I am perfectly, absolutely fine with the 100K limit, and hope it will result in a somewhat healthier economy.
I expect some items to drop in price - unbound dungeon drops and masterwork items for example, but the price of other items that originate in the Zen store like coalescent wards should not change much.
The main reason I support this, though, is that it discourages people from running multiple alts through the various dungeons - alts that are frequently undergeared and rely on others carrying them. I hope more people will actually be running the content because they enjoy it - and not just for the rAD.
You realise that this change comes hand in hand with a major change in how the cap can be reached? That only one toon per day can achieve the first time RAD reward for dungeons, and the random queue with all the Epic Dungeons (up to CN) can be run by 9k characters?
The best model to run on this new system involves running a different toon every day so that you can take advantage of, first run bonuses as well as weeklies and, more importantly enough Invoke RAD bonus to boost everything earned by 50%.
Running a "main" every day means you only get one day's worth of invoke bonus, meaning that they would STILL need to use alts on salvage runs to hit anywhere near the 100k.
1 9k toon needs to do one each of the two lowest tier RQs for a (pre VIP) total of 20'000 RAD. six weeklies for 24'000 then whatever they deem the most efficient way to hit 22k in salvage. (a lot less if VIP is involved) to hit roughly 66.66k RAD. Since that toon does nothing else the rest of the week, they have a full 7 day's Invoke bonus, so they hit the 100k cap. If they can also run the 15k RAD queue its even less salvage, or salvage they can pass on to tomorrows toon.
Hope is a wonderful thing, but hoping this is going to see alts not running dungeons as often is likely to lead to disappointment.
I for one will be running a lot more alts on RQ dungeon runs than my "main". Some of whom currently can't get in via Random Epic Queues.
What i would do is this: i'd change the system to make it so that higher iLvL on characters= higher RAD cap. For the main toon, i'd say start with a 100k RAD cap, raise by 10k every 1k iLvl points past 13k. So, a toon with a 15k main and all 4k alts, will get only 120k RAD cap, a player with a 14k main will get 110k and a player with a 13k main (easy to reach). will get the 100k RAD limit. After that, for each alt that gets iLvL of, say, 12k, the account cap is raised by 20k with more difficult but more rewarding ways to earn those RADs and reach the cap. Every 1k iLvL past 13k, similar to what happens to mains, the limit is increased by 10k (so an alt at 14k will increase the daily RAD limit by 30k). Developing alts is expensive in both time and ADs, so it's an AD sink. If the devs want people to not just "create" alts to farm stuff, but also play them, they must give some sort of "reward" for those who spend time and ADs to develop multiple alts. Else, people will just keep focusing on 1 toon and create undergeared alts to get carried and farm RQs. This way, a player who spent time and ADs developing a main at, say, 14k, and then 2 alts at 12k, will in return earn more daily ADs (110k+20k+20k= 150k).
You get rid of the bot, reward people sinking ADs and time in alts development, and ensure that players won't create armies of undergeared alts to run content and farm RADs.
The questions are: Can you build a character 14K without having any campaign boon but with SH boon? Can you equip a toon you have no intention to play to have all 500 ilevel gear (from seal), all the cheap but high ranking enchantment/runestone, etc just to make it 14K without really playing the toon at all?
the best you are going to do w r7 and r8s and high end alt gear and boons w very little work boons (other than sh) or ad spent is about 11k
the best you are going to do w r7 and r8s and high end alt gear and boons w very little work boons (other than sh) or ad spent is about 11k
The mod 14 "high end alt gear" is what many near BiS players are now sporting in mod 13. There won't even be anything like the league gear that came in mod 12. Just straight to the best mod 12/13 stuff. So I think it's going to be a bit more than 11K.
I already seen a number toons in primal gear that aren't good. Presumably, their main is good enough to grind ToNG/CoDG to equip these alts. In mod14, you just need to be able to do leveling dungeons to get the same gear.
The only possible scenario in which I would muck about with multiple accounts is if Cryptic started handing out real money - then I might be tempted to quit my day job and get cracking - otherwise, that's the kind of stuff that drives me insane. At that point when you're no longer playing a game to play a game, it's really time to go find another game to play, or maybe go get a rake and started doing some yard work.
Keep in mind that we will still not see Double AD (really RAD) events for a long time.
Think about it those events are still going to be huge problems for the economy.
Basically with the changes all of that RAD will still be generated but it will just trickle into the economy slower. Kind of like how a run off pond works for large buildings or parking lots. They prevent the instant flood but makes the water higher than normal for a longer time.
