to 4.5 (tiamat) all the sought after armor sets (Avatar of War, High Vizier, High Prophet, Swashbuckler) maintained value of about 800k-1mil AD per piece. And AD was worth much more back then.

burnthedead

Legendary rings crafted from tier "6" recipes, make crafting viable again!

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adinosii

OK, something I am slightly confused about, but I am sure someone has tested it and can answer. We have items like this...


...with a bonus to ranged attacks. We have similar items with a bonus to melee attacks.

However, where do the magic attacks fit in?

Do Clerics, Wizards and Warlocks benefit from either of those rings or not?

• If they do not benefit, then why do we not have a third ring that gives a bonus to magic attacks?
  
• If they do benefit, do all damaging powers of those classes count as "ranged" attacks?
  

Surely, someone must have tested this....Sharpedge?

thefabricant

Imagine believing you shouldn't be rewarded for putting effort into

adinosii said:

OK, something I am slightly confused about, but I am sure someone has tested it and can answer. We have items like this...


...with a bonus to ranged attacks. We have similar items with a bonus to melee attacks.

However, where do the magic attacks fit in?

Do Clerics, Wizards and Warlocks benefit from either of those rings or not?

• If they do not benefit, then why do we not have a third ring that gives a bonus to magic attacks?
  
• If they do benefit, do all damaging powers of those classes count as "ranged" attacks?
  

Surely, someone must have tested this....Sharpedge?

Conduit of Ice.
Disintegrate.
Ray of Enfeeblement.
Chill Strike.
Repel.
Icy Rays.
Fireball.
Entangling Force.
Ray of Frost.
Magic Missiles.
Chilling Cloud.
Ice Knife.
Arcane Bolt.
Count as ranged attacks. The rest are neither melee nor ranged. I don't know about other classes, you would need to check.

adinosii

thefabricant said:

Count as ranged attacks. The rest are neither melee nor ranged. I don't know about other classes, you would need to check.

Right...thanks.

ecrana

Amazing. Just ahhhhhhhhmazing!

For years the community complains that everything is BtC, BtA, BoP and then the devs turn around and make a few rings BoE and people complain. Why? Because you can't do the trial yourself?

This is what people call incentive.
It's incentive for the elites to continue to run the trial when they've smashed it to pieces.
It's incentive for non-elite players to continue to improve so they too can get in on some of this AH action.
It's incentive for lazy players to just spend AD on the rings they want (what's that? there's an AH fee to remove AD too! dear lords no a small AD sink)

Will the first rings cost a fortune? Of friggin course they will. Did the first Orcus shards cost an arm and a leg? Yes. Did the first music boxes and staffs cost an arm and leg? Um yes.

Why no uproar for that? Oh yeah, because you were getting a piece of the action.

rickcase276

The only thing I wish they would do is make the lower 3 tiers of rings bound to account, instead of bind on pickup. That would help a lot with alts.

cherryman1

Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.

hustin1

barbie#2808 said:

asterdahl said:

quickfoot#7851 said:

I think the decision to make the +4/5 rings unbound is a good one. Will the price be ridiculously high at first? Sure, but then they will drop.

One thing people always seem to want back in the PVE department, is unbound loot they can sell or trade. They always talk about how people used to be able to farm t2 and t3 content to sell the gear on the ah and that's the "heyday" of PVE to many people.

Just to make our position clear, as I've talked some about that time period in the past—but we absolutely do not intend to return to a point where whole sets of BoE armor are available in content. Although a handful of players made tidy profits right when that content launched, the value of those armor sets quickly hit a floor and you could then spend a few AD on the auction house to be best in slot.

That's not a world we want to return to, we'd like to keep the primary armor slots and weapons especially as something to be earned. We think there's space for accessory slot items to be sold on occasion. With the trial specifically, because of the difficulty, they should maintain their value for some time.

Explain to me how come the era of Castle Never managed to go with Bound to Equip weapons and gear from mod 1 to mod 3 without decreasing the value?

you are wasting so much potential in rewards by keeping them Bound on Account, also making content irrelevant.

I dont want to run content once, get what i want and then never run it again, i rather buy it on AH at overpriced price and then farm and sell those items myself...

if you place rewards in every dungeon in the game, and make the Dungeons difficult like the Trial on Preview, then the value will never decrease, and content will not feel obsolete, and you will give us a reason to play, rather than running only 1 dungeon per mod, the dungeon that is being released only in that mod.

The original CN was built as a 90-minute run (though you could do it in much less) with a VERY difficult end fight (if you didn't bring mega CC to the party you had no chance). That alone throttled how quickly those weapons could enter the marketplace, which helped maintain their value.