You can easily avoid the DR debuff too though. Just try to stay calm and don't panic when there are many stuff around going on. Those AoEs are actually the only mechanic I like in that dungeon, because its the closest thing I will get to a dance dance revoltion type of boss mechanic anytime soon I think.
Ras nsi shreds plenty of Hp and Op uses templars wrath and gains 500k + every 6 secs.No need to position ,face enemy or whatever. OP has to pay attention to one thing=hit the TW to refresh it. Its bonus are passive (auras) and dont need cast time. More over,its buffs do not require any coordination.Like GFs.ex: mark and then apply Com strike. Not to mention that the final boss fight forces Gf to swap encounters in the mid of the fight ,vs ghosts. Single boss=Com Strike/ITF/KV ,vs ghost phase=ET/ITF/KV. Op uses the same rotation.
The problem is not to avoid the aoe.The problem is that for the same result a GF must strive 3x as an OP.
Prot Op has too many buffs.Free power,shared by aura gifts,plus 2 auras ,plus bane and echo of light/flash of light synergy. Plus huge temp hp and care free gameplay.it does not require any special gear either: they go full crit/power.Recovery they have it for free with echoes of light,aura of wisdom and Justice final feat.
It is amazing that OP has reached the status of N1 tank in NW with out any buff,from the days of the OP community bitching in the late mod9.It just shows how incompetent at using their full buff potential,most of them were at that time.
And the number of GFs that was posted that run ToNG is highly deceptive:They are the same and same Gf over and over again that play the speedbot amongside an OP.These are Gfs that have accepted their secondary role and run with friends and zerg channels.Most of the Gfs will barely see the toNg at all.
Edit: It is painfull to see Gfs in elite channels posting for an hour "17k Gf loking for ToNG".How we have come to this
Hyper said it right. The only groups my GF is successful with are the ones already running a protector pally.......to do the actual tanking.
Pally’s have a cruise control style of tanking that we just can’t hold a candle to. For this reason I prefer dps and dps/hybrid and most assuredly prefer doing the hardest content with 2 dc’s a pally and a random dps.
At the end of the day it is about group composition more than your GF build versus the next guy’s build. Everyone has figured out that the pally can out tank us, but we can out dps most anyone in single target damage. And that is why we as a group will defend our ability to do dps from the trolls who visit this page. It’s all we have left that really/truly stands out as part of a winning combination.
If they ever fix our feats, powers and class features then maybe we can compete with pallys in pure tanking and buffing. Fixes have been hashed out amongst us on more than one occasion in the past. I keep my fingers crossed.
Generally, I think 3.GF defense mechanism -Block-is action based.And provides only frontal /side protection when it is activated.In the ghosts phase,GF is in the middle of atacks:By Ran Si and the ghosts.Gf needs to face the ghosts to mark and to use Commader Strike .That means he is vulnerable against Ran Si or more usually to the DPS or the cleric (more often) that do not paying attention to Ran Si at that phase and get a hit,and through KV get GF in trouble.
The one thing I hated about the older boss designs is that you could basically just post up in front of the boss, hold shield, cast ITF and ET, and manage stamina. You never really had to worry about where you were pointing your shield since there was only one angle of attack.
On the Souls, I'm actually somewhat glad that pointing your shield in the right direction is needed, it keeps me on my toes. Though, it is actually possible to keep an angle which allows you to shield the boss and face the souls.
You'll always need to lower your shield to use CS, which was always a risk.
Far >90% of GF´s I met run a supporter spec, and the ones that run beside a prot OP can´t be considered to actually tank those bosses. The GF´s I run with so far as solo tank, gave up at last boss or earlier, even runnning with 2 DC´s and a templock for instant heal, sadly. Maybe I meat the wrong GF´s, but since every OP solved that dungeon till now, it has to be more than only bad gameplay.
OPs have it easier tanking, sure, but if your Tactician or Protector can't solotank with double DCs and a Templock...
I am at a loss for words, especially when you don't even need FR with the Templock.
2.Ran Si is quite small for a boss: and has large AoE attacks.DPS classes tend to get in Gfs way .If two of them get the overhand IBS of the boss,Gf is killed by KV.
Why are the DPS standing shoulder to shoulder with you? If your DPS refuses to move, then move yourself.
You can actually stand with your back to the ledge, but you'll need careful positioning to do it.
If they ever fix our feats, powers and class features then maybe we can compete with pallys in pure tanking and buffing. Fixes have been hashed out amongst us on more than one occasion in the past. I keep my fingers crossed.
Impossible in the tanking department, so as long as Paladin is unchanged. No GF, no matter how good you are, can facetank Call of Winter. Tankadin can.
Note that I don't advocate for nerfing any classes, and definitely not for nerfing the other useful tank class in the game, because tanks are harder to come by when compared to the number of DPS classes.
For buffing, idk, maybe we could have a weakened version of prepatch ITF placed in the Tactician tree. A Tactician feat (or capstone) wherein 50% of your nonbuffed Damage Resistance Score or something (if we included buffed damage resistance, Shepherd's Devotion would basically turn that feat into prepatch ITF, and we ideally want to avoid a re-run of that situation).
