I always hate the underlying ethos of "all dedicated pvp players are evil" on these forums.
When I was a wee HR back in the early days of mod 2, HRs were never taken into dungeon parties during DD hour because our core mechanic - roots - used to add springy vines to the feet of mobs, and the meta at the time was for CWs to blow mob-packs off cliffs to make runs quicker... mobs that would suddenly bungee-jump back into play because the lovable HR had inadvertantly rooted them. ☺.
99% of my PVE experience on the HR in the early mods was "HAMSTER off HR lulz you suxxx" so natuarally, denied access to dungeons and the gear they provided by elitist and inconsiderate pve purists (like you guys), I gravitated to pvp as a source of decent gear. The learning curve in pvp in this game is steep, I'll agree, not to mention littered with exploiter gankfests, and this was in the era of premades and pvp dedicated guilds all using teamspeak to coordinate themselves. And here's me in my blue gear with my zero understanding of nodes and backcapping lol.
Still, since pvp was the only place where no-one kicked me for inconveniencing their speed runs, I persevered. Practice makes perfect. I became pretty good at the whole pvp thing, and remain so to this day. I play and enjoy both PVE and PVP, and frankly, your whole "this pvp bolt on HAMSTER should be abolished" is offensive. Pvp players in the past contributed more in terms of real money to this game than any other demograph of players, we kept the lights on in neverwinter so you could trot through your dungeons wiping out brainless mobs and bosses for the umpteenth time for whatever new shiny you wanted. New shiny that you didn't even need, because obviously, to get the new shiny, your old shiny was enough to succeed.
This isn't pen and paper DnD. This is a video game. A video game with one of the best live rpg combat systems going even still. Pvp is fun. Pvp is the only area of the game where that new shiny you grind actually has a point. Where knowing your class mechanics, and the class mechanics of everyone else, what rotations do what, what to expect from other players, positioning, predicting, when to sacrifice yourself and take one for the team actually matter much more if you want to win a close match.
I never get why you guys don't realise that the pve content in this game, any game, is carefully engineered so that you can win. The odds are always stacked ultimately in your favour. No dev ever sat down and said "hey let's make this new dungeon just INSANE". The pve purist's only real enemy is rng. Pvp however, has no such guarrentees. If the other team is better, you lose, every time. No rng involved. Lol, or at least not before solo-q.
Everything you accuse pvp of, everything you accuse pvp players of, you yourselves are equally guilty of. Understand that if nothing else, and have some HAMSTER consideration for people with preferences other than your own.
I'm sorry that your class of choice wasn't wanted and you had no chance to enjoy the content. That's how PVE players feel in PvP, BTW. I have been kicked from PvP for being too scrubb-y. I am a pen & paper dude. It's why I came to this game. I love the concept. I love the content. But I don't have access to a group right now, so this game is what gets me through. And it does have an amazing combat engine. It made PvP actually enjoyable for the first time. Half of the time. The half of the time I wasn't on a team that had my same gear and ''skill'' level. The other half of the time we got rolled over by the pre-mades. And that was okay. No one needs to win all the time. That was a fun 3 - 4 months. And then I hit level 60. and one fun match out of 2 or 3 became one out of 5... one out of ten... one out of 20. and then I hit level 70. I did not get a match where my team was able to be competitive for the last six months I bothered to queue. And that was before the solo-Q. I became one of those dungeon NPC's that some player farmed. Maybe if the PvP community had advocated for changes earlier... that's beside the point. The point is, PvP became irrelevant. Mostly because the population is too small. The population is too small, mostly because the environment is not in any way welcoming or rewarding for new players. That is not in any way the fault of PVE players that wouldn't set foot in PvP if you brought back the AD rewards.
I feel like I'm butting in on a conversation that doesn't involve me here but I saw at least one question here that specifically that caught my interest...
Speaking for myself, the short answer is because no one really likes to get unceremoniously beaten down every time they try something and after a few times of losing - badly, a lot of people just stop trying/playing.
It isn't that some players who like PVP are "evil", but a lot of them do seem to revel in the advantage they have over other players... "evil" no - inclined toward a bit of hubris and pomposity, maybe.
Some Neverwinter players are able to devote hours upon hours to farming and grinding stuff in PVE - or have the cash to buy stuff to give their characters an advantage...
