demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Saying 15k means nothing... you could have all your points in int, con, and be full mobility lifesteal... your damage won't be that of someone who focused on critical and power at 15k
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The issue for a long time has been that PVP and PVE were not seperated propperly. Everytime the community of PVP players moans about TR's they get a nerf, and another, and another, which directly impacts PVE. They (the developers) need to finally seperate the 2 modes, even if that means balancing every class twice. Either that or remove PVP.
I stopped playing my rogue 2 mods ago, it just becomes harder to tolerate the neglect that the class receives. Stealth seems to be a big complaint in PVP (even though its the only class mechanic in the game that the devs have provided a counter for with stealth sight rings). But in PVE the mechanic isnt viable anymore. End game enemies see through stealth anyway and most good rogues pretty much always crit outside of stealth....pointless.
The class needs a full rework, from the ground up because right now the TR excels at nothing. But its pointless to even start the process if the future of such changes are dictated entirely by the PVP community
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
Would be nice if after leaving stealth we have 100% critical chance and combat advantage for 10 seconds
stealth then lurker assault(wirlwind blades works good too)+ sigil of dc+stealth + dazing strike+smoke bomb+ blade flurry or lashing blade(for the last one standing on mob group after dropping the HAMSTER bomb xD), havent taken my tr to chult area yet. Invisible infiltrator and oppressive darkness are my fav class features.
Would be nice if after leaving stealth we have 100% critical chance and combat advantage for 10 seconds
stealth then lurker assault(wirlwind blades works good too)+ sigil of dc+stealth + dazing strike+smoke bomb+ blade flurry or lashing blade(for the last one standing on mob group after dropping the HAMSTER bomb xD), havent taken my tr to chult area yet. Invisible infiltrator and oppressive darkness are my fav class features.
removing oppressive darknes from this statement, because noticed it +x damaged added to the the ecounters(400+ piercing damage, prety much uselless, saw it when doing bt for weekly , )
0
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
There aren't many.. But you can't say tat they're weak: I've played with a couple of them that could put to shame most of gwfs.. Recently I've played ToNG with some 15k tr, with not really bis pty. We had a bugged instance, and we still finished in less than 25 minutes.. So my honest opinion is that TRs are pretty strong, it just takes time to master them.
This really means nothing, apart from being nothing more anedoctal evidence. I could easily reverse it by saying that I've played with a couple of GWFs that put most TRs to shame. You need to look at the aggregate, and "there aren't that many" is right there, the smoking gun that tells the whole tale.
^ Yes, TRs, if you bring a friendly OP, GF and DC alongside with the best possible equipment you can find, you will be just fine fellow TRs, especially when your power jumps to almost 200.000 power for some reason.
Follow this example if you're building a TR and as such you will build a TR in no-time, because the majority of the TR players not only play on Russian servers, but are also all uber-geared.
If you are not uber-geared, well then you can't complain about a perfectly logical and valid reason/point.
Unless you were sarcastic with that modlesi, then I have no idea what to add on top of that little sarcastic exposure and I just couldn't understand the humor in that.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Tardli isn't "uber geared" and he still did melt orcus. There are plenty of really good TRs - more and more of them have been popping up lately.
Being good playing a class whilst having a full support from support classes, furthermore having the best possible equipment you can attain, doesn't mean that TRs are in a good position, and especially not if the contemplating goal is to "defeat the dungeon". The balance between the classes isn't bound on the Power Sharing options. That's a problem of a completely different sort, and one that's bound to bring more lack of balance down the road with more powerful equipment being placed where the server will collectively downgrade Bondings, again, because of terrible power-sharing design. Focusing on classes which allow power-sharing as a valid source for explaining that a certain class is "ok" is illogical to say the least, an I mean this in the nicest way possible.
TR is in a dire need for changes on several aspects and this opinion the developers share, too.
From Reddit's AMA :
This brings us back to the question on the PvE Rogues (not PvP rogues) = Will this help the TR be a more viable class down the road? Will it help my friends to come back and play the game? I sincerely doubt it, but I hope so.
This means having a decent outlet in terms of skills, not in terms of beating some boss from some dungeon.
When focusing or questioning whether a TR is a "balanced class" in regards to other melee classes, one shouldn't look "how fast to kill orcus", but whether the melee class can have a similar output like other melee classes damage-wise. TR doesn't according to the list of damage calculations class-wise per weapon.
TR is crippled thanks to not being able to perform as much damage as other melee classes, and doesn't possess anything to help mitigate this damage differential.