A large issue with GF in terms of buffing is that none of our buffs scale with gear (technically, if you look at Martial Mastery, GF buffs get worse with gear). But I'd rather not ask for a GF rework when there are two classes which desperately need a rework.
@rjc9000 We did not said the ToNG as a GF solo tank is unwinnable. We said it demands a lot more effort.
For your advice about souls etc ,we agree,what I said is that is a phase when a teamamte of yours scew up( DC with back on Ra nSi =90% of the cases ,and takes an IBS) ,Gf can get in trouble. You talk about risk...what risk has an OP in that phase.NONE.
As about your loss of words ,not all people have same latency,gear or gaming hardware.Maybe other factors were at play there. ex: incompetent DCs that were casting same powers,DPS that was pvp specced,etc.
As about the DPS-group-buffers standing next to me,this happened in all my runs with different people.People dont know classes ,are lazy,think a Gf is as an OP.He cannot die. So they dont pay attention where they are. As for repositioning I do that all the time.But as people surround Ra nSi ,sometimes I have nowhere to go. :P Usually the CW ,or most common the dc ,will come toe to toe with me and get the IBS.
As about standing with back on the ledge I think this is realy a bad advice:Cause sometimes the Ghost-Azekerak Acererek or somethinh like that :P :P does not show up at all or laugh ,just pulls :P .This happens in laggy instances ,most of the times in the first pull-trample mechanism.So to minimize the danger of happening you need to be between center and edge.
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As for Paladins... You know in some arguments some people exaggerate so to throw their mental opponents off balance.The next thing I am going to say ,seems like that:but is not.I fully mean it.
There is no salvation for fixing the prot Op,nothing can be done.The fundamentals that this class was built,were all wrong and broken.Class cannot be fixed now.Maybe one two months after release.Now it is too late. A defender class that tanks through offense.Period stop. Only solution is devs to adjust content to it,meaning to add dazes/stuns to the final bosses.
I am strogly against any additional buff as utility/group ,to the Gf.it will not help,it will cripple us even more.We will be sentenced for ever to be the weak siblings of Prot Op and to be invited as speedbots.
As for any discussion about class rework,if that discussio opens,with the hate going on,we will lose the battle and Gf will be nerfed.We dont need that or to gain the broken status of prot OP. Only solution is the devs to make content that does not favour the OP.
OP eats GF for breakfast at anything that is not personal dps, I believe tac and protector seriously need a rework, tac GF should buff much more than other GF specs and any OP build as it is squishier and has little dps, protector could mitigate considerably more damage than it does now so it would end up like this:
Conqueror GF:
Gets owned by OP at anything that is not personal dps.
Protector GF:
Gets owned by OP at anything that is not party protection.
Tactician GF:
Gets owned by OP at anything that is not buffing party damage. Only DC should buff a bit more.
Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock.
It begs the question if perhaps the paladin is the class that needs rework. The first obvious problem, as has been mentioned countless times, is the fact that it never has to worry about being flanked, if a class has such a big advantage one would think that it needs to be traded off with some other big shortcoming, right now I don't see any.
> @clericalist said: > Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock. > > It begs the question if perhaps the paladin is the class that needs rework. The first obvious problem, as has been mentioned countless times, is the fact that it never has to worry about being flanked, if a class has such a big advantage one would think that it needs to be traded off with some other big shortcoming, right now I don't see any.
You see, the problem there is that that great perfomance comes from mostly 1 tree (Justice) and 1 feat, Aura Gifts (Light), simply put, paladin is the Great Weapon Fighter of the tanks, they do great if they build with the one option they have and underperform horribly if they deviate from that, no pure/mostly Bulwark/Light built paladin could come remotely close to the perfomance of a Justice one.
As GF has 3 usable trees, the 2 inferior ones (protector and tac) simply need a substantial buff to what they're (suboptimally) specialised at which is protecting (prot) and buffing (tac)
As a random example, prot could mitigate damage far more than it does now (mitigating enemy damage down to laughable levels, even Ras Hni would hit like a wet noodle), the capstone also could passively grant 10% - 30% lifesteal and/or deflection chance to allies standing nearby the GF and tac could buff much more than it does as it does now (so ITF could go up to 60% - 73% damage buff), commander's strike could be buffed up to 60% or 75% (up from 40%) damage bonus as an extra hit off an ally encounter and the capstone could passively grant a good 7% - 10% ap every 3 seconds and 10% - 30% movement speed bonus to allies standing nearby the GF and there you have it, conqueror much better at dpsing, prot at mitigating damage and tac at buffing. Each path would be great at one thing but would be average to bad at the rest, much like conq GF is squishy like wet toilet paper and prot/tac gf has hardcore low personal dps so, in that sense, OP would be more versatille and overall better but, when comparing to 1 thing (personal dps, protecting or buffing) it would be outperformed by GF by quite a lot as that would be what the guardian specialised for.
GF has the option to be an specialist though prot and tac are underperforming specs that need serious buffs.
