...the essence of "D&D argument" is the illusion that nwo has some class that is more complex to be managed... or "glass cannon", etc.. i just ignore.
in any case, gwf dont do less damage because have less offensive status and more defensive status, but because dont have offensive, defensive or neutral FEATS to be choosed through levels. "lets create a off tank dps; how? give 3 defensive slots for companions and only two usable feats instead of 5 to emulate the D&D balance between classes"... of couse that dont make sense.
IF YOU ALL LEARN TO READ I DID STATE MORE THAN ONCE THAT ALL DPS CLASSES SHOULD PRODUCE SIMILAR DAMAGE!
The simple fact that you have 3 defensive is not really that much of an argument as that is not what is holding the class back. I mean go look at each companion and bonus and they are not game breaking like many are stating. Yeah another player may get a bit more power but it isn't enough to actually say 3 offensive vs. 3 defensive will make you inferior with this mod. It feels like that but that is not truth.
With that said, the devs stated that they didn't have the technical skill to have it swap based on the role. So maybe once they get that down it will be updated and I agree that is how it should have been done right from the get go. It wasn't but the 3 offensive vs. defensive isn't as bad as many are stating. It is a slight disadvantage that hopefully will be fixed.
As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution. I typically wait for my tank to go ahead and get threat. It is better than dying because I'm so eager to get a few more points in damage on the leaderboard.
PVE is a cooperative game, no need to be there before the tank, let the tank do their job and than you do yours.
"As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution."
little ironic... barbarians have movement bonus EXACTLY to do that... board games, mmos, etc,, etc, etc. if a barbarian cant rush AND, IN THE SAME TIME, do the same damage than every other dps class (or put something in this direction on the table, like using some usefull and offensive battlecry), so that is the problem.
"As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution."
little ironic... barbarians have movement bonus EXACTLY to do that... board games, mmos, etc,, etc, etc. if a barbarian cant rush AND, IN THE SAME TIME, do the same damage than every other dps class (or put something in this direction on the table, like using some usefull and offensive battlecry), so that is the problem.
I have no agenda as you assume. I keep stating all classes need to be within 5% of each other damage wise; no one class should reign supreme as a damage dealer.
My other comments are all do to how other classes that played as a dps were treated by GWF who basically stated that their only role in other mods was being a DPS so they should be a the highest damage dealers in the game; yet Rogues got the short end of the stick often while GWF were pretty much the cream of the crop for most of the game life after mod 5.
Since GWF is now considered a Barbarian and NWO is trying to follow 5e rules; well Barbarians are TANKS and good ones at that. I'm happy that Cryptic is trying to stick to 5e rules. I just hope that they are able to resolve the companion issue that some Barbarian players think are hindering the class. That will help a bit, but the class still needs further tweaking but probably not like some believe.
I did play a GWF for quite a while and I simply got bored with its rotation; it was stupid easy. And mod 16 pretty much made the whole game stupid easy so I'm not sure how much longer I'll play but I never had to rush in prior to the tank regardless of the class I play to produce good and top end damage. The most important thing that all damage dealer need to ensure they achieve higher damage is making sure they are in the right position to maximize their damage potential. The reason I state this is that if you are dead you don't do damage, if you are down waiting to be revived you don't do damage, etc..
So many times in NWO and other MMO games when I play as support role player about 10-15% of my time is picking up down damage dealers who run into combat without allowing a tank to do their job or lack the ability to understand positioning. I was in one run in another game where I was playing a support role character and the top damage dealer went down almost immediately each time we started a boss fight and throughout the fight. There were four bosses total and by the 3rd boss I was done picking up said player. I kicked them, got a replacement for the role I was playing and I went as a damage dealer. I did more than the other dps on two bosses, missed all the adds and died only once in the whole run and that was do to missing a blocking q while I was picking up the other player. So when I state I wait for my tank it is all do from playing other games where if you don't wait you die, if you run ahead you die, if you don't know mechanics you die, if you don't have proper position you can die, etc...
I'm hoping mod 17 forces groups to wait for the tank and focus on content being adjusted so that groups actually have to work together vs. one player feeling heroic and all god like and running in front of the group to hopefully get a few more ticks on the damage board.
What I'm seeing though from the Barbarian group is a bunch of players whining that they are no longer top damage dealers. Keep in mind that the players did ask for this change, maybe not directly but stating the GWF only has ONE VIABLE build can equate to well now you can tank, so you now have two viable builds.
Have you ever played Dungeon and Dragons? Wizard and Rogues should always be top damage dealers.
Just popping in to mention that this is not that game. Trying to apply tabletop reasoning to NW is always a bad idea. We are playing an MMO inspired by D&D source material, and that's it.
Very correct in this statement and has been brought up by devs n' mods alike
"As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution."
little ironic... barbarians have movement bonus EXACTLY to do that... board games, mmos, etc,, etc, etc. if a barbarian cant rush AND, IN THE SAME TIME, do the same damage than every other dps class (or put something in this direction on the table, like using some usefull and offensive battlecry), so that is the problem.
If you really think the purpose of the Barbarian's Rush (Tab power) is to run ahead of the tank in a foolish attempt to kill everything before everyone else, you certainly aren't alone .... Lots of Barbarians and even a number of warlocks seem to believe that.
Unfortunately that's NOT what it's meant for. The way the game mechanics work there is a bonus to threat for the first person spotted. If this is the tank, that's great. If it's a DPS who immediately starts attacking, it can make it difficult (or impossible) for the tank to pull agro from you when they do arrive. So unless the Barbarian who does this is powerful enough to kill the mob by themselves, it usually means the tank's first job is to pick up the unconscious barbarian off the ground as they get mobbed and killed in short order ...
The real strength of the Barbarian's rush isn't being able to be FIRST .... it's being able to be where you want to be pretty much whenever you want. Wait for the tank to engage then run around behind the mobs for the CA bonus (You will actually have far higher DPS waiting to get combat advantage, then by running ahead and taking all the agro). Run down those archers or other ranged enemies. Run out of the red instead of standing in it and dying, then run back in before the monster has recovered from the attack.