It is either help TRs or nerf other melee classes. Guess which one it's going to be
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Tardli isn't "uber geared" and he still did melt orcus. There are plenty of really good TRs - more and more of them have been popping up lately.
Being good playing a class whilst having a full support from support classes, furthermore having the best possible equipment you can attain, doesn't mean that TRs are in a good position, and especially not if the contemplating goal is to "defeat the dungeon". The balance between the classes isn't bound on the Power Sharing options. That's a problem of a completely different sort, and one that's bound to bring more lack of balance down the road with more powerful equipment being placed where the server will collectively downgrade Bondings, again, because of terrible power-sharing design. Focusing on classes which allow power-sharing as a valid source for explaining that a certain class is "ok" is illogical to say the least, an I mean this in the nicest way possible.
TR is in a dire need for changes on several aspects and this opinion the developers share, too.
From Reddit's AMA :
This brings us back to the question on the PvE Rogues (not PvP rogues) = Will this help the TR be a more viable class down the road? Will it help my friends to come back and play the game? I sincerely doubt it, but I hope so.
This means having a decent outlet in terms of skills, not in terms of beating some boss from some dungeon.
When focusing or questioning whether a TR is a "balanced class" in regards to other melee classes, one shouldn't look "how fast to kill orcus", but whether the melee class can have a similar output like other melee classes damage-wise. TR doesn't according to the list of damage calculations class-wise per weapon.
TR is crippled thanks to not being able to perform as much damage as other melee classes, and doesn't possess anything to help mitigate this damage differential.
It is either help TRs or nerf other melee classes. Guess which one it's going to be
The thing is, I'm not saying that TRs don't need a change. What I'm saying is that they don't need a (significant) buff. TRs have a ridiculously high DPS/skill ceiling and all they have to do is make people able to reach that ceiling more consistently.
I mean, their trash clearing needed some work, and they got it - bf and sb proc lightning. And their single target damage is good enough on an above average skill level (from what I've seen most average TRs dont even know half the mechanics they gotta use. They're playing the TR as if it were a GWF or something, just spamming left click and bugger all else). That's why you got guys like Tardli, Galactic, Blur and so on. Those guys can compete with equally geared GFs, GWFs, HRs and so on.
They're playing the TR as if it were a GWF or something, just spamming left click and bugger all else). That's why you got guys like Tardli, Galactic, Blur and so on. Those guys can compete with equally geared GFs, GWFs, HRs and so on.
TR's are a Melee class, however, for the third time I'm stating this, their damage-per-weapon-ratio is severely crippled.
Their "high ceiling" is not in effect as it was during the mod1-2 with higher-than-most Critical Chance and Critical Severity. Now everyone has 100% crit chance and high crit severity without much effort.
Those things changed a long time ago. The game changed.
If you may provide a video where any of the TRs you mentioned (or someone else, I don't mind at all) are running a dungeon on equal terms with other melee classes >>>without<<< 2xDC/OP or DC/OP combo, that'd be valid. Otherwise, any class can unleash "some serious damage" when attacking the debuffed enemies.
Furthermore, some ACT log which portrays the damage that's actually done in the dungeon and not the "removed HP" as seen in the Paingiver chart which doesn't, at any level, portray the DPS of a class.
Again, no power-sharing options. With power-sharing anyone's a superman.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
They're playing the TR as if it were a GWF or something, just spamming left click and bugger all else). That's why you got guys like Tardli, Galactic, Blur and so on. Those guys can compete with equally geared GFs, GWFs, HRs and so on.
TR's are a Melee class, however, for the third time I'm stating this, their damage-per-weapon-ratio is severely crippled.
Their "high ceiling" is not in effect as it was during the mod1-2 with higher-than-most Critical Chance and Critical Severity. Now everyone has 100% crit chance and high crit severity without much effort.
Those things changed a long time ago. The game changed.
If you may provide a video where any of the TRs you mentioned (or someone else, I don't mind at all) are running a dungeon on equal terms with other melee classes >>>without<<< 2xDC/OP or DC/OP combo, that'd be valid. Otherwise, any class can unleash "some serious damage" when attacking the debuffed enemies.
Furthermore, some ACT log which portrays the damage that's actually done in the dungeon and not the "removed HP" as seen in the Paingiver chart which doesn't, at any level, portray the DPS of a class.
Again, no power-sharing options. With power-sharing anyone's a superman.</p>
Right, because you'd be running relevant, end-game content without any buffs. Anyways, my point still stands. Get a competent TR yourself and test it, I ain't gonna do it for you mate.