OP has the option to be great with 1 build but deviating from that comes with a huge perfomance drop.
> @clericalist said: > Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock. > > It begs the question if perhaps the paladin is the class that needs rework. The first obvious problem, as has been mentioned countless times, is the fact that it never has to worry about being flanked, if a class has such a big advantage one would think that it needs to be traded off with some other big shortcoming, right now I don't see any.
When I started playing this game NO ONE wanted paladin tanks. It was post bubble nerf and the prime era of immortal DPS GF's with AA shields.
We have managed to remake our builds after two substantial nerfs (bubble and BO) and we are finally sought after again. GF's are also desirable, mostly in the form of DPS GF's but also buffers. Many would argue the 2DC, 1 OP, 1GF, 1 DPS group is the best for T9G. Some would argue 2DC, 1OP, and 2 GF are even better. So I am not interested in GF's crying about another OP nerf just because they don't get to play GF the way they want. OP has exactly one viable path also, that being the Justice path. It can be argued that most DPS classes are obsolete in the current meta so ain't no one got time for GF sob stories. Leave the OP alone.
An OP should not talk about "immortality".Prot path is broken from day one ,since you "tank",defend through offense...
A Gf has to invest in DR and recovery in order to defend ,"to tank".You ,I mean the Op community completely ignores these two stats.And tanks through offense.
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To the essense of the thread: We do not want,ehm,I do not want your class "nerfed". There is no salvation,with out rage quitting and game to be in trouble. It is not coinsidense that when someone wants to make a Defender in NW ,choses an OP.It is far easier. Having said that,you are noumerous now,the "GWF of tanks".And as the GWF ,you are spoiled as community and learned the easy way.Only to ask nerfs for other classes.("Gf has too many self buffs") So no nerf for Ops ,at least from me o/
I apologize for the emo GF comment The person I responded to was arguing the OP should be reworked, so some people are calling for a nerf. I really resent it when people call for nerfs of other classes.
GF's are in a fine place. They can arguably take two spots in a BiS end game group. I am sorry you only have one viable end game path, join the club. Considering how little love TRs, CWs and even SWs get in T9G I think it is silly, of all classes, for GFs to be upset about the current meta. The fastestT9G run I have seen, 13 minutes, was a two GF run.
> @hypervoreian said: > thrill: > > "prime era of immortal DPS GF's with AA shields." > > This is an argument or what? > > An OP should not talk about "immortality".Prot path is broken from day one ,since you "tank",defend through offense... > > A Gf has to invest in DR and recovery in order to defend ,"to tank".You ,I mean the Op community completely ignores these two stats.And tanks through offense. > > > --------------- > > To the essense of the thread: > We do not want,ehm,I do not want your class "nerfed". There is no salvation,with out rage quitting and game to be in trouble. > It is not coinsidense
What my comment meant was that before the AA nerf DPS GFs were able to "tank" and no one wanted OPs at all. People essentially ran with no tank. We may be immortal but we do nowhere near the damage that the immortal DPS GF did. I have heard of 65 million crits on a DPS GF. I am lucky to hit 1/10th of that in a single blow.
I feel no sympathy for a class that can still fill 40% of the slots on an end game group. You are one of the most powerful classes in the game. The OP has reclaimed a place in the game and GFs are doing fine. If the developers drop the nerf hammer on the DPS GF then we can start talking about balancing GFs and OPs.
To be honest you don't even have to be a DPS GF to get T9G groups. I have seen plenty of 4 buffs and a DPS groups with non conqueror GF. And I have seen GF's tank T9G with no OP. I am not sure what all the grief is about.
Yes most end game groups want a pally and two DC's, but they often also want AT LEAST one GF, sometimes two.
^^^^ This is what happens if you are too much polite,as I was.
Two broken OPs come to your forums and start trolling and complaining saying BS most of the time and throwing poison.
Pretty sure ,if I was in the temple/library-whatever the name of their subforum- and started saying the same BS,I would be called "troll"
My mistake I shouldn't have edited my last post,trying -in vain- to avoid throwing fuel to the fire.I should have been my true self
Thrill ..."I feel no sympathy for a class".Yeah mate? I dont feel any sympathy for your community ,since most of you are incompetent.Every time I see an OP video I yawn.
Predevallant: Posting one video proves nothing ,any toon that takes the position of a Striker in a well coordianted party will do too much damage.And this run is not legit. The greatest the pool you take from similar results ,the more common you are in the truth.And this in PC,is that the striker position is taken by GWFs.For xbox,i dont know ,nor do I care,since gameplay ability wise PC>Xbox. You are always one mod late in builds,meta and effieciency.
And news for you...the fastest run in PC was 12 mins.And the DPS was not Gf or GWF......Dont ask for video ,it does not exist for the reason that the class in question is due to receive a buff.So it kinda remains some kind of secret.
Well, no one in OP forum is crying about nerfing the GF(try the GWF forum) so we can fill three out of five slots in an endgame group.
I also have a 12k GF so this is my forum just as much as it is yours. Just love the hypocrisy of the most over powered class in the game crying about pally's getting one spot in a T9G group.
