Bad experience of random epic as well. Random epic trial: nsva. Most of them afk'ing, barely 11k. Standing at the campfire and telling jokes. I was top dps on my AC DC using heals/DG/FF... When you were asking people to free from ice, joking again as an answer. "who cares i'll get my 100ish seals and my 9k ADs" Random epic dungeon: mSP. A tank that doesnt know what itf is, wants to dps but barely outdps the cleric. Saying "im not a tank" but he wasnt a dps or a buffer either. He was, nothing. A walking shield.
Random epic trial again: tiamat. Afk'ers like most of the instance. I could keep going on and on, i gave it a shot for a whole week.
I dont mind going and helping people running content without rushing it and explaining, but people that afk and dont even want to try, no thanks. Call me an elitist, i'll get over it.
Hero's accord: Ouh yea. No comment.
I tried all of that, multiple times on OP, DC, CW and HR. And yea, no thanks.
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,424Arc User
edited November 2017
The current RQ situation is only ease for one type of group.
A group of 5 to 7 players who play at the same time. They all have multiple capable toons that can play up to CN and they all can qualify to enter anything.
They don't need to PUG. They can switch toon to fill the requirement at will. They can easily do RQ Level, RQ Skirmish and RQ Epic (up to CN). For RQ Epic, they would just quit and take the penalty if that happens to be FBI and MSP. They can then switch to another toon to continue. Since they have a full party, the chance to get FBI and MSP is lower than individual and partial party.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Even eTOS which was usually a breeze for the groups I normally ran them with prior to the patch was an agonizing 30 minute jaunt as players were literally pulling every single damn mob. The skill different is huge as well.
Translation: I was in a group that was playing the dungeon the way it was meant to be played, and not speed-running from door to door for maximum efficiency. How dare those lowbies slow down those speed runs that I have become accustomed to!
How are they supposed to be played? Get a bag of popcorn and spend all night in there only to get your crappy daily AD and HAMSTER loot?
Until they address the loot, no one wants to spend a second longer than they need to in any of these places. It's not like it gets more fun after you have run it 100 times.
It's probably, as with most things like this, a point somewhere in the middle.
A point called "compromise"...
IF speed heroes slow down just a bit and help the 10K guys en route to the gate boss they will probably find that the overall run is quicker than dashing off and ignoring stuff to kill a boss and get all irate about how 10K characters aren't as fast/powerful/super important as 15.5K characters.
If left to their own devices you will no doubt be waiting for repawns and overlong fights. That's just common sense.
Try it... helping them... not just by vritue of being special and simply being there. But actually hanging back and helping them deal with the stuff they are not yet equipped to handle. As you slow down a bit, they will speed up.
Call it "Enlightened Self Interest" if that makes you feel better.
I like to hang back when I see a lowbie with no guild in the title now, if the 3rd person rushes ahead and the poor lowbie gets mugged or worse, grabs agrgro from the train the rusher made is just going to leave him with a bad gaming experience.
As a member of a small guild, I run epic dungeons to get shards to help it grow. Normally run Throne, Malabog's, Valindra's, Lair, Temple of the Spider, and CN. Not the greatest content, but still fun to run from time to time. I skip Prophecy, Cragmire, Gray Wolf, Fragbreaker, and Spellplague because I don't care for the content. Up until now I've been able to provide the guild with Dungeoneer shards, which is one of the most needed items, by playing content I didn't mind playing. Now I'm at a cross-roads... After a long day of work, should I help my guild and be miserable or say sorry dudes, deal with it.
I don't have an issue with random queues because I can just not do it, but you just blocked me from helping my guild by forcing me to play miserable content. I probably wouldn't be so mad about this, but every other item that can be donated to the guild can be gathered by opening lockboxes and purchased from AH(for reasaonble prices). So please either remove the Random Queue requirement for Dungeoneer Shards or add them to Lockboxes. Both would be great.
If new players are walking away from a bad experience, they are walking away from the game, games should be rewarding and fun, but at least rewarding. Devs saw an issue and came up with an idea fo a fix, it needs some tweaking to say the least.
I actually like the RQ Skirmish and Random normal dungeon, it's the easiest 20k I know how to make and I have several 11k+ characters I can run them with, every day, if I chose to, or had time to do and I can earn it in less than 20 minutes, compare that with 2xSkirmish and 2xeToS previously which is more like 30 minutes, gave less AD but potentially made up for it in salvage. But the RQ epic dungeon queue can go fly Air Thelma & Louise for all I care, as it is.
Talking Epic dungoens, I really do like the suggestions made by others that if FBI and MSP was put in the same queue as TONG a lot of this hate would just dissipate.
It's a good system, but punishing the small guilds this idea was meant to help and giving both new and old players a bad gaming experience by forcing them to run content they do not have the experience, time or gear isn't good for the players and I cannot see it being kept by Cryptic as it has (apparently) failed to achieve the results they were intended, worse, it has exacerbated them.
I agree completely, it has to be changed, not by a bit, but by a lot.
There is so much good feedback already and excuse me, if i may repeat some of it, didn't have time to read all through.
I see s few big problems with random queues.
1. Alliances are merely obsolete now. People still run the end game dungeons in the old meta and mostly in closed groups or in zerg channels, they use the alliance chat mostly, well you have it, just to chat. Only valid point now for an alliance is just the social aspect, not much else.