1
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I would be a competent try ifor I didn't put 14000 points intof mobility
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Perhaps you have a Russian video of an Orcus being melted by an SW for the complaining warlocks. Maybe they figured a buff group that actually buffs SW
Right, because you'd be running relevant, end-game content without any buffs. Anyways, my point still stands. Get a competent TR yourself and test it, I ain't gonna do it for you mate.
Man, if someone gives me 50.000 power at all times I too can beat any content. Doesn't mean that CW's awesome nor that my build's awesome. The power that doesn't come from the class ability alone can't constitute as the personal thing. It's just plainly simple like that.
But perhaps the idea that someone has to carry you in order to achieve hdps is very stretched out and outdated. Also everything's relevant content and not just tong.
This tongcentrism messes with people's heads when they should be thinking about class balance from the point blank and the way it upscales to the level 70. Offering a video of a tong-run proves nothing in terms of the class balance.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Right, because you'd be running relevant, end-game content without any buffs. Anyways, my point still stands. Get a competent TR yourself and test it, I ain't gonna do it for you mate.
Man, if someone gives me 50.000 power at all times I too can beat any content. Doesn't mean that CW's awesome nor that my build's awesome. The power that doesn't come from the class ability alone can't constitute as the personal thing. It's just plainly simple like that.
But perhaps the idea that someone has to carry you in order to achieve hdps is very stretched out and outdated. Also everything's relevant content and not just tong.
This tongcentrism messes with people's heads when they should be thinking about class balance from the point blank and the way it upscales to the level 70. Offering a video of a tong-run proves nothing in terms of the class balance.
If you didn't need supports to get DPS, would you need supports for anything? How would you challenge the DPS? The only challenge for DPS classes is getting that sweet, sweet IL (read: skill, experience and maybe an enchant or two) and timing your skills with the buffs you get.
The issue is that 53x support and 1x DPS meta will stay here as long as the dungeons are as "hard" as TONG and buffs are as good as they are.
Also, addressing your 1st statement - there was one certain class that couldn't do HAMSTER before and still can't do much now without exploits - namely SW. You could try buffing it into oblivion and it still wouldn't perform well. And you will never run game relevant content without a group where you get buffs. Solo content doesn't matter as much because what most end-game players want is "hidden" behind group content, and that is where their performance actually matters.
Right, because you'd be running relevant, end-game content without any buffs. Anyways, my point still stands. Get a competent TR yourself and test it, I ain't gonna do it for you mate.
Man, if someone gives me 50.000 power at all times I too can beat any content. Doesn't mean that CW's awesome nor that my build's awesome. The power that doesn't come from the class ability alone can't constitute as the personal thing. It's just plainly simple like that.
But perhaps the idea that someone has to carry you in order to achieve hdps is very stretched out and outdated. Also everything's relevant content and not just tong.
This tongcentrism messes with people's heads when they should be thinking about class balance from the point blank and the way it upscales to the level 70. Offering a video of a tong-run proves nothing in terms of the class balance.
If you didn't need supports to get DPS, would you need supports for anything? How would you challenge the DPS? The only challenge for DPS classes is getting that sweet, sweet IL (read: skill, experience and maybe an enchant or two) and timing your skills with the buffs you get.
The issue is that 53x support and 1x DPS meta will stay here as long as the dungeons are as "hard" as TONG and buffs are as good as they are.
Also, addressing your 1st statement - there was one certain class that couldn't do HAMSTER before and still can't do much now without exploits - namely SW. You could try buffing it into oblivion and it still wouldn't perform well. And you will never run game relevant content without a group where you get buffs. Solo content doesn't matter as much because what most end-game players want is "hidden" behind group content, and that is where their performance actually matters.
I wonder if the exploit you are referring to is what I'm thinking about. If it is, it's hard to call just using one of your regular skills, without having to equip or do anything odd and out of the ordinarily expected for your class an exploit. And if you consider that many that end up using said exploit don't even know they are causing a bug because the end result is nothing compared to old "exploits" (like the very intricate and hard to reproduce exploit of putting one point into damnation capstone pre-M10, or pre 10.5 TC). Only those that use ACT will notice the strange behavior I think you refer to, with very unimpressive outcomes.
So I have to partially agree with you, because even with "exploits" you still can't do much (assuming that by "can't do much now without exploits" you mean that with exploits sw will do much ). Compared to other classes, SW feels immune to buffs.
Or maybe you are referring to the exploit of using piñatas in single target fights to proc offering to the prisoner
Tardli isn't "uber geared" and he still did melt orcus. There are plenty of really good TRs - more and more of them have been popping up lately.