I frequently watch a 15k buff tank GF on twitch who runs all kinds of T9G groups. Single cleric, healadins, no pally at all, etc. His runs aren't always perfect but he gets it done and he even takes the orbs because he thinks it is fun. If you can't tank T9G with a GF then maybe it is a YOU problem.
Funny how a post that originated as a “how to” question, morphs into another nerf the GF crusade.
This is how a post that would otherwise be quite helpful for those who need the advice.....turns into something on the verge of being deleted by a dev/moderator type person. And then the helpful hints and good info get lost. Not cool.
I think that BD or debuff must be rework, this a new video from the HR-buffer (i am GF) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwKPW5KvXNY Now I need to deal third of the damage(250kk-300kk), after which BD with 300% debuff finishes the Orcus. Debuffs should not work for a bloody death, it needs to be fixed
My GF tanked everything up to T2.5. At Tong I really gave up to invest into tanking spec, even though I allready own that "tankingstuff", I simply can´t full fill the role in there, maybe at maxed gear. GF is soooo inferior in everything vs OP in terms of tanking, powerbuff, Aura of courage deals crazy ammount for GWF, CW, TR, GF 15-20%, encounetr reset , HP boost, autoaggro, up to 7 mio temp HP in buffer groups (someone told me, it´s like that..) Sry but with 7 mio temp HP you simply can do the dishes and come back later .
Running random you have much more issues to get things done, 2-3 out of 5 player normally can´t do the job as they should, no blame, but that´s simply the average setup. Atm there seems to be less "capable" player online, maybe they are done and wait for double enchant week. The best results I get by far is by running my own DC, simlpy because I can buff the group, and run the needed stuff to do so. I gave up on my warlock (near dead), except I decided to abuse bugs, but that will only hurt the class even more.
That speedrun looks broken somehow, but maybe just 5x good player (if that´s the result, gj), no bugs involved?
Post edited by schietindebux on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
My GF tanked everything up to T2.5. At Tong I really gave up to invest into tanking spec, even though I allready own that "tankingstuff", I simply can´t full fill the role in there, maybe at maxed gear. GF is soooo inferior in everything vs OP, powerbuff, Aura of courage deals crazy ammount for GWF, CW, TR, GF 15-20%, encounetr reset , HP boost, autoaggro, up to 7 mio temp HP in buffer groups (someone told me, it´s like that..) Sry but with 7 mio temp HP you simply can do the dishes and come back later .
Running random you have much more issues to get things done, 2-3 out of 5 player normally can´t do the job as they should, no blame, but that´s simply the average setup. Atm there seems to be less "capable" player online, maybe they are done and wait for double enchant week. The best results I get by far is by running my own DC, simlpy because I can buff the group, and run the needed stuff to do so. I gave up on my warlock (near dead), except I decided to abuse bugs, but that will only hurt the class even more.
That speedrun looks broken somehow, but maybe just 5x good player (if that´s the result, gj), no bugs involved?
@schietindebux they are simply taking advantage of the bloody death curse mechanic. The way it works is it deals 75% of your hit as an additional hit, but it also scales with debuffs. So, say you have 300% effectiveness, deal 100 damage before debuffs and 300 damage after debuffs. The bloody death proc will have a base value of 0.75*300, which is 225. That 225 damage will then benefit from debuffs again, for a final value of 675 damage. As a result of this, the dps will hit for 300 damage+675 damage, which is 975 damage. The curse effectively multiplied their damage by 3.25.
You can see in the video everyone is using pretty much every debuff they can, OP using bronzewood? 1 DC using dread, another using pf, hr using debuff artifact (he should have used dread and not fey as well probably, since hes basically a support here) and he is using thorn ward, commanding shot+lss. All they are doing is stacking every buff and debuff they can and then having 1 player do dps. 1 mistake they do make imo is the dps are not using debuff pets, since the debuff applies twice at the boss. For a faster kill, 100% they should both use a debuff pet.
You can see in the video everyone is using pretty much every debuff they can, OP using bronzewood? 1 DC using dread, another using pf, hr using debuff artifact (he should have used dread and not fey as well probably, since hes basically a support here) and he is using thorn ward, commanding shot+lss. All they are doing is stacking every buff and debuff they can and then having 1 player do dps. 1 mistake they do make imo is the dps are not using debuff pets, since the debuff applies twice at the boss. For a faster kill, 100% they should both use a debuff pet.
As you can see, HR used debuff ench in Orcus and FT in others. And about debuff pet's - we tryied and succeced. But it's not cheap and comfortable to have 2 different pet's. We found that we have enough debuffs with 2 archonts so no need in additional debuffs.
Thx for the answers. Maybe I am confused but what debuffs an archon, except buffing your dps?
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @schietindebux said: > Thx for the answers. Maybe I am confused but what debuffs an archon, except buffing your dps?
