Rebalancing Classes and fixing Game Modes, Here is a Solution to One of the Biggest Roadblocks

trgluestickz

@rgutscheradev

I have a proposal that would go a long way towards solving balance issues in both PVP and PVE. I highy recommend sticking this on your priority list for helping PVP and PVE alike.

The Problem:
For most powers in this game right now, they work the same in PVP as they do in PVE. Only a tiny handful of powers make any effort at all to establish seperate effects for PVP and PVE.
This has created a situation where the devs are forced to bend over backwards, often unsucessfully, to find ways accomodate both gameplay types and it makes fixing things for either side much harder. The needs of PVE and PVP players are frequently at odds with eachother because adjusting a power for one gameplay type often ends up messing it up for the other gameplay type.
This issue dramatically reduces build variaty by rendering large numbers of powers weakened or useless in one or both gameplay types.
It leaves PVEers and PVPers alike at eachother's throats squabbling over the same mangled toys.
And the very worst issue steming from this, is that it makes rebalancing/reworking classes and game modes needlessly more difficult and complicated than it should be. I cannot imagine the amount of blood, sweat, tears, and resources that have been wasted on unsucessful/mediocre rebalancing efforts over the years because of this issue.
The needs of PVE vs the needs of PVP always hog tie eachother and everyone suffers because of it.

The Solution:
As mentioned above, some powers have seperate effects in PVP than they do in PVE. The best case scenario would be the devs expanding this seperation to all powers in the game. They should split each power, feat, and possibly other things into 2 versions, one for PVP and one for PVE. This will make it so the devs can adjust a power for X gameplay type without changing that power for Y gameplay type.
That does not mean every single power needs to have different effects in PVP but there should still be a seperate copy of all powers in existance as a precaution.
Some of them are currently fine but could become a problem in the future if they are ever buffed/reworked or if a new build is invented that finds a way to make a power too strong.
This may take a lot of effort on Cryptic's part to implement up front but I cannot stress how worth it it would be for both company and player. This issue is a leech on everyone's time and resources that needs to be ripped off!

pitshade

This has been requested since Beta. Hopefully, some day it will be implemented. The lack of this design feature is what IMO has led to the woes faced by TRs in PVE since mod zero as power after power, and ultimately stealth itself, got nerfed.

hawkeyel

trgluestickz said:

@rgutscheradev

I have a proposal that would go a long way towards solving balance issues in both PVP and PVE. I highy recommend sticking this on your priority list for helping PVP and PVE alike.

The Problem:
For most powers in this game right now, they work the same in PVP as they do in PVE. Only a tiny handful of powers make any effort at all to establish seperate effects for PVP and PVE.
This has created a situation where the devs are forced to bend over backwards, often unsucessfully, to find ways accomodate both gameplay types and it makes fixing things for either side much harder. The needs of PVE and PVP players are frequently at odds with eachother because adjusting a power for one gameplay type often ends up messing it up for the other gameplay type.
This issue dramatically reduces build variaty by rendering large numbers of powers weakened or useless in one or both gameplay types.
It leaves PVEers and PVPers alike at eachother's throats squabbling over the same mangled toys.
And the very worst issue steming from this, is that it makes rebalancing/reworking classes and game modes needlessly more difficult and complicated than it should be. I cannot imagine the amount of blood, sweat, tears, and resources that have been wasted on unsucessful/mediocre rebalancing efforts over the years because of this issue.
The needs of PVE vs the needs of PVP always hog tie eachother and everyone suffers because of it.

The Solution:
As mentioned above, some powers have seperate effects in PVP than they do in PVE. The best case scenario would be the devs expanding this seperation to all powers in the game. They should split each power, feat, and possibly other things into 2 versions, one for PVP and one for PVE. This will make it so the devs can adjust a power for X gameplay type without changing that power for Y gameplay type.
That does not mean every single power needs to have different effects in PVP but there should still be a seperate copy of all powers in existance as a precaution.
Some of them are currently fine but could become a problem in the future if they are ever buffed/reworked or if a new build is invented that finds a way to make a power too strong.
This may take a lot of effort on Cryptic's part to implement up front but I cannot stress how worth it it would be for both company and player. This issue is a leech on everyone's time and resources that needs to be ripped off!