So ? After all those reactions, have Cryptic Developer changed their mind about AD/day (upgrading limit to 200K, finaly dont't implement this change, ...) ? Or is it definitive, without hearing what players have wrote ?
So ? After all those reactions, have Cryptic Developer changed their mind about AD/day (upgrading limit to 200K, finaly dont't implement this change, ...) ? Or is it definitive, without hearing what players have wrote ?
Let me give you a hint - remember an old "bonding nerf" thread on forum? Statement then silence. Sounds familiar?
So ? After all those reactions, have Cryptic Developer changed their mind about AD/day (upgrading limit to 200K, finaly dont't implement this change, ...) ? Or is it definitive, without hearing what players have wrote ?
I don't think so, they're probably going through with this anyway... personally i'd like to see a change in the Random Queues department with leaving the bonus for runs per character as they are right now.
In the end, players are just going to get more accounts, these changes won't have any affect on the ZAX, and only those that are new to the game or continue to play with a single account will have to deal with these restrictions.
So ? After all those reactions, have Cryptic Developer changed their mind about AD/day (upgrading limit to 200K, finaly dont't implement this change, ...) ? Or is it definitive, without hearing what players have wrote ?
I don't think so, they're probably going through with this anyway... personally i'd like to see a change in the Random Queues department with leaving the bonus for runs per character as they are right now.
In the end, many players are just going to get more accounts, these changes won't have any affect on the ZAX, and only those that are new to the game or continue to play with a single account will have to play with these changes really.
No, they wont change that. Lets be honest here. If first run on every toon brings multiple times more rAD then any subsequent run on that toon then...... And on top of that - even if any1 will bother to create more accounts it will be much more time consuming to get same amount of rAD, not to mention the dificulty to move them form one account to another - that can be done only via AH, and that means at least 10% of tax, not to mention some amount of AD one have to left for postal fee. And then again such transfer activity would be similar to botting, and as such would be banhammer vunerable.
Nah, thats gona end up on live server as you see it now. With time they might do some adjustments but dont expect any major changes now.
So ? After all those reactions, have Cryptic Developer changed their mind about AD/day (upgrading limit to 200K, finaly dont't implement this change, ...) ? Or is it definitive, without hearing what players have wrote ?
I don't think so, they're probably going through with this anyway... personally i'd like to see a change in the Random Queues department with leaving the bonus for runs per character as they are right now.
In the end, players are just going to get more accounts, these changes won't have any affect on the ZAX, and only those that are new to the game or continue to play with a single account will have to deal with these restrictions.
No, they wont change that. Lets be honest here. If first run on every toon brings multiple times more rAD then any subsequent run on that toon then...... And on top of that - even if any1 will bother to create more accounts it will be much more time consuming to get same amount of rAD, not to mention the dificulty to move them form one account to another - that can be done only via AH, and that means at least 10% of tax, not to mention some amount of AD one have to left for postal fee. And then again such transfer activity would be similar to botting, and as such would be banhammer vunerable.
Nah, thats gona end up on live server as you see it now. With time they might do some adjustments but dont expect any major changes now.
Since this was announced early enough, it's giving players time to "adapt", and i bet that a good number of players allready have several alt. accounts, some of them even with ViP up and running...
I mean, why would those players use the AH to transfer AD to their main account through similar ways like botters, with the extra risk of catching a bann at some point, when it's much easier and safer to only sell enough of the loot from lockboxes to keep ViP going on the alt. accounts, while moving the rest of the loot through the guild bank to their main account?
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
One more question, do you really think that these restrictions are going to actually limit players, that have around 50 characters on their main account?
Anyway, just saying vet. players are going to find ways around these new restrictions...
Post edited by regenerde on
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
1
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited June 2018
I saw a lot comments about " ad sink needed " and some poeple like the 100k ad limit idea which for me is not good idea because the gap between new and old player increases with so much poor decisions. A new player when will able to do castle ravenloft with 3m astral diamonds per month?
IF ad sink need and if the " fight with bots need sacrifices" do then something simple please: STrip all accounts and keep those antibot-anti much ad changes , problem solved no gap between old and new players.
I Have a question also why we allowed to have 56 characters when the classes are not even 10?
I saw a lot comments about " ad sink needed " and some poeple like the 100k ad limit idea which for me is not good idea because the gap between new and old player increases with so much poor decisions. A new player when will able to do castle ravenloft with 3m astral diamonds per month?