Archons (fire, air) are only personal DPS buffs , correct? Sellsword trio, dancing shield and conartist seem to be more useful for whole-party DPS boost. In a boss fight like Ras Nisi, I should think the latter would be more optimal... if they don't get tipped over the ledge!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I have a 16k Tactitian GF (for dungeon runs I never use Conc loadout) and a 15k OP, if lag causes me to miss time raising my shield on Ras Nsi, am nothing more than a Sentinel GWF with no shield.
First few times I was there it was very hectic. Massive hit's taken via KV, I was almost afraid to drop my shield for a second
On the topic of Pallys, I recently made some work on my alt (I know I said I will never do this but...). Tried some dungeons with normal bondings, absolutely no boons (apart from Guild ones, lvl 20) and it was a breeze.
Tanking as a Palladin is a completely different story, so SO much easier.
Yes and no I have one of each and some dungeons seem way easier on one type of tank versus the other.
The open world and soloing really seems to belong to the GF
Right now this particular dungeon seems way easier for the OP. We are trying to figure out how to get our GF brethren through this dungeon just as easily - seems there is a trick to the first boss we haven't figured out yet, but we fully expect the second boss to be easier for the GF.
I got convinced last night to try out my GF in T9. The run was very smooth. I stayed as a Tac build for the damage reduction to the group and bonus AP as well for the double DC's. We had no issues until the last boss.
I know what the issue is; the boss seems to do a DoT and it literally ate my HP away rather quickly. Prior to jumping into the last boss our time in the dungeon was a bit under 20 minutes, which is almost the same with the OP I run with.
I need to figure out how not to die on the last boss. I tried Steel Defense and that did not work. Anyone have any pointers for the last boss.
His average DoT hit was around 80K with over 90% DR and my shield up. Ugh....
I got convinced last night to try out my GF in T9. The run was very smooth. I stayed as a Tac build for the damage reduction to the group and bonus AP as well for the double DC's. We had no issues until the last boss.
I know what the issue is; the boss seems to do a DoT and it literally ate my HP away rather quickly. Prior to jumping into the last boss our time in the dungeon was a bit under 20 minutes, which is almost the same with the OP I run with.
I need to figure out how not to die on the last boss. I tried Steel Defense and that did not work. Anyone have any pointers for the last boss.
His average DoT hit was around 80K with over 90% DR and my shield up. Ugh....
I typically have to run my DC in T9G because we don't have enough of them, but recently I've been trying to get a few runs in a week on my GF and the burn dot is very much a problem. It's somewhat out of your hands, you have to hope you can get it cleansed enough so it doesn't end up dropping you when things aren't going your way. One thing I did was to make sure I always have Kneebreaker on Ras Nsi so if the DC hopefully can keep Astral Seal up on him I can get maximum chance for cleanse to clear it. I also used Fighter's Recovery when needed/possible and then pots/healthstone/scroll of life (LOL). I'm not going to lie, it's still a problem for us when we are running just 1 DC, and last night I had to switch to Tact loadout to get through the fight alive.
Just my (limited) experience so far, others may have better suggestions.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
> Thx for the answers. Maybe I am confused but what debuffs an archon, except buffing your dps?
Archons (fire, air) are only personal DPS buffs , correct?
Sellsword trio, dancing shield and conartist seem to be more useful for whole-party DPS boost.
In a boss fight like Ras Nisi, I should think the latter would be more optimal... if they don't get tipped over the ledge!
SO in a meta party we care for the whole party dps boost ? ac dc has resist ignore -85%? paladin has the same damage as a regular damage dealer ? do perhaps some good damage? and the rest two use archons where is the issue?
Ran it successful last night and only went down 1 time on the last boss. Run would have been much better if no one went AFK. That is the lone reason why I see my T9 runs go from around 30 minutes to about an hour. The other issue is the last boss dying prior to the end scene and having to redo the last boss.
As for needing a META group to complete T9 is garbage. You just need communication and understanding of mechanics.
Comments
You can easily avoid the DR debuff too though. Just try to stay calm and don't panic when there are many stuff around going on. Those AoEs are actually the only mechanic I like in that dungeon, because its the closest thing I will get to a dance dance revoltion type of boss mechanic anytime soon I think.
OP has to pay attention to one thing=hit the TW to refresh it.
Its bonus are passive (auras) and dont need cast time.
More over,its buffs do not require any coordination.Like GFs.ex: mark and then apply Com strike.
Not to mention that the final boss fight forces Gf to swap encounters in the mid of the fight ,vs ghosts.
Single boss=Com Strike/ITF/KV ,vs ghost phase=ET/ITF/KV.
Op uses the same rotation.
The problem is not to avoid the aoe.The problem is that for the same result a GF must strive 3x as an OP.
Prot Op has too many buffs.Free power,shared by aura gifts,plus 2 auras ,plus bane and echo of light/flash of light synergy.
Plus huge temp hp and care free gameplay.it does not require any special gear either: they go full crit/power.Recovery they have it for free with echoes of light,aura of wisdom and Justice final feat.
It is amazing that OP has reached the status of N1 tank in NW with out any buff,from the days of the OP community bitching in the late mod9.It just shows how incompetent at using their full buff potential,most of them were at that time.