+1000

hadestemplar

@trgluestickz,

You propose separated pve from pvp. which is already separated by tenacity and difference in gamestyle and values.
In pve not much arp u need. while in pvp is one of major factors.
In pve u don't need tenacity, while in pvp without that u will not last long.

Now lets say happens miracle and devs create two modes for each class powers.
Mode 1 = pve
Mode 2 = pvp,

In domination pvp case its OK.
But in GvsG, or open world pvp? Have u though about them?

In field u face both NPC and player from other faction. System will get confused how to behave. Should power x work in mode 1 or in mode 2.. eventually leading problems with current game boons<

But its not ends here, DC, HR, TR have two modes already. DC have divine mode, HR switching between melee/close range and ranged mode. TR between normal and stealth.
Means these guys will had 4 modes per power. And thats lead to lot of problems.

So far I understand that devs want to get rind tenacity,, first step arp fix and Arp resist removing from tenacity.
Thats mean developers want to combine powers, so they all would behave in same way, either in pve and pvp.

trgluestickz

bloodyspamer said:

@trgluestickz,

You propose separated pve from pvp. which is already separated by tenacity and difference in gamestyle and values.
In pve not much arp u need. while in pvp is one of major factors.
In pve u don't need tenacity, while in pvp without that u will not last long.

Now lets say happens miracle and devs create two modes for each class powers.
Mode 1 = pve
Mode 2 = pvp,

In domination pvp case its OK.
But in GvsG, or open world pvp? Have u though about them?

In field u face both NPC and player from other faction. System will get confused how to behave. Should power x work in mode 1 or in mode 2.. eventually leading problems with current game boons<

But its not ends here, DC, HR, TR have two modes already. DC have divine mode, HR switching between melee/close range and ranged mode. TR between normal and stealth.
Means these guys will had 4 modes per power. And thats lead to lot of problems.

So far I understand that devs want to get rind tenacity,, first step arp fix and Arp resist removing from tenacity.
Thats mean developers want to combine powers, so they all would behave in same way, either in pve and pvp.

I do think steps should be taken to make it so PVE builds can be used in PVP.
For example, changing critical strike resistance to critical severity resistance so crit is good in both PVE and PVP without being too strong in PVP.
Another gate that needs to be brought down is tenacity on gear, it should moved to your character sheet.
However, I don't think 100% of things should remain the same for both gameplay types, there are situations when seperating PVE from PVP makes sense.
Creating a seperate copy of powers and feats for PVP and PVE would be a huge step fowards.
I am not too worried about seperating feats and powers for PVE and PVP since that is one thing that loadouts can be used for.
What loadouts do not work for right now is stats/enchantments so things keeping you from using the same stats/enchantments for both PVE and PVP do need to be taken down.

As for the point you brought up about 4 modes per power, I think it will take more work than a single mode class but I think its doable.

Your point about mobs in guantlgrym is a good point to bring up, I hadn't thought of this.
I am not a programmer so I can't say for sure how one would do this but it might be possible to tie the power modes to the PVP maps themselves so as long as you are on those maps, your powers are on PVP mode and it doesn't matter what kind of foe you are fighting.
Sort of like how PVP boons work only when you are in PVP and how sahaa powers only work in the sahaa match zone.

pitshade

Many control powers are already listed as having different effects vs. players than mobs. The coding already exists. It just needs to be expanded to damage numbers as well.

mamalion1234

For example this adjusted for pvp to be resistable and half effective.. Maybe now can change since the piercing is mitigated from tenacity or completely remove that secondary rule for pvp.

hadestemplar

pitshade said:

Many control powers are already listed as having different effects vs. players than mobs. The coding already exists. It just needs to be expanded to damage numbers as well.

Weapon enchantments also have 2 mods within it's debuffs.

