Ninja Nerf to Wizards damage incoming from Preview

dontez1

To all my fellow Wizards who use Ray of Frost and Conduit of Ice...
A Nerf is incoming from preview that stops both abilities from proccing Weapon Enchants.
Already posted to bug reports... But I think we all know it will hit us where it hurts.. Our dps...
Almost every class has abilities that that do damage over time and proc weapon enchants each time.
Our other abilities still do... Entangling Force, Icy Terrain, etc. Why single these 2 out?
Because Ray of Frost is the go to for at-wills on Thaum and stopping the ticks of weapon procs drops the dps.
The same for Conduit of Ice.. Both are used by most to stack Chill and for dps... Just crying Wolf here...

dontez1

These abilities are not working on live right now! Wtf!

pyrr

Wow...Shadow Nerf!

1) We get little to no AP from any and all encounters
2) Three weeks ago they said "we know about the W getting stuck while casting At-will" - Still know fix...really love it when it kills me
3) 1/3 of their companions do not work (IE owl bear cub, Manticore, Wererat Thief, to name a few)

...But we must spend out time micro managing "W" and nerfing AP get Artifact.

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baronstragen

Well, I don't know about weapon enchants other than Vorpal but I don't see a problem here as our Power will go up. This is on a level 80 dummy set and on live server, with Vorpal enchant.


And this is on Preview server, with Vorpal enchant against same dummies, but WITHOUT guild boons as the server's been erased.


The only amazing thing I see is how dummies manage to dodge my attacks. Lol.
I just noticed, Glowing Flames is not working on preview ATM.

dontez1

baronstragen said:

Well, I don't know about weapon enchants other than Vorpal but I don't see a problem here as our Power will go up. This is on a level 80 dummy set and on live server, with Vorpal enchant.


And this is on Preview server, with Vorpal enchant against same dummies, but WITHOUT guild boons as the server's been erased.


The only amazing thing I see is how dummies manage to dodge my attacks. Lol.
I just noticed, Glowing Flames is not working on preview ATM.

Oh really...

Oh look Ray of Enfeeblement works just fine...
Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Ray of Enfeeblement deals 23967 Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 1078 Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Smolder deals 4323 (3930) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Ray of Enfeeblement deals 26363 (23967) Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 1186 (1078) Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.


Lets look at Ray of Frost...

Combat (Self)] Your Ray of Frost deals 4925 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Ray of Frost deals 12550 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Rimefire Smolder deals 17541 Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Rimefire Smolder deals 15861 Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Ray of Frost deals 5439 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Rimefire Smolder deals 6059 Fire Damage to Target Dummy.


Hmm..No Vorpal damages... ? How about Conduit of Ice?

Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2864 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2713 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2506 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2760 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2543 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2976 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 2709 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

No Vorpal damages and I didn't crit! Dang 50% crit HAMSTER!
Seems like these two abilities need to be looked at...

They proc effects.. like crit sev for Vorpal but not the 5% damage from the enchant that should come up every time you do damage.
Maybe there is a reason that it is only showing 1% on your ACT chart... Also look at the total hits of the Vorpal vs the hits of the abilities it should be hitting with.. 74 ticks of Ray of frost should add 74 ticks of Vorpal damage... But you didn't notice anything wrong?
Thank you for confirming that it is NOT hitting with your ACT chart.

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zimxero

pariswinters#7118 said:

baronstragen said:

if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

Possibly... when no crit it counts it as 1 non-crit, when it crits it counts once per enemy hit?

baronstragen

*snip*
if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

I honestly don't know. Honestly. To be honest I don't expect whatever the devs are telling us to be the absolute truth. I don't even think they know what they are doing sometimes.

baronstragen

*snips*
They proc effects.. like crit sev for Vorpal but not the 5% damage from the enchant that should come up every time you do damage.
Maybe there is a reason that it is only showing 1% on your ACT chart... Also look at the total hits of the Vorpal vs the hits of the abilities it should be hitting with.. 74 ticks of Ray of frost should add 74 ticks of Vorpal damage... But you didn't notice anything wrong?
Thank you for confirming that it is NOT hitting with your ACT chart.