And the number of GFs that was posted that run ToNG is highly deceptive:They are the same and same Gf over and over again that play the speedbot amongside an OP.These are Gfs that have accepted their secondary role and run with friends and zerg channels.Most of the Gfs will barely see the toNg at all.
Edit: It is painfull to see Gfs in elite channels posting for an hour "17k Gf loking for ToNG".How we have come to this
Pally’s have a cruise control style of tanking that we just can’t hold a candle to. For this reason I prefer dps and dps/hybrid and most assuredly prefer doing the hardest content with 2 dc’s a pally and a random dps.
At the end of the day it is about group composition more than your GF build versus the next guy’s build. Everyone has figured out that the pally can out tank us, but we can out dps most anyone in single target damage. And that is why we as a group will defend our ability to do dps from the trolls who visit this page. It’s all we have left that really/truly stands out as part of a winning combination.
If they ever fix our feats, powers and class features then maybe we can compete with pallys in pure tanking and buffing. Fixes have been hashed out amongst us on more than one occasion in the past. I keep my fingers crossed.
(Only place more enjoyable is last part of SP, where you do a full pull and you get zerg rushed).
Tomb as a solotank isn't unwinnable, but you definitely need to predict your moves in advance. The one thing I hated about the older boss designs is that you could basically just post up in front of the boss, hold shield, cast ITF and ET, and manage stamina. You never really had to worry about where you were pointing your shield since there was only one angle of attack.
On the Souls, I'm actually somewhat glad that pointing your shield in the right direction is needed, it keeps me on my toes. Though, it is actually possible to keep an angle which allows you to shield the boss and face the souls.
You'll always need to lower your shield to use CS, which was always a risk. OPs have it easier tanking, sure, but if your Tactician or Protector can't solotank with double DCs and a Templock...
I am at a loss for words, especially when you don't even need FR with the Templock. Why are the DPS standing shoulder to shoulder with you?
If your DPS refuses to move, then move yourself.
You can actually stand with your back to the ledge, but you'll need careful positioning to do it. Impossible in the tanking department, so as long as Paladin is unchanged.
No GF, no matter how good you are, can facetank Call of Winter. Tankadin can.
Note that I don't advocate for nerfing any classes, and definitely not for nerfing the other useful tank class in the game, because tanks are harder to come by when compared to the number of DPS classes.
For buffing, idk, maybe we could have a weakened version of prepatch ITF placed in the Tactician tree. A Tactician feat (or capstone) wherein 50% of your nonbuffed Damage Resistance Score or something (if we included buffed damage resistance, Shepherd's Devotion would basically turn that feat into prepatch ITF, and we ideally want to avoid a re-run of that situation).
A large issue with GF in terms of buffing is that none of our buffs scale with gear (technically, if you look at Martial Mastery, GF buffs get worse with gear). But I'd rather not ask for a GF rework when there are two classes which desperately need a rework.
We did not said the ToNG as a GF solo tank is unwinnable.
We said it demands a lot more effort.
For your advice about souls etc ,we agree,what I said is that is a phase when a teamamte of yours scew up( DC with back on Ra nSi =90% of the cases ,and takes an IBS) ,Gf can get in trouble.
You talk about risk...what risk has an OP in that phase.NONE.
As about your loss of words ,not all people have same latency,gear or gaming hardware.Maybe other factors were at play there.
ex: incompetent DCs that were casting same powers,DPS that was pvp specced,etc.
As about the DPS-group-buffers standing next to me,this happened in all my runs with different people.People dont know classes ,are lazy,think a Gf is as an OP.He cannot die.
So they dont pay attention where they are.
As for repositioning I do that all the time.But as people surround Ra nSi ,sometimes I have nowhere to go. :P Usually the CW ,or most common the dc ,will come toe to toe with me and get the IBS.
As about standing with back on the ledge I think this is realy a bad advice:Cause sometimes the Ghost-Azekerak Acererek or somethinh like that :P :P does not show up at all or laugh ,just pulls :P .This happens in laggy instances ,most of the times in the first pull-trample mechanism.So to minimize the danger of happening you need to be between center and edge.
---------------------
As for Paladins...
You know in some arguments some people exaggerate so to throw their mental opponents off balance.The next thing I am going to say ,seems like that:but is not.I fully mean it.
There is no salvation for fixing the prot Op,nothing can be done.The fundamentals that this class was built,were all wrong and broken.Class cannot be fixed now.Maybe one two months after release.Now it is too late.
A defender class that tanks through offense.Period stop.
Only solution is devs to adjust content to it,meaning to add dazes/stuns to the final bosses.
I am strogly against any additional buff as utility/group ,to the Gf.it will not help,it will cripple us even more.We will be sentenced for ever to be the weak siblings of Prot Op and to be invited as speedbots.
As for any discussion about class rework,if that discussio opens,with the hate going on,we will lose the battle and Gf will be nerfed.We dont need that or to gain the broken status of prot OP.
Only solution is the devs to make content that does not favour the OP.
Sorry for the wall of text.