2. The old Tiamat phenomenon has emerged again, we have bunch of AFKers, leechers and people, who just artificially pump up their IL, but can not contribute to a successful outcome.
Don't get me wrong, i happily carry a "newbie" through anything, if he/she is committed, but seeing people clothing in their toons with skins and rings, that don't even belong to their builds or are just pure obsolete PVP rings (cowardice, etc.) and do no DPS at all or don't help them to play support a tiny bit and to top it, this comes from a seasoned player on his/her alt, then i lose my faith.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Tiamat is the only thing I go out of my way to make keys for now, a 6 minute Tia gives great rewards for the time you spend there.
RQ Tiamat is not working really well. It generally is low dps since a lot of fortune hunters sign up for it. Low dps Tiamat can be doable if tactics is followed, but these fortune hunters did not bother to read up on tactics in advance, nor do they read instructions provided in /raid. So they kill the heads.
We won in 3 rd round with just a few seconds left.. that was unnecessary close, and the reason was too many people that had no clue.
While I do see that a positive effect of the RQs is to give more new players the opportunity to run heavy content, this is being abused by people that don't care to contribute and just want to leech.
And that does not work well in the heaviest content.
I like to hang back when I see a lowbie with no guild in the title now, if the 3rd person rushes ahead and the poor lowbie gets mugged or worse, grabs agrgro from the train the rusher made is just going to leave him with a bad gaming experience.
It's not hard to do is it. To be fair, it's been a long time since I did a leveling dungeon PUG. It's always been with lower level guildies, or as a last resort when running out of game time and an epic queue has taken too long. At which point I always prefer to solo CC or FH through a private queue.
Sadly, the new model for leveling random queue means that anyone who was doing the same and power running leveling solos now has to inflict themselves on sub 70 players. I'd say fewer than 20% in my experience follow the example you suggest.
If new players are walking away from a bad experience, they are walking away from the game, games should be rewarding and fun, but at least rewarding. Devs saw an issue and came up with an idea fo a fix, it needs some tweaking to say the least.
...and THIS is the end result. If some new player, at say... L50 or 60, looks at the leveling queue and realises that they don't get to bypass the whole "more powerful players dashing off and spoiling it" till they hit at least IL 11'000 what is their incentive? They look at their current IL at 2-3K and they are going to think, "This will never end..." so their experience of one of the most important part of the game. (The "DUNGEON" part of Dungeons and Dragons) is a complete waste of time and effort. Hardly a hook to keep them on the line of playing the game in the future. (I know they like fishing, so fishing analogies might help...)
I actually like the RQ Skirmish and Random normal dungeon, it's the easiest 20k I know how to make and I have several 11k+ characters I can run them with, every day, if I chose to, or had time to do and I can earn it in less than 20 minutes, compare that with 2xSkirmish and 2xeToS previously which is more like 30 minutes, gave less AD but potentially made up for it in salvage. But the RQ epic dungeon queue can go fly Air Thelma & Louise for all I care, as it is.
Talking Epic dungoens, I really do like the suggestions made by others that if FBI and MSP was put in the same queue as TONG a lot of this hate would just dissipate.
It's a good system, but punishing the small guilds this idea was meant to help and giving both new and old players a bad gaming experience by forcing them to run content they do not have the experience, time or gear isn't good for the players and I cannot see it being kept by Cryptic as it has (apparently) failed to achieve the results they were intended, worse, it has exacerbated them.
Sadly, they won't move FBI and MSP unless there is a major shift in outlook. Whatever else they say, the only reason for the RQ system to be structured the way it is, is to corral players into those two dungeons. Were it for any other reason, there are half a dozen ways it could have been done better. And its not like that is only just becomming apparent now.
All the problems currently being experienced were obvious from the announcement and were pointed out ad infinitum across nearly 50 pages of people wailing about the obvious flaws, on the preview thread.
It was released regardless, and as day follows night, the obvious problems began.
Nothing so far that people are complaing about wasn't foreseen, expected and pointed out.
If you are about to drop an expensive vase off a building and everyone says "if you do that... it will break" you only drop the vase if it doesn't bother you that it will break or you don't trust the opinion of other people. And then when people say "Why did you do that? The vase is broken!!!" just shruggng and saying "We're taking that on board... and considering our vase dropping options. We will make a statement in the future." makes people wonder what the decision making process is that allows things like that to happen.
One of the biggest issues with that discussion was the way that when a question was asked, and an answer given by devs, follow up questions requesting explanation and clarification on the given answer, were met with the reply that the questioned had been answered and they were not prepared to keep going over the same things.
Like; "How does the internal combustion engine work?" "Because... blue." "Sorry, I'm not sure I understand that... could you explain the thinking behind that reply..." "The question has been answered, and no further explanation will be forthcoming"
It was a very furstrating thread, which lead to a very frustrating roll out.
So in case someone somewhere actual reads this... Ive been in game since IWD came out..... I hate the random dungeon system.... for all of the reasons mentioned above and in other threads all over the place... I have limited weekday play time so i end up doing a lowbie dungeon which I used to solo cause quick...now i get to destroy the experiences of poor new players on a daily bases. And no, I will not, no way run a pug random epic, not when it could be FBI / TONG/ MSP. im in a guild with mostly americans so they are sleeping when i get home. Now i run 3 people RQ's monday till Friday ... and epics with my own guild on weekends only ... I aint teaching nobody nothing...