"The real strength of the Barbarian's rush isn't being able to be FIRST .... it's being able to be where you want to be pretty much whenever you want. "
whenever I want, like… don’t need wait for a tank? since beta, that as "the real strengh of the barbarian", and not what... a NON BARBARIAN PLAYER WANT TO A MAIN BARBARIAN PLAYER.
"Wait for the tank to engage then run around behind the mobs for the CA bonus (You will actually have far higher DPS waiting to get combat advantage, then by running ahead and taking all the agro)."
1- about logistc…
action A for gwfs: wait for a tank action B for gwfs, move forward action C: flank Action d : attack For ranged classes action A: wait for a tank action B: Attack acction C: attack again, but now, gwfs give CA to you.
2 - nice, I waiting for the tank, etc,etc; but some big guy now prepare a big attack against me: Gwf: low or 0 stamina before "catch archers", etc ; no other defensive tools Ranged class: safe distance, don’t spend stamina to use your range attack; full stamina to dodge.
"The real strength of the Barbarian's rush isn't being able to be FIRST .... it's being able to be where you want to be pretty much whenever you want. "
whenever I want, like… don’t need wait for a tank? since beta, that as "the real strengh of the barbarian", and not what... a NON BARBARIAN PLAYER WANT TO A MAIN BARBARIAN PLAYER.
"Wait for the tank to engage then run around behind the mobs for the CA bonus (You will actually have far higher DPS waiting to get combat advantage, then by running ahead and taking all the agro)."
1- about logistc…
action A for gwfs: wait for a tank action B for gwfs, move forward action C: flank Action d : attack For ranged classes action A: wait for a tank action B: Attack acction C: attack again, but now, gwfs give CA to you.
2 - nice, I waiting for the tank, etc,etc; but some big guy now prepare a big attack against me: Gwf: low or 0 stamina before "catch archers", etc ; no other defensive tools Ranged class: safe distance, don’t spend stamina to use your range attack; full stamina to dodge.
It is your funeral; if you can withstand the enemies attack and are not straining the healer than you are doing something right. If you are dying or require to much healing you need to reconsider your tactics.
Even as a range damage dealer I need to get up close and personal to lay down Icy Terrain. That encounter required me to get up close so don't use the range excuse with me or any other wizard that uses that encounter power. Because of that ability I have to properly position myself and not simply fire away at enemies from a so called not really safe distance.
Even when I do not use that encounter I still position myself not head on with the enemy; I try to get on the opposite side of the tank like any reasonable DPS would do; if the dps simply faces the enemy the same direction the tank is; that player if I had group lead would be kicked for not moving into a more optimal position as a damage dealer.
The sad part is a group I ran with we did 1 healer and 4 dd through all 5 man dungeons. Game is a honestly a joke now as you don't need a tank. It really reminds me of playing DCUO where you go in with just a healer and all damage dealers.
"Even as a range damage dealer I need to get up close and personal to lay down Icy Terrain. That encounter required me to get up close so don't use the range excuse with me or any other wizard that uses that encounter power. Because of that ability I have to properly position myself and not simply fire away at enemies from a so called not really safe distance. "
i dont understand your first sentence... but here is the difference between a melee gwf and range class that have some melee encounter.
when you use a encounter like "Ice terrain", that encounter dont interrupt your move. you just come close, use that HAMSTER, and the HAMSTER, and not you do the damage. like, i dont know, a turret in other games. in fact, steel time is more close to be a problem in that way.
gwfs stay close and stationary to do your damage. in fact, our tab are designeded to do that more fast and "safe".
"Even as a range damage dealer I need to get up close and personal to lay down Icy Terrain. That encounter required me to get up close so don't use the range excuse with me or any other wizard that uses that encounter power. Because of that ability I have to properly position myself and not simply fire away at enemies from a so called not really safe distance. "
i dont understand your first sentence... but here is the difference between a melee gwf and range class that have some melee encounter.
when you use a encounter like "Ice terrain", that encounter dont interrupt your move. you just come close, use that HAMSTER, and the HAMSTER, and not you do the damage. like, i dont know, a turret in other games. in fact, steel time is more close to be a problem in that way.
gwfs stay close and stationary to do your damage. in fact, our tab are designeded to do that more fast and "safe".
thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat is the difference...
Most damage dealer regardless if they are range or melee tend to stay close to the target mainly do to gear or one or two abilities.
Here is my normal rotation during a fight.
Tank run in gets threat. I than position myself behind the enemy (up close and personal) and than I use IT. I than use my other abilities while being up close and personal. I never teleport to waste my stamina as I do get bonus damage when my stamina is full, so I don't use it unless I need to. I don't start attacking the target within their line of sight like you seem to be inferring. I don't attack before the tank and I typically wait for my group.
What my point is that Barbarians are playing the same in mod 16 as they did in prior mods, running ahead and buring through stamina and attacking the boss or adds first; seen this in so many LoMM pug groups. Many of these characters lack defensive stats to take the hit; they go down rather quickly than blame the tank and healer because neither were close enough to do their role.
If the Barbarian would wait for the tank and healer than position correctly, like I stated I do when I play my wizard, there wouldn't be an issue. But many Barbarians are so use to running ahead and not dying that now when they die instead of taking ownership of their action they want to blame everyone but themselves. They blame the range DPS, they blame the healer, they blame the tank, they even start blaming other melee dps, but the one group they forget to blame is themselves for their actions.