With easy access to primal gear, the new player should be able to do the ravenloft campaign. Castle Ravenloft? They won't get in. But I won't feel bad for them. I have 14K non-guild toons and been around since mod 2. I doubt I will be able get in to castle ravenloft. Heck, I can't even get into ToNG or CoDG outside the queue, which has been a disaster each time. The end game queue is just too elite. And I expect it to be the same for mod 14. Until the devs do something about it, only small percentage of people in max guilds will be able to do the end game runs.
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
I may be mistaken, unless the max guilds can take in lots of new alt accounts, all the alt accounts will have to feed a private guild bank. Eventually, you have to get those assets to the main toon. Such money (AD) laundering activities should be more easily detectable, risking the main account.
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,421Arc User
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
I may be mistaken, unless the max guilds can take in lots of new alt accounts, all the alt accounts will have to feed a private guild bank. Eventually, you have to get those assets to the main toon. Such money (AD) laundering activities should be more easily detectable, risking the main account.
How do you detect a private guild bank? If one creates 10 accounts with 2 characters each and join a guild, how do you know it is a private guild bank without some time consuming detective work?
N accounts join a guild + 1 alt from main account to join it. Resources (not AD) can pass through the private guild to the alt of main account -> shared bank -> main character. This is not even new. Many people has been doing that for a long time. If Cryptic wants to catch people who has many accounts, they can and they did. But, that was some detective work and these people who got caught did more than just having many accounts alone.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
I may be mistaken, unless the max guilds can take in lots of new alt accounts, all the alt accounts will have to feed a private guild bank. Eventually, you have to get those assets to the main toon. Such money (AD) laundering activities should be more easily detectable, risking the main account.
How do you detect a private guild bank? If one creates 10 accounts with 2 characters each and join a guild, how do you know it is a private guild bank without some time consuming detective work?
N accounts join a guild + 1 alt from main account to join it. Resources (not AD) can pass through the private guild to the alt of main account -> shared bank -> main character. This is not even new. Many people has been doing that for a long time. If Cryptic wants to catch people who has many accounts, they can and they did. But, that was some detective work and these people who got caught did more than just having many accounts alone.
yeah teh amount of people who would go to that kind of work (And I think some expense) to work around this is going to be like .00000001 percent of the population if that high. I'm gonna guess maybe three people do it out of stubborn.. ppl are vocal here but I just don't think that many people will be affected or care that much about this in reality.
IMHO, what's going to happen is that in the short-medium term, AD earning will decline significantly for semi-serious players. Lockbox binging will drop drastically and as a result, AH prices will rise dramatically for rare but desirable items (mounts, companions, etc.). Remember when legendary mounts cost 14-20mil? Yeah. The lucky few will turn millionaires in a day and the rest will rage quit or find creative ways of generating AD. It will not increase player spending of $$$. Some of us are still upset about coalgate, keygate, and the recent bonding nerf. Others learn quickly. The unfavorable changes have done one thing and one thing only...screwed players in a very bad way and put many players in a 'Us vs. Them' mode that is terrible for business.
-- product design rant -- The problem with data driven decisions -- supposedly, how the designers/devs analyse the game and decide on adjustments -- is that it usually misses the human element entirely. The problem with designing in a non user centric method is that you tend to miss the innovation sweet spot, putting out offerings and products that are good financially but are not actually desirable. For example, data will show players leaving the game but it won't reflect player sentiment. And until they change their dev methodology to focus on desirability first, our feedback is essentially useless.
Of course, we can and should give feedback but the devs only look at it for tweaks. It is ALWAYS too late in the dev process for them to redesign stuff. Once things are in preview they have been coded. Money sunk into them. They are in to stay.
The software industry has been moving away from such development practices for close to a decade because there is a realization that you must focus on what customers actually want if your company is to survive. But Cryptic hasn't gotten the memo and the fact that they have failed to move to proper Agile speaks volumes about their dev process and product owners. -- end rant --
I expect the devs think they will be able to get away with the occasional 2xAD event to "adjust" the economy. Except those of us who have played long enough still remember how bad these were for the economy. They could increase the drop of ADs in XP rewards too, but in both cases, there will still be that account refinement cap that will render it pointless.