Your Encounter powers strike with an additional 75% Critical Severity. Your attacks cause dread in your target for 4 seconds, dealing 50% of weapon damage as Necrotic damage every second and reducing their Defense by 40% for players and decreasing their Damage Resistance by 4% for monsters. Additionally, your Critical Strikes now reduce your now reduce your targets Damage Resistance by 4% for 4 seconds. This effect can trigger every 5 seconds.

Due that in pvp to have DR is nonsense.. because WE cut it almost by half.. So better stay with higher HP pool.

Also, this stuff, with CC elements you mentioning existing for long time. But as you can see, problem haven't become better.
I don't mind if devs would go as @trgluestickz, suggest.. But it will not solve problem.

The real problem, is not players encounters, class features,, daily powers. But players stats< This is core of problem both for pve and pvp.

Sure you would not agree for this my claims. But hear me out why I say so.


In old neverwinter online (prior mod 6), players in generally had low stats, majority of players in pve had 9k or 10k power.
To reach 16k was consider high power.. And no one where able hit 20k power at all. Or maybe one or two players in total..

In pvp case, in past you had also low stats, so there where lower gap between players, and thus where more balanced pvp.
Instead relaying on stats/ gear and buffs only. Players relayed on creativity how utilize ground around him, used dodge almost in every moment.

In past you want have high dmg, Ok< You go to pvp with lets say 9k power,, but due lower ArP/RI your dmg will got adjusted due other players DR values..
In order penetrate that players def stats, you boost up ArP/RI, but by doing it, you lose some of Power..
So even if u penetrate targets Def, your dmg will not deal gazilion dmg due lower power...

Same goes with defensive values, With gear and etc u get one value, with Stronghold boon picking other values.


TR in past had lower base dmg, but due that stealth provide CA which boost up dmg. < Also TR where not class for face2face combat. So it's gameplay where, hit.>run>hit>run. Annoying, but effective..

GWF, lacking dodge mechanic, but having high dps with at wills and other powers.. Higher than normal defensive stats.
It's ment to brawl by going head2head fight.. Danger in close range. And only tank type builds where able go head2head fights with GWF.

GF > high defensive stats, low/mod offensive stats... You could boost up dmg, but trying get high dmg with gear, usually ended up lower defensive stats... <

HR, similar to TR, Hit and run class.

CW lot of CC, but lower dmg in general.<
SW high raw dmg but lacked CC,

So as you can see thats what it where in past.

To counter GWF With SW I usually stayed in mid range, dealing dmg.
To counter with GF, well even if it knocked me down, due lower dmg I could escape from him and hit from range..

Now, GWF dash to group 1 or 2 hits. >>GG< and complain that they are weak..
GF negate dmg from range,, and dealing tons of dmg in close range.. <<

Even in old mod 5, when TR still where called OP, I had no problem to brawl with 3 of them in same moment with my furry SW. < because knew, that if TR would make mistake, for him it would be last mistake< and I would deal with him with couple hits...

The pvp where action based..

Now pvp is gear demonstration,...

So how templock fight in pvp against GF.. Tryed to overpower each other Hp restoring factors...

hawkeyel

bloodyspamer said:

pitshade said:

Many control powers are already listed as having different effects vs. players than mobs. The coding already exists. It just needs to be expanded to damage numbers as well.

Weapon enchantments also have 2 mods within it's debuffs.

Your Encounter powers strike with an additional 75% Critical Severity. Your attacks cause dread in your target for 4 seconds, dealing 50% of weapon damage as Necrotic damage every second and reducing their Defense by 40% for players and decreasing their Damage Resistance by 4% for monsters. Additionally, your Critical Strikes now reduce your now reduce your targets Damage Resistance by 4% for 4 seconds. This effect can trigger every 5 seconds.

Due that in pvp to have DR is nonsense.. because WE cut it almost by half.. So better stay with higher HP pool.

Also, this stuff, with CC elements you mentioning existing for long time. But as you can see, problem haven't become better.
I don't mind if devs would go as @trgluestickz, suggest.. But it will not solve problem.

The real problem, is not players encounters, class features,, daily powers. But players stats< This is core of problem both for pve and pvp.