And thank you for clarifying what you were meaning. I don't mind helping inadvertently either. So the enchant is not proccing off of those encounters. Ok. Now we know what is broken @mimicking#6533

therealprotex

pariswinters#7118 said:

if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

Because probability is not the same as statistics. If you flip a coin 100 times, it is not impossible that you get 100 times "face", despite the 50% chance. Likewise, if your crit chance is capped to 50% that does not mean that you actually can not crit more often than 50% of the attempts.

reefriednunt

> @therealprotex said:
> if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........
>
> Because probability is not the same as statistics. If you flip a coin 100 times, it is not impossible that you get 100 times "face", despite the 50% chance. Likewise, if your crit chance is capped to 50% that does not mean that you actually can not crit more often than 50% of the attempts.

Exactly. You have a 50% chance to flip heads, but you could flip tails 10/10 times for a total of 100% tails

mebengalsfan

LMAO....

You know why they did this, to many people calling out for Wizards. This is the devs way to balance out the class, make the Wizard do less damage.

cabar1

> @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
> LMAO....
>
> You know why they did this, to many people calling out for Wizards. This is the devs way to balance out the class, make the Wizard do less damage.

This only affects wizards? LOL!

cherryman1

One the things that smolder used to do and I don't know if it does still is it used to increase the chance for you to crit. In all of these examples I'm not seeing many of your abilities under the 50% crit chance cap which from a statistics point of view should be happening if they really are capping you at 50%. This to me shows that something in the crit chance is making the CW over perform when it comes to getting crits which is similar to what some people stated during preview of this mod. While I'm not suggesting a nerf it isn't really fair to have one class that has increased levels of crit compared to other classes. All this means that if they do nerf the CW on damage and they eventually fix whatever looks to allow them to over preform on crit the class will be in a more or less unplayable state.

cherryman1

zimxero#8085 said:

pariswinters#7118 said:

baronstragen said:

if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

Possibly... when no crit it counts it as 1 non-crit, when it crits it counts once per enemy hit?

If that was the case you would see over 100% crit chance since hitting multiple targets on a crit would happen too frequently.

bpstuart

Oh goody. I use Ray of Frost all the time and am barley making it in some fights. Now they want to weaken me further. Why the nine buttery layers of Hell do i keep supporting this game?

cherryman1

therealprotex said:

pariswinters#7118 said:

if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

Because probability is not the same as statistics. If you flip a coin 100 times, it is not impossible that you get 100 times "face", despite the 50% chance. Likewise, if your crit chance is capped to 50% that does not mean that you actually can not crit more often than 50% of the attempts.

While probability is correct that there are 2 outcomes and that is a 50% chance of getting either result. If you flip that coin enough times and the % comes out way outside of 50% and doesn't start to come towards that 50% number your odds usually aren't at 50% per outcome. As your number of attempts increases eventually you will come closer to 50% or the way your doing it is flawed. A coin that has 100% outcomes of tails would indicate that the coin is weighted to the heads side or has some surface that doesn't allow the heads outcome to happen. The example of 100 face flips in a row is a 1 out of 30 million chance of happening. While the next flip is still 50% this doesn't stop there being outcomes that push it towards a different percentage of outcome over the long term. It will ALWAYS approach 50% outcomes the more attempts you make in a system that is a true 50% chance. FYI, the odds of being struck by lightning in real life is 1 out of 700,000. Your example of what you just suggested is less likely to happen than someone getting struck by lightning.... This means that the more likely event that is occurring here is that the formula is off and something is affecting the % chance of getting a crit because 66% and 68% is a pretty close deviation when it comes to hundreds of outcomes.

dupeks

All of this speculating about 50% probabilities and weird maths...

But I would guess that @baronstragen had crit conflag feat slotted, which procs a (crit) smolder on every critical hit. This alone would heavily skew the crit % of smolder to be more than 50%, since it's being triggered on each crit.

cherryman1

dupeks said:

All of this speculating about 50% probabilities and weird maths...

But I would guess that @baronstragen had crit conflag feat slotted, which procs a (crit) smolder on every critical hit. This alone would heavily skew the crit % of smolder to be more than 50%, since it's being triggered on each crit.

