"I just thought they needed to be fun and work well together.
What classes in an MMORPG need are specific things that only that they can do, or do well, so that they will be desired for certain activities or for accomplishing certain goals in an easier or more effective way. Different dungeons, skirmishes, and pvp scenarios could even be designed so that you would want to bring along one of a particular class in your party.
If you want class balance in a game, trying to make it so that any class can beat another class (of equal level, IL, or whatever) one-on-one is not the way to go about it. It's totally unrealistic anyway."
Ah, if only that were true.
Your central theme, (classes are specialists not equals) , is actually a reasonable argument ... in content that REQUIRES specialists.
NWO is too far gone for that.
For example, If traps in NWO actually killed, caused meaningful injuries, could not be ignored by VIP and could not be easily avoided, then TRs would be desired in all content for their special skills.
The same could be said about healing (DCs), crowd control (CW)... etc.
NWO "content" requires little or no specialization.
Every class can heal themselves with lifesteal.
Traps don't matter.
Stealth doesn't matter.
Teamwork BARELY matters.
All that matters is mooaaar DPS (directly or indirectly).
To be desired or even tolerated in NWO "content" you are either a Paingiver or buff the Paingivers.
Such insipid "content" perpetuates this despicable culture of DPS competition, hence the constant whining "whaaah, a GF got more DPS then me! Nerf!"
Not saying you are wrong: content requiring the unique skills of a healer, tank, Rogue and DPS would indeed be fun.
Just saying... that ship has sailed.
Even if such a dungeon were released with mod 12, this "community" is so toxic, full of nerf trolls and DPS minded, a "specialist requirement" would be considered a nerf to DPS classes.
I understand what you're saying. The thing is, I actually tried my hand at being a dungeon master many moons ago. The most important thing I learned about making adventures and dungeons is this: if a DM wants his or her players to have fun, he or she needs to design an adventure/dungeon so that each of their skills and abilities are required at some point, giving them all a chance to shine. That's how Dungeons & Dragons should work. Of course, in pencil-and-paper D&D, player-character choices also actually matter and can effect the world around them. They can even change the world. I believe I know how to make an MMORPG that would actually allow for that sort of thing, but I won't go into that here.
The only reason I post here is because I started playing this again a month or two ago, just because it's the only MMORPG I've encountered that has enjoyable combat. It has potential to be so much better, if certain things were implemented. Seems like it would become a lot more popular and profitable too. If Cryptic actually offered players something different besides good action combat.
I never read anywhere in the Holy Book of How-to-Make MMORPGs that classes need to be balanced. I just thought they needed to be fun and work well together.
What classes in an MMORPG need are specific things that only that they can do, or do well, so that they will be desired for certain activities or for accomplishing certain goals in an easier or more effective way. Different dungeons, skirmishes, and pvp scenarios could even be designed so that you would want to bring along one of a particular class in your party.
Fighters fight, that's what they train for, so it makes sense that they are better at combat. But there are things they can't do as well as priests, rogues, or mages. Or things they can't do at all that the other classes can do.
If you want class balance in a game, trying to make it so that any class can beat another class (of equal level, IL, or whatever) one-on-one is not the way to go about it. It's totally unrealistic anyway.
i lost you at "i thought" ... thats really debatable
frankly, this games slow slate of actual playable content, is the reason this is always a issue.. most other mmos reset every year with new content and new level caps.
you play to new level cap.. get geared, probably do that wiht a few alts.. or spend time in pvp.. then you redo it the next year.
this game decided not really to do that.. or tried it once.. but implemented it pretty poorly and blam.. every mod we get more power.. and all they do is try to slow people down with really boring grind.. adding alot of it recently.. no player ever said.. boy wish we had 15 more hours of trinket grinding this mod.
I for one just take neverwinter for what it is now.. i dont expect it to be anything else.. you guys can continue to do so.. but they do not have the time or the resources to do anything but what they are doing..
if I was part of the problem, when i asked for more harder content.. then shame on me.. because all we mostly got was tons of grinding and it drove away hundreds of players from the game..
New content and new level caps mean nothing when it's really all just grinding. I have two level high (once max) level characters on another game I've haven't touched in years. Well, I did actually log-in to it once last year, but I was like, ugh. No thanks.
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
I think we should care about games like GW and WoW since they dominated the MMO genre for decades
And still managed to maintain a fair balance between pvp and PVE
They can def use other games to figure out why the balance is so out of whack here...
Any up and coming business will use a successful enterprise as framework or model for their own
It just makes business sense
This
I never played the first Guild Wars, so I can't really can't comment on that. However, I got bored of Guild Wars 2 by levels 10-12. Been there, done that. World of Warcrap hasn't been good since the Vanilla days. It actually borrowed, I mean stole, a lot of stuff from Everquest. Ideas that weren't really all that great in the first place. Blizzard just did it better with better graphics than EQ1. Plus, the early 2000's was when a larger percentage of the population of the world starting getting internet access. They just happened to have the right game at the right time. But I don't think you could even pay me to play WoW right now. It's so boring.