Being good playing a class whilst having a full support from support classes, furthermore having the best possible equipment you can attain, doesn't mean that TRs are in a good position, and especially not if the contemplating goal is to "defeat the dungeon". The balance between the classes isn't bound on the Power Sharing options. That's a problem of a completely different sort, and one that's bound to bring more lack of balance down the road with more powerful equipment being placed where the server will collectively downgrade Bondings, again, because of terrible power-sharing design. Focusing on classes which allow power-sharing as a valid source for explaining that a certain class is "ok" is illogical to say the least, an I mean this in the nicest way possible.
TR is in a dire need for changes on several aspects and this opinion the developers share, too.
From Reddit's AMA :
This brings us back to the question on the PvE Rogues (not PvP rogues) = Will this help the TR be a more viable class down the road? Will it help my friends to come back and play the game? I sincerely doubt it, but I hope so.
This means having a decent outlet in terms of skills, not in terms of beating some boss from some dungeon.
When focusing or questioning whether a TR is a "balanced class" in regards to other melee classes, one shouldn't look "how fast to kill orcus", but whether the melee class can have a similar output like other melee classes damage-wise. TR doesn't according to the list of damage calculations class-wise per weapon.
TR is crippled thanks to not being able to perform as much damage as other melee classes, and doesn't possess anything to help mitigate this damage differential.
It is either help TRs or nerf other melee classes. Guess which one it's going to be
My fastest T9 runs have been with a TR, OP, GF, and 2 DCs. HR instead of TR and the runs are a bit slower and a GWF run is even a slower. A well built TR can out DPS any other class on single targets. Just like a well built GWF and CW can do massive damage on multi targets. The other thing is not just the build but also the skill of the player, if the players has no idea how to max out the damage of the class it will feel weak in comparison to other classes.
I do have to say that after playing a CW for so long now and going onto a HR Combat and a GWF that the two melee classes are easier play and require less planning and changing of abilities per a fight when compared to my CW.
I have yet to play a TR but I imagine they along with CW will get some love and fixing come mod 14, if not, than the devs have continued to let down player who play two of the core classes in the D&D franchise.
Tardli isn't "uber geared" and he still did melt orcus. There are plenty of really good TRs - more and more of them have been popping up lately.
Being good playing a class whilst having a full support from support classes, furthermore having the best possible equipment you can attain, doesn't mean that TRs are in a good position, and especially not if the contemplating goal is to "defeat the dungeon". The balance between the classes isn't bound on the Power Sharing options. That's a problem of a completely different sort, and one that's bound to bring more lack of balance down the road with more powerful equipment being placed where the server will collectively downgrade Bondings, again, because of terrible power-sharing design. Focusing on classes which allow power-sharing as a valid source for explaining that a certain class is "ok" is illogical to say the least, an I mean this in the nicest way possible.
TR is in a dire need for changes on several aspects and this opinion the developers share, too.
From Reddit's AMA :
This brings us back to the question on the PvE Rogues (not PvP rogues) = Will this help the TR be a more viable class down the road? Will it help my friends to come back and play the game? I sincerely doubt it, but I hope so.
This means having a decent outlet in terms of skills, not in terms of beating some boss from some dungeon.
When focusing or questioning whether a TR is a "balanced class" in regards to other melee classes, one shouldn't look "how fast to kill orcus", but whether the melee class can have a similar output like other melee classes damage-wise. TR doesn't according to the list of damage calculations class-wise per weapon.
TR is crippled thanks to not being able to perform as much damage as other melee classes, and doesn't possess anything to help mitigate this damage differential.
It is either help TRs or nerf other melee classes. Guess which one it's going to be
My fastest T9 runs have been with a TR, OP, GF, and 2 DCs. HR instead of TR and the runs are a bit slower and a GWF run is even a slower. A well built TR can out DPS any other class on single targets. Just like a well built GWF and CW can do massive damage on multi targets. The other thing is not just the build but also the skill of the player, if the players has no idea how to max out the damage of the class it will feel weak in comparison to other classes.
I do have to say that after playing a CW for so long now and going onto a HR Combat and a GWF that the two melee classes are easier play and require less planning and changing of abilities per a fight when compared to my CW.
I have yet to play a TR but I imagine they along with CW will get some love and fixing come mod 14, if not, than the devs have continued to let down player who play two of the core classes in the D&D franchise.