STAY CLOSE IS NOT THE SAME TO STAY CLOSE AND FIXED IN THE SAME POINT, THAT IS THE NATURE TO OUR TAB+MELEE ATWILL.
cws, to use our atwills, dont need stay close, only fixed because that is the nature of a atwill.. to use, by your example, ice terrain, dont need stay fixed, but take "close" - not that close by the way - use a power with fast casting, and back to a safe positions. GWFS HAVE BOTH DISAVANTAGE USING TAB. we dont have some broken mechanic buffing our encounters. To maximize our encounters we need rage. how we got? using encounters.
even if you say "oh, but you dont need active battle range to use your atwills, you can wait 12-16 SECS to active battle rage and then, and only then, use your encounter with some bonus" yes, that means, our tab are oudtadat AND counterproducent if the idea is maximaze our damage and defence!
when cws get fixed - that will happens soon or later - you will see and understand that "want to play" is just HAMSTER.
ps: run against enemies is the NATURE of this class. if the game overbuff barbarians but now we are "Mid range casters" like everthing else, i will hate too.
STAY CLOSE IS NOT THE SAME TO STAY CLOSE AND FIXED IN THE SAME POINT, THAT IS THE NATURE TO OUR TAB+MELEE ATWILL.
cws, to use our atwills, dont need stay close, only fixed because that is the nature of a atwill.. to use, by your example, ice terrain, dont need stay fixed, but take "close" - not that close by the way - use a power with fast casting, and back to a safe positions. GWFS HAVE BOTH DISAVANTAGE USING TAB. we dont have some broken mechanic buffing our encounters. To maximize our encounters we need rage. how we got? using encounters.
even if you say "oh, but you dont need active battle range to use your atwills, you can wait 12-16 SECS to active battle rage and then, and only then, use your encounter with some bonus" yes, that means, our tab are oudtadat AND counterproducent if the idea is maximaze our damage and defence!
when cws get fixed - that will happens soon or later - you will see and understand that "want to play" is just HAMSTER.
ps: run against enemies is the NATURE of this class. if the game overbuff barbarians but now we are "Mid range casters" like everthing else, i will hate too.
I've ran with plenty of Barb that know what they are doing and wait for the tank and produce good dmg. Maybe it is just you.
A small fix here and there may help but Barb damage isn't all that far off like many think.
The damage is fine. Applying the damage as fast as other classes, the barb is at a disadvantage. Same with the Fighter(who has it worse having to squat). If other DPS classes "wait" for the tank, I think most people would be happy, but its not going to happen on a consistent basis. The rage builds up, but by the time we build some rage, usually that group is long dead, or you waste your encounter/unstoppable on mobs about to die. Ran ACT with a HR/TR, 24 min run. Dps on encounters or at wills isn't the problem. HR did around 90 mil, I did 62 or so, and TR did just under 50. The problem is the amount of "swings". HR had 3.1k, I had just under 2.3k, TR at 2.2k. 800 more hits on my amount is an extra 1/3, and that is the problem in the DPS spread. If they are going to allow other classes to be quicker, and not have to charge rage or squat for seethe, the slower classes need to pack more of a punch for less swings. The DPS isn't bad, but it stinks that our AP builds very slow, our stamina recharges VERY slowly(even tried an elven battle and had 50% stam regen), our at wills build rage slow, and were forced to manage disadvantages around classes that do about same amounts on at wills/encounters and get more of them.
maybe is just me what? i just describe the nature of the class and some mechanics... yes, let's ignore because "you know some person that bla, bla, bla"
by the way, what means a "good damage"? less than you even with all described disadvantages that you cant deny? by the "complexity argument", this guys should do more, no?... oh, no, because "we are tanks too"... a "tank" that need wait a tank...
"As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution."
little ironic... barbarians have movement bonus EXACTLY to do that... board games, mmos, etc,, etc, etc. if a barbarian cant rush AND, IN THE SAME TIME, do the same damage than every other dps class (or put something in this direction on the table, like using some usefull and offensive battlecry), so that is the problem.
If you really think the purpose of the Barbarian's Rush (Tab power) is to run ahead of the tank in a foolish attempt to kill everything before everyone else, you certainly aren't alone .... Lots of Barbarians and even a number of warlocks seem to believe that.
Unfortunately that's NOT what it's meant for. The way the game mechanics work there is a bonus to threat for the first person spotted. If this is the tank, that's great. If it's a DPS who immediately starts attacking, it can make it difficult (or impossible) for the tank to pull agro from you when they do arrive. So unless the Barbarian who does this is powerful enough to kill the mob by themselves, it usually means the tank's first job is to pick up the unconscious barbarian off the ground as they get mobbed and killed in short order ...
The real strength of the Barbarian's rush isn't being able to be FIRST .... it's being able to be where you want to be pretty much whenever you want. Wait for the tank to engage then run around behind the mobs for the CA bonus (You will actually have far higher DPS waiting to get combat advantage, then by running ahead and taking all the agro). Run down those archers or other ranged enemies. Run out of the red instead of standing in it and dying, then run back in before the monster has recovered from the attack.
Well said. It is sad that some players have not learn how to change their behavior to adjust with the changes to the game. If you are a damage dealer, in all MMOs I have played, you always wait for the tank to go ahead and get threat/aggro so that the damage dealer than can position themselves to maximize their damage. Mod 16 brought this same mechanical design to NWO. It is good to see this in the game.
Problem isn't the mechanical design of tank going in first, it is the players thinking that if they don't rush in and do their abilities ASAP to produce they will not be top on the lead board. Another issue I have in MMO games are leaderboards for PVE content. I mean seriously who cares if you are top damage dealer or not; the most important thing is completing content.
Yet it appears that Barbarian damage dealer think that there movement mode is to run ahead and get there before the tank so they can get on the leader board. The Barbarians I run with that wait for the tank with the other damage dealer don't seem to have any issues at producing damage similar to the so called range damage dealer classes. Maybe its because they learned how to play a damage dealer by playing other MMO games. I highly recommend putting NWO down and go try another MMO game and try playing as a damage dealer like the a GWF; most groups would kick you from content simply because of stupidity.
As for the Barbarian class, if there are issue with encounters, feats, dailies or at wills that are not working as intended you need to report them so that the developers can fix them.