Some Neverwinter players are not able to devote the time or the money to obtain better stuff.
Regardless of the method some players use to acquire better gear, enchantments, mounts or companions - to enhance their character's abilities, players are able to bring all of their obtained advantages from PVE to PVP...
Currently it appears PVP is crafted around player character levels, but using level 70 characters as an example - not all level 70 characters have equal stats.
You have some level 70 characters with added boons from high level enchantments, runestones, companions, mounts and boons from their Strongholds - while you have some level 70 characters who have none of those advantages, yet because they are all level 70 characters, they are thrown into PVP together.
My personal thoughts are everything that has been accumulated in PVE should stay in PVE and not be allowed to be brought into PVP, that way all players will be playing against opponents with the same or similar stats...
Then it will actually be "Player -vs-Player" not Players with the best "stuff" - against players who don't have that same advantage.
As @callumf#9018 said, PVP should be about player skill, tactics and "TEAMWORK" not who has the ability to accumulate the most or better "stuff"...
How welcoming is the PVE community to anyone who plays their class outside of the current meta..?
Try typing "Pvp toon lfg CR" into any PVE channel.
"I was too scrubby" Yes. You probably were, if you were less than 12 or 13k without your pet. And yes, if the match looked close, I'd kick you. Exactly as any toon in a high end dungeon would be kicked if they failed to pull their weight. This does not make the pvp enviroment any more 'unwelcoming' than say, a tong-queue to an inexperienced lowbie. Just practical.
"Unrewarding", yes it is, AD-wise. When there used to be a daily reward for playing 2 matches of pvp... all that happened was instances filled up with bots and minimum-item level alts. And where did those alts and bots come from..? In by far the main part - the pve community.
AD aside however, it is not unrewarding. In pvp I play the squishiest toon possible - an archer HR. Right now the entire HR class is probably the most disadvantaged class in pvp. And yet, as of yesterday I was 3rd on the board for number of kills.
Post edited by jonkoca on
No idea what my toon is now.
2
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
How welcoming is the PVE community to anyone who plays their class outside of the current meta..?
Depends on who you play with.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
How welcoming is the PVE community to anyone who plays their class outside of the current meta..?
Try typing "Pvp toon lfg CR" into any PVE channel.
"I was too scrubby" Yes. You probably were, if you were less than 12 or 13k without your pet. And yes, if the match looked close, I'd kick you. Exactly as any toon in a high end dungeon would be kicked if they failed to pull their weight. - snip -
Seems to me a lot of players have either forgotten or try to ignore what it was like when they were lower level players...
The best way for players to improve, get better gear and a higher item level is by being able to party with more experienced, higher level players... but when some of those higher level players are so self serving they are inclined to exclude leveling or improving players - simply for bragging rights -
-snip - ... as of yesterday I was 3rd on the board for number of kills.
As far as I'm concerned that says more about them than it does about the people who are at lower levels, but to each their own I guess.
This whole concept of "kicking" party members if they don't meet the standards of some self designated leader is to my experience a recent development. I remember playing Neverwinter when most of the time higher level players used to intentionally invite lower level players to join them so the lower level players could get experience, better gear and improve their playstyle... and thankfully there are still some folks like that out there.
I'd agree, if the starting conditions were similar.
PVE - you create a team - people from your guild, your friendlist, people you know, maybe at worst, you create a team of 4, go public Q and take pot luck. You begin. Unfortunately that 5th potluck guy is not so good. You get to the second boss, and it's a wipe. It's a wipe because that guy isn't doing his job, so, not to be mean spirited, your party sits at the campfire before trying the boss again, and tries to give the guy some pointers in chat. No response except 'let's go!". You try again. Wipe. Because that 5th guy does the same half-assed moves again... The timer's ticked past 15 minutes... You tried to carry the guy but...
PVP - SoloQ finally pops, you've been waiting a while. Nice !!! 7/10...8/10...9/10... And boom, you're in. Fighting in 5..4..3..2..1.. no time to chat, no time to inspect. Maybe a quick x to see who you're up against, in that second you have after you've popped your artifact and potted up. Off you all go, off spawn straight to mid. Except one guy rides to home. Leaving you 4 vs.5 on mid. Not great, but doable I guess. But the other team are good. Someone dies, 3vs5 now, mid is pretty much lost. Split, our Tr pushes their base, you go to back them up, or contest mid maybe, tie up the enemy toons. At least home is capped.