The weird math is called statistics and calculus.

I think I read several classes in the preview forums that are below in the damage amounts that would love to have a nice feat that increases the amount of times that they crit on their damage abilities other than some of them that require you to run abilities that you might not even use.

dupeks

cherryman1 said:

dupeks said:

All of this speculating about 50% probabilities and weird maths...

But I would guess that @baronstragen had crit conflag feat slotted, which procs a (crit) smolder on every critical hit. This alone would heavily skew the crit % of smolder to be more than 50%, since it's being triggered on each crit.

The weird math is called statistics and calculus.

I think I read several classes in the preview forums that are below in the damage amounts that would love to have a nice feat that increases the amount of times that they crit on their damage abilities other than some of them that require you to run abilities that you might not even use.

Hehe it's just stats, but it's built on a misunderstanding / flawed assumption.

It's assuming that smolder should have the same % chance to proc as any other power. However, this is incorrect because smolder is not a power you trigger directly, it's a proc that is applied by something.

The powers that apply smolder can crit or not crit. And as a proc effect, smolder inherits whether it crits from the power that applied it. If this was the only way that smolder was being applied, you would expect it to conform to 50% crit rate.

However, if you slot Critical Conflagration, then any critical hit automatically applies a critical smolder effect, including powers that wouldn't normally apply smolder at all. As a result:

• Powers that normally apply smolder still apply it 100% of the time with a crit chance of ~50%
  
• Powers that don't normally apply smolder apply it 50% of the time (on crit), but with an inherited crit chance of 100% (because non-crits don't proc)
  

If you unslotted all powers that can apply smolder normally and only applied it by crit, you should be able to achieve a 100% crit rate for smolder.

All of this is consistent with a max crit chance of powers being 50%.

dontez1

Just want to point out that Icy Rays also doesn't proc Vorpal Damage...

[Combat (Self)] Your Icy Rays deals 48639 Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Smolder deals 4441 (4354) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Icy Rays deals 123579 (121156) Cold Damage to Target Dummy.

[Combat (Self)] Your Smolder deals 4276 (4192) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

So Icy Rays, Conduit of Ice and Ray of Frost... Do not give Vorpal Damage....

With Repel not giving AP on hit and other encounters only giving .5%-1% AP on hit..

Easy way to not be top dps is have half of you're abilities not working properly...

nl54

Barbarians also have powers that don't proc a weapon enchant (and this was before the patch). A lot of things are jacked up with this mod. I'm kinda apathetic at this point so I've stopped reporting issues.

mebengalsfan

cabar1 said:

> @mebengalsfan#9264 said:

> LMAO....

>

> You know why they did this, to many people calling out for Wizards. This is the devs way to balance out the class, make the Wizard do less damage.



This only affects wizards? LOL!

I know that. It is to lower the wizard damage as many players were complaining that most call out for LoMM were for 3 wizards. Now there will be call out for other damage dealer with wizards doing less damage. Mod 16 design was to make damage dealer balanced, LMAO. Balance in MMOs only happen at sparing targets and never in actual content. Seen this happen in other games as well. I just laugh when any development team thinks they can truly balance classes out.

mebengalsfan

nl54#3191 said:

Barbarians also have powers that don't proc a weapon enchant (and this was before the patch). A lot of things are jacked up with this mod. I'm kinda apathetic at this point so I've stopped reporting issues.

Mod 16 was the cart and they didn't have a horse to help move the cart forward but they decided to move it any ways. That is why mod 16 is in the state it is in.

therealprotex

cherryman1 said:

therealprotex said:

pariswinters#7118 said:

if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

Because probability is not the same as statistics. If you flip a coin 100 times, it is not impossible that you get 100 times "face", despite the 50% chance. Likewise, if your crit chance is capped to 50% that does not mean that you actually can not crit more often than 50% of the attempts.