Conqueror GF:
Gets owned by OP at anything that is not personal dps.
Protector GF:
Gets owned by OP at anything that is not party protection.
Tactician GF:
Gets owned by OP at anything that is not buffing party damage. Only DC should buff a bit more.
Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock.
> Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock.
>
> It begs the question if perhaps the paladin is the class that needs rework. The first obvious problem, as has been mentioned countless times, is the fact that it never has to worry about being flanked, if a class has such a big advantage one would think that it needs to be traded off with some other big shortcoming, right now I don't see any.
You see, the problem there is that that great perfomance comes from mostly 1 tree (Justice) and 1 feat, Aura Gifts (Light), simply put, paladin is the Great Weapon Fighter of the tanks, they do great if they build with the one option they have and underperform horribly if they deviate from that, no pure/mostly Bulwark/Light built paladin could come remotely close to the perfomance of a Justice one.
As GF has 3 usable trees, the 2 inferior ones (protector and tac) simply need a substantial buff to what they're (suboptimally) specialised at which is protecting (prot) and buffing (tac)
As a random example, prot could mitigate damage far more than it does now (mitigating enemy damage down to laughable levels, even Ras Hni would hit like a wet noodle), the capstone also could passively grant 10% - 30% lifesteal and/or deflection chance to allies standing nearby the GF and tac could buff much more than it does as it does now (so ITF could go up to 60% -
73% damage buff), commander's strike could be buffed up to 60% or 75% (up from 40%) damage bonus as an extra hit off an ally encounter and the capstone could passively grant a good 7% - 10% ap every 3 seconds and 10% - 30% movement speed bonus to allies standing nearby the GF and there you have it, conqueror much better at dpsing, prot at mitigating damage and tac at buffing. Each path would be great at one thing but would be average to bad at the rest, much like conq GF is squishy like wet toilet paper and prot/tac gf has hardcore low personal dps so, in that sense, OP would be more versatille and overall better but, when comparing to 1 thing (personal dps, protecting or buffing) it would be outperformed by GF by quite a lot as that would be what the guardian specialised for.
GF has the option to be an specialist though prot and tac are underperforming specs that need serious buffs.
OP has the option to be great with 1 build but deviating from that comes with a huge perfomance drop.
> Like @rjc9000 stated though, there are classes that need a rework more than GF (tac and protector) do and those are SW and TR especially the poor warlock.
>
> It begs the question if perhaps the paladin is the class that needs rework. The first obvious problem, as has been mentioned countless times, is the fact that it never has to worry about being flanked, if a class has such a big advantage one would think that it needs to be traded off with some other big shortcoming, right now I don't see any.
When I started playing this game NO ONE wanted paladin tanks. It was post bubble nerf and the prime era of immortal DPS GF's with AA shields.
We have managed to remake our builds after two substantial nerfs (bubble and BO) and we are finally sought after again. GF's are also desirable, mostly in the form of DPS GF's but also buffers. Many would argue the 2DC, 1 OP, 1GF, 1 DPS group is the best for T9G. Some would argue 2DC, 1OP, and 2 GF are even better. So I am not interested in GF's crying about another OP nerf just because they don't get to play GF the way they want. OP has exactly one viable path also, that being the Justice path. It can be argued that most DPS classes are obsolete in the current meta so ain't no one got time for GF sob stories. Leave the OP alone.
You and I posted at similar time, edited at similar time and more or less said the same xD The GF emo thing was uncalled for though.
"prime era of immortal DPS GF's with AA shields."
This is an argument or what?
An OP should not talk about "immortality".Prot path is broken from day one ,since you "tank",defend through offense...
A Gf has to invest in DR and recovery in order to defend ,"to tank".You ,I mean the Op community completely ignores these two stats.And tanks through offense.
---------------
To the essense of the thread:
We do not want,ehm,I do not want your class "nerfed". There is no salvation,with out rage quitting and game to be in trouble.
It is not coinsidense that when someone wants to make a Defender in NW ,choses an OP.It is far easier.
Having said that,you are noumerous now,the "GWF of tanks".And as the GWF ,you are spoiled as community and learned the easy way.Only to ask nerfs for other classes.("Gf has too many self buffs")
So no nerf for Ops ,at least from me o/
GF's are in a fine place. They can arguably take two spots in a BiS end game group. I am sorry you only have one viable end game path, join the club. Considering how little love TRs, CWs and even SWs get in T9G I think it is silly, of all classes, for GFs to be upset about the current meta. The fastestT9G run I have seen, 13 minutes, was a two GF run.
> thrill:
>
> "prime era of immortal DPS GF's with AA shields."
>
> This is an argument or what?
>
> An OP should not talk about "immortality".Prot path is broken from day one ,since you "tank",defend through offense...
>
> A Gf has to invest in DR and recovery in order to defend ,"to tank".You ,I mean the Op community completely ignores these two stats.And tanks through offense.
>
>
> ---------------
>
> To the essense of the thread:
> We do not want,ehm,I do not want your class "nerfed". There is no salvation,with out rage quitting and game to be in trouble.