Match goes on. You start losing, not a total trainwreck, but losing steadily. You go down. 17 seconds before respawn. Time. You check x, that one guy, who rode to home, he's got 0 kills and 5 deaths. You inspect. He's got some blue gear and he's 7k. Great. Respawn, back into the fray.
Despite being technically 4 vs 5, your team pulls back a little, the match is almost tied. But then that guy, now 0 kills for 7 deaths decides he's going afk. You type "Play!!!" in chat in a couple of seconds you have between fighting. If you have the luxury. No response. The match starts going badly again... You're probably gonna lose if this continues... Someone types "our GF is 7k" in chat.
You're fighting, window pops 'vote to kick player x' you can't see the toon you're fighting anymore, that window's gotta go. You hit shift 1, and are relieved you didn't die in the interim.
Kicking in PVE and kicking in PVP are very different creatures. You can choose your team, we can't. You have time, and the luxury of trying again. We don't.
If someone wants to learn, practice, the place to do it is right there. A Private pvp instance, with a more experienced player, or group of friends. Or icewind dale, despite the pain it is to get there and sort out your side. The place to learn pvp is not in an actual goddamn match. Duh. Anymore than learning to do codg, or cr is without decent gear, watching a few youtube videos and asking some guildies to take you.
I, we, haven't 'forgotten what it was like' - condescend to me some more btw. - cool move, but we expect someone to take pvp seriously, just as you would expect someone to take your runs seriously, if they wanted to run with you.
"Get better gear" Again we see the difference between pve progression and pvp progression. In pve, to get better gear, you have to - wait for it - play pve content. You get the gear, and get to practice your mad pve skillz while you do it... win win. In pvp however, to get better gear you have to - wait for it - play pve content. Lol.
Literally, if someone wanted, they could inspect me, read my archer guide, copy my entire build down to the last degree... Without ever actually setting foot in pvp.
You forgot that maybe..? Or are you just ignoring the issue..?
@jonkoca - not that you are wrong here m8 - as all you typed above is true, but 1 issue remains - the game needs to be tchnicaly ready for pvp - Neverwinter is not - or to be more precise - not any more.
Remember chultan ring with partial paralysys? Thats just one, simplest of examples why it wont work out. Game need to be designed form its very beginning as pve/pvp hybrid to make it working - best so far had long dead warhammer online, where every toone literally grow up in close proximity of pvp and was getting used to that. And best pat was that if you wanted to get to best pve content you needed to take access to it from enemy players. And no1 was comlaining for that as it was just a way of that game. Here in Neverwinter pvp was always a addition, and while pvp lake was added in ID it wont make this game pvp/pve hybrid. Not that its impossible - but at this state of the game, it is simply to complicated/costly to be taken into serious consideration by the devs.
I, we, haven't 'forgotten what it was like' - condescend to me some more btw. - cool move, but we expect someone to take pvp seriously, just as you would expect someone to take your runs seriously, if they wanted to run with you.
"Get better gear" Again we see the difference between pve progression and pvp progression. In pve, to get better gear, you have to - wait for it - play pve content. You get the gear, and get to practice your mad pve skillz while you do it... win win. In pvp however, to get better gear you have to - wait for it - play pve content. Lol.
Literally, if someone wanted, they could inspect me, read my archer guide, copy my entire build down to the last degree... Without ever actually setting foot in pvp.
You forgot that maybe..? Or are you just ignoring the issue..?
No condescending remark was directed at any specific person here. I said: "some people have forgotten..." if you feel this applies to you, that's on you - not me.
So we're supposed to play PVP to get better gear for PVP ?
I ask you to pardon me since I'm no expert on the subject, I abandoned PVP years ago, but I believe there are still things that can only be purchased in PVP, only purchase them with Glory (the currency earned in PVP) and you can't purchase much of anything if you don't win matches... am I wrong?
Exactly how much Glory (the currency in PVP) does a player get for repeatedly getting killed, having to resurrect and run back to the battle (if they don't get killed again along the way) and consequently losing?