Guild Wars 1 did a much better job of class balancing. Melee classes up front with higher survivability, casters at the back did higher damage but needed the melee classes to guard them from enemies.
E.g. an Elementalist (CW) would target a meteor shower on a group of enemies who would then come running at the caster but the Warriors would block their path and engage them in direct combat. Two healers (one prot, one heal) would make sure everyone stayed on their feet.
Rangers could set multiple traps on the floor in anticipation of the rush and Necromancers could turn fallen enemies into minions who would add to the team damage/aggro.
This was a game where all roles were viable.
I understand what you're saying, but which class or role is currently not viable in Neverwinter?
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
The problem is that in a skirmish, you KNOW what will happen before you start. So, in the table game, if you don't bring a ranger or rogue, you risk something. If you know that bringing a ranger will lower the damage/make the fight easier/etc, then that defeats the purpose.
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
The problem is that in a skirmish, you KNOW what will happen before you start. So, in the table game, if you don't bring a ranger or rogue, you risk something. If you know that bringing a ranger will lower the damage/make the fight easier/etc, then that defeats the purpose.
Risk vs reward should play into everything.
You wouldn't know the first time. Wouldn't know until you had a ranger in your party or until you heard about it from someone else.
No. I want gear balance. Example in pvp: 4k vs 4k, 3k vs 3k. If that happens class imbalance would suddenly become far less noticeable
You mean queuing PVP by approximate IL? I'm all for it. But boons and everything else would need to be worked into IL. Boons raised Gear Score b4 Mod 6, I really don't know why they changed that.
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
The problem is that in a skirmish, you KNOW what will happen before you start. So, in the table game, if you don't bring a ranger or rogue, you risk something. If you know that bringing a ranger will lower the damage/make the fight easier/etc, then that defeats the purpose.
Risk vs reward should play into everything.
You wouldn't know the first time. Wouldn't know until you had a ranger in your party or until you heard about it from someone else.
Design something that will be a benefit for one time. After that, unless you stay away from the forums, you will hear about it in all CAPS, *maybe* with a spoiler mechanic. Unless they had a queue system whereby you didn't know which content you were going to end up in, that would not work well for long at all.
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
The problem is that in a skirmish, you KNOW what will happen before you start. So, in the table game, if you don't bring a ranger or rogue, you risk something. If you know that bringing a ranger will lower the damage/make the fight easier/etc, then that defeats the purpose.
Risk vs reward should play into everything.
You wouldn't know the first time. Wouldn't know until you had a ranger in your party or until you heard about it from someone else.
Design something that will be a benefit for one time. After that, unless you stay away from the forums, you will hear about it in all CAPS, *maybe* with a spoiler mechanic. Unless they had a queue system whereby you didn't know which content you were going to end up in, that would not work well for long at all.
Well, what if you queued for dungeons and skirmishes randomly by your IL? What if you could private queue parties but you couldn't choose what dungeon or skirmish you went into? But also, even if you could choose, how would making dungeons and skirmishes that were easier with assistance from certain classes be any less fun than what they're doing already?
But forget it. I'm done passing out ideas for free that are probably worth millions of dollars. (Which will most likely be ignored anyway.) I posted several ideas on an MMORPG forum last year, and there is currently a game in development which seems to be using many of them. It's called Chronicles of Elyria by Soulbound Studios.* So, I think I'm done handing out advice without getting paid for it.
*I don't really know if the people making that game read my posts on that forum, I just know I was posting some ideas that are very similar to that game. Sorry if I seemed like I was full of myself.
No. I want gear balance. Example in pvp: 4k vs 4k, 3k vs 3k. If that happens class imbalance would suddenly become far less noticeable
You mean queuing PVP by approximate IL? I'm all for it. But boons and everything else would need to be worked into IL. Boons raised Gear Score b4 Mod 6, I really don't know why they changed that.
They are re-working IL to reflect the actual power of a character. Some of the players on the preview server are reporting IL in the 9k - 11k range.
Lol is there even such thing as a dps class anymore...everything in the game even augments can dps now lmao So they came out with sub categories like HDPS to further divide usefulness. You know MMOs everyone has to be a special snowflake
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
The problem is that in a skirmish, you KNOW what will happen before you start. So, in the table game, if you don't bring a ranger or rogue, you risk something. If you know that bringing a ranger will lower the damage/make the fight easier/etc, then that defeats the purpose.
Risk vs reward should play into everything.
You wouldn't know the first time. Wouldn't know until you had a ranger in your party or until you heard about it from someone else.
Design something that will be a benefit for one time. After that, unless you stay away from the forums, you will hear about it in all CAPS, *maybe* with a spoiler mechanic. Unless they had a queue system whereby you didn't know which content you were going to end up in, that would not work well for long at all.
Well, what if you queued for dungeons and skirmishes randomly by your IL? What if you could private queue parties but you couldn't choose what dungeon or skirmish you went into? But also, even if you could choose, how would making dungeons and skirmishes that were easier with assistance from certain classes be any less fun than what they're doing already?