I hate this system ... and I feel so sorry for all the new shiney 70's who cant even do a MC or a VT ... to get BOTH AD and salvage and guild stuffs.
The system is a total joke. If they read the forums, they'd see what people really think of it. Just did a random skirmish and got merchant's folly, with 3 GF, 1OP, 1 DC. But of course you can't que for the epic unless you have 3 DPS, or the Hero's accord. You're losing people that have played hundreds and hundreds of hours. But again, you don't give a ......
So basically, what's happening is what we said would happen. Ah well...
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
So basically, what's happening is what we said would happen. Ah well...
Pretty much. The irony here is there are folks I know who have amped up their salvage farming to counter this, almost as a protest. 47 pages predicting failure on preview and warning them but they stubbornly went ahead.
If they need to show MSP and FBI being played, then simple solution: pull them out of the random queue and give them a chance to drop Ultimates. Quit being stubborn and stingy about loot, it's killing the game. Remember when people would advertise in LFG for CN 3/4 etc. to farm ancient gear and seals. (Back when the player base hadn't been chased off by a parade of poor decisions)? I think they could take a page from that if they aren't prepared to go back to BoE.
Bosses should not be dropping peridots or nothing at all. I'm not sure what color the sky is at Cryptic on that one, but they aren't "getting it". Hati farm will not appeal to all players. Meaningful and widely sought after loot that can drop at any boss will pull people into dungeons. CN and lower can stay in the random queue as a novelty for those that rely on it for their AD *IF* they insist on carrying on with this train wreck.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Now the the loot is fixed in MSP and I'm seeing more groups being set up for it, if they wanted to make people run it, they didn't need to create a new system, just fix something that was broken.
It's sad that we can no longer earn AD while running dungeons solo. Someone decided that we must run with other people, that typically want to run through the dungeon as fast as possible, no matter if other players can keep up. These changes have made it so I don't want to run dungeons anymore, because you always get stuck with at least one person that doesn't care about teamwork and runs ahead. I have been playing since this game was in beta and I remember enjoying dungeons in the past where the entire group had to work together. Now the game is all about who can pay for the best stats and ruin the game for everyone else. Just because some people from the A.D.H.D. generation want to run through everything for bragging rights, doesn't mean that is who the game should cater to. There are people playing the game that actually enjoy going through dungeons without it all being a blur. Bring back AD on dungeons run solo so we are not all subjected to the worst this game has to offer just to earn enough to better our characters.
I'm seeing a lot of people whining because it isn't as easy as it previously was for them to run through dungeons and scoop up the astral diamonds at the end...
Now if they are in a party, particularly a party with a lower level or inexperienced character they have to actually act like a party member instead of just running ahead and leaving the other people in the party to fend for themselves, I have zero sympathy for them.
As a player who tried on several occasions to do some of those dungeons only to find myself slogging through opponents some higher level member of the party could have easily taken care of, or at least should have assisted with - but didn't, I'm of the opinion this levels out the playing field nicely. When people are in a party they should quest as a party - not every player for themselves.
Dungeons and skirmishes are designed to be quested as a party, not a solo endeavor by some over powered character that only cares about getting to the chest at the end...
I happen to like the new random queue system if for no other reason that regardless of what kinds of gear or enchantments one player has, they are forced to play cooperatively with other party members or wait at the boss gate until the new or low level player is able to clean up the trash they left behind.
If the players who were only in the game to scoop up astral diamonds "don't want to play any more", so be it... they weren't really "playing" to begin with, they were just feeding their own greed and are now upset they can't do it as easily now.
Or at least that's my opinion, as unpopular as it will likely be for the whiners.
I happen to like the new system.. alot. It's much easier for me to earn Dungeoneers shards for my guild now, Qs for epics are popping much faster than they did before when I was pugging, and I just like the randomness. No more ending up in the same ETOS or Throne over and over and over ad infinitum because that's what everyone else is Qing. If I see any changes that should be made, is that as others have suggested, that FBI and epic Spellplague should be moved to the group with TONG due to their difficulty compared to the rest of the epics. Also,,, what's up with the auto disband at completion? Makes running a group oriented effort feel rather impersonal when you can no longer hang around a bit after if you want, and just saying thnx to your fellow players... change this back.. please
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I don't have any issues running the new system and earning AD even if I choose not to run RQ Dungeons. So my issue isn't I'm whining about the loss of AD, my issue personally is that this system brtally punishes those it was designed to help. Tried twice this morning queuing for eGWD, it didn't pop, normally it pops within 5 minutes, it'd be ironic if the RQ system actually killed pugging.
To test last night, I queued for 3 dungeons on 3 characters.
ETOS on SW (DPS) waited in queue for some time. No real change from before RQ.
ELOL in OP (Tank) Slightly shorter than DPS. No real change
ECC on DC (Healer) Instant. Even though the initial queue pop stalled out at 4/5, it popped again instantly.
ETOS and ELOL being more popular than ECC, if anything the results look completely unchanged except that my healer got faster queue time on a less popular dungeon.