The last I knew PVP gear costs anywhere from 200 Glory (lowest level) to 2,400 Glory (highest level) to purchase...
Then there are the potions requiring Glory to purchase -
Battle Potion of Minor Healing (1 Glory)
Battle Potion of Lesser Healing (4 Glory)
Battle Potion of Healing (7 Glory)
Battle Potion of Greater Healing (11 Glory)
Battle Potion of Major Healing (15 Glory)
Battle Potion of Superior Healing (35 Glory)
Considering the last time I went into PVP I got 20 points for an “assisted kill” (I had a 5 whole Glory left after buying one healing potion) – I took a wild guess at how many times I’d have to play PVP just to buy gear, then tried to figure how many healing potions I’d have to buy just to survive an entire competition and then thought about all the times I’d have to buy new gear to level up and additional potions to compete… and decided I probably wouldn’t live that long unless I did nothing but PVP for the rest of my life (OK, many I exaggerate a little), but suffice it to say from trying to figure out what I was likely to earn -vs- what I was likely to spend and the fact that most of the PVP items are only good in PVP – I no longer play PVP.
I have previously contended and still believe one of the most serious things wrong with PVP and why more people don't play, is because people obtain things in PVE - then they're allowed to bring that stuff into PVP giving them a clear advantage over people who:
Can't spend hours grinding,
Can't afford to spend RW money,
Don't belong to a guild with a lot of boons.
Am I wrong on that as well?
If I were in charge of designing or I suppose re-designing PVP –
Player -vs-Player competition would once again be about players -vs- players and not about who had the best "stuff",
Every player would enter PVP stripped of all their Boons, Gear, and enhancements, companion and mount bonuses earned in PVE,
Every player would be issued new generic class specific armor and weapons of identical item levels every time they entered PVP,
PVP play would be tiered according to character level with no more than 10 character levels difference between contestants on both teams,
PVP players would be able to join permanent standing “teams” (like guilds) and be able to schedule dates and times for getting together to play – with substitutions allowed from random player pool if someone on the team can’t attend on a given date/time.
PVP rewards would be Gold, Astral Diamonds and of course bragging rights.
One of the interesting things Path Of Exile does is they have a 2 month or so event where its complete sandboxed from the rest of the game and everyone starts new. They give special rewards and at the end you can move any gear you earned to the live environment.
So maybe a PVP where everyone starts out butt naked and LV 70 for a month or so.
One of the interesting things Path Of Exile does is they have a 2 month or so event where its complete sandboxed from the rest of the game and everyone starts new. They give special rewards and at the end you can move any gear you earned to the live environment.
So maybe a PVP where everyone starts out butt naked and LV 70 for a month or so.
Interesting idea.
Also from my pvp time in Guild Wars [1 year played so a LOT of pvp matches] in that game everyone more or less starts out in pvp at the same level.
But yes indeed - remove items and all boons from pvp and let players pick up and equip stuff only from what is available in the instance/quest/arena - like in Minecraft pvp
Comments
Speaking for myself, the short answer is because no one really likes to get unceremoniously beaten down every time they try something and after a few times of losing - badly, a lot of people just stop trying/playing.
It isn't that some players who like PVP are "evil", but a lot of them do seem to revel in the advantage they have over other players... "evil" no - inclined toward a bit of hubris and pomposity, maybe.
Some Neverwinter players are able to devote hours upon hours to farming and grinding stuff in PVE - or have the cash to buy stuff to give their characters an advantage...
Some Neverwinter players are not able to devote the time or the money to obtain better stuff.
Regardless of the method some players use to acquire better gear, enchantments, mounts or companions - to enhance their character's abilities, players are able to bring all of their obtained advantages from PVE to PVP...
Currently it appears PVP is crafted around player character levels, but using level 70 characters as an example - not all level 70 characters have equal stats.
You have some level 70 characters with added boons from high level enchantments, runestones, companions, mounts and boons from their Strongholds - while you have some level 70 characters who have none of those advantages, yet because they are all level 70 characters, they are thrown into PVP together.
My personal thoughts are everything that has been accumulated in PVE should stay in PVE and not be allowed to be brought into PVP, that way all players will be playing against opponents with the same or similar stats...