But forget it. I'm done passing out ideas for free that are probably worth millions of dollars. (Which will most likely be ignored anyway.) I posted several ideas on an MMORPG forum last year, and there is currently a game in development using many of them. It's called Chronicles of Elyria by Soulbound Studios. So, I think I'm done handing out advice without getting paid for it.
Pretty sure your 'million dollar ideas' are safe from being infringed upon.
Sad but true. Either take out Paingiver OR add a section for Buffs/Heals. A lot of players are too concerned about being top DPS instead of fostering teamwork.
As for balance, not gonna happen. How could monetization of the game continue to occur if we didn't have disparity between classes/paths? CW/HR/GF/SW CAN do as much DPS as a tricked out GWF but all of them have either spent time or money or both to get there. Balance the classes too much and you have no incentive for some folks to catch up by paying real money. No money = no more active development.
This game, and most MMOs, are prime examples of capitalism - create and elite "class" and let the money roll in as people try to catch up to what they consider BiS.
HUnters for example gushing wound rewards them buffing ally with extra hit ( gushing wound multiple triggers at same second) counts for hunter damage. THE ranged version longstrider 50% damage buff no credit for hunter.
What if rangers could actually track things? What if there was a skirmish where an orc warband was about to raid a village for example? What if the ranger could find the trail of said warband and help the party catch up to the orcs before they reached the village? What if you got better loot and more diamonds from the skirmish because your party spared the village any damage? You could still do the skirmish without a ranger, but it would be a lot harder to find the completely random trail of the warband through the forest before they assault the village and start burning homes and killing people.
The problem is that in a skirmish, you KNOW what will happen before you start. So, in the table game, if you don't bring a ranger or rogue, you risk something. If you know that bringing a ranger will lower the damage/make the fight easier/etc, then that defeats the purpose.
Risk vs reward should play into everything.
You wouldn't know the first time. Wouldn't know until you had a ranger in your party or until you heard about it from someone else.
Design something that will be a benefit for one time. After that, unless you stay away from the forums, you will hear about it in all CAPS, *maybe* with a spoiler mechanic. Unless they had a queue system whereby you didn't know which content you were going to end up in, that would not work well for long at all.
Well, what if you queued for dungeons and skirmishes randomly by your IL? What if you could private queue parties but you couldn't choose what dungeon or skirmish you went into? But also, even if you could choose, how would making dungeons and skirmishes that were easier with assistance from certain classes be any less fun than what they're doing already?
But forget it. I'm done passing out ideas for free that are probably worth millions of dollars. (Which will most likely be ignored anyway.) I posted several ideas on an MMORPG forum last year, and there is currently a game in development using many of them. It's called Chronicles of Elyria by Soulbound Studios. So, I think I'm done handing out advice without getting paid for it.
Pretty sure your 'million dollar ideas' are safe from being infringed upon.
No. I want gear balance. Example in pvp: 4k vs 4k, 3k vs 3k. If that happens class imbalance would suddenly become far less noticeable
You mean queuing PVP by approximate IL? I'm all for it. But boons and everything else would need to be worked into IL. Boons raised Gear Score b4 Mod 6, I really don't know why they changed that.
They are re-working IL to reflect the actual power of a character. Some of the players on the preview server are reporting IL in the 9k - 11k range.
That's one step in the right direction.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
They are re-working IL to reflect the actual power of a character. Some of the players on the preview server are reporting IL in the 9k - 11k range.
9-11K uh....more like 15-16K.
I cannot find the original post now, but for the average player, NewIL will be close to OldIL*2.85+3000something. The number will be relatively lower for players with no boons and minimal mounts, insignia and companions, but relatively higher for players with a full stable, a good set of companions and those who have put their best enchants on their summoned companions.
The new IL is not perfect (I personally think that a bonding runestone does not give enough points), but it is a big improvement over what we have now, and will give a much better indication of how "powerful" a character is.
Comments
The only reason I post here is because I started playing this again a month or two ago, just because it's the only MMORPG I've encountered that has enjoyable combat. It has potential to be so much better, if certain things were implemented. Seems like it would become a lot more popular and profitable too. If Cryptic actually offered players something different besides good action combat.
Risk vs reward should play into everything.
But forget it. I'm done passing out ideas for free that are probably worth millions of dollars. (Which will most likely be ignored anyway.) I posted several ideas on an MMORPG forum last year, and there is currently a game in development which seems to be using many of them. It's called Chronicles of Elyria by Soulbound Studios.* So, I think I'm done handing out advice without getting paid for it.
*I don't really know if the people making that game read my posts on that forum, I just know I was posting some ideas that are very similar to that game. Sorry if I seemed like I was full of myself.
So they came out with sub categories like HDPS to further divide usefulness.
You know MMOs everyone has to be a special snowflake
I cannot find the original post now, but for the average player, NewIL will be close to OldIL*2.85+3000something. The number will be relatively lower for players with no boons and minimal mounts, insignia and companions, but relatively higher for players with a full stable, a good set of companions and those who have put their best enchants on their summoned companions.
The new IL is not perfect (I personally think that a bonding runestone does not give enough points), but it is a big improvement over what we have now, and will give a much better indication of how "powerful" a character is.