As far as the runs themselves, they were all faster than before, preaumably because all of the pesky new players were excluded. So that helps *some* people.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I'm seeing a lot of people whining because it isn't as easy as it previously was for them to run through dungeons and scoop up the astral diamonds at the end...
Now if they are in a party, particularly a party with a lower level or inexperienced character they have to actually act like a party member instead of just running ahead and leaving the other people in the party to fend for themselves, I have zero sympathy for them.
As a player who tried on several occasions to do some of those dungeons only to find myself slogging through opponents some higher level member of the party could have easily taken care of, or at least should have assisted with - but didn't, I'm of the opinion this levels out the playing field nicely. When people are in a party they should quest as a party - not every player for themselves.
Dungeons and skirmishes are designed to be quested as a party, not a solo endeavor by some over powered character that only cares about getting to the chest at the end...
I happen to like the new random queue system if for no other reason that regardless of what kinds of gear or enchantments one player has, they are forced to play cooperatively with other party members or wait at the boss gate until the new or low level player is able to clean up the trash they left behind.
If the players who were only in the game to scoop up astral diamonds "don't want to play any more", so be it... they weren't really "playing" to begin with, they were just feeding their own greed and are now upset they can't do it as easily now.
Or at least that's my opinion, as unpopular as it will likely be for the whiners.
So it's "whining" to say the random shouldn't need 3 DPS? OK, I'd like to see you complete Hero's accord tough guy.
I'm seeing a lot of people whining because it isn't as easy as it previously was for them to run through dungeons and scoop up the astral diamonds at the end...
To test last night, I queued for 3 dungeons on 3 characters.
ETOS on SW (DPS) waited in queue for some time. No real change from before RQ.
ELOL in OP (Tank) Slightly shorter than DPS. No real change
ECC on DC (Healer) Instant. Even though the initial queue pop stalled out at 4/5, it popped again instantly.
ETOS and ELOL being more popular than ECC, if anything the results look completely unchanged except that my healer got faster queue time on a less popular dungeon.
As far as the runs themselves, they were all faster than before, preaumably because all of the pesky new players were excluded. So that helps *some* people.
Let us know how to get those dungeons all the time in the random queue and we will all be happy.
Im part of a small guild, and thats fine. Its just good friends and we didnt mind the slow building of the stronghold. However, since the the RQ system i can no longer run anything except the normal dungeons with them. There is only 2-3 people who can run the entire content in the game. My biggest issue is that our already slow stronghold progression is even slower because dungeonering shards are awarded for completing RQ epics and skirmishes. Why cant the cleric give quests for all the dungeons and skirmishes like he used to. I really hope the devs take this in to consideration because im sure that my little guild isnt the only one suffering.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,424Arc User
Im part of a small guild, and thats fine. Its just good friends and we didnt mind the slow building of the stronghold. However, since the the RQ system i can no longer run anything except the normal dungeons with them. There is only 2-3 people who can run the entire content in the game. My biggest issue is that our already slow stronghold progression is even slower because dungeonering shards are awarded for completing RQ epics and skirmishes. Why cant the cleric give quests for all the dungeons and skirmishes like he used to. I really hope the devs take this in to consideration because im sure that my little guild isnt the only one suffering.
That is an example of an innocent user comment that got interpreted the wrong way.
In the beginning, the SH dungeon quest was not even considered in the RQ scheme. Someone commented about in the line like "People who do SH dungeon to get shard will not get AD anymore in the new mod". Dev was like: "Thank you for the reminder and we will do something to cover that".
Now, this is dev's answer for that. "You get both AD and shard in one dungeon run now" except: 1. many can't do that dungeon run 2. many people do not do the run daily. They collect all the runs in weekday and do them all in weekend. You can't do that anymore.
Sigh!
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
@nitocris83 I know you already responded to say you are paying attention but that means absolutely nothing without action.
What we have is everyone telling you "the building is on fire" and your response to that is "we are paying very close attention to the fire and your feedback regarding that but we aren't prepared to do anything about it and can't talk about what we might do until we are actually doing it" which is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rediculous. Put the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> fire out!
Can you at the very least give us a time frame where you will say either you will do something about it or not? Even better a time frame to say exactly what you will do about it.
The quickest and easiest way to get lots of AD's is to buy them (*Notice I didn't say cheapest)...
There is a saying by Thomas Sowell - "when people are used to preferential treatment, being treated normally seems like discrimination".
People have just gotten used to quick and easy runs for lots of AD's and the higher level, with the better gear a player had the more they could make. Now the runs aren't quite so profitable, the playing field is more evened out, a lot of the gear prices in the auction house are going down but the people who got used to making tens of thousands of astral diamonds in a few runs are upset because they can't do that anymore.
I understand the frustration, I'm right there along with a lot of other people, but all in all I still believe the system is more fair for the average players who are actually playing the game instead of mostly grinding dungeons for AD's and I also think as a result there will be more new people who will be interested in playing Neverwinter.
I remember my frustration when the raised the character level cap from 60 to 70, I had my epic level 60 gear, could solo most areas and after the new MOD my purple epic level 60 gear was next to worthless, I frequently got instantly killed in areas I used to easily solo and was very upset - but I persevered, gradually obtained new better gear, more powerful enchantments and once again could survive quests in Sharandar and the Dread Ring even though I still took serious hits in most of the new areas until I could adapt to the new requirements.