I don't believe that any game can honestly deliver on class balance do to how balancing happens at the sparring target vs. actual content and how each class produces damage can vary and greatly impact what actually happens during a run.
So to answer the question are classes balance; they probably were using the sparring target method that I so do not like as a measure for class balance, but it is easiest way to validate if classes are truly balance or not.
what means a "good damage"? less than you even with all described disadvantages? by the "complexity argument", this guys should do more, no?... oh, no, because "we are tanks too"... a "tank" that need wait a tank..."
how a non gwf player want to see my class working is not relevant, that is the end of story. letme reapeat:
"run against enemies is the NATURE of this class. if the game overbuff barbarians but now we are "Mid range casters" like everthing else, i will hate too.
and to explain that is MORE ABOUT absolete mechanicals than "being weak o strong" by some smart designe, lets take a look to sentinels. iam a tank now, then i came close and... the drama is worst than a dps patch. Same problem, i need rage to active battle rage. that means, use encounters. takedown for example got some bonus when battle rage are active. but guess what? you need use takedown to got rage to active battle rage. the new encounter expend rage. that means, less rage generation. but even f you have 3 encounters building rage, is not enough to active battle rage. what you do? use a really slow wicked strike to still build threat. guess what? that atwill dont have enough range or speed to control the fight.
then, again, THAT IS FOR YOU DEVS: IMPROVE THE MAIN SPEED OF every ATWILLSTO THE SAME LEVEL OF BATTLE RAGE (battle rage will lose that bonus). then, atwills will generate the same rage of encounters, or close to that. for bladmasters, 20%-25% more damage, up to 10%-15%, when battle rage is actve (maybe only for encounters, no problem). done.
oh, no, because "we are tanks too"... a "tank" that need wait a tank..."
If the barbarian is playing as a blademaster they are not a tank; they are a damage dealer. Just because the Barbarian has the tank role available to them to play doesn't mean that the damage dealer side is a tank as well. If you think that you need to realize this, you can only play one role at a time and if you are playing as a damage dealer, play as one and not try to be a tank.
With that said, game mechanics have changed greatly from prior mods. You need to allow the tank to play their role and get threat so you can get into position to get CA. Here is the thing, that is when you use the movement mode, to get into position. Guess who has the ability to quickly get into position after the tank get threat, the Barbarian. The other class have to wait a few seconds. Also, range classes don't get CA until they get up close ATM therefore like all melee classes range classes need to get up close to get CA and you know who gets CA the quickest do to their speed, Barbarian.
But again, apparently running in before the tank, before CA is available is why your damage is so bad or maybe your damage is bad because you don't allow the tank to give you CA so you can maximize your damage sooner.
"what means a "good damage"? less than you even with all described disadvantages? by the "complexity argument", this guys should do more, no?...
"
that means, all gwfs. include myself. I did not say my PERSONAL damage is bad in any point. i said that damage - gwfs potential - are inferior to wizards potential. and, the most important, explained WHY that happens to gwfs despite to cws be broken or not.
2 - about tank vs dps patch, I'm being ironical because, in some part, you justify that damage difference happens because we have a tank patch too, but by your own argument, dont should do difference. i agree but that dont change the fact that barbarians are, by your nature, a class100% active, and dont... a passive soy class.
3: who said i dont use combat advantage? who said i dont "wait for a tank" (you dont see cws waiting for a tank, but nevermind) i said that is not the nature of the class.
4 - "who is the best to got CA.
A - we need stamina to dodge, and got "the best CA position". offensive and defencive porpose. i explained the problem here.
B - the most critic here is: a "good gwf", like you said, that have more easy ways to got combat advantage STILL BEHIND to cws, that means, in a lot of circunstances, have less time using combat advantage... that means, the real gap is BIGGER.
Any class that has to charge up rage/seethe/even SW soul puppet is never going to more DPS than classes that don't have to worry about it. The mobs die too quickly, breaks in boss, etc. Not enough time or enemies. I'm saying this when between 2 BIS players that know their class. Right now I would say pecking order for potential DPS: 1)CW 2)HR/TR 3)SW 4)Barb/DC(which is sad) 5)Fighter Paladin's also dish out the DPS in tank mode, usually 30-40 mil I've seen in LOMM, sometimes more in "average" groups. I ran ACT several times, HR constantly gets 800 more swings(im usually around 2250-2400).
Any class that has to charge up rage/seethe/even SW soul puppet is never going to more DPS than classes that don't have to worry about it. The mobs die too quickly, breaks in boss, etc. Not enough time or enemies. I'm saying this when between 2 BIS players that know their class. Right now I would say pecking order for potential DPS: 1)CW 2)HR/TR 3)SW 4)Barb/DC(which is sad) 5)Fighter Paladin's also dish out the DPS in tank mode, usually 30-40 mil I've seen in LOMM, sometimes more in "average" groups. I ran ACT several times, HR constantly gets 800 more swings(im usually around 2250-2400).
I agree with everyone in there except that fighter and some players that turned me on to a build in fighter makes it on the same line as barb and DC. DC might be able to move up to where the SW is at right now as well.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
"GWF were off tanks up until mod 5; mod 6 made GWF pure DPS. Like I stated in another thread, mod 16 is moving the game back to mod 5 and making it easier by removing class complexity. This means Barb are tanks once again."
rsrssrs... Until module 15 cws are, for the most of time, "off" dps... primary CONTROLLER (by designe) or buffer and/or secundary strikers. Gwfs are ´PRIMARY striker (by designe or pratice) and secundary tank..