Sure you would not agree for this my claims. But hear me out why I say so.


In old neverwinter online (prior mod 6), players in generally had low stats, majority of players in pve had 9k or 10k power.
To reach 16k was consider high power.. And no one where able hit 20k power at all. Or maybe one or two players in total..

In pvp case, in past you had also low stats, so there where lower gap between players, and thus where more balanced pvp.
Instead relaying on stats/ gear and buffs only. Players relayed on creativity how utilize ground around him, used dodge almost in every moment.

In past you want have high dmg, Ok< You go to pvp with lets say 9k power,, but due lower ArP/RI your dmg will got adjusted due other players DR values..
In order penetrate that players def stats, you boost up ArP/RI, but by doing it, you lose some of Power..
So even if u penetrate targets Def, your dmg will not deal gazilion dmg due lower power...

Same goes with defensive values, With gear and etc u get one value, with Stronghold boon picking other values.


TR in past had lower base dmg, but due that stealth provide CA which boost up dmg. < Also TR where not class for face2face combat. So it's gameplay where, hit.>run>hit>run. Annoying, but effective..

GWF, lacking dodge mechanic, but having high dps with at wills and other powers.. Higher than normal defensive stats.
It's ment to brawl by going head2head fight.. Danger in close range. And only tank type builds where able go head2head fights with GWF.

GF > high defensive stats, low/mod offensive stats... You could boost up dmg, but trying get high dmg with gear, usually ended up lower defensive stats... <

HR, similar to TR, Hit and run class.

CW lot of CC, but lower dmg in general.<
SW high raw dmg but lacked CC,

So as you can see thats what it where in past.

To counter GWF With SW I usually stayed in mid range, dealing dmg.
To counter with GF, well even if it knocked me down, due lower dmg I could escape from him and hit from range..

Now, GWF dash to group 1 or 2 hits. >>GG< and complain that they are weak..
GF negate dmg from range,, and dealing tons of dmg in close range.. <<

Even in old mod 5, when TR still where called OP, I had no problem to brawl with 3 of them in same moment with my furry SW. < because knew, that if TR would make mistake, for him it would be last mistake< and I would deal with him with couple hits...

The pvp where action based..

Now pvp is gear demonstration,...

So how templock fight in pvp against GF.. Tryed to overpower each other Hp restoring factors... </p>

So are you for putting skill caps and deminished returns back into the game like before Mod 6 to help control the power creep ect. or do you have another idea ??

trentbail21

Classes that are meant to be offensive should have diminishing returns for their defensive stats and classes that are defensive should have diminishing returns for offensive stats. This way if you decided to try and pervert your class into something its not you would undoubtedly be less effective overall.

For example:
GF's power and armor pen should have diminishing returns so if you wanted to stack them sky high at a certain point you would be seriously hurting your defensive stats..

GWF's defense and deflect should having diminishing returns so if you decided to try and have super high defensive stats you would kill your offensive capabilities even more then they do now.

I think you can see where I am going with this.. I think it makes a whole lot of sense.. yes you could still pervert your class to make it what its technically not what its supposed to be but at even more of a cost.

rustlord

Not that it won't work, but it's way easier said than done. Diminishing returns work on numbers, so for the portion of powers that are number-based, need to further classify those as defensive, offensive (or support) which some are in the grey area. Certain stats are also on the grey area of offense or defense. Examples,

1. High recovery on a TR with ITC. Recovery is neither exclusively offense nor defense. ITC gives automatic deflect so then adding diminish to 100% free deflect makes it "not.. automatic" I guess? So that's a touchy subject.
2. AP gain, same thing. Dailies could be offense, defense or healing.
3. Wilds Med on HR, how will you add diminishing return to self healing on a numeric scale? Could be simpler to tone done fixed base numbers
4. CW Shield. That's on its own layer DR and is almost always non-stackable, meaning systemically, Negation + Shield + other layers have their own layers. Technically, they don't stack, they're laid out in rows. So that needs a huge software overhaul.
5. GF damage comes mostly from self buffs. So buffs are not stats either.