Scrolling through the comments a good portion of them are complaining about not being able to make as many AD's as they used to, having to queue up with lower level, less experienced players who don't keep up with their runs to get to the chest at the end - again it's all about grinding for AD's at the end, not playing the game.
I'm told people used to be able to buy gasoline for less than a gallon - things change - not everyone is going to be happy with some changes but it happens none the less, sometimes it is even necessary and in the long term beneficial and I personally believe this is one of those cases. I also believe the positive that has come about outweighs the negative for a majority of players, not to mention new players.
A number of people have already expressed negative opinions regarding the random dungeon queue changes, but then I think there are an equal number of people, possibly more, who are happy with them... they just don't complain as much, count me among the latter.
Im part of a small guild, and thats fine. Its just good friends and we didnt mind the slow building of the stronghold. However, since the the RQ system i can no longer run anything except the normal dungeons with them. There is only 2-3 people who can run the entire content in the game. My biggest issue is that our already slow stronghold progression is even slower because dungeonering shards are awarded for completing RQ epics and skirmishes. Why cant the cleric give quests for all the dungeons and skirmishes like he used to. I really hope the devs take this in to consideration because im sure that my little guild isnt the only one suffering.
That is an example of an innocent user comment that got interpreted the wrong way.
In the beginning, the SH dungeon quest was not even considered in the RQ scheme. Someone commented about in the line like "People who do SH dungeon to get shard will not get AD anymore in the new mod". Dev was like: "Thank you for the reminder and we will do something to cover that".
Now, this is dev's answer for that. "You get both AD and shard in one dungeon run now" except: 1. many can't do that dungeon run 2. many people do not do the run daily. They collect all the runs in weekday and do them all in weekend. You can't do that anymore.
Sigh!
They also added that now there will be a daily Skirmish bonus, so you'll all be able to get more per day and since Skirmises aren't IL gated, anyone can get them...
And of course on dropping Random Skirmih Queue they implemented a gated Skirmish meaning no one below 10K could gain any Dungeoneers Shards at all.
I know that to some players one dungeon one skirmish per day fits easily into their schedule. But to many, that is not the way they play, and that;s not down to personbal choice that is down to the circumstance of their real world life. Being able to stack Cleric Quests and run three or four back to back on a weekend, or any other day that was convenient for them, was a neccessity rather than an option.
So its not just sub 10K with skirmishes and sub 11K with dungeons, its also lots of people who have all the requirements unlocked, for whom the change is an ill considered handicap to the way they play the game.
These are the sort of small problems that make people look at playing other games instead, where they DON'T have to compromise the way they log on and play due to decisions that seem to only exist, "Because... yeah..."
I don't RQ epics. My post was about a quick test of whether the stated goal of faster queue times was successful. I wasn't impressed.
But logic dictates that the popular queues from before will be the ones that don't really change that much.
Its about sets and factors. Sets (queues) and Factors (players) are both fairly fixed, the number of players available varoies according to time, but across the general average its about the same. If you are trying to fill sets with factors, you have a fixed number of sets and roughly fixed number of factors with which to fill them. So if you speed one dungeon up, you slow another down.
For people who cannot queue RQ, they will only be able to public queue for the dungeons they are eligible to enter. So they will not factor into the queues that Devs want speeding up. sub 11K people will continue to queue for dungeons the old fashioned way.
It is unpopular dungeons where people have been known to wait days for a group through public queue or never through a "LFG" in PE, RD, or SOMI. The 8.4K and below dungeons will slow down as 11k people (most likely tanks and healers) are dragged to queues where some 11.5K DPS has been qaiting to complete FBI. It is the healers in pareticular who will find that a queue will fire as soon as they start the queue.
This is because unpopular queues will take longer to fill... Because FBI and MSP will not see as many people using the traditional public queue, they will fast become the Oldest Queue, and that puts them at the head of the line for eligible players to the random queue, because....
RANDOM QUEUES ARE NOT RANDOM!!!!
You get sent to where "you are most needed" So since sub 11k tanks and clerics will be queueing for sub 11K dungeons those dungeons will pop at a slightly slower rate than before due to the split of DPS using random/standard queue, but FBI and MSP will fire faster because the clerics and tanks needed will be largely sent there first.
It WILL become worse when eventually TONG and the rest of the upcoming 12K dungeons drop into Random Queue, becaue there is no logic in the world that will convince me that increasing the sets while reducing the factors can do anything but slow the whole process down.
(P.S You might also be the unlucky DPS who gets thrown in with them... but hey-ho such is the way it works with Random Queues.)
Quite simply, the point many of us have been making all along is that FBI and MSP are T3 dungeons - in the same class/bracket as To9G. As such they need a T3 capable group.
They are completely different to T2s. Players require more of everything in terms of capability.
A T3 RQ bracket with FBI, MSP & T9G (plus an incentive to run it - e.g. guaranteed Ultimate Mark or Superior Enchantment once per day!) would see high level players all queuing up to get theirs whilst enabling mid level players to queue for T2s without the fear of getting into something they can't handle.
It would be a win for all sides.
More UM's & SE's on the AH bringing the price down for everyone, guilds can get their heroic shards, the RQ goal of making all dungeons run is met and the T3 RQ is entered knowingly with players prepared for the experience instead of voting to quit as soon as the timer allows.