So, personally, I have resigned to the fact that I will simply have to wait a few mods for the inevitable rollback/change or the demise of the game. For all we know, they are just keeping afloat until MTG debuts and maybe then put the game in maintenance mode. Either way, I won't risk my money in the upcoming sales. It's like doing business with Darth Vader.
hey Devs, what about "XP overflow" rewards? when if lucky to get 30k ADs, but "Oops! Capped" and these ADs are gone, bounced off to nothingness." now you want everyone to 'spread out the alts' on limited cap earning, not realizing that some players want their alts on same pages and done for weekly AD quests. i played 5 alts and that cap only set for 4 alts on account. then when you release new playable class, it wont work that way, too restrictive when i want to add new class to play.
to me, what i see, major cut back on dungeon running, major heroic encounter runs, and other stuffs that deals with salvagings. then what happen when someone new or played at odd times and no one doing heroic encounters and they cant finished without help or from zerging runs. it seem that you put handcuffs on, and all that work you created for players to have fun just wasted your time. kinda like an author wrote a book, 900 pages long, and you locked it away after someone barely read 2-3 paragraphs, it tease the readers wonder what next, then next day, and the readers forget what was happen before.
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
I may be mistaken, unless the max guilds can take in lots of new alt accounts, all the alt accounts will have to feed a private guild bank. Eventually, you have to get those assets to the main toon. Such money (AD) laundering activities should be more easily detectable, risking the main account.
How do you detect a private guild bank? If one creates 10 accounts with 2 characters each and join a guild, how do you know it is a private guild bank without some time consuming detective work?
N accounts join a guild + 1 alt from main account to join it. Resources (not AD) can pass through the private guild to the alt of main account -> shared bank -> main character. This is not even new. Many people has been doing that for a long time. If Cryptic wants to catch people who has many accounts, they can and they did. But, that was some detective work and these people who got caught did more than just having many accounts alone.
yeah teh amount of people who would go to that kind of work (And I think some expense) to work around this is going to be like .00000001 percent of the population if that high. I'm gonna guess maybe three people do it out of stubborn.. ppl are vocal here but I just don't think that many people will be affected or care that much about this in reality.
Well, i think you might have to calculate that percentage a bit higher - you're forgetting people, that are currently mildly annoyed with certain game changes, but might get very angry when this particular change goes live without any tweaks. Especially those people, that have invested time and/or real money into more character slots and alt. characters. And anger can drive people to do some crazy things...
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
I may be mistaken, unless the max guilds can take in lots of new alt accounts, all the alt accounts will have to feed a private guild bank. Eventually, you have to get those assets to the main toon. Such money (AD) laundering activities should be more easily detectable, risking the main account.
Even if they waste time and money on finding those kind of "banking" guilds... what are the GMs going to do? Sure, you're only allowed to have a certain amount of accounts per person or something like that, but as long as the players don't use any bots and play those characters normal, there's no ground for a ban here.
Besides, if all the AD moving from here to there were that easy to detect, we probably wouldn't be seeing any AD sellers anymore, since they wouldn't be able to do their business... And while the advertisement spam has slowed down a lot over the last few months, this whole AD thing might just bring the AD sellers more "customers" in the end.
I really doubt, that this change is going to encourage players to spend their money on ZEN, or to buy more DLCs...
Post edited by regenerde on
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
0
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Officially, isn't it "one account per person"?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Since AD refinement is going to be capped, can we at least go back to being directly awarded Rough AD for invokes instead of the bonus? That would at least add some value to having multiple toons by reducing the grind for salvage to get to the cap. That would give players more time to focus on content they wanted to play for fun or advancement.
How do you detect a private guild bank? If one creates 10 accounts with 2 characters each and join a guild, how do you know it is a private guild bank without some time consuming detective work?
They probably have systems to identify possible AD sellers. I don't it would be too hard to enhance them to identify possible accounts being used this way.
Comments
I already seen a number toons in primal gear that aren't good. Presumably, their main is good enough to grind ToNG/CoDG to equip these alts. In mod14, you just need to be able to do leveling dungeons to get the same gear.
what the hell 10k limit? If that is comming im out. Its roo mutch . I thinks this game chnage roo pay to play.
Never change a running system.
I'll only be making 8,000 RAD a day anyway!
Think about it those events are still going to be huge problems for the economy.
Basically with the changes all of that RAD will still be generated but it will just trickle into the economy slower. Kind of like how a run off pond works for large buildings or parking lots. They prevent the instant flood but makes the water higher than normal for a longer time.
After all those reactions, have Cryptic Developer changed their mind about AD/day (upgrading limit to 200K, finaly dont't implement this change, ...) ?