Diminishing returns is a great idea to get rid of gear gap but it's not an end-all solution for class balance too.

Edit: I drafted some thoughts that I think improves upon this idea, but works more globally https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233045/pvp-diminishing-expendable-resource-suggestion

trentbail21 said:

Classes that are meant to be offensive should have diminishing returns for their defensive stats and classes that are defensive should have diminishing returns for offensive stats. This way if you decided to try and pervert your class into something its not you would undoubtedly be less effective overall.

For example:
GF's power and armor pen should have diminishing returns so if you wanted to stack them sky high at a certain point you would be seriously hurting your defensive stats..

GWF's defense and deflect should having diminishing returns so if you decided to try and have super high defensive stats you would kill your offensive capabilities even more then they do now.

I think you can see where I am going with this.. I think it makes a whole lot of sense.. yes you could still pervert your class to make it what its technically not what its supposed to be but at even more of a cost.

hadestemplar

hawkeyel said:

So are you for putting skill caps and deminished returns back into the game like before Mod 6 to help control the power creep ect. or do you have another idea ??

Maybe... Just to say, if we want to fix problem, need to fix for real. Not just doing cosmetic changes...

But before that, need to check how base/stock classes perform within pvp. Thats mean,
-no artifact sets effects(valindra, orcus, valhalla, etc)
- no artifact weapons dmg stacking (prefered, but not requirement.)
- no campaign provided boons
- no insignias provided stats and insignias bonus effects
- no stronghold boons.
- adjusted Weapon enchantments> example Pure/transcendent dread enchantments have ability to shred 40% DR for player...


Then after 2 months or more.. Evaluate how each classes/builds performed,, and compare with data from full/normal domination pvp fights, we could:

- balance class on base/stock form
- investigate, and if need adjust boons, insignias, insignias combo, mounts, SH boons and etc effectivness within pvp.
- by doing this way,, it would be over all class balancing, not just pvp but pve too. even if boon would be insane powerfull in pve,, it would not crash pvp balance.


So would say, such way is nonsense. But, actually its show a alot.

Now, in past, daily power where consider as class ultimate power, and you where unable spam them so every ~38s
And AP regeneration speed could be increased only by couple ways.
- special mount
- class artifact(DC artifact)
- having higher recovery

Now, with recovery is interesting thing.
IF you boost up it, your AP will be restored faster + etc. But to do so, you had to fill up offensive slots within gear with silver enchantment instead azure(Power).
So even if u rise up AP restoration speed, your power itself are lower.. So dmg never went too high.

same goes with ArP and power relationship. If u boosted up power, you give up arp, and opposite.
Same with defence/deflect and life steal. < even if u have high LS, you will had lower DEf, means each hit could be dealy.. But also if u have high Def, and having low LS means u will not be able stand against large group solo.. Thus making healers viable within groups once again. <

Some of you would ask me, why I mentioning them..
well, because, try to accumulate 10k def with gear and have 5k+ life steal.. It's become hard, not mentioned to do so, you will had to pick certain gear peaces,, and thats mean giving up some of dmg< Thats mean, once again, dmg never flew out of roof,. Thats good for pve and pvp.



Also for pvp need change Tenacity.. staff reworked and removed ArP/RI resist from tenacity.. Good job.. However its far from great
However it still do provide 2 values.. DR/Deflect and CC immunity.

The fixing way would be:
- remove current tenacity within gear
- add 20% base CC immunity value for all classes( 20% value is example, real ones, would be depending on class, melee maybe higher, ranged maybe lower).
- add that each gear peace have specific resist effect within pvp,, example, Boots have extra 500 DR resist within pvp. or Glovers 400 CC immunity boost, or helm 500 Dmg boost within pvp... Thats would lead more freedom to customize own gear, depending on gameplay, role within groups, and own desires...

It would bring pvp back to players vs player, rather gear/buff demonstration show... Gear would be slightly different, also dmg would never went to high.. Thus reducing gap between all classes without needing rebalance class with every new mod...

Anyways,, this is just my opinion and ideas..

p.s edited: :P