Then it will actually be "Player -vs-Player" not Players with the best "stuff" - against players who don't have that same advantage.
As @callumf#9018 said, PVP should be about player skill, tactics and "TEAMWORK" not who has the ability to accumulate the most or better "stuff"...
Just my 2¢
Try typing "Pvp toon lfg CR" into any PVE channel.
"I was too scrubby" Yes. You probably were, if you were less than 12 or 13k without your pet. And yes, if the match looked close, I'd kick you. Exactly as any toon in a high end dungeon would be kicked if they failed to pull their weight. This does not make the pvp enviroment any more 'unwelcoming' than say, a tong-queue to an inexperienced lowbie. Just practical.
"Unrewarding", yes it is, AD-wise. When there used to be a daily reward for playing 2 matches of pvp... all that happened was instances filled up with bots and minimum-item level alts. And where did those alts and bots come from..? In by far the main part - the pve community.
AD aside however, it is not unrewarding. In pvp I play the squishiest toon possible - an archer HR. Right now the entire HR class is probably the most disadvantaged class in pvp. And yet, as of yesterday I was 3rd on the board for number of kills.
The best way for players to improve, get better gear and a higher item level is by being able to party with more experienced, higher level players... but when some of those higher level players are so self serving they are inclined to exclude leveling or improving players - simply for bragging rights - As far as I'm concerned that says more about them than it does about the people who are at lower levels, but to each their own I guess.
This whole concept of "kicking" party members if they don't meet the standards of some self designated leader is to my experience a recent development. I remember playing Neverwinter when most of the time higher level players used to intentionally invite lower level players to join them so the lower level players could get experience, better gear and improve their playstyle... and thankfully there are still some folks like that out there.
I'd agree, if the starting conditions were similar.
PVE - you create a team - people from your guild, your friendlist, people you know, maybe at worst, you create a team of 4, go public Q and take pot luck. You begin. Unfortunately that 5th potluck guy is not so good. You get to the second boss, and it's a wipe. It's a wipe because that guy isn't doing his job, so, not to be mean spirited, your party sits at the campfire before trying the boss again, and tries to give the guy some pointers in chat. No response except 'let's go!". You try again. Wipe. Because that 5th guy does the same half-assed moves again... The timer's ticked past 15 minutes... You tried to carry the guy but...
PVP - SoloQ finally pops, you've been waiting a while. Nice !!! 7/10...8/10...9/10... And boom, you're in. Fighting in 5..4..3..2..1.. no time to chat, no time to inspect. Maybe a quick x to see who you're up against, in that second you have after you've popped your artifact and potted up. Off you all go, off spawn straight to mid. Except one guy rides to home. Leaving you 4 vs.5 on mid. Not great, but doable I guess. But the other team are good. Someone dies, 3vs5 now, mid is pretty much lost. Split, our Tr pushes their base, you go to back them up, or contest mid maybe, tie up the enemy toons. At least home is capped.
Match goes on. You start losing, not a total trainwreck, but losing steadily. You go down. 17 seconds before respawn. Time. You check x, that one guy, who rode to home, he's got 0 kills and 5 deaths. You inspect. He's got some blue gear and he's 7k. Great. Respawn, back into the fray.
Despite being technically 4 vs 5, your team pulls back a little, the match is almost tied. But then that guy, now 0 kills for 7 deaths decides he's going afk. You type "Play!!!" in chat in a couple of seconds you have between fighting. If you have the luxury. No response. The match starts going badly again... You're probably gonna lose if this continues... Someone types "our GF is 7k" in chat.
You're fighting, window pops 'vote to kick player x' you can't see the toon you're fighting anymore, that window's gotta go. You hit shift 1, and are relieved you didn't die in the interim.
Kicking in PVE and kicking in PVP are very different creatures. You can choose your team, we can't. You have time, and the luxury of trying again. We don't.
If someone wants to learn, practice, the place to do it is right there. A Private pvp instance, with a more experienced player, or group of friends. Or icewind dale, despite the pain it is to get there and sort out your side. The place to learn pvp is not in an actual goddamn match. Duh. Anymore than learning to do codg, or cr is without decent gear, watching a few youtube videos and asking some guildies to take you.