Historical speaking Best damages: Mod 1 - cw >gwf Mod 2 -gwf>ranger=cw Mod 3 - gwf>cw (in general) Come nerf hammer for gwfs because of some soy wizards: Mod 4 - sw or rogue, not sure>gwf(sentinel) Mod 5 - not sure too… but gwfs are not in the top three. 6 to 15 - I don’t need explain… So no… since the very beginning gwfs are main strikers, dealing more damage moduleXmodule than any other class…
Lol. We're living in some paralel dimension: Mod 1 - cw,tr >gwf Mod 2 -gwf with bugged deep gash>ranger=cw deep gash fix Mod 3 - *cw>gwf Come nerf hammer for *CWs because of some soy Gwfs and eye-candy SWs have to be introduced as ranged arcane dps Mod 4 - sw with bugged TC and various bugs (fixed years after)> all, gwf Mod 5 - gwfs were in the top *two-three with imba intimidation+power builds 6 to 15 - >I don’t need explain... *Yes. You don't! Gwfs were top dmg or close second. Except Mod14 TR imba demise era or mod15 cw times.
>since the very beginning gwfs are main strikers, dealing more damage moduleXmodule than any other class… Well I would count easier the modules when they weren't top dps!
Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!
Its Dnd5 here and now!
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
Lol. We're living in some paralel dimension: Mod 1 - cw,tr >gwf Mod 2 -gwf with bugged deep gash>ranger=cw deep gash fix Mod 3 - *cw>gwf Come nerf hammer for *CWs because of some soy Gwfs and eye-candy SWs have to be introduced as ranged arcane dps Mod 4 - sw with bugged TC and various bugs (fixed years after)> all, gwf Mod 5 - gwfs were in the top *two-three with imba intimidation+power builds 6 to 15 - >I don’t need explain... *Yes. You don't! Gwfs were top dmg or close second. Except Mod14 TR imba demise era or mod15 cw times.
Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!
Its Dnd5 here and now!
in fact We're leaving in some paralel dimension " cws got BUFFED in prevu=iew of m4 because of soy wizards in pvp and gwfs (destroyers/IV) nerfed for the same reason. what you guys loose is a meatball and some aoe bugs.
intimidation come in the middle of module 4 - after some dev realizing that nefs requests are just... well... - and then, got fixed during m5 because EVEN GWFS PLAYERS ASKED FOR THAT (destroyers got some buff, but not enough until m6)
i see ONE cw doing a good damage during module 15, very impressive, but in general gwf still on top
"Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!"
... will I describe the past without the criteria used in the past? don't be ashamed of your past
Lol. We're living in some paralel dimension: Mod 1 - cw,tr >gwf Mod 2 -gwf with bugged deep gash>ranger=cw deep gash fix Mod 3 - *cw>gwf Come nerf hammer for *CWs because of some soy Gwfs and eye-candy SWs have to be introduced as ranged arcane dps Mod 4 - sw with bugged TC and various bugs (fixed years after)> all, gwf Mod 5 - gwfs were in the top *two-three with imba intimidation+power builds 6 to 15 - >I don’t need explain... *Yes. You don't! Gwfs were top dmg or close second. Except Mod14 TR imba demise era or mod15 cw times.
Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!
Its Dnd5 here and now!
in fact We're leaving in some paralel dimension " cws got BUFFED in prevu=iew of m4 because of soy wizards in pvp and gwfs (destroyers/IV) nerfed for the same reason. what you guys loose is a meatball and some aoe bugs.
intimidation come in the middle of module 4 - after some dev realizing that nefs requests are just... well... - and then, got fixed during m5 because EVEN GWFS PLAYERS ASKED FOR THAT (destroyers got some buff, but not enough until m6)
i see ONE cw doing a good damage during module 15, very impressive, but in general gwf still on top
"Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!"
... will I describe the past without the criteria used in the past? don't be ashamed of your past
Mod 15, all classes were good damage dealing wise. Overall though with a full buff group a wizard running with 30K recovery could hit an ice knife every 6-8 seconds. I know because I had that on my wizard. My GF was also killer on bosses, melting enemies pretty darn fast. I saw rogues also melt bosses and even warlocks. The top single target damage dealers in mod 15 were CW, TR, SW, and GF. They all could do massive damage on single target.
For AoE damage GWF and HR were top. CW loss a bit in mod 15 in AoE but gained quite a bit for single target.
Not sure about you but have you ever hit the boss in CoDG for 230M as a GWF? I did that constantly on my CW.
to be honest, i have no idea. but what is the point? lets back to the core of the discussion
you said "GWF were off tanks up until mod 5; mod 6 made GWF pure DPS. Like I stated in another thread, mod 16 is moving the game back to mod 5 and making it easier by removing class complexity. This means Barb are tanks once again."
then i said... Until module 15 cws are, for the most of time, "off" dps... primary CONTROLLER (by designe) or buffer and/or secundary strikers. Gwfs are ´PRIMARY striker (by designe or pratice) and secundary tank..
what change that fact? your controller hit hard as a defender in some situations? that dont change the fact that gwfs are main damage dealers and the most solid choice of damage in the most of modules.
"I apologize for any confusion, I did read your whole post, but sometimes only have time to respond to individual parts of a larger post. Please note that every class has a role even without a paragon path. This role is visible on their character sheet, as well as next to their health bar in the party pane.
For example: fighter and paladin are tanks before choosing a paragon path, cleric is a healer, and barbarian is a DPS. They are eligible for role bonuses with their corresponding role and fill those roles when queuing for content."
that means... your entire bulshit about barbarians be now tanks is pure HAMSTER. the superiority of cws now is a pure "accident", not a intentional designe. since beta gwfs and now barbarians are MAIN DPS. cws, dont. simple like that.
so, you if you guys whant know more than the old devs and new devs, ok. i remember when gentlemancrush said that cws NEVER SHOULD HAVE CAUSED so much damage since beggining. NOW, BY A GAME DESIGNE/DECISION cws are damage dealers AS A GWF/BARBARIANS.
Let's be honest, the classes are where they want to....Classes with only DPS role are top because they are expected to be better, and classes with two roles are expected to be MAINLY support because we have the MAIN DPS classes for DPS. Barbarians and Warlocks were DPS pre Mod 16, but they move the roles and we're just another tank/healer option for the lack of support players. I don't believe in the theory that Wizard's superiority is accident, they made DPS/DPS classes the supreme DPS in the game (Don't believe in the devs word about being all classes the same in damage, that's only words, but the reality is other).