> It is not coinsidense
What my comment meant was that before the AA nerf DPS GFs were able to "tank" and no one wanted OPs at all. People essentially ran with no tank. We may be immortal but we do nowhere near the damage that the immortal DPS GF did. I have heard of 65 million crits on a DPS GF. I am lucky to hit 1/10th of that in a single blow.
I feel no sympathy for a class that can still fill 40% of the slots on an end game group. You are one of the most powerful classes in the game. The OP has reclaimed a place in the game and GFs are doing fine. If the developers drop the nerf hammer on the DPS GF then we can start talking about balancing GFs and OPs.
12.5
Yes most end game groups want a pally and two DC's, but they often also want AT LEAST one GF, sometimes two.
This is what happens if you are too much polite,as I was.
Two broken OPs come to your forums and start trolling and complaining saying BS most of the time and throwing poison.
Pretty sure ,if I was in the temple/library-whatever the name of their subforum- and started saying the same BS,I would be called "troll"
My mistake I shouldn't have edited my last post,trying -in vain- to avoid throwing fuel to the fire.I should have been my true self
Thrill ..."I feel no sympathy for a class".Yeah mate? I dont feel any sympathy for your community ,since most of you are incompetent.Every time I see an OP video I yawn.
Predevallant:
Posting one video proves nothing ,any toon that takes the position of a Striker in a well coordianted party will do too much damage.And this run is not legit.
The greatest the pool you take from similar results ,the more common you are in the truth.And this in PC,is that the striker position is taken by GWFs.For xbox,i dont know ,nor do I care,since gameplay ability wise PC>Xbox.
You are always one mod late in builds,meta and effieciency.
And news for you...the fastest run in PC was 12 mins.And the DPS was not Gf or GWF......Dont ask for video ,it does not exist for the reason that the class in question is due to receive a buff.So it kinda remains some kind of secret.
C ya o/
I also have a 12k GF so this is my forum just as much as it is yours. Just love the hypocrisy of the most over powered class in the game crying about pally's getting one spot in a T9G group.
I frequently watch a 15k buff tank GF on twitch who runs all kinds of T9G groups. Single cleric, healadins, no pally at all, etc. His runs aren't always perfect but he gets it done and he even takes the orbs because he thinks it is fun. If you can't tank T9G with a GF then maybe it is a YOU problem.
This is how a post that would otherwise be quite helpful for those who need the advice.....turns into something on the verge of being deleted by a dev/moderator type person. And then the helpful hints and good info get lost. Not cool.
Now I need to deal third of the damage(250kk-300kk), after which BD with 300% debuff finishes the Orcus.
Debuffs should not work for a bloody death, it needs to be fixed
GF is soooo inferior in everything vs OP in terms of tanking, powerbuff, Aura of courage deals crazy ammount for GWF, CW, TR, GF 15-20%, encounetr reset , HP boost, autoaggro, up to 7 mio temp HP in buffer groups (someone told me, it´s like that..)
Sry but with 7 mio temp HP you simply can do the dishes and come back later
Running random you have much more issues to get things done, 2-3 out of 5 player normally can´t do the job as they should, no blame, but that´s simply the average setup.
Atm there seems to be less "capable" player online, maybe they are done and wait for double enchant week.
The best results I get by far is by running my own DC, simlpy because I can buff the group, and run the needed stuff to do so.
I gave up on my warlock (near dead), except I decided to abuse bugs, but that will only hurt the class even more.
That speedrun looks broken somehow, but maybe just 5x good player (if that´s the result, gj), no bugs involved?
You can see in the video everyone is using pretty much every debuff they can, OP using bronzewood? 1 DC using dread, another using pf, hr using debuff artifact (he should have used dread and not fey as well probably, since hes basically a support here) and he is using thorn ward, commanding shot+lss. All they are doing is stacking every buff and debuff they can and then having 1 player do dps. 1 mistake they do make imo is the dps are not using debuff pets, since the debuff applies twice at the boss. For a faster kill, 100% they should both use a debuff pet.
> Thx for the answers. Maybe I am confused but what debuffs an archon, except buffing your dps?
Archons (fire, air) are only personal DPS buffs , correct?
Sellsword trio, dancing shield and conartist seem to be more useful for whole-party DPS boost.
In a boss fight like Ras Nisi, I should think the latter would be more optimal... if they don't get tipped over the ledge!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
OP just lols through the entire fight.
I know what the issue is; the boss seems to do a DoT and it literally ate my HP away rather quickly. Prior to jumping into the last boss our time in the dungeon was a bit under 20 minutes, which is almost the same with the OP I run with.
I need to figure out how not to die on the last boss. I tried Steel Defense and that did not work. Anyone have any pointers for the last boss.
His average DoT hit was around 80K with over 90% DR and my shield up. Ugh....
Just my (limited) experience so far, others may have better suggestions.
ac dc has resist ignore -85%?
paladin has the same damage as a regular damage dealer ?
do perhaps some good damage?
and the rest two use archons where is the issue?
As for needing a META group to complete T9 is garbage. You just need communication and understanding of mechanics.