Or is it definitive, without hearing what players have wrote ?
Statement then silence. Sounds familiar?
In the end, players are just going to get more accounts, these changes won't have any affect on the ZAX, and only those that are new to the game or continue to play with a single account will have to deal with these restrictions.
And then again such transfer activity would be similar to botting, and as such would be banhammer vunerable.
Nah, thats gona end up on live server as you see it now. With time they might do some adjustments but dont expect any major changes now.
I mean, why would those players use the AH to transfer AD to their main account through similar ways like botters, with the extra risk of catching a bann at some point, when it's much easier and safer to only sell enough of the loot from lockboxes to keep ViP going on the alt. accounts, while moving the rest of the loot through the guild bank to their main account?
What are they going to do then? Are they going to bann players for using the guild bank?
One more question, do you really think that these restrictions are going to actually limit players, that have around 50 characters on their main account?
Anyway, just saying vet. players are going to find ways around these new restrictions...
A new player when will able to do castle ravenloft with 3m astral diamonds per month?
IF ad sink need and if the " fight with bots need sacrifices" do then something simple please:
STrip all accounts and keep those antibot-anti much ad changes , problem solved no gap between old and new players.
I Have a question also why we allowed to have 56 characters when the classes are not even 10?
N accounts join a guild + 1 alt from main account to join it.
Resources (not AD) can pass through the private guild to the alt of main account -> shared bank -> main character.
This is not even new. Many people has been doing that for a long time.
If Cryptic wants to catch people who has many accounts, they can and they did. But, that was some detective work and these people who got caught did more than just having many accounts alone.
-- product design rant --
The problem with data driven decisions -- supposedly, how the designers/devs analyse the game and decide on adjustments -- is that it usually misses the human element entirely. The problem with designing in a non user centric method is that you tend to miss the innovation sweet spot, putting out offerings and products that are good financially but are not actually desirable. For example, data will show players leaving the game but it won't reflect player sentiment. And until they change their dev methodology to focus on desirability first, our feedback is essentially useless.
Of course, we can and should give feedback but the devs only look at it for tweaks. It is ALWAYS too late in the dev process for them to redesign stuff. Once things are in preview they have been coded. Money sunk into them. They are in to stay.
The software industry has been moving away from such development practices for close to a decade because there is a realization that you must focus on what customers actually want if your company is to survive. But Cryptic hasn't gotten the memo and the fact that they have failed to move to proper Agile speaks volumes about their dev process and product owners.
-- end rant --
I expect the devs think they will be able to get away with the occasional 2xAD event to "adjust" the economy. Except those of us who have played long enough still remember how bad these were for the economy. They could increase the drop of ADs in XP rewards too, but in both cases, there will still be that account refinement cap that will render it pointless.
So, personally, I have resigned to the fact that I will simply have to wait a few mods for the inevitable rollback/change or the demise of the game. For all we know, they are just keeping afloat until MTG debuts and maybe then put the game in maintenance mode. Either way, I won't risk my money in the upcoming sales. It's like doing business with Darth Vader.
now you want everyone to 'spread out the alts' on limited cap earning, not realizing that some players want their alts on same pages and done for weekly AD quests. i played 5 alts and that cap only set for 4 alts on account.
then when you release new playable class, it wont work that way, too restrictive when i want to add new class to play.
to me, what i see, major cut back on dungeon running, major heroic encounter runs, and other stuffs that deals with salvagings.
then what happen when someone new or played at odd times and no one doing heroic encounters and they cant finished without help or from zerging runs.
it seem that you put handcuffs on, and all that work you created for players to have fun just wasted your time.
kinda like an author wrote a book, 900 pages long, and you locked it away after someone barely read 2-3 paragraphs, it tease the readers wonder what next, then next day, and the readers forget what was happen before.
Especially those people, that have invested time and/or real money into more character slots and alt. characters. And anger can drive people to do some crazy things...
Sure, you're only allowed to have a certain amount of accounts per person or something like that, but as long as the players don't use any bots and play those characters normal, there's no ground for a ban here.
Besides, if all the AD moving from here to there were that easy to detect, we probably wouldn't be seeing any AD sellers anymore, since they wouldn't be able to do their business...
And while the advertisement spam has slowed down a lot over the last few months, this whole AD thing might just bring the AD sellers more "customers" in the end.
I really doubt, that this change is going to encourage players to spend their money on ZEN, or to buy more DLCs...