Let's be honest, the classes are where they want to....Classes with only DPS role are top because they are expected to be better, and classes with two roles are expected to be MAINLY support because we have the MAIN DPS classes for DPS. Barbarians and Warlocks were DPS pre Mod 16, but they move the roles and we're just another tank/healer option for the lack of support players. I don't believe in the theory that Wizard's superiority is accident, they made DPS/DPS classes the supreme DPS in the game (Don't believe in the devs word about being all classes the same in damage, that's only words, but the reality is other).
too soon to conclusions, i think. is sad, but we need wait 3 or 4 modules of this new "era" to see. Right now the game is a burning building selling what has not yet been hit by the flames.
Comments
in any case, gwf dont do less damage because have less offensive status and more defensive status, but because dont have offensive, defensive or neutral FEATS to be choosed through levels. "lets create a off tank dps; how? give 3 defensive slots for companions and only two usable feats instead of 5 to emulate the D&D balance between classes"... of couse that dont make sense.
The simple fact that you have 3 defensive is not really that much of an argument as that is not what is holding the class back. I mean go look at each companion and bonus and they are not game breaking like many are stating. Yeah another player may get a bit more power but it isn't enough to actually say 3 offensive vs. 3 defensive will make you inferior with this mod. It feels like that but that is not truth.
With that said, the devs stated that they didn't have the technical skill to have it swap based on the role. So maybe once they get that down it will be updated and I agree that is how it should have been done right from the get go. It wasn't but the 3 offensive vs. defensive isn't as bad as many are stating. It is a slight disadvantage that hopefully will be fixed.
As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution. I typically wait for my tank to go ahead and get threat. It is better than dying because I'm so eager to get a few more points in damage on the leaderboard.
PVE is a cooperative game, no need to be there before the tank, let the tank do their job and than you do yours.
"As for those rushing ahead as DPS without waiting for the tank to get threat first are part of the problem with this game longevity and not the solution."
little ironic... barbarians have movement bonus EXACTLY to do that... board games, mmos, etc,, etc, etc. if a barbarian cant rush AND, IN THE SAME TIME, do the same damage than every other dps class (or put something in this direction on the table, like using some usefull and offensive battlecry), so that is the problem.
My other comments are all do to how other classes that played as a dps were treated by GWF who basically stated that their only role in other mods was being a DPS so they should be a the highest damage dealers in the game; yet Rogues got the short end of the stick often while GWF were pretty much the cream of the crop for most of the game life after mod 5.
Since GWF is now considered a Barbarian and NWO is trying to follow 5e rules; well Barbarians are TANKS and good ones at that. I'm happy that Cryptic is trying to stick to 5e rules. I just hope that they are able to resolve the companion issue that some Barbarian players think are hindering the class. That will help a bit, but the class still needs further tweaking but probably not like some believe.
I did play a GWF for quite a while and I simply got bored with its rotation; it was stupid easy. And mod 16 pretty much made the whole game stupid easy so I'm not sure how much longer I'll play but I never had to rush in prior to the tank regardless of the class I play to produce good and top end damage. The most important thing that all damage dealer need to ensure they achieve higher damage is making sure they are in the right position to maximize their damage potential. The reason I state this is that if you are dead you don't do damage, if you are down waiting to be revived you don't do damage, etc..
So many times in NWO and other MMO games when I play as support role player about 10-15% of my time is picking up down damage dealers who run into combat without allowing a tank to do their job or lack the ability to understand positioning. I was in one run in another game where I was playing a support role character and the top damage dealer went down almost immediately each time we started a boss fight and throughout the fight. There were four bosses total and by the 3rd boss I was done picking up said player. I kicked them, got a replacement for the role I was playing and I went as a damage dealer. I did more than the other dps on two bosses, missed all the adds and died only once in the whole run and that was do to missing a blocking q while I was picking up the other player. So when I state I wait for my tank it is all do from playing other games where if you don't wait you die, if you run ahead you die, if you don't know mechanics you die, if you don't have proper position you can die, etc...
I'm hoping mod 17 forces groups to wait for the tank and focus on content being adjusted so that groups actually have to work together vs. one player feeling heroic and all god like and running in front of the group to hopefully get a few more ticks on the damage board.
What I'm seeing though from the Barbarian group is a bunch of players whining that they are no longer top damage dealers. Keep in mind that the players did ask for this change, maybe not directly but stating the GWF only has ONE VIABLE build can equate to well now you can tank, so you now have two viable builds.
Unfortunately that's NOT what it's meant for. The way the game mechanics work there is a bonus to threat for the first person spotted. If this is the tank, that's great. If it's a DPS who immediately starts attacking, it can make it difficult (or impossible) for the tank to pull agro from you when they do arrive. So unless the Barbarian who does this is powerful enough to kill the mob by themselves, it usually means the tank's first job is to pick up the unconscious barbarian off the ground as they get mobbed and killed in short order ...
The real strength of the Barbarian's rush isn't being able to be FIRST .... it's being able to be where you want to be pretty much whenever you want. Wait for the tank to engage then run around behind the mobs for the CA bonus (You will actually have far higher DPS waiting to get combat advantage, then by running ahead and taking all the agro). Run down those archers or other ranged enemies. Run out of the red instead of standing in it and dying, then run back in before the monster has recovered from the attack.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
whenever I want, like… don’t need wait for a tank? since beta, that as "the real strengh of the barbarian", and not what... a NON BARBARIAN PLAYER WANT TO A MAIN BARBARIAN PLAYER.
1- about logistc…
action A for gwfs: wait for a tank
action B for gwfs, move forward
action C: flank
Action d : attack
For ranged classes
action A: wait for a tank
action B: Attack
acction C: attack again, but now, gwfs give CA to you.