Thing about TRs is, it's among the 3 hardest classes to play (along HR and SW, at least for me). It's mostly because of how a big bulk of their damage works - SoD. It's not applied on-hit, it's after a period of time, and that's the issue. If they're running with another DPS, they won't get to proc it quite often on trash. And on bosses, TRs are really damn good now - my fastest on my OP was with a TR as well.
So you'll see good players destroy HAMSTER (Tardli, Treme, Blur, Galactic...) and other... not as good TRs that don't perform well, and they are "underperforming because class is underpowered".
To answer the original post: I used to main a TR I swapped to Pally. In my guild most people have 1 of each character type including TR Only 1 person still Main's a TR... There is another who would like to main her TR but she keeps finding herself on her DC
At one point we had about 7 people maining TR's - all have quit or main something else. Actually - there are only 3 of us still in the game and I only play casually anymore.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
TR surely needs some attention but what some of you describe is the fact that near everyone " mains" a supporterclass in this game due to current " buff-situation" and content. TR is no real supporter and most runs only got one strikter spot..tong cotdg. I run a DC , a GF , a SW at endcontent and work in that OP. My SW can do the striker job, but all that is wanted is a supporter in mod 13, 90% of the time I support more than I dps.
A lot of player prefer to chose that GWF for the striker role over that TR, Hunter, SW, CW etc., maybe also due to his tankyness. All classes can fit that DPS role, some do better than others. So if you want TR's to get more access to content, all you can do is ask for either severe debuffing tools or groupbuffs or ask cryptic to balance all buffs, lower them in a hole to make striker more viable. By that they need to adjust the difficulty of some dungeons. CotDG setup looks like a mix from tanks/offtanks/supporter , you need a ton of mitigation and healing to survive that minefield in the last fight...never saw that much red zones in one spot
A life without my daggers is not a life worth living. You can count me among the TR populace.
Bigger question:
Can we count on a TR rework coming in Module 13.5, Module 14, or within 2018?
Keep in mind, this "rework" should be a rework, not a nerf, or really much of a buff either. In any case I hope it happens. What I also hope for is the old transmutes to come back, LC increase, an endless supply of lasagna and a daily bj, but we can dream, eh?
Can we count on a TR rework coming in Module 13.5, Module 14, or within 2018?
I'm definitely not the person to answer this question as it doesn't fall in my purview. Not the answer you were looking for I know, but what I can tell you is that your feedback doesn't just get shouted into an empty void and that the team is listening.
At this point, tbh, i dont know if a rework is a good thing and how it may turn out. We have put a guide together and posted it so every TR can improve the performance without going through the trouble of finding what works the best themselves. Class is very capable when there are more targets around (mobs and Orcus fight in tomb) and its "weakest", imo, on single target which lasts long. Still, overall, quite a good dps class when used correctly.
If rework happens it should tackle the issues - Saboteur capstone, Scoundrel capstone, Duelists Flurry, shine some light onto useless powers... That story has already been told, few times. If anything gets reworked then its those issues, hopefully.
I would agree with Blur a change to the TR most likely be a bad change because of how somethings in the class work together, changing some of those core mechanics would almost throw the class in the trash. The good thing about being a TR is how you benefit from power share and from having adds around, we are the class that benefits the most from such things (having a dc use Annointed Army gives us a bigger dmg increase compared to other classes, thanks to how the class is build) this is what makes the class acceptable in endgame, if a TR is alone he will be HAMSTER compared to any other dps classes alone. With that being said I would add that TR is amazing on bosses with adds, and worse on bosses that move away/run before their hp gets low enouth so that our feats start being active/and those that stop taking dmg breaking combos and making sod proc for 0 dmg, for example, for me to fully buff up i would say it would take me from 15 seconds to 30 secs (this depends on my playstyle and group tho). Just a random opinion from a random Floor Inspector.
2
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @lassor said: > Bigger question: > > Can we count on a TR rework coming in Module 13.5, Module 14, or within 2018? > > I'm definitely not the person to answer this question as it doesn't fall in my purview. Not the answer you were looking for I know, but what I can tell you is that your feedback doesn't just get shouted into an empty void and that the team is listening.
This means gods of neverwinter answer players in their own time.
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Whats good, I am in the Goonies on XB1 and I can't remember the guild on PS4. I main a TR Setsuna F. Seiei 17.6K on XB1 and Serenity on PS4. I will never abandon my TR too much fun to play. It is a technical class to learn and play. Its not as easy as aGWF where you just press buttons and do damage. As said in alot of these post we can buff on own power with whirl wind of blades and courage breaker if you know how to do the power loop. In my guild I will say there is about 4 other TRs. I am in Japan right now so when I am online no one else is really online except FNHUSA57 and a few others. I have run tong a about 35 times got kicked out about 9 times. Always because we need more DPS comes up when the fact is everyone was focusing on the boss instead of the souls. So you know the TR has to go, even though I am out DPSing the GWF.