While probability is correct that there are 2 outcomes and that is a 50% chance of getting either result. If you flip that coin enough times and the % comes out way outside of 50% and doesn't start to come towards that 50% number your odds usually aren't at 50% per outcome. As your number of attempts increases eventually you will come closer to 50% or the way your doing it is flawed. A coin that has 100% outcomes of tails would indicate that the coin is weighted to the heads side or has some surface that doesn't allow the heads outcome to happen. The example of 100 face flips in a row is a 1 out of 30 million chance of happening. While the next flip is still 50% this doesn't stop there being outcomes that push it towards a different percentage of outcome over the long term. It will ALWAYS approach 50% outcomes the more attempts you make in a system that is a true 50% chance. FYI, the odds of being struck by lightning in real life is 1 out of 700,000. Your example of what you just suggested is less likely to happen than someone getting struck by lightning.... This means that the more likely event that is occurring here is that the formula is off and something is affecting the % chance of getting a crit because 66% and 68% is a pretty close deviation when it comes to hundreds of outcomes.

I am aware of the fact that with enough attempts the statistic distribution of outcomes reflects the probability. My example was not meant to be related to something realistic or something actually in the game, it was just meant to explain the difference between statistic and probability. (Btw, this discussion is basically the same as with refining success rates and chances where people complain about RNG being broken when they need 20+ attempts at a 10% chance.)

Oh, and another btw, if enough people toss a coin 100 times, it will eventually happen that one of them gets 100 times the same side. ;-)

greywynd

reefriednunt#3177 said:

Exactly. You have a 50% chance to flip heads, but you could flip tails 10/10 times for a total of 100% tails

Why is it no one ever considers the possibility of the edge? Coins do have 3 side.

therealprotex

greywynd said:

reefriednunt#3177 said:

Exactly. You have a 50% chance to flip heads, but you could flip tails 10/10 times for a total of 100% tails

Why is it no one ever considers the possibility of the edge? Coins do have 3 side.

Not the one that is always used in math/statistic classes. ;-)

wisper2048

cherryman1 said:

therealprotex said:

pariswinters#7118 said:

if crit chance caps at 50% how is your average crit chance over 65%? on the second log rimfire smolder hit 256 times at an 84% critical chance........

Because probability is not the same as statistics. If you flip a coin 100 times, it is not impossible that you get 100 times "face", despite the 50% chance. Likewise, if your crit chance is capped to 50% that does not mean that you actually can not crit more often than 50% of the attempts.

While probability is correct that there are 2 outcomes and that is a 50% chance of getting either result. If you flip that coin enough times and the % comes out way outside of 50% and doesn't start to come towards that 50% number your odds usually aren't at 50% per outcome. As your number of attempts increases eventually you will come closer to 50% or the way your doing it is flawed. A coin that has 100% outcomes of tails would indicate that the coin is weighted to the heads side or has some surface that doesn't allow the heads outcome to happen. The example of 100 face flips in a row is a 1 out of 30 million chance of happening. While the next flip is still 50% this doesn't stop there being outcomes that push it towards a different percentage of outcome over the long term. It will ALWAYS approach 50% outcomes the more attempts you make in a system that is a true 50% chance. FYI, the odds of being struck by lightning in real life is 1 out of 700,000. Your example of what you just suggested is less likely to happen than someone getting struck by lightning.... This means that the more likely event that is occurring here is that the formula is off and something is affecting the % chance of getting a crit because 66% and 68% is a pretty close deviation when it comes to hundreds of outcomes.

RNG in the game is broken for very long time, possibly from the start. I have two versions: they cache the RNG result for some time or they use bad non-global RNG with algorithm like LCG that tend to be streaky for some parameters. Basically, if you have crit, you have higher chances for crit for some time. So if proc off crit could also crit, it would also likely crit.

It also was reported that different characters have different RNG seeds stored in character data, so they had a different luck. I do not remember if they fixed it.

I attribute Alabaster main hand/off hand streaks problem also to broken RNG.

To test how bad RNG is easy. Get to some instance with a lot of skill nodes like Briggin's Tomb or Phantasmal Fortress. And start opening skill nodes with restarting instances. Note, you you need to attempt opening very quickly w/o pauses to see effect. If skill node fails, it very rarely fails just 1 time. It usually fails 3-5 times, but such situation should almost never happen if RNG were good. However, it is happening regularly.