2 - nice, I waiting for the tank, etc,etc; but some big guy now prepare a big attack against me:
Gwf: low or 0 stamina before "catch archers", etc ; no other defensive tools
Ranged class: safe distance, don’t spend stamina to use your range attack; full stamina to dodge.
Even as a range damage dealer I need to get up close and personal to lay down Icy Terrain. That encounter required me to get up close so don't use the range excuse with me or any other wizard that uses that encounter power. Because of that ability I have to properly position myself and not simply fire away at enemies from a so called not really safe distance.
Even when I do not use that encounter I still position myself not head on with the enemy; I try to get on the opposite side of the tank like any reasonable DPS would do; if the dps simply faces the enemy the same direction the tank is; that player if I had group lead would be kicked for not moving into a more optimal position as a damage dealer.
The sad part is a group I ran with we did 1 healer and 4 dd through all 5 man dungeons. Game is a honestly a joke now as you don't need a tank. It really reminds me of playing DCUO where you go in with just a healer and all damage dealers.
i dont understand your first sentence... but here is the difference between a melee gwf and range class that have some melee encounter.
when you use a encounter like "Ice terrain", that encounter dont interrupt your move. you just come close, use that HAMSTER, and the HAMSTER, and not you do the damage. like, i dont know, a turret in other games. in fact, steel time is more close to be a problem in that way.
gwfs stay close and stationary to do your damage. in fact, our tab are designeded to do that more fast and "safe".
thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat is the difference...
Most damage dealer regardless if they are range or melee tend to stay close to the target mainly do to gear or one or two abilities.
Here is my normal rotation during a fight.
Tank run in gets threat. I than position myself behind the enemy (up close and personal) and than I use IT. I than use my other abilities while being up close and personal. I never teleport to waste my stamina as I do get bonus damage when my stamina is full, so I don't use it unless I need to. I don't start attacking the target within their line of sight like you seem to be inferring. I don't attack before the tank and I typically wait for my group.
What my point is that Barbarians are playing the same in mod 16 as they did in prior mods, running ahead and buring through stamina and attacking the boss or adds first; seen this in so many LoMM pug groups. Many of these characters lack defensive stats to take the hit; they go down rather quickly than blame the tank and healer because neither were close enough to do their role.
If the Barbarian would wait for the tank and healer than position correctly, like I stated I do when I play my wizard, there wouldn't be an issue. But many Barbarians are so use to running ahead and not dying that now when they die instead of taking ownership of their action they want to blame everyone but themselves. They blame the range DPS, they blame the healer, they blame the tank, they even start blaming other melee dps, but the one group they forget to blame is themselves for their actions.
cws, to use our atwills, dont need stay close, only fixed because that is the nature of a atwill.. to use, by your example, ice terrain, dont need stay fixed, but take "close" - not that close by the way - use a power with fast casting, and back to a safe positions. GWFS HAVE BOTH DISAVANTAGE USING TAB. we dont have some broken mechanic buffing our encounters. To maximize our encounters we need rage. how we got? using encounters.
even if you say "oh, but you dont need active battle range to use your atwills, you can wait 12-16 SECS to active battle rage and then, and only then, use your encounter with some bonus" yes, that means, our tab are oudtadat AND counterproducent if the idea is maximaze our damage and defence!
when cws get fixed - that will happens soon or later - you will see and understand that "want to play" is just HAMSTER.
ps: run against enemies is the NATURE of this class. if the game overbuff barbarians but now we are "Mid range casters" like everthing else, i will hate too.
A small fix here and there may help but Barb damage isn't all that far off like many think.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
by the way, what means a "good damage"? less than you even with all described disadvantages that you cant deny? by the "complexity argument", this guys should do more, no?... oh, no, because "we are tanks too"... a "tank" that need wait a tank...
Problem isn't the mechanical design of tank going in first, it is the players thinking that if they don't rush in and do their abilities ASAP to produce they will not be top on the lead board. Another issue I have in MMO games are leaderboards for PVE content. I mean seriously who cares if you are top damage dealer or not; the most important thing is completing content.
Yet it appears that Barbarian damage dealer think that there movement mode is to run ahead and get there before the tank so they can get on the leader board. The Barbarians I run with that wait for the tank with the other damage dealer don't seem to have any issues at producing damage similar to the so called range damage dealer classes. Maybe its because they learned how to play a damage dealer by playing other MMO games. I highly recommend putting NWO down and go try another MMO game and try playing as a damage dealer like the a GWF; most groups would kick you from content simply because of stupidity.
As for the Barbarian class, if there are issue with encounters, feats, dailies or at wills that are not working as intended you need to report them so that the developers can fix them.
I don't believe that any game can honestly deliver on class balance do to how balancing happens at the sparring target vs. actual content and how each class produces damage can vary and greatly impact what actually happens during a run.
So to answer the question are classes balance; they probably were using the sparring target method that I so do not like as a measure for class balance, but it is easiest way to validate if classes are truly balance or not.
how a non gwf player want to see my class working is not relevant, that is the end of story. letme reapeat:
and to explain that is MORE ABOUT absolete mechanicals than "being weak o strong" by some smart designe, lets take a look to sentinels. iam a tank now, then i came close and... the drama is worst than a dps patch. Same problem, i need rage to active battle rage. that means, use encounters. takedown for example got some bonus when battle rage are active. but guess what? you need use takedown to got rage to active battle rage. the new encounter expend rage. that means, less rage generation. but even f you have 3 encounters building rage, is not enough to active battle rage. what you do? use a really slow wicked strike to still build threat. guess what? that atwill dont have enough range or speed to control the fight.
then, again, THAT IS FOR YOU DEVS: IMPROVE THE MAIN SPEED OF every ATWILLSTO THE SAME LEVEL OF BATTLE RAGE (battle rage will lose that bonus). then, atwills will generate the same rage of encounters, or close to that. for bladmasters, 20%-25% more damage, up to 10%-15%, when battle rage is actve (maybe only for encounters, no problem). done.