For some reason the Devs decide to give TRs and HR lower power base damage than the other classes. I am not sure if it is because TR a dual handed melee class, same for HRs when using melee weapons. So when it comes to down to nd why people think TRs are weak I want to give everyone a visual. Do I think the class is weak (no if played correct by a skilled player.) I have out DPSed a few GFs, GWF, and 1 CW. Because I have learned to play my class. Does it happen often no do I get blown out? Not anymore thanks to the TR discord I got alot of valuable tips from members.
Honestly by myself I have been able to get my power to around 200K. My base power 39K, when I proc my bondings I am 63K give or take. When I use WWoB I can get to 130K on my own then use CB I can get to 200K with about 27K recovery, 86% arm pen and 29K to 30K critical strike which gives me 100% crit and 110% crit severity. With buffs and power sharing I can compete with most GWFs. CW just do too much dam AoE damage for me to keep up. I have been asked by several people I have run T9 with to run with them again on more than 1 occasion in and out of my guild alliance.
All who run a TR should know about power looping with WWoB and CB. So here is a visual of the power levels given to all classes I got this from Janne's awesome website. If you play a TR you probably know about the website.
As you can see that TR have the lowest value added to there power. Its the same as the HR melee, but because the HR can switch stance and have 3 additional encounter powers from their main hand they do more damage. If the TR had an mainhand and offhand base value we would be in a much better place. Because are the only class that use a dual weapon besides the HR I am assuming that that number is divided by 2. If it was 86.65489 for both weapons we would be right up there with GWF, GF, and OP.
Thats my take.
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (PC) Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1) Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
My main is TR but I'm shelving it for a bit.. not many goid ones at all on ps4. Myself and a couple others. Have OP for obvious reasons, and currently hav8ng fun with CW. I think the one thing that could make me love my TR again is allowing AP gain during lurkers..
.. and I will call for a nerf. GF dps. Final bosses in high end content dead in seconds just makes the game boring.
As you can see that TR have the lowest value added to there power. Its the same as the HR melee, but because the HR can switch stance and have 3 additional encounter powers from their main hand they do more damage. If the TR had an mainhand and offhand base value we would be in a much better place. Because are the only class that use a dual weapon besides the HR I am assuming that that number is divided by 2. If it was 86.65489 for both weapons we would be right up there with GWF, GF, and OP.
Thats my take.
The damage formula specifically calls for "(Level Base + Weapon Damage)". Since TRs have two weapons, you combine their damage rolls for what you input into "Weapon Damage". The level base isn't multiplied twice, I'm afraid.
But level base differences aren't that big of a deal nowadays, given that our weapon damage is so high relative to our weapon damage.
You might be surprised that TR's weapon damage is rather good, since the combination of both daggers places TR in about the high/middle tier relative to other classes. TR's weapon damage is lower than GWF and GF/OP weapon damage, but is greater than the weapon damage of SW, HR melee and ranged, CW, and DC.
Comments
I stopped playing my rogue 2 mods ago, it just becomes harder to tolerate the neglect that the class receives. Stealth seems to be a big complaint in PVP (even though its the only class mechanic in the game that the devs have provided a counter for with stealth sight rings). But in PVE the mechanic isnt viable anymore. End game enemies see through stealth anyway and most good rogues pretty much always crit outside of stealth....pointless.
The class needs a full rework, from the ground up because right now the TR excels at nothing. But its pointless to even start the process if the future of such changes are dictated entirely by the PVP community
I could easily reverse it by saying that I've played with a couple of GWFs that put most TRs to shame.
You need to look at the aggregate, and "there aren't that many" is right there, the smoking gun that tells the whole tale.
Follow this example if you're building a TR and as such you will build a TR in no-time, because the majority of the TR players not only play on Russian servers, but are also all uber-geared.
If you are not uber-geared, well then you can't complain about a perfectly logical and valid reason/point.
Unless you were sarcastic with that modlesi, then I have no idea what to add on top of that little sarcastic exposure and I just couldn't understand the humor in that.