You know it's the only thing that makes sense.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Quite simply, the point many of us have been making all along is that FBI and MSP are T3 dungeons - in the same class/bracket as To9G. As such they need a T3 capable group.
They are completely different to T2s. Players require more of everything in terms of capability.
A T3 RQ bracket with FBI, MSP & T9G (plus an incentive to run it - e.g. guaranteed Ultimate Mark or Superior Enchantment once per day!) would see high level players all queuing up to get theirs whilst enabling mid level players to queue for T2s without the fear of getting into something they can't handle.
It would be a win for all sides.
More UM's & SE's on the AH bringing the price down for everyone, guilds can get their heroic shards, the RQ goal of making all dungeons run is met and the T3 RQ is entered knowingly with players prepared for the experience instead of voting to quit as soon as the timer allows.
I would have preferred if they kept the old system and give us refined ad for random ques that way we arent forced but rewarded, and not let us make a grp for random ques so we're actually helping newer players
Comments
Random epic trial: nsva. Most of them afk'ing, barely 11k. Standing at the campfire and telling jokes. I was top dps on my AC DC using heals/DG/FF... When you were asking people to free from ice, joking again as an answer. "who cares i'll get my 100ish seals and my 9k ADs"
Random epic dungeon: mSP. A tank that doesnt know what itf is, wants to dps but barely outdps the cleric. Saying "im not a tank" but he wasnt a dps or a buffer either. He was, nothing. A walking shield.
Random epic trial again: tiamat. Afk'ers like most of the instance.
I could keep going on and on, i gave it a shot for a whole week.
I dont mind going and helping people running content without rushing it and explaining, but people that afk and dont even want to try, no thanks. Call me an elitist, i'll get over it.
Hero's accord: Ouh yea. No comment.
I tried all of that, multiple times on OP, DC, CW and HR. And yea, no thanks.
A group of 5 to 7 players who play at the same time.
They all have multiple capable toons that can play up to CN and they all can qualify to enter anything.
They don't need to PUG. They can switch toon to fill the requirement at will.
They can easily do RQ Level, RQ Skirmish and RQ Epic (up to CN).
For RQ Epic, they would just quit and take the penalty if that happens to be FBI and MSP. They can then switch to another toon to continue. Since they have a full party, the chance to get FBI and MSP is lower than individual and partial party.
I actually like the RQ Skirmish and Random normal dungeon, it's the easiest 20k I know how to make and I have several 11k+ characters I can run them with, every day, if I chose to, or had time to do and I can earn it in less than 20 minutes, compare that with 2xSkirmish and 2xeToS previously which is more like 30 minutes, gave less AD but potentially made up for it in salvage. But the RQ epic dungeon queue can go fly Air Thelma & Louise for all I care, as it is.
Talking Epic dungoens, I really do like the suggestions made by others that if FBI and MSP was put in the same queue as TONG a lot of this hate would just dissipate.
It's a good system, but punishing the small guilds this idea was meant to help and giving both new and old players a bad gaming experience by forcing them to run content they do not have the experience, time or gear isn't good for the players and I cannot see it being kept by Cryptic as it has (apparently) failed to achieve the results they were intended, worse, it has exacerbated them.
I agree completely, it has to be changed, not by a bit, but by a lot.
There is so much good feedback already and excuse me, if i may repeat some of it, didn't have time to read all through.
I see s few big problems with random queues.
1. Alliances are merely obsolete now. People still run the end game dungeons in the old meta and mostly in closed groups or in zerg channels, they use the alliance chat mostly, well you have it, just to chat. Only valid point now for an alliance is just the social aspect, not much else.
2. The old Tiamat phenomenon has emerged again, we have bunch of AFKers, leechers and people, who just artificially pump up their IL, but can not contribute to a successful outcome.
Don't get me wrong, i happily carry a "newbie" through anything, if he/she is committed, but seeing people clothing in their toons with skins and rings, that don't even belong to their builds or are just pure obsolete PVP rings (cowardice, etc.) and do no DPS at all or don't help them to play support a tiny bit and to top it, this comes from a seasoned player on his/her alt, then i lose my faith.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
We won in 3 rd round with just a few seconds left.. that was unnecessary close, and the reason was too many people that had no clue.
While I do see that a positive effect of the RQs is to give more new players the opportunity to run heavy content, this is being abused by people that don't care to contribute and just want to leech.
And that does not work well in the heaviest content.
Sadly, the new model for leveling random queue means that anyone who was doing the same and power running leveling solos now has to inflict themselves on sub 70 players. I'd say fewer than 20% in my experience follow the example you suggest. ...and THIS is the end result.
If some new player, at say... L50 or 60, looks at the leveling queue and realises that they don't get to bypass the whole "more powerful players dashing off and spoiling it" till they hit at least IL 11'000 what is their incentive?
They look at their current IL at 2-3K and they are going to think, "This will never end..." so their experience of one of the most important part of the game. (The "DUNGEON" part of Dungeons and Dragons) is a complete waste of time and effort.
Hardly a hook to keep them on the line of playing the game in the future. (I know they like fishing, so fishing analogies might help...) Sadly, they won't move FBI and MSP unless there is a major shift in outlook.