I, we, haven't 'forgotten what it was like' - condescend to me some more btw. - cool move, but we expect someone to take pvp seriously, just as you would expect someone to take your runs seriously, if they wanted to run with you.
"Get better gear" Again we see the difference between pve progression and pvp progression. In pve, to get better gear, you have to - wait for it - play pve content. You get the gear, and get to practice your mad pve skillz while you do it... win win. In pvp however, to get better gear you have to - wait for it - play pve content. Lol.
Literally, if someone wanted, they could inspect me, read my archer guide, copy my entire build down to the last degree... Without ever actually setting foot in pvp.
You forgot that maybe..? Or are you just ignoring the issue..?
Remember chultan ring with partial paralysys? Thats just one, simplest of examples why it wont work out. Game need to be designed form its very beginning as pve/pvp hybrid to make it working - best so far had long dead warhammer online, where every toone literally grow up in close proximity of pvp and was getting used to that. And best pat was that if you wanted to get to best pve content you needed to take access to it from enemy players. And no1 was comlaining for that as it was just a way of that game. Here in Neverwinter pvp was always a addition, and while pvp lake was added in ID it wont make this game pvp/pve hybrid. Not that its impossible - but at this state of the game, it is simply to complicated/costly to be taken into serious consideration by the devs.
So we're supposed to play PVP to get better gear for PVP ?
I ask you to pardon me since I'm no expert on the subject, I abandoned PVP years ago, but I believe there are still things that can only be purchased in PVP, only purchase them with Glory (the currency earned in PVP) and you can't purchase much of anything if you don't win matches... am I wrong?
Exactly how much Glory (the currency in PVP) does a player get for repeatedly getting killed, having to resurrect and run back to the battle (if they don't get killed again along the way) and consequently losing?
The last I knew PVP gear costs anywhere from 200 Glory (lowest level) to 2,400 Glory (highest level) to purchase...
Then there are the potions requiring Glory to purchase -
- Battle Potion of Minor Healing (1 Glory)
- Battle Potion of Lesser Healing (4 Glory)
- Battle Potion of Healing (7 Glory)
- Battle Potion of Greater Healing (11 Glory)
- Battle Potion of Major Healing (15 Glory)
- Battle Potion of Superior Healing (35 Glory)
Considering the last time I went into PVP I got 20 points for an “assisted kill” (I had a 5 whole Glory left after buying one healing potion) – I took a wild guess at how many times I’d have to play PVP just to buy gear, then tried to figure how many healing potions I’d have to buy just to survive an entire competition and then thought about all the times I’d have to buy new gear to level up and additional potions to compete… and decided I probably wouldn’t live that long unless I did nothing but PVP for the rest of my life (OK, many I exaggerate a little), but suffice it to say from trying to figure out what I was likely to earn -vs- what I was likely to spend and the fact that most of the PVP items are only good in PVP – I no longer play PVP.I have previously contended and still believe one of the most serious things wrong with PVP and why more people don't play, is because people obtain things in PVE - then they're allowed to bring that stuff into PVP giving them a clear advantage over people who:
- Can't spend hours grinding,
- Can't afford to spend RW money,
- Don't belong to a guild with a lot of boons.
Am I wrong on that as well?If I were in charge of designing or I suppose re-designing PVP –
- Player -vs-Player competition would once again be about players -vs- players and not about who had the best "stuff",
- Every player would enter PVP stripped of all their Boons, Gear, and enhancements, companion and mount bonuses earned in PVE,
- Every player would be issued new generic class specific armor and weapons of identical item levels every time they entered PVP,
- PVP play would be tiered according to character level with no more than 10 character levels difference between contestants on both teams,
- PVP players would be able to join permanent standing “teams” (like guilds) and be able to schedule dates and times for getting together to play – with substitutions allowed from random player pool if someone on the team can’t attend on a given date/time.
- PVP rewards would be Gold, Astral Diamonds and of course bragging rights.
But anyway those are just my thoughts.So maybe a PVP where everyone starts out butt naked and LV 70 for a month or so.
Also from my pvp time in Guild Wars [1 year played so a LOT of pvp matches] in that game everyone more or less starts out in pvp at the same level.
But yes indeed - remove items and all boons from pvp and let players pick up and equip stuff only from what is available in the instance/quest/arena - like in Minecraft pvp