With that said, game mechanics have changed greatly from prior mods. You need to allow the tank to play their role and get threat so you can get into position to get CA. Here is the thing, that is when you use the movement mode, to get into position. Guess who has the ability to quickly get into position after the tank get threat, the Barbarian. The other class have to wait a few seconds. Also, range classes don't get CA until they get up close ATM therefore like all melee classes range classes need to get up close to get CA and you know who gets CA the quickest do to their speed, Barbarian.
But again, apparently running in before the tank, before CA is available is why your damage is so bad or maybe your damage is bad because you don't allow the tank to give you CA so you can maximize your damage sooner.
that means, all gwfs. include myself. I did not say my PERSONAL damage is bad in any point. i said that damage - gwfs potential - are inferior to wizards potential. and, the most important, explained WHY that happens to gwfs despite to cws be broken or not.
2 - about tank vs dps patch, I'm being ironical because, in some part, you justify that damage difference happens because we have a tank patch too, but by your own argument, dont should do difference. i agree but that dont change the fact that barbarians are, by your nature, a class100% active, and dont... a passive soy class.
3: who said i dont use combat advantage? who said i dont "wait for a tank" (you dont see cws waiting for a tank, but nevermind) i said that is not the nature of the class.
4 - "who is the best to got CA.
A - we need stamina to dodge, and got "the best CA position". offensive and defencive porpose. i explained the problem here.
B - the most critic here is: a "good gwf", like you said, that have more easy ways to got combat advantage STILL BEHIND to cws, that means, in a lot of circunstances, have less time using combat advantage... that means, the real gap is BIGGER.
1)CW
2)HR/TR
3)SW
4)Barb/DC(which is sad)
5)Fighter
Paladin's also dish out the DPS in tank mode, usually 30-40 mil I've seen in LOMM, sometimes more in "average" groups. I ran ACT several times, HR constantly gets 800 more swings(im usually around 2250-2400).
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Mod 1 - cw,tr >gwf
Mod 2 -gwf with bugged deep gash>ranger=cw
deep gash fix
Mod 3 - *cw>gwf
Come nerf hammer for *CWs because of some soy Gwfs and eye-candy SWs have to be introduced as ranged arcane dps
Mod 4 - sw with bugged TC and various bugs (fixed years after)> all, gwf
Mod 5 - gwfs were in the top *two-three with imba intimidation+power builds
6 to 15 - >I don’t need explain... *Yes. You don't! Gwfs were top dmg or close second. Except Mod14 TR imba demise era or mod15 cw times.
>since the very beginning gwfs are main strikers, dealing more damage moduleXmodule than any other class…
Well I would count easier the modules when they weren't top dps!
Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!
Its Dnd5 here and now!
Lol. We're living in some paralel dimension:
Mod 1 - cw,tr >gwf
Mod 2 -gwf with bugged deep gash>ranger=cw
deep gash fix
Mod 3 - *cw>gwf
Come nerf hammer for *CWs because of some soy Gwfs and eye-candy SWs have to be introduced as ranged arcane dps
Mod 4 - sw with bugged TC and various bugs (fixed years after)> all, gwf
Mod 5 - gwfs were in the top *two-three with imba intimidation+power builds
6 to 15 - >I don’t need explain... *Yes. You don't! Gwfs were top dmg or close second. Except Mod14 TR imba demise era or mod15 cw times.
Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!
Its Dnd5 here and now!
in fact We're leaving in some paralel dimension
"
cws got BUFFED in prevu=iew of m4 because of soy wizards in pvp and gwfs (destroyers/IV) nerfed for the same reason. what you guys loose is a meatball and some aoe bugs.
intimidation come in the middle of module 4 - after some dev realizing that nefs requests are just... well... - and then, got fixed during m5 because EVEN GWFS PLAYERS ASKED FOR THAT (destroyers got some buff, but not enough until m6)
i see ONE cw doing a good damage during module 15, very impressive, but in general gwf still on top
"Btw! You should be told that those outdated DnD4 roles(Controller, Striker, defender) you are refering is updated!"
... will I describe the past without the criteria used in the past? don't be ashamed of your past
For AoE damage GWF and HR were top. CW loss a bit in mod 15 in AoE but gained quite a bit for single target.
Not sure about you but have you ever hit the boss in CoDG for 230M as a GWF? I did that constantly on my CW.
you said "GWF were off tanks up until mod 5; mod 6 made GWF pure DPS. Like I stated in another thread, mod 16 is moving the game back to mod 5 and making it easier by removing class complexity. This means Barb are tanks once again."
then i said... Until module 15 cws are, for the most of time, "off" dps... primary CONTROLLER (by designe) or buffer and/or secundary strikers. Gwfs are ´PRIMARY striker (by designe or pratice) and secundary tank..
what change that fact? your controller hit hard as a defender in some situations? that dont change the fact that gwfs are main damage dealers and the most solid choice of damage in the most of modules.
now the most important to put on trash your arguments:
asterdahl said here: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/13124347
For example: fighter and paladin are tanks before choosing a paragon path, cleric is a healer, and barbarian is a DPS. They are eligible for role bonuses with their corresponding role and fill those roles when queuing for content."
that means... your entire bulshit about barbarians be now tanks is pure HAMSTER. the superiority of cws now is a pure "accident", not a intentional designe. since beta gwfs and now barbarians are MAIN DPS. cws, dont. simple like that.
so, you if you guys whant know more than the old devs and new devs, ok. i remember when gentlemancrush said that cws NEVER SHOULD HAVE CAUSED so much damage since beggining. NOW, BY A GAME DESIGNE/DECISION cws are damage dealers AS A GWF/BARBARIANS.
i have no words to explain how natural is block during battlerage. not barbarians, but this game need some agressive tanks setups.
too soon to conclusions, i think. is sad, but we need wait 3 or 4 modules of this new "era" to see. Right now the game is a burning building selling what has not yet been hit by the flames.