Whatever else they say, the only reason for the RQ system to be structured the way it is, is to corral players into those two dungeons. Were it for any other reason, there are half a dozen ways it could have been done better.
And its not like that is only just becomming apparent now.
All the problems currently being experienced were obvious from the announcement and were pointed out ad infinitum across nearly 50 pages of people wailing about the obvious flaws, on the preview thread.
It was released regardless, and as day follows night, the obvious problems began.
Nothing so far that people are complaing about wasn't foreseen, expected and pointed out.
If you are about to drop an expensive vase off a building and everyone says "if you do that... it will break" you only drop the vase if it doesn't bother you that it will break or you don't trust the opinion of other people.
And then when people say "Why did you do that? The vase is broken!!!" just shruggng and saying "We're taking that on board... and considering our vase dropping options. We will make a statement in the future." makes people wonder what the decision making process is that allows things like that to happen.
One of the biggest issues with that discussion was the way that when a question was asked, and an answer given by devs, follow up questions requesting explanation and clarification on the given answer, were met with the reply that the questioned had been answered and they were not prepared to keep going over the same things.
Like;
"How does the internal combustion engine work?"
"Because... blue."
"Sorry, I'm not sure I understand that... could you explain the thinking behind that reply..."
"The question has been answered, and no further explanation will be forthcoming"
It was a very furstrating thread, which lead to a very frustrating roll out.
I hate the random dungeon system.... for all of the reasons mentioned above and in other threads all over the place... I have limited weekday play time so i end up doing a lowbie dungeon which I used to solo cause quick...now i get to destroy the experiences of poor new players on a daily bases.
And no, I will not, no way run a pug random epic, not when it could be FBI / TONG/ MSP.
im in a guild with mostly americans so they are sleeping when i get home.
Now i run 3 people RQ's monday till Friday ... and epics with my own guild on weekends only ...
I aint teaching nobody nothing...
I hate this system ... and I feel so sorry for all the new shiney 70's who cant even do a MC or a VT ... to get BOTH AD and salvage and guild stuffs.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If they need to show MSP and FBI being played, then simple solution: pull them out of the random queue and give them a chance to drop Ultimates. Quit being stubborn and stingy about loot, it's killing the game. Remember when people would advertise in LFG for CN 3/4 etc. to farm ancient gear and seals. (Back when the player base hadn't been chased off by a parade of poor decisions)? I think they could take a page from that if they aren't prepared to go back to BoE.
Bosses should not be dropping peridots or nothing at all. I'm not sure what color the sky is at Cryptic on that one, but they aren't "getting it". Hati farm will not appeal to all players. Meaningful and widely sought after loot that can drop at any boss will pull people into dungeons. CN and lower can stay in the random queue as a novelty for those that rely on it for their AD *IF* they insist on carrying on with this train wreck.
Now if they are in a party, particularly a party with a lower level or inexperienced character they have to actually act like a party member instead of just running ahead and leaving the other people in the party to fend for themselves, I have zero sympathy for them.
As a player who tried on several occasions to do some of those dungeons only to find myself slogging through opponents some higher level member of the party could have easily taken care of, or at least should have assisted with - but didn't, I'm of the opinion this levels out the playing field nicely. When people are in a party they should quest as a party - not every player for themselves.
Dungeons and skirmishes are designed to be quested as a party, not a solo endeavor by some over powered character that only cares about getting to the chest at the end...
I happen to like the new random queue system if for no other reason that regardless of what kinds of gear or enchantments one player has, they are forced to play cooperatively with other party members or wait at the boss gate until the new or low level player is able to clean up the trash they left behind.
If the players who were only in the game to scoop up astral diamonds "don't want to play any more", so be it... they weren't really "playing" to begin with, they were just feeding their own greed and are now upset they can't do it as easily now.
Or at least that's my opinion, as unpopular as it will likely be for the whiners.
If I see any changes that should be made, is that as others have suggested, that FBI and epic Spellplague should be moved to the group with TONG due to their difficulty compared to the rest of the epics.
Also,,, what's up with the auto disband at completion? Makes running a group oriented effort feel rather impersonal when you can no longer hang around a bit after if you want, and just saying thnx to your fellow players... change this back.. please
ETOS on SW (DPS) waited in queue for some time. No real change from before RQ.
ELOL in OP (Tank) Slightly shorter than DPS. No real change
ECC on DC (Healer) Instant. Even though the initial queue pop stalled out at 4/5, it popped again instantly.
ETOS and ELOL being more popular than ECC, if anything the results look completely unchanged except that my healer got faster queue time on a less popular dungeon.
As far as the runs themselves, they were all faster than before, preaumably because all of the pesky new players were excluded. So that helps *some* people.
So it's "whining" to say the random shouldn't need 3 DPS? OK, I'd like to see you complete Hero's accord tough guy.
In the beginning, the SH dungeon quest was not even considered in the RQ scheme.
Someone commented about in the line like "People who do SH dungeon to get shard will not get AD anymore in the new mod".
Dev was like: "Thank you for the reminder and we will do something to cover that".
Now, this is dev's answer for that. "You get both AD and shard in one dungeon run now" except:
1. many can't do that dungeon run
2. many people do not do the run daily. They collect all the runs in weekday and do them all in weekend. You can't do that anymore.
Sigh!