Now, to the more pressing matters... Being good playing a class whilst having a full support from support classes, furthermore having the best possible equipment you can attain, doesn't mean that TRs are in a good position, and especially not if the contemplating goal is to "defeat the dungeon". The balance between the classes isn't bound on the Power Sharing options. That's a problem of a completely different sort, and one that's bound to bring more lack of balance down the road with more powerful equipment being placed where the server will collectively downgrade Bondings, again, because of terrible power-sharing design. Focusing on classes which allow power-sharing as a valid source for explaining that a certain class is "ok" is illogical to say the least, an I mean this in the nicest way possible.
TR is in a dire need for changes on several aspects and this opinion the developers share, too.
From Reddit's AMA :
This brings us back to the question on the PvE Rogues (not PvP rogues) = Will this help the TR be a more viable class down the road? Will it help my friends to come back and play the game? I sincerely doubt it, but I hope so.
This means having a decent outlet in terms of skills, not in terms of beating some boss from some dungeon.
When focusing or questioning whether a TR is a "balanced class" in regards to other melee classes, one shouldn't look "how fast to kill orcus", but whether the melee class can have a similar output like other melee classes damage-wise. TR doesn't according to the list of damage calculations class-wise per weapon.
TR is crippled thanks to not being able to perform as much damage as other melee classes, and doesn't possess anything to help mitigate this damage differential.
It is either help TRs or nerf other melee classes. Guess which one it's going to be
I mean, their trash clearing needed some work, and they got it - bf and sb proc lightning. And their single target damage is good enough on an above average skill level (from what I've seen most average TRs dont even know half the mechanics they gotta use. They're playing the TR as if it were a GWF or something, just spamming left click and bugger all else). That's why you got guys like Tardli, Galactic, Blur and so on. Those guys can compete with equally geared GFs, GWFs, HRs and so on.
Their "high ceiling" is not in effect as it was during the mod1-2 with higher-than-most Critical Chance and Critical Severity. Now everyone has 100% crit chance and high crit severity without much effort.
Those things changed a long time ago. The game changed.
If you may provide a video where any of the TRs you mentioned (or someone else, I don't mind at all) are running a dungeon on equal terms with other melee classes >>>without<<< 2xDC/OP or DC/OP combo, that'd be valid. Otherwise, any class can unleash "some serious damage" when attacking the debuffed enemies.
Furthermore, some ACT log which portrays the damage that's actually done in the dungeon and not the "removed HP" as seen in the Paingiver chart which doesn't, at any level, portray the DPS of a class.
Again, no power-sharing options. With power-sharing anyone's a superman.
But perhaps the idea that someone has to carry you in order to achieve hdps is very stretched out and outdated.
Also everything's relevant content and not just tong.
This tongcentrism messes with people's heads when they should be thinking about class balance from the point blank and the way it upscales to the level 70. Offering a video of a tong-run proves nothing in terms of the class balance.
The issue is that 53x support and 1x DPS meta will stay here as long as the dungeons are as "hard" as TONG and buffs are as good as they are.
Also, addressing your 1st statement - there was one certain class that couldn't do HAMSTER before and still can't do much now without exploits - namely SW. You could try buffing it into oblivion and it still wouldn't perform well. And you will never run game relevant content without a group where you get buffs. Solo content doesn't matter as much because what most end-game players want is "hidden" behind group content, and that is where their performance actually matters.
So I have to partially agree with you, because even with "exploits" you still can't do much (assuming that by "can't do much now without exploits" you mean that with exploits sw will do much ). Compared to other classes, SW feels immune to buffs.
Or maybe you are referring to the exploit of using piñatas in single target fights to proc offering to the prisoner
I do have to say that after playing a CW for so long now and going onto a HR Combat and a GWF that the two melee classes are easier play and require less planning and changing of abilities per a fight when compared to my CW.
I have yet to play a TR but I imagine they along with CW will get some love and fixing come mod 14, if not, than the devs have continued to let down player who play two of the core classes in the D&D franchise.
So you'll see good players destroy HAMSTER (Tardli, Treme, Blur, Galactic...) and other... not as good TRs that don't perform well, and they are "underperforming because class is underpowered".
I used to main a TR
I swapped to Pally.
In my guild most people have 1 of each character type including TR
Only 1 person still Main's a TR... There is another who would like to main her TR but she keeps finding herself on her DC
At one point we had about 7 people maining TR's - all have quit or main something else. Actually - there are only 3 of us still in the game and I only play casually anymore.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
I run a DC , a GF , a SW at endcontent and work in that OP.
My SW can do the striker job, but all that is wanted is a supporter in mod 13, 90% of the time I support more than I dps.
A lot of player prefer to chose that GWF for the striker role over that TR, Hunter, SW, CW etc., maybe also due to his tankyness.
All classes can fit that DPS role, some do better than others.
So if you want TR's to get more access to content, all you can do is ask for either severe debuffing tools or groupbuffs or ask cryptic to balance all buffs, lower them in a hole to make striker more viable.
By that they need to adjust the difficulty of some dungeons.
CotDG setup looks like a mix from tanks/offtanks/supporter , you need a ton of mitigation and healing to survive that minefield in the last fight...never saw that much red zones in one spot
Can we count on a TR rework coming in Module 13.5, Module 14, or within 2018?
We have put a guide together and posted it so every TR can improve the performance without going through the trouble of finding what works the best themselves. Class is very capable when there are more targets around (mobs and Orcus fight in tomb) and its "weakest", imo, on single target which lasts long. Still, overall, quite a good dps class when used correctly.
If rework happens it should tackle the issues - Saboteur capstone, Scoundrel capstone, Duelists Flurry, shine some light onto useless powers... That story has already been told, few times. If anything gets reworked then its those issues, hopefully.
The good thing about being a TR is how you benefit from power share and from having adds around, we are the class that benefits the most from such things (having a dc use Annointed Army gives us a bigger dmg increase compared to other classes, thanks to how the class is build) this is what makes the class acceptable in endgame, if a TR is alone he will be HAMSTER compared to any other dps classes alone.
With that being said I would add that TR is amazing on bosses with adds, and worse on bosses that move away/run before their hp gets low enouth so that our feats start being active/and those that stop taking dmg breaking combos and making sod proc for 0 dmg, for example, for me to fully buff up i would say it would take me from 15 seconds to 30 secs (this depends on my playstyle and group tho).
Just a random opinion from a random Floor Inspector.
> Bigger question:
>
> Can we count on a TR rework coming in Module 13.5, Module 14, or within 2018?
>
> I'm definitely not the person to answer this question as it doesn't fall in my purview. Not the answer you were looking for I know, but what I can tell you is that your feedback doesn't just get shouted into an empty void and that the team is listening.
This means gods of neverwinter answer players in their own time.
For some reason the Devs decide to give TRs and HR lower power base damage than the other classes. I am not sure if it is because TR a dual handed melee class, same for HRs when using melee weapons. So when it comes to down to nd why people think TRs are weak I want to give everyone a visual. Do I think the class is weak (no if played correct by a skilled player.) I have out DPSed a few GFs, GWF, and 1 CW. Because I have learned to play my class. Does it happen often no do I get blown out? Not anymore thanks to the TR discord I got alot of valuable tips from members.
Honestly by myself I have been able to get my power to around 200K. My base power 39K, when I proc my bondings I am 63K give or take. When I use WWoB I can get to 130K on my own then use CB I can get to 200K with about 27K recovery, 86% arm pen and 29K to 30K critical strike which gives me 100% crit and 110% crit severity. With buffs and power sharing I can compete with most GWFs. CW just do too much dam AoE damage for me to keep up. I have been asked by several people I have run T9 with to run with them again on more than 1 occasion in and out of my guild alliance.
All who run a TR should know about power looping with WWoB and CB. So here is a visual of the power levels given to all classes I got this from Janne's awesome website. If you play a TR you probably know about the website.
Level Base values:
TR: 86.65489
CW: 144.42482
DC: 144.42482
GF: 173.309784
GWF: 173.309784
HR Melee: 86.65489
HR Ranged: 144.42482
OP: 173.309784
SW: 144.42482
As you can see that TR have the lowest value added to there power. Its the same as the HR melee, but because the HR can switch stance and have 3 additional encounter powers from their main hand they do more damage. If the TR had an mainhand and offhand base value we would be in a much better place. Because are the only class that use a dual weapon besides the HR I am assuming that that number is divided by 2. If it was 86.65489 for both weapons we would be right up there with GWF, GF, and OP.
Thats my take.
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1)
Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
I think the one thing that could make me love my TR again is allowing AP gain during lurkers..
.. and I will call for a nerf. GF dps. Final bosses in high end content dead in seconds just makes the game boring.
Since TRs have two weapons, you combine their damage rolls for what you input into "Weapon Damage".
The level base isn't multiplied twice, I'm afraid.
But level base differences aren't that big of a deal nowadays, given that our weapon damage is so high relative to our weapon damage.
You might be surprised that TR's weapon damage is rather good, since the combination of both daggers places TR in about the high/middle tier relative to other classes. TR's weapon damage is lower than GWF and GF/OP weapon damage, but is greater than the weapon damage of SW, HR melee and ranged, CW, and DC.