What we have is everyone telling you "the building is on fire" and your response to that is "we are paying very close attention to the fire and your feedback regarding that but we aren't prepared to do anything about it and can't talk about what we might do until we are actually doing it" which is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rediculous. Put the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> fire out!
Can you at the very least give us a time frame where you will say either you will do something about it or not? Even better a time frame to say exactly what you will do about it.
There is a saying by Thomas Sowell - "when people are used to preferential treatment, being treated normally seems like discrimination".
People have just gotten used to quick and easy runs for lots of AD's and the higher level, with the better gear a player had the more they could make. Now the runs aren't quite so profitable, the playing field is more evened out, a lot of the gear prices in the auction house are going down but the people who got used to making tens of thousands of astral diamonds in a few runs are upset because they can't do that anymore.
I understand the frustration, I'm right there along with a lot of other people, but all in all I still believe the system is more fair for the average players who are actually playing the game instead of mostly grinding dungeons for AD's and I also think as a result there will be more new people who will be interested in playing Neverwinter.
I remember my frustration when the raised the character level cap from 60 to 70, I had my epic level 60 gear, could solo most areas and after the new MOD my purple epic level 60 gear was next to worthless, I frequently got instantly killed in areas I used to easily solo and was very upset - but I persevered, gradually obtained new better gear, more powerful enchantments and once again could survive quests in Sharandar and the Dread Ring even though I still took serious hits in most of the new areas until I could adapt to the new requirements.
Scrolling through the comments a good portion of them are complaining about not being able to make as many AD's as they used to, having to queue up with lower level, less experienced players who don't keep up with their runs to get to the chest at the end - again it's all about grinding for AD's at the end, not playing the game.
I'm told people used to be able to buy gasoline for less than a gallon - things change - not everyone is going to be happy with some changes but it happens none the less, sometimes it is even necessary and in the long term beneficial and I personally believe this is one of those cases. I also believe the positive that has come about outweighs the negative for a majority of players, not to mention new players.
A number of people have already expressed negative opinions regarding the random dungeon queue changes, but then I think there are an equal number of people, possibly more, who are happy with them... they just don't complain as much, count me among the latter.
And of course on dropping Random Skirmih Queue they implemented a gated Skirmish meaning no one below 10K could gain any Dungeoneers Shards at all.
I know that to some players one dungeon one skirmish per day fits easily into their schedule.
But to many, that is not the way they play, and that;s not down to personbal choice that is down to the circumstance of their real world life. Being able to stack Cleric Quests and run three or four back to back on a weekend, or any other day that was convenient for them, was a neccessity rather than an option.
So its not just sub 10K with skirmishes and sub 11K with dungeons, its also lots of people who have all the requirements unlocked, for whom the change is an ill considered handicap to the way they play the game.
These are the sort of small problems that make people look at playing other games instead, where they DON'T have to compromise the way they log on and play due to decisions that seem to only exist, "Because... yeah..."
Its about sets and factors.
Sets (queues) and Factors (players) are both fairly fixed, the number of players available varoies according to time, but across the general average its about the same.
If you are trying to fill sets with factors, you have a fixed number of sets and roughly fixed number of factors with which to fill them. So if you speed one dungeon up, you slow another down.
For people who cannot queue RQ, they will only be able to public queue for the dungeons they are eligible to enter. So they will not factor into the queues that Devs want speeding up. sub 11K people will continue to queue for dungeons the old fashioned way.
It is unpopular dungeons where people have been known to wait days for a group through public queue or never through a "LFG" in PE, RD, or SOMI. The 8.4K and below dungeons will slow down as 11k people (most likely tanks and healers) are dragged to queues where some 11.5K DPS has been qaiting to complete FBI. It is the healers in pareticular who will find that a queue will fire as soon as they start the queue.
This is because unpopular queues will take longer to fill...
Because FBI and MSP will not see as many people using the traditional public queue, they will fast become the Oldest Queue, and that puts them at the head of the line for eligible players to the random queue, because....
RANDOM QUEUES ARE NOT RANDOM!!!!
You get sent to where "you are most needed"
So since sub 11k tanks and clerics will be queueing for sub 11K dungeons those dungeons will pop at a slightly slower rate than before due to the split of DPS using random/standard queue, but FBI and MSP will fire faster because the clerics and tanks needed will be largely sent there first.
It WILL become worse when eventually TONG and the rest of the upcoming 12K dungeons drop into Random Queue, becaue there is no logic in the world that will convince me that increasing the sets while reducing the factors can do anything but slow the whole process down.
(P.S You might also be the unlucky DPS who gets thrown in with them... but hey-ho such is the way it works with Random Queues.)
They are completely different to T2s. Players require more of everything in terms of capability.
A T3 RQ bracket with FBI, MSP & T9G (plus an incentive to run it - e.g. guaranteed Ultimate Mark or Superior Enchantment once per day!) would see high level players all queuing up to get theirs whilst enabling mid level players to queue for T2s without the fear of getting into something they can't handle.
It would be a win for all sides.
More UM's & SE's on the AH bringing the price down for everyone, guilds can get their heroic shards, the RQ goal of making all dungeons run is met and the T3 RQ is entered knowingly with players prepared for the experience instead of voting to quit as soon as the timer allows.
You know it's the only thing